The Instigator
Debator456
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
asta
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Should we allow the death penalty?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/23/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 weeks ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 478 times Debate No: 117855
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

Debator456

Con

Who says that we have the right to decides who lives and who dies? Certainly not us. If you are a Christian, You know that only God should decide such things.
If you aren't a Christian, Let me ask you this: Is killing a person intentionally, Murder? If you answered yes, Then vote that the death penalty should go away! Whether the person has murdered somebody or not, It doesn't mean that they should be murdered. It makes you no better than they are.
asta

Pro

Overview:

I personally am an atheist, However I plan on using religious and secular arguments to convince people that the death penalty for murder is justified and moral.

Religious arguments:

https://www. Gotquestions. Org/death-penalty. Html a religious site states that in Genesis 9:6, It states, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, By man shall his blood be shed". This confirms the death penalty (DP) for murder.

My opponent may reference the turn the other cheek verse however, That verse says if someone hits YOU, Turn the other cheek. If someone attacks SOMEONE ELSE, Then it would be an anarchy to just turn the other cheek and if God was an anarchist, The bible's rules would not exist.

My opponent may also state, "Thou shall not kill" as a bible verse that is against the DP. However, This verse varies from translation to translation. Some translations say, "Thou shall not kill", Some translations say, "Thou shall not murder". Only one of these is correct at most. If thou shall not kill is correct, Then we would all have to be vegetarians and god would frown upon meat consumption, Since killing is often required for it. Although I personally am mostly vegan, The bible allows for meat consumption in it's dietary laws. It is therefore "Thou shall not murder" that is the correct version of the commandment.

"You know that only God should decide such things" God has decided it through what he has said in the bible. He says that murderers should be put to death.

Secular arguments:

Speaking of murder, Not all killing is murder. Just some different types of killing are:

-Execution, Killing as a punishment for a crime.
-Murder, Deliberately killing innocent human beings illegally without their consent. Even murder is broken up into varying degrees(https://en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/Murder#Degrees_of_murder)
-Suicide, Deliberately killing one's self
-Abortion. I'm pro life, And you might be, But abortion is a type of killing. It is the deliberate killing of an unborn fetus.
-Manslaughter, Accidentally killing another human being.

A full and more detailed list of the different types of killing can be found at https://en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/List_of_types_of_killing

If there are different types of killing, Then they are not all equally bad. Some of them are neutral or good. Execution is a good type of killing. Murder is a bad type. So equating executioners with murderers is incorrect.

Also, The murder rate of countries with the DP tends to be less then such countries without the DP. Anytime it"s not there are other factors involved.

The Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) has the death penalty while South Africa (SA) does not. The DRC homicide rate is less, Less by about 65% or about 20 per 100, 000. Most countries in Africa have the DP and have a lower homicide rate then SA and SA is one of the only countries that abolished the DP.

While my opponent might say the US has a higher homicide rate then Europe, It is because Americans are inherently more aggressive than Europeans and this makes them more likely to commit crime. The same probably is not true for my above example.

Some of my sources:

1:https://www. Gotquestions. Org/death-penalty. Html
2:https://en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/Murder#Degrees_of_murder
3:https://en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/List_of_types_of_killing
Debate Round No. 1
Debator456

Con

The XIII Amendment states "Excessive bail shall not be required, Nor excessive fines imposed, Nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. "

Don't you believe that taking another life should be labeled "cruel and unusual"?

Since you have used certain Bible verses in your arguments, Here are a few references to the Bible that help my argument. Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death, But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. " Colossians 3:13 says, " Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. "

Forgive as the Lord forgave you. Whether you believe in God or not, He still forgives you. The penance for our sins is death, But God sent his son down from heaven to die on the cross so that we may live. Wouldn't it be rather ungrateful if we took a man's life for killing, Though God has forgiven us for a multitude of sins?

It would be like the parable of the Unmerciful Servant(Matthew 18:21-35). In this parable, A servant owed his master ten thousand bags of gold. The master ordered that the man and his family be sent to jail until he could repay his fines. The servant begged that his master might allow him time to repay his debts. The master agreed and canceled his debt. That same servant then went out and sought his own servant who owed him one hundred silver coins. That servant fell to his knees and also begged for mercy. The servant who owed the ten thousand bags sent the man and his family to prison until he could repay the 100 silver.

Isn't that a giant at of hypocrisy? This is exactly what the death penalty is. God has forgiven us our sins, And then we go and sentence a man (that may or may not be innocent) to death when God has given us the chance for eternal life.

*Also, Most of those Bible verses are from God's old covenant(Old Testament). The New Testament states his new covenant.
asta

Pro

Execution for murder is not unjustifyingly cruel because they murdered to get there nor is it unusual since many states in the US do it. It is therefore neither cruel nor unusual.

