The Instigator
kohai
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Sottaceti
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points

Should we allow abortion?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Sottaceti
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/31/2011 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,446 times Debate No: 15724
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)

 

kohai

Con

Thanks to whoever accepts this challenge. Best of luck to you.

I believe that abortion is wrong and that it should be stopped. The only time in which abortion should be used is when the mother's life is at risk!

Here are a few of my arguments:
1) The right to life for the fetus is greater than the right of a woman's right to choose for an abortion.
2) In case of rape, the innocent should not be punished. It is the man that should. Instead of aborting the baby, you could choose other options such as adoption. However; with proper medical care, the woman may be prevented from getting pregnant if raped.
3) If the woman did not want the baby in the first place, she should have not had sex or use some type of birth-control.
4) Adoption is always a better option than killing the baby.
5) The fetus does experience pain
6) In cases of a doctor diagnosing the fetus with a disease such as down syndrome, the diagnosis could be wrong. Also, people who have diseases such as down syndrome are just as happy as those without down syndrome. (I know people who have down syndrome and at times work with the community living at school.

I turn it over to pro!
Sottaceti

Pro

You have already lost.

Your argument: Abortion should not be allowed.

Your statement: "The only time in which abortion should be used is when the mother's life is at risk! ('Abortion is allowable in certain circumstances.')"

Now that you've lost, I will argue against you just for the sake of arguing.

1.) A fetus is incapable of thought, so it cannot be judged as a regular human being. Just as minors cannot be tried as adults in the court of law, a fetus cannot be tried as having the cognitive abilities as even an infant.
2.) Some women consider childbearing a punishment. It leaves stretch marks, it's heavy and causes strain on the woman's back, and it is very painful to birth. Granted, there are drugs that can avert this pain, it still leaves permanent marks on the woman and stretching to her vagina.
3.) Your syntax reads '...she should not have had sex or used some type of birth control.' In my semantics, I state that your statements are contradictory. Abstinence is avoidal of birth, and not using birth control is nonavoidance of birth. Your argument, in its own words, cannot stand. But, I will grant you the argument as you intended it. You originally presented the scenario yourself: there is always a possibility of rape when dealing with such uncertainties or general brandings.
4.) According to the Adoption Institute's Fact Sheet of 1998, only 2% of children under 1 year old are adopted. 46% of children from 1-5 are adopted, which is a dramatic increase. However, the chances of adoption decrease thereafter. 37% of children aged 6-10 years are adopted. 11-15 year olds are adopted 14% of the time, and 16-18 year olds are back down to 2%. The chances of the child being adopted are, admittedly, devastating. Only 20.2% of children in Foster Care are adopted. Adoption has an 80% chance of failure.
5.) As said before, the fetus does not have the cognitive abilities of even an infant. It cannot process anything going on, and will only know that it is in pain. If it is killed via vacuum aspiration, it will succumb to death within seconds of the vacuum's entry.
6.) I will allow you this argument, as it is sound. Ignorance breeds bliss, and as long as the child with Down Syndrome is self-sufficient or is paid for by the parents (and not the government) and does not breed, there is no need to kill it prematurely. However, a popular argument is that a parent has an obligation to their children to negate genetic malformation. I cannot make a reasonable argument with this, as I do not know what having Down syndrome is like, but if the child is capable of productivity, then it shouldn't be killed for that reason alone.

I'm looking forward to round two, Con.
Debate Round No. 1
kohai

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate. I wish you the very best of luck.

1a) A fetus is incapable of thought, so it cannot be judged as a regular human being.

This argument fails. We do not know what the fetus is thinking. Also, how do we know that it is incapable of thought? We know that it is able to clinch its fist and move around. We also know that the baby is responding to its environment. So, how do we know for sure that it is incapable of thought?

1b) Just as minors cannot be tried as adults in the court of law

Argument also fails for the major reason that minors have been tried as adults before in the court of law. May I refer you to these pages http://www.vachss.com... http://www.nolo.com...

1c) a fetus cannot be tried as having the cognitive abilities as even an infant.

This does not mean that they are not human and do not have the right to life.

2a) Some women consider childbearing a punishment.

While this is true, this does not mean it is okay to grant the woman a right to kill the fetus. She should have protected herself better or sustained from sex.

