The Instigator
Masterful
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Bitch_Goddess
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Should transsexuals be allowed to use facilities of the opposite sex?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/3/2017 Category: People
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 823 times Debate No: 104266
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (16)
Votes (0)

 

Masterful

Con

-This debate has been funded and backed by the Brotherhood.-

Should transsexuals be allowed to use facilities of the opposite sex?

No new arguments in round 3. Keep it concise. No complaining.
Bitch_Goddess

Pro

There's no reason why they shouldn't.

There are no reported crimes of transsexuals attempting to rape, molest, harm in any physical way, or even have indecent exposure in a public bathroom. Therefore, what problem is there with transsexuals using the bathroom they believe their gender conforms to other than personal opinion?

They go in a bathroom for the sole purpose of relieving themselves, not sexual desire. And there's no evidence (that I could find) that says otherwise.
Debate Round No. 1
Masterful

Con

What exactly do my opponent and I disagree upon?

The issue here is, some guys believe they're women, they then believe that dressing as a woman or even mutilating their penis and turning it into a newly grown man pvssy, makes it okay to hang out in the girls changing rooms. Lets be honest, if a young girl saw the disfigurement that is the tranny fanny, they'd be severely traumatized, it's effectively a penis cut into and sewn in a desperate, sadistic attempt to resemble the female genitalia.
I don't want my daughter to get a face full of man vagina while she her self, is getting naked. However, my opponent seems to foresee a future where this is the norm, my opponent hopes that fully grown, male self-mutilators may share the same facilities as young girls.

The problem with this

The problem is, any policy that allows transsexuals into female toilets, or female locker rooms threatens the privacy of women and children, while providing cover for sex offenders who might want to enter locker rooms to prey on members of the opposite sex.
Of course my opponent in her opening argument, has insisted that transsexuals do not commit sex crimes-

"There are no reported crimes of transsexuals attempting to rape, molest, harm in any physical way, or even have indecent exposure in a public bathroom. "

This is simply untrue, it shows my opponents blinding bias and lack of research.

[1] The respective link gives 5 examples of times when men have dressed in drag in order to gain entry to female changing rooms.
One such example involves a Virginia man who was arrested for peeping on and filming two women and a 5-year-old child in a women's restroom after receiving entry by dressing in drag.

[2] 21 Assaults violating women by trans men. One such case included a man arrested for recording Juvenile Girls in a Target dressing room

[3] An instance of a transsexual commuting a child sex attack.

After providing numerous links to 27 cases where transsexuals have violated women, I think it's quite clear that my opponents claim of "no reported crimes" is not just a case of misinformation, but an obvious bias against the safety and privacy of women and young girls. This is dangerous and should not be allowed to continue.

I present my opponent with one simple question: You know people are upset with trans-men marauding around the female toilets and locker rooms, so why not advocate an additional uni-sex toilet and locker room? This would also provide a facility for fathers to change their young daughters or mothers to change their young sons. This is a fair solution and this way every body wins.

To summarize, my opponent has 3 main points to address.
- Why trans-men should be allowed to violate the privacy of women.
-Ways to prevent perverts and men with mis-intent from abusing a legitimate way of getting into female changing rooms.
-Why we can't just solve this with a simple solution that makes everyone happy and have a uni-sex toilet.

[1] http://www.dailywire.com...#
[2] http://www.trunews.com...
[3] http://www.bristolpost.co.uk...
Bitch_Goddess

Pro

"Lets be honest, if a young girl saw the disfigurement that is the tranny fanny, they'd be severely traumatized, it's effectively a penis cut into and sewn in a desperate, sadistic attempt to resemble the female genitalia."

People who change out in the open should expect eyes. As bad as this sounds, it's your own fault if you catch eyes when changing in an open, public area. And if a girl or woman stares at another's genitalia, they're doing exactly what you are arguing against for transgenders. Why would you stare at another's privates in the first place? If they changed in a stall, the outcome would be different, and the person peeping on the woman or child would, no undoubtedly, be arrested (transsexual bathroom policy in place or not). If your child decides to change in the middle of the damn room where anyone who walks in can see her, it's her own fault for getting eyes thrown at her. However, it's a different story for those who try and assault and rape a girl or woman. Always.

I might also add that you may want to learn the difference between cross-dressing, dressing in drag and being transsexual.

