The Instigator
CogitoErgoCogitoSum
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
B23_Black_Dragon
Pro (for)
Winning
25 Points

Should transsexuals have the right to legally change their gender on the birth certificates?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/5/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,448 times Debate No: 4914
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (8)

 

CogitoErgoCogitoSum

Con

The birth certificate is quite literally a "certificate of birth". It is a statement of the conditions under which you were born. No statement is made about ones sexual identity any more than of ones sexual preference, and no more so than any statement about the individuals future plans for surgery.

Dont get me wrong... I respect the transsexuals desire to legally change their gender so that they can be recognized for it. But I dont feel that the birth certificate itself should be changed, altered and re-written. Its like changing a history book. The past is the past is the past and it cannot be changed.

Only the now and the future matter and can be changed... but altering a document about a historic event just provides an opportunity to cite/show evidence to ones gender that is a lie. No, their gender now isnt the lie... but their gender at birth is a bold face lie... an opportunity to lie and deceive others about their birth-gender and their birth-origins.

If transsexuals can change their birth gender (not their "gender", but their "birth-gender")... alter that fundamental document citing their true origins... then I say I ought to be able to change my birth-date and birth-species and birth-location as well. These are all hardened facts about historic truths... but if it is that easy to alter and skew no legal documents or history books should matter.
B23_Black_Dragon

Pro

Have you ever heard of the Intersex Society of North America? (Yes, there does exist such an organization)

According to their (probably slightly) biased numbers, did you know 1 out of every 100 children are born with different degrees of sexual ambiguity and that 10 to 20% of those even require medical surgery to disguise their sexual ambiguity? Yet ... birth certificates don't exactly leave a category for sexually ambiguous, or not sure what sex I belong to ... and so doctors fill it in, with what they feel to be the more accurate choice avaliable.

Anyway the first question here is the accuracy of the "gender they're born with". Transgenders might be born with male genitalia but as I've tried to point out, humans are a little more complex than what high school biology teaches. Although we like to pretend there's this clear dichotomy between males and females, XX and XY, any expert in biology or human physiology would concede that we're much more complicated than such a dichotomy would indicate. If you ask me, a declaration of sex at birth is more like an educated guess than a commandment written in stone, and changing it is more like correcting an educated guess than "changing a history book."

But more important is the second question, the issue of societal impact. Try to put yourself in the shoes of a transgender. I know, a little narrow at the end, and high heels might be uncomfortable for males in the audience ... but I'm sure your imagination is up for the challenge. For your whole life, you've been called a male though you've always thought of yourself as a female. After hideously expensive operation after operation, you finally managed to become the female you've always thought yourself to be. And just as you thought your nightmare was over ... guess what, it isn't. Because on your birth certificate is a permanent stigma designed to ensure that there is no escape. No matter what you do, how hard you try, though no fault of your own, you will always be a transsexual because on your birth certificate is written, "Sex: Male".

In a debate titled "Should" we should never overlook the societal consequences. In this case, my opponent's position binds every American transsexual to a lifetime of persecution, of no escape from the societal stigma attached to the concept. And let's be honest, the hatred of Americans, the detest, is so strong that though there was widespread support for employment protection for gays and lesbians, there was none whatsoever for transsexuals. Let me restate. The people of America believe that employers should have the right to fire an employee, not because of his job performance, or his dedication, but just because he is transgender. And so long as his birth certificate lists his so called "gender at birth" he will always be at risk for job termination. That ladies and gentlemen is the difference between gender and say .... birth-date. One puts a man (or rather woman)'s livelihood at risk in America. The other ... does not.
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Now I know I tend to be verbose so here's the digest for those who hate to read.

1) Gender is more ambiguous than we think and just as gender is not written in stone, why should the hypothesis of a doctor regarding gender be written in stone?