2b) It leaves stretch marks, it's heavy and causes strain on the woman's back, and it is very painful to birth. Granted, there are drugs that can avert this pain, it still leaves permanent marks on the woman and stretching to her vagina.

Again, this is true in some cases, however, this still does not make killing a fetus correct.

"As said before, the fetus does not have the cognitive abilities of even an infant. It cannot process anything going on, and will only know that it is in pain. If it is killed via vacuum aspiration, it will succumb to death within seconds of the vacuum's entry.

Again, just because a fetus may not have all of the cognitive abilities that an infant has, this still does not make killing a fetus correct. How does it make it right? It is also painful for the fetus. The fetus does experience pain during an abortion.

"I will allow you this argument, as it is sound. Ignorance breeds bliss, and as long as the child with Down Syndrome is self-sufficient or is paid for by the parents (and not the government) and does not breed, there is no need to kill it prematurely. However, a popular argument is that a parent has an obligation to their children to negate genetic malformation. I cannot make a reasonable argument with this, as I do not know what having Down syndrome is like, but if the child is capable of productivity, then it shouldn't be killed for that reason alone."

No need to discuss any further.

"According to the Adoption Institutes Fact Sheet of 1998, only 2% of children under 1 year old are adopted. 46% of children from 1-5 are adopted, which is a dramatic increase. However, the chances of adoption decrease thereafter. 37% of children aged 6-10 years are adopted. 11-15 year olds are adopted 14% of the time, and 16-18 year olds are back down to 2%. The chances of the child being adopted are, admittedly, devastating. Only 20.2% of children in Foster Care are adopted. Adoption has an 80% chance of failure."

There is always the chance of a 20% success. I was adopted. My mother had a choice on whether or not to abort me or to give me up. Personally, I am glad she chose to allow me to live, even though she gave me up for adoption.
I would also like to say that even though I am adopted, I would rather have been given the right to live, even if it was in an orphanage, then be aborted.

Let me make a few more points.
* The heart starts beating between 18 and 25 days.
* Electrical brainwaves have been recorded at 43 days on an EEG. If the absence of a brainwave indicates death, why will pro-abortionists not accept that the presence of a brainwave is a confirmation of life?
* The brain and all body systems are present by 8 weeks and functioning a month later.
* At 8 weeks, the baby will wake and sleep, make a fist, suck his thumb, and get hiccups.
* At the end of 9 weeks, the baby has his own unique finger prints.
* At 11-12 weeks, the baby is sensitive to heat, touch, light and noise. All body systems are working. He weighs about 28g and is 6-7.5 cm long.
How can this person not be alive? The infant may not have all the cognitive skills that an infant has, but refer to my repeated question, "How does this make abortion right?"

Consider the following scenario: a person kills a pregnant woman. That person is then charged for double murder, the murder of the woman, AND the fetus. How does that make since? After all, a woman can kill a fetus through abortion, and will not get punished. Should that person that killed the pregnant woman get charged with just one murder?

I know that is a gruesome and cruel scenario to think about, but a serious one to think about.

I gladly turn it over to pro.
Sottaceti

Pro

1a.) Fetuses cannot think. Their synapses cannot possibly hold thought. It is a scientifically proven fact. Your argument has failed in retaining its constitution against evidence. As a side note, do you have reflexes you don't think about? Of course you do. Do you instinctively do things without thinking? Of course you do. The key here is: No thinking.
1b.) Their transgressions were heinous enough, and they were old enough. You cannot try a three-year-old for murder.
1c.) Yes, it does. Ergo cogito sum: I think, therefore I am. They cannot think, therefore they are not.

2a.) Say this to a woman who has been raped and you will have a shoe thrown at you. Women are physically much weaker than men. The weakest man in the world could easily decimate the weakest woman in the world, same for the strongest of the two genders.
2b.) It cannot process the pain. Do we lock people up for pinching others? No, we lock them up for emotional damage.

"There is always the chance of a 20% success. I was adopted. My mother had a choice on whether or not to abort me or to give me up. Personally, I am glad she chose to allow me to live, even though she gave me up for adoption.
I would also like to say that even though I am adopted, I would rather have been given the right to live, even if it was in an orphanage, then be aborted"

You would have felt no emotion as a fetus.

