The Instigator
PrimeLunatic
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
Truth_seeker
Con (against)
Winning
16 Points

Since lust is a sin God cannot be both Omniscient and Omnibenevolent

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Truth_seeker
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/8/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,359 times Debate No: 58678
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (5)

 

PrimeLunatic

Pro

This debate originally was for LifeMeansGodIsGood, but due to the fact he has neither accepted nor denied my request I am leaving it open for anyone who wishes to participate.

These are the criteria for my opponent:

    • He recognizes lust is a sin

    • He recognizes God is all-knowing

    • He recognizes God is all-good


Good luck to my opponent if you accept this challenge and please no swearing or insults.
Truth_seeker

Con

Lust being a sin has nothing to do with the attributes of God. after all, God gave the Ten Commandments.
Debate Round No. 1
PrimeLunatic

Pro

I have used this same argument before and will use it again. I see no reason not to do so.

If I wrongfully lust upon a woman this is considered a sin, but does God know what it feels like for one human to lust after another?

Due to the fact that God is omniscient, he knows everything there is to know, meaning that he does know this feeling. Now if he knows what lust feels like than logically he must have experienced it at some point in time, and, since lust is described as sin, this means that he cannot be omnibenevolent due to his own law.

On the otherhand if he, in fact, does not know what lust feels like he cannot be omniscient.

Truth_seeker

Con

Hebrews 4:15 "This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin."

1. Humans are tempted and sin due to the nature of Adam
2. God is sinless and cannot be tempted

God incarnated himself in the body of a man (Jesus), so he could face temptations, but never sin because he was not under the nature of Adam, but under perfection, so yes, he did experience the feelings of lust.

God feels all human experiences through the person-hood and humanity of Jesus Christ.
Debate Round No. 2
PrimeLunatic

Pro

"God feels all human experiences through the person-hood and humanity of Jesus Christ."

"God is sinless and cannot be tempted"

all-"used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing."

These two statements contradict each other. If God feels all human experiences, regardless if those experiences are felt through Jesus Christ or not, he cannot be sinless and able to resist temptation due to the fact that both of those are a part of human nature. However, if God is sinless and able to resist temptation he would not be able to feel all human experiences since part of the experience of being a human is giving into temptation and committing sin.


"God incarnated himself in the body of a man (Jesus), so he could face temptations, but never sin because he was not under the nature of Adam, but under perfection, so yes, he did experience the feelings of lust."

My opponent has now admitted that God has, in fact, experienced the feelings of lust at one point or another.

[Mathew 5:28]

"But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

If God has experienced lust than with the statement from the passage above, he cannot be 100% omnibenevolent. By the terms own definition, it would not