Here the bible refers to trivial grievances, Not felonies.

Not all sins are equal. A christian might forgive someone for offending them such as stealing from them. However, A true Christian would not forgive someone for offenses against other people. This would be forgiving something that is not yours to forgive. This would be stealing the right to forgive a certain offence, Since it was not yours to forgive since it primarily hurt someone else. Stealing is against the 10 commandments.

Here you basically say to love the murderer. If this meant to not punish murderers, Then it would be an anarchy. However, You can love somebody and punish them at the same time. Parents do it when punishing their children for bad behavior.

As to your example, It would be more like if someone took 30000 pieces of gold from someone else and you couldn"t repay since you were too poor. In this situation, Since you or anyone else can"t or won"t provide restitution, The person should go to jail for thievery from someone that can"t be restituted for what they lost (unless this person says it"s okay that they lost the money).

You didn"t touch my secular arguments. Can you please state why?
Debate Round No. 2
Debator456

Con

Mark 12:31a states: The second is this: "Love your neighbor as yourself. "

And who is your neighbor, You may ask? Your neighbor is everybody. Even the people who murder. And what does it mean to love your neighbor?

It means showing grace. It means showing compassion. It means forgiveness. And all sins are in fact equal. And they are all punishable by death. Let me ask you this as well: When a man murders another, Does it not affect the whole community? Does it not cause you to feel sadness? If you follow the greatest commandment(Love your neighbor as yourself), Then they have hurt someone you love. Therefore, We are not stealing the right to forgive someone else. Last I checked, If anyone hurt you, No matter how distantly, You can still forgive them.

Yes, We should love the murderer. God loves the murderer, And he loves us. If all sins are equal, Which, They are, Then you should put yourself to death, Just as you do the murderer.

Do you know what the very first act of sin was? Eve disobeyed God, And for it, Death entered the world. Now, As a child, How often did you disobey your parents? Several times I'm sure. Now, If God used the same logic he did then to punish us, We'd all be dead by now. But he doesn't. Instead, He created a new law, Where all can enter heaven, So long as they believe in Jesus Christ and believe that he died on the cross and rose again on the third day.

As to my example, The servant borrowed the money. He was in debt. That's not stealing. People do that literally every day.

Going back up to your statement about how parents punish children for bad behavior. Let me tell you that there is a big difference between punishment and discipline.

Summary from https://articles. Extension. Org/pages/35919/what-is-the-difference-between-discipline-and-punishment:

Discipline is a positive way of teaching children self-control, Confidence, And responsibility. Discipline includes teaching children what is acceptable behavior and what is not. It is a process in which good behavior is rewarded and the child is held accountable for bad behavior, But the consequences are meaningful and related to the behavior in some way.

Punishment is when a child is spanked or hit or shamed, And focuses on past misbehavior and does nothing to improve behavior in the future.

I'll use an example from my life. In the eighth grade, I had my computer taken away from me because I had trouble focusing. Is that a punishment? No, It is not. When I had my computer taken away, It improved my self-control and responsibility. I was held accountable for my bad behavior and the consequence was meaningful and related to the behavior. It did not focus on my past behavior and it improved my focus in the future.

As for the statements, I admit, I slightly forgot about those, So I'll attend to them now.

I did a search on death penalty rates, And I found a rather different website that goes all the way up to 2016. Here are the numbers I collected:
In 2016, States with the death penalty had a murder rate of 5. 63.
States without the death penalty had a murder rate of 4. 49. The difference is 25%.

Also, Our government cannot do anything about the situations in Africa or DRC or Euorope, So I don't know why you'd even bring that up.

And one last thing: Why don't you believe in the Bible?
asta

Pro

This means to treat others the way you would want to be treated. This means that if someone commits murder, Treat them how you would want to be treated if you committed murder, Which might be the death sentence, Depending on who is asked.

"And all sins are in fact equal. And they are all punishable by death. " Not in this secular society. Otherwise, I would deserve to die for not attending church one time on Sunday.

"Let me ask you this as well: When a man murders another, Does it not affect the whole community? " Yes, However, The victim is the most affected since they lost their life. Everyone else just lost someone they knew. People get over murders unless you're the one who got murdered.

You can forgive them for the pain you experienced. But you cannot legally forgive them for the pain others experienced.

Not all sins are equal. Murdering someone is much much worse than skipping Sunday church once or twice. While the punishment may be the same, Murdering 2 people is worse than murdering one. Yet the punishment is the same, The death sentence in most of the USA. God created the ultimate punishment for the most trivial of things because all he cared about in this context was reducing their rate.

He created this law after millions have already died. Does this mean they go to hell and couldn"t accept Jesus Christ?