"I am glad she chose to allow me to live"

So then we agree it is a matter of choice? Then why are we having this debate.

"How does this make abortion right?"

How does this make abortion wrong.

Scenario: Yes.

Turning over to Con, and may I ask that you wait until the last minute to enter your next argument? On Sunday I'll be leaving for a 4 day hiking trip, and I'd like to continue this without a default. Thanks in advance if you do~
Debate Round No. 2
kohai

Con

I have honored your request and waited until the last day until I posted my argument. "1a.) Fetuses cannot think. Their synapses cannot possibly hold thought. It is a scientifically proved fact. Your argument has failed in retaining its constitution against evidence. As a side note, do you have reflexes you don't think about? Of course you do. Do you instinctively do things without thinking? Of course you do. The key here is: No thinking."I have combined argument 1a and 1c together. However, let me also say that they can respond to their environment and feel pain."1b.) Their transgressions were heinous enough, and they were old enough. You cannot try a three-year-old for murder."I really do not think we need to discuss this any further."1c.) Yes, it does. Ergo cogito sum: I think, therefore I am. They cannot think, therefore they are not."A baby can dream from the 28th week of gestation. I would also recommend you researching a fetuses' senses when they are in the womb. Let me provide some good links for you.http://www.pregnancy.org... (I like this one as it is interactive)http://www.sciencedaily.com... a baby can dream, then we know the brain must be active. That is a scientific fact. There are some serious health risks with abortion as well. For a full list I would recommend this website:http://www.abortionfacts.com... me just list a few bladder Injury your uterus is perforated, your urinary bladder can be perforated, too. This can also cause peritonitis (an inflamed, infected lining of the abdomen) with all of its pain, dangers and necessary repartee surgery bowel Injury your uterus is perforated, your intestines can be perforated, too. This will cause nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, fever, blood in stool, peritonitis (an inflamed, infected lining of the abdomen) and death if not treated quickly enough. A portion of the intestine may have to be taken out, and a temporary or permanent colostomy may be put in your abdomen.
Sottaceti

Pro

Sottaceti forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
kohai

Con

I waited until the last day to post my argument. Unfortunately, my opponent still did not make it back in time. I would like to ask the voters NOT to penalize my opponent for the forfeit. My last argument was not formatted the way I wanted it to be. Also, some of my arguments were cut off. I will take the time to re-post my last argument with the full-detail that was suppose to be there.

"Fetuses cannot think. Their synapses cannot possibly hold thought. It is a scientifically proved fact. Your argument has failed in retaining its constitution against evidence. As a side note, do you have reflexes you don't think about? Of course you do. Do you instinctively do things without thinking? Of course you do. The key here is: No thinking."

Sorry, fetuses do dream, so that means that they can, in fact, think.
http://www.sciencedaily.com...

We do know that fetuses do, in fact, respond to their environment.

"Their transgressions were heinous enough, and they were old enough. You cannot try a three-year-old for murder."

No need to discuss further.

As for rape, with proper medical treatment, a pregnancy can be prevented.. There are serious health risks to abortion as well

http://www.abortionfacts.com...

In fact, pregnancies due to rape are very rare http://www.abortionfacts.com...

"It cannot process the pain. Do we lock people up for pinching others? No, we lock them up for emotional damage."

It can process pain! A fetus can still use its senses. http://www.birthpsychology.com...

In closing, I would also like to say that there are serious emotional-complications to an abortion as well
http://www.americanpregnancy.org...

Please search through each of the websites that I have cited as they provide more info.

I gladly turn it over to pro.

Again for the voters--DO NOT penalize my opponent for the time forfeit. He was away and I understand.
Sottaceti

Pro

Firstly, I thank my opponent sincerely for pleading that I not be penalized for my absence. It was very understanding of you. :)

"Sorry, fetuses do dream, so that means that they can, in fact, think."
Where's your proof?
"http://www.sciencedaily.com...;
Okay, I stand corrected.

"As for rape, with proper medical treatment, a pregnancy can be prevented.. There are serious health risks to abortion as well"
It is too frightening to tell someone you were raped - even a doctor in a preemptive strike to prevent pregnancy. It is embarrassing, and you become filled with shame and despair. I some cases, women never tell a single person in their entire life they were raped. This is due to the trauma, and the inability to trust people easily, which is an effect from that trauma. If they want to wait until they are psychologically ready to tell someone, be it 1 week or 3 months, we should allow her that time.