Now let me give you examples of the much cis. men who try and force themselves into bathrooms to assault/rape a woman, not using the transgender bathroom policy:
http://pix11.com...
http://nypost.com...
http://www.fox7austin.com...
https://www.usnews.com...
https://www.thecut.com...

(I can state 27 more if you'd like, perhaps more if you are picky)

"The easiest part to dispense with is the least scientific part " the dangerous man in the girls' bathroom. Transgender people are no more or less likely to be sexual predators than any other people, and a biological male who wanted to cross-dress to gain access to a bathroom not meant for him would have been doing it already " and presumably could continue to do it despite local laws." (The last part has my previous sources to back it)
http://time.com...

"The problem is, any policy that allows transsexuals into female toilets, or female locker rooms threatens the privacy of women and children"
How does it threaten their privacy?
Like my recent quote says, there will always be sexual predators, transsexual or not. The majority of transsexuals do not assault, rape, molest or cause indecent exposure to people in bathrooms. This I know for fact.

'"There are no reported crimes of transsexuals attempting to rape, molest, harm in any physical way, or even have indecent exposure in a public bathroom. '

This is simply untrue, it shows my opponents blinding bias and lack of research."

You are correct, I did not do thorough research. For that, I accept my fault. However, to say I am biased is quite useless information, as both of us are biased in this case. Anyone with beliefs is biased. And you clearly believe that allowing transsexuals into bathrooms that they believe their gender identifies with is dangerous.

"You know people are upset with trans-men marauding around the female toilets and locker rooms, so why not advocate an additional uni-sex toilet and locker room?"
There are unisex bathrooms. However, this would not all-of-a-sudden end the assaults and attacks on women in public restrooms. Trans or not, there will always be people who go into bathrooms to prey on little children.

Many are upset that transsexuals DON'T get to use the bathroom that their identity corresponds with. So just because they are angry, doesn't mean we should conform to their decisions

Sources:
http://www.npr.org...
http://pix11.com...
http://nypost.com...
http://www.fox7austin.com...
https://www.usnews.com...
https://www.thecut.com...
http://time.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Masterful

Con

Rebuttal

"People who change out in the open should expect eyes. As bad as this sounds, it's your own fault if you catch eyes when changing"
Not all locker rooms have stalls where you can hide away and get changed. Some people have no choice and have to change out in the open. During a shower you will be exposed to the gaze of trans-men and indeed, you will see their male genitalia.

"You are correct, I did not do thorough research. For that, I accept my fault."
I respect that.

"Many are upset that transsexuals DON'T get to use the bathroom that their identity corresponds with. So just because they are angry, doesn't mean we should conform to their decisions"
A simple solution would be to advocate uni-sex or 3rd gender changing rooms.

"I might also add that you may want to learn the difference between cross-dressing, dressing in drag and being transsexual."
Considering trans-man are all at various stages of their transformation, some will literally be cross-dressing.

An important source

The respective source shows an incident involving a young female swimming team, and I quote-

[1] "The girls, who range in age from about seven to 18, became concerned after they saw a "bearded individual" in the women's changing room. They are now using the family changing room to change in and out of their swimsuits, but it is not big enough for all 18 girls."

"According to one mother of a swim team member, Ellen Vandevort, her daughter was just leaving the locker room in late April when a person who was bald, with heavy stubble and a towel at waist level, stepped out of the shower.

the individual using the locker room appears to present as a man"wearing swim shorts or trunks to swim, with sideburns going down into a beard" which is partly what alarms the girls and their parents. Staff members have also been warned that asking individuals to prove their gender identity would be discriminatory. "Our hands are tied," the worker said."We can't say anything about it."


[1] http://time.com...

What do we learn from this source?

-The source tells us that not only are "bearded individuals" abusing this new policy, but young females are made to feel uncomfortable to the extent that they are forced out of their own changing rooms.

-Many young females are known to be self-conscious about their own bodies and would feel uncomfortable changing around the opposite sex, even if they do identify as the same gender.
My opponent needs to be more sympathetic towards the sensitivities of young girls, rather than the sensitivities of gender confused men.

-The trans-men allowed into these rooms are at various stages of their transformation, some will have a 9 inch penis, others will have chest hair and beards.
Ultimately, the female changing rooms are no longer female changing rooms, they're humoring female imitators at the expense of young and vulnerable females.