2) Even if transgenders were "born" male, we should keep in mind the social impact. So long as birth certificates remain immutable, transgenders have no protection whatsoever to defend their livelihood in America. What's the harm of allowing them to change their gender at birth? And then compare it to the harm of allowing the continuation of pervasive discrimination against a class of people who simply want the privilege of being recognized as women.
Debate Round No. 1
CogitoErgoCogitoSum

Con

CogitoErgoCogitoSum forfeited this round.
B23_Black_Dragon

Pro

Alrighty, moving right along:

"Dont get me wrong... I respect the transsexuals desire to legally change their gender so that they can be recognized for it."

So let me ask you Cogito, I just want to get a better assessment about the "respect" you have for transsexuals. To you is a transsexual with testes a female or is "he" a male with a mental disorder?

My guess is you've assumed Transsexuals are Males with a mental disorder.
But why can't they be Females with a Physical disorder? Females except instead of being born with a hole, were instead born with a pole?

Might as well throw in a third argument into the mix right? We're so quick to assume Transsexuals are just mentally diseased that we never entertain the notion that they have a physical ailment. And so here, might as well toss this up. Because if so, then the birth certificate, which was drawn up based on their physical state, would be thus an inaccurate depiction.
Debate Round No. 2
CogitoErgoCogitoSum

Con

CogitoErgoCogitoSum forfeited this round.
B23_Black_Dragon

Pro

Anyway, to Recap (since yeah....)

1) The tangible value of granting Transsexuals employment protection outweighs the intangible, and non-existent value of an "accurate" statement of gender at birth. (Since CogitoErgoCogitoSum has not listed ANY tangible or even intangible societal benefits to an "accurate" listing of gender at birth other than an abstract, inappropriate, and irrelevant comparison to changing his birth-species)

2) Instead of males with a mental disease, why can't we consider transgenders as females with a physical disease? The diagnosis at birth of course only examines the physical status, making it perfectly understandable why doctors did not realize that they were dealing with females that have a physical anomaly. But that's no reason to stick with the original diagnosis is it? Why are we so quick to assume that the transgenders are mentally diseased and so unwilling to entertain the notion that they're physically anomalous, or malformed? If they're going to be "sick" either way, why not the latter?

And so for these reasons, what does it matter whether or not you like transsexuals? Letting them change their gender at birth is not going to "destroy" family values or etc. All those in favor? Vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by brian_eggleston 8 years ago
brian_eggleston
I wonder if any bloke has had the operation done just so he (now she) could go in and gawp at all the naked women in the ladies' showers at the swimming baths and when he got turned on he realised there was nothing he could do about it? That would be really frustrating, wouldn't it?
Posted by B23_Black_Dragon 8 years ago
B23_Black_Dragon
MMmmmm and what a long shiny phallus it is =D.
Another reason to like Darth Vader no?
Posted by Zerosmelt 8 years ago
Zerosmelt
are all the other siths as phallic as vader?
b/c if not vader wins hands down.

b23 black dragon, u do realize that ur avatar picture is a phallus holding a phallus, don't you?

I hope ur not homophobic or anything.
Posted by B23_Black_Dragon 8 years ago
B23_Black_Dragon
Lol, there are no cool pictures of other Sith. I go with what I have. Plus in some ways Darth Vader is the monument of Sith power, and it's ability to infiltrate the Jedi, right into the heart.
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
lol I guess that's a no then.
Posted by CiRrO 8 years ago
CiRrO
lol, Darth Vader is your avatar. Pick a true Sith, like Revan, Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos. But plz, not that whinny son of a sith. ^^
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
Much like the rubbish that is dualism.
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
Against. The reasoning put forward by Descartes is inferentially flawed.
Posted by Zerosmelt 8 years ago
Zerosmelt
out of curiosity puck are u in favor or against it?
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
CogitoErgoCogitoSum, would you be interested in a logic debate defending "I think therefore I am"?
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by Alejandro 7 years ago
Alejandro
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Vote Placed by Labrat228 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by brian_eggleston 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by Puck 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by gahbage 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by aaltobartok 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by CP 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by B23_Black_Dragon 8 years ago
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