So there is a difference between punishment and discipline. The government disciplines society by punishing murderers. This helps reduce the murder rate.

Here you compare individual states homicide rate compared to other states. While this is true, It is due to other big boy factors. One of these is the non DP states tend to be richer and this makes the members inside it less likely to commit crime like murder.

I was comparing the DRC and South Africa(SA) to show that SA has a higher homicide rate and they don"t have the DP. Unlike your example, South Africa is richer then the DRC, So you would expect their homicide rate to be less. But it is not. This could be due to SA abolishing the DP while the DRC retained it.

I don"t believe in the bible because the book is not infallible because it contradicts itself many times.
Debate Round No. 3
Debator456

Con

I'm pretty sure 99% of people would not want the death penalty.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that not attending church is a sin. I skip church from time to time and I don't feel the least bit guilty. Why? Because it's not a sin. Perhaps it was in the Old Testament, But in the New Testament, There are new rules; hence the name "New" Testament.

Whether you know the person or not, It doesn't mean it doesn't affect you. I feel hurt every time I hear of a murder and I forgive them because "they know not what they do".

Forgiveness isn't a law. Or legal.

All sins are equal. James 2:10 says, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. "

No. Not everybody went to hell. Just the people that didn't make a sacrifice. But we don't have to do that anymore.

It does not reduce the murder rate. I just gave proof in my earlier argument. Also, Death is not a discipline. When you are dead, Exactly how does that help you change in the future? Right, You can't. Because at that point, You're dead.

Again, DRC and Africa have nothing, I repeat, NOTHING to do with America.

How does the Bible contradict itself(please capitalize the word Bible)?
asta

Pro

"I'm pretty sure 99% of people would not want the death penalty." https://www.washingtonpost.com... states that most people (56% in 2015) favor the death penalty for murder. It"s not a super majority but it is far from just 1% of the population.

I meant you can forgive them for pain you experienced. But you cannot with merit forgive someone for pain that someone else experienced. For example, if someone punches your brother, he can forgive them for it. But would it be right for you to forgive the attacker for a punch that didn"t primarily affect you? Whether or not you forgave the attacker is irrelevant because it"s simply not yours to forgive. Just like if someone murders your brother, what place it it for you to forgive them? It"s simply not your crime to forgive.

If someone attacks YOU, you can forgive them on religious grounds. However, if someone attacks someone else, then it"s not your crime to forgive.

From a religious standpoint, all sins might be equal. From a secular standpoint, telling a white lie isn't as bad as murder, even though they are both sins.

"No. Not everybody went to hell. Just the people that didn't make a sacrifice. But we don't have to do that anymore." I didn"t say everybody went to hell. The NT says that most people will go to hell. This is sad but true. Matthew 7:13"14 states, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few"

"It does not reduce the murder rate." It reduced the murder rate in 2 sample African countries the DRC compared to SA. Why wouldn"t it reduce the murder rate here?

"I just gave proof in my earlier argument." Your "proof" is due to other factors like the fact that the non DP states tend to be richer than the DP states which reduces the crime rate since wealth tends to do that. Less crime tends to mean less murder.

"Also, Death is not a discipline." To society it kindof is because death is scarier than life imprisonment. As a result, it provides more of a deterrent for murder.

"Again, DRC and Africa have nothing, I repeat, NOTHING to do with America." They show what happens when various countries adopt the DP and when similar countries don"t.

The Bible contradicts itself many times. Some samples are here, at the bottom of the spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com...
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by asta 1 week ago
asta
To live anyhow is better then to not live at all. I fear death a lot, So I personally would prefer life imprisonment to getting killed. I assume most murderers would want the same thing. Death is scary.

I'm worried that if murderers were slaves doing government work, Then they might murder other workers (assuming other prisoners are slaves too).
Posted by zhaod1 1 week ago
zhaod1
God gave the government the authority to decide whether or not the death penalty should be allowed. However, The death penalty isn't very good at disciplining its citizens. Jail time forces the criminal to feel pain and dreariness of isolation, So that they would learn their lesson when they come out of jail (if they can even come out). The death penalty, On the other hand, Effectively ends the life of the criminal. The only way for the death penalty to be able to discipline is by the fear of death. Whether or not using the fear of death for discipline is effective is debatable.
I personally believe that criminals should be sent to special concentration camps, Where they are actually forced to work (such as farms), Doing manual labor so that they would be tortured every day while also contributing something to society or repaying their debts. This is what I believe to be both rational and moral.
Posted by asta 3 weeks ago
asta
Vote Pro.
Posted by asta 3 weeks ago
asta
P. S. Sorry for forgetting to capitalize the word "Bible".
Posted by asta 1 month ago
asta
Sorry for DDO messing up the links.
No votes have been placed for this debate.