This is all I have for this round. I gladly turn it back to Con and again thank him for being so understanding.
Debate Round No. 4
kohai

Con

Firstly, I thank my opponent sincerely for pleading that I not be penalized for my absence. It was very understanding of you. :)"

It is not a problem. I understand that you were away and you did not purposfuly forfeit on time.

I am unsure as to why the link did not work for you. What did you mean by, "Okay, I stand corrected."
"It is too frightening to tell someone you were raped - even a doctor in a preemptive strike to prevent pregnancy. It is embarrassing, and you become filled with shame and despair. I some cases, women never tell a single person in their entire life they were raped. This is due to the trauma, and the inability to trust people easily, which is an effect from that trauma. If they want to wait until they are psychologically ready to tell someone, be it 1 week or 3 months, we should allow her that time."

Yes, I agree that it is embarrassing for a woman. I believe we should allow the time to heal from being raped. However, as I have stated, pregnancies due to rape are extremely rare, although they do happen. As for rape, abortion punishes the unborn child who committed no crime; instead, it is the perpetrator who should be punished.

You have not refuted any of my other claims as far as the fetus' senses are concerned.

This is all I have for this round. I gladly turn it back over to pro. Good luck in the final round! :)
Sottaceti

Pro

"I am unsure as to why the link did not work for you. What did you mean by, 'Okay, I stand corrected.'"
You made a bold point, so I jokingly challenged you, and in response you provided proof. It was just how that played out in my mind. The link worked fine, that's why I was unable to rebut. There's just no fighting that point. I cannot possibly argue now that fetuses cannot think, now that you've provided proof.

"Yes, I agree that it is embarrassing for a woman. I believe we should allow the time to heal from being raped. However, as I have stated, pregnancies due to rape are extremely rare, although they do happen. As for rape, abortion punishes the unborn child who committed no crime; instead, it is the perpetrator who should be punished."
And, again, the woman is innocent. She already has a life, and we shouldn't force her to ruin it for another life that has not yet begun.

My final point is simple: It is every American woman's inalienable right to choose whether or not she wants to give birth to an unwanted baby. Who are we to take her right away?
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Sottaceti 5 years ago
Sottaceti
No, the children are unwanted by their parents. May you not forget that 80% of children in the American Foster Care system are never adopted. If they, particularly, were truly wanted, there would be no 1 in 5.
Posted by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
Same here. I would also like to point out in your last argument, you stated the following, "It is every American woman's inalienable right to choose whether or not she wants to give birth to an unwanted baby. Who are we to take her right away?" I shall refute this

Every child is wanted by someone-there is no such thing as an unwanted child.
There is a difference between an unwanted pregnancy and an unwanted child.

Unwanted" describes not a condition of the child but an attitude of adults.

The problem of unwantedness is a good argument for wanting children, but a poor argument for eliminating them.
What is most unfair to "unwanted" children is to kill them.

I am afraid I may have won this.
Posted by Sottaceti 5 years ago
Sottaceti
Alrighty! I'm ready to be voted on! May the best arguments win!
Posted by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
I had a lot more to my last argument. It didnt save for some reason. grr and it was very valuable and a good argument
Posted by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
Not a problem. Haha! Trying to intimidate your opponent, eh?
Good luck to you.
Posted by Sottaceti 5 years ago
Sottaceti
I forgot to mention in my argument, my opening statement was a joke, and was my attempt to point out your contradiction to make you a better debater. I had no intention of instigating any negative feelings within you, so I apologize if I offended at all. If not: no harm, no foul.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
kohaiSottacetiTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con conceded the exception. A fertilized egg first divides into two cells, continues to an undifferentiated sphere, and so forth. It's an abortion at any stage, but the claims of thinking, heart beating, etc were not qualified, making for a confusing debate.
Vote Placed by boredinclass 5 years ago
boredinclass
kohaiSottacetiTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con did not answer the pro argumenent. -Your statement: "The only time in which abortion should be used is when the mother's life is at risk! ('Abortion is allowable in certain circumstances.')"- ANd since you dopped this, I have to give it to con. Also, you dropped that adoption has an 80 chance of failing