-Women who are against trans-men in their own changing rooms don't have a say in the matter. If they try to speak out, then they're regarded as being discriminatory.

My opponents sources

[A] http://www.fox7austin.com...
[B] http://time.com...

[A] My opponent has given sources regarding assaults by straight white males.
What does that prove? It proves that some men have an agenda of wanting to get into the female changing rooms to do malicious things, and now we're giving them a legal way to enter the female changing rooms. I'd like to thank my opponent for supporting my argument with her source.

[B] My opponent also provides another source which goes on about how in Samoa, they consider trans-men to be a third gender and call them "fa'afafine" this source supports my argument that we need a 3rd changing room, whether it be uni-sex or for trans people.

To conclude

-My opponents argument revolves around being sympathetic towards men who believe they are women. My opponent makes no mention of the impact this has on younger females who do not want biologically born men in the same changing rooms as they are.

-My opponents argument concerning sexual predators, is they will find a way into the female changing rooms regardless of whether we give them legitimate means or not. Which implies that it doesn't matter if it's made easier for them.

These 2 facts tell us my opponent wants to introduce biologically born men into female changing rooms at the expense of a biological females right to their privacy and their right to being safe from sexual predators who will pose as trans-men.

Ultimately, my opponent advocates taking away the rights of females and giving special rights to biologically born men who now say they are female. This is an attack on civil rights disguised as defending "victimized" trans-men. Where will it end?
Bitch_Goddess

Pro

Rebuttals + Arguments:

[A1]
"Not all locker rooms have stalls where you can hide away and get changed. Some people have no choice and have to change out in the open. During a shower you will be exposed to the gaze of trans-men and indeed, you will see their male genitalia."
Interesting. I have never been in a woman's bathroom that has no area for her to change privately. Within every locker room, there's almost always a bathroom area. There is where the stalls would be. And I know for a fact (or at least from my experience) that women's bathrooms do indeed contain stalls that have four walls, covering them completely.
Also, when you say "trans men", that means a woman transitioning to a man. Not the other way around, like the way we are talking about.

[A2]
"A simple solution would be to advocate uni-sex or 3rd gender changing rooms."
Which is what many DO advocate for. However, my argument still stands that just because they are angry, it doesn't mean people will conform to their wanted decisions. Whether the establishment does it on their own or doesn't, there is nothing I could change about that.

[A3]
"Considering trans-man are all at various stages of their transformation, some will literally be cross-dressing."
Yes, but many cross-dressers do not identify as a transsexual. I knew a man who was a gay cross-dresser, and he certainly was not transsexual.
So you are correct that many transsexuals do at first cross-dress, however, not all cross-dressers are transsexual.

--

[B1]
"-The source tells us that not only are "bearded individuals" abusing this new policy, but young females are made to feel uncomfortable to the extent that they are forced out of their own changing rooms."
I, personally, believe that if a transsexual is to enter the bathroom they believe their gender identifies with, they should have some evidence/identification of their transition (and how far into the process they are) or that they were diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Therefore not only preventing many perverts from entering bathrooms using the transsexual bathroom policy but allowing them to affiliate themselves with, as they see, the correct gendered bathroom.

I will address the uncomfortable-ness of young women (girls) in the next paragraph.

[B2]
"-Many young females are known to be self-conscious about their own bodies and would feel uncomfortable changing around the opposite sex, even if they do identify as the same gender."
I would know. I was, at one point, one of those self-conscious girls. This does not help your case, however, because self-conscious girls are self-conscious of their body. Making it not a matter of what gender sees their body, but that they would feel uncomfortable no matter who sees it.
(Story, you may skip as it's not incredibly important, but does address being "sympathetically sensitive to young girls")
At the age of at least 16, I had incredibly huge issues with my body and became very hateful of it. I hated changing in front of anyone and everyone, as it made my anxiety worse and my level of being uncomfortable went increasingly up. It wasn't something that had to do with what gender saw me, it had to do with who saw me in general.

[B3]
"...rather than the sensitivities of gender confused men."
Confused men?
I'm not quite sure if Con properly understands what having gender dysphoria is.
http://www.nhs.uk...
I suggest that my opponent be more sensitive to men and women with gender dysphoria, a medical condition they have no control over.

[B4]
"-The trans-men allowed into these rooms are at various stages of their transformation, some will have a 9 inch penis, others will have chest hair and beards."
Which is why like I said before I believe that they should have some sort of identification that allows the owners of the establishment to see whether or not they really do have gender dysphoria and how far into the process they are. If it is at a point where they do still have genitalia they wish to get rid of (such as a trans-woman with a penis), then they should be permitted to at least go into a stall.

[B5]
"-Women who are against trans-men in their own changing rooms don't have a say in the matter. If they try to speak out, then they're regarded as being discriminatory."
Women who are against trans-women have no say in the matter. If I were to be uncomfortable with racist or homophobic women, does that mean I have the right to kick them out or demand they be removed from the premises? No, of course not.

[A] It proves that there will always be men trying to molest and hurt women in women bathrooms. It doesn't matter if the transsexual bathroom policy is in place or not, those sources prove that even without it, they will violate women's bathrooms to hurt women.

I also add that the denial of the transsexual bathroom policy greatly increased [attempted] suicides when it was put in place.
[1] http://www.newsweek.com...
[2] https://www.hrc.org...
[3] https://www.theatlantic.com...
Both sources 1, 2 and 3 refer to a book that has linked suicidal rates from college campuses before and after the removal of the transsexual bathroom policy.

[B] The "fa'afafine" did not refer to transsexuals, but gay crossdressers. It then goes on to say that no one in that region cared what bathroom they used. And further, it then begins to speak about transsexuals (transgenders) and the point I made.

Concluding statements from my opponent:

"-My opponents argument revolves around being sympathetic towards men who believe they are women. My opponent makes no mention of the impact this has on younger females who do not want biologically born men in the same changing rooms as they are."
See [B2]

"-My opponents argument concerning sexual predators, is they will find a way into the female changing rooms regardless of whether we give them legitimate means or not. Which implies that it doesn't matter if it's made easier for them."
See [B4]

"Ultimately, my opponent advocates taking away the rights of females..."
Taking away the rights of females? Exactly what rights am I advocating to take away?

"...and giving special rights to biologically born men who now say they are female."
Giving rights to trans-women with gender dysphoria. Not "special rights" to people who "now say they are female".

"This is an attack on civil rights disguised as defending 'victimized' trans-men. Where will it end?"
How is it an attack on civil rights?

Conclusion:
My opponent does not explain which rights are being violated and which rights I am so-called "advocating for taking away".
Which would make no sense, as I am a woman and I greatly appreciate my rights.

I have no further arguments other than my rebuttals to Con's arguments and rebuttals.
Debate Round No. 3
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 9 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
Lmao thanks.
Posted by Masterful 9 months ago
Masterful
Fair enough, happy scissoring then.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 9 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
Lol I appreciate your efforts.

And just because something is not beneficial to reproduction does not mean it isn't normal.
"it's a cause of two things: lack of sex/bad sex or drug abuse to the point you don't who the hell you are anymore."
I'd have to disagree. Mainly because I've had a wonderful sex life and I've never done drugs.
Posted by Masterful 9 months ago
Masterful
I apologise if I've offended your lesbianism, but I honestly believe being straight is normal and being gay is abnormal.

It serves no reproductive purpose, it's a cause of two things: lack of sex/bad sex or drug abuse to the point you don't who the hell you are anymore.
Maybe i'm wrong, I haven't looked into the matter.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 9 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
Even if you personally believe that being trans is not "normal", it's still considered disrespectful to say they are not "*someone with a normal sexual identity*"
Posted by Masterful 9 months ago
Masterful
Well I thought I conducted myself in a respectful manner.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 9 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
Cisgender is a word used to describe heterosexual people that their current gender identifies as their birth sex.
There can be heterosexual trans-men and trans-women but they are not cisgender. It isn't a derogatory term.

Also, If we are going to distribute respect, I suggest Masterful uses that same courtesy.
Posted by Masterful 9 months ago
Masterful
I misspoke,

I feel like the word Cisgender is used almost as a derogatory term to describe *someone with a normal sexual identity*
Posted by Masterful 9 months ago
Masterful
I feel like Cisgender is used almost as a derogatory term to describe straight white males.
Posted by Mharman 9 months ago
Mharman
I hate when people say "cisgender".

The correct term is "straight".
No votes have been placed for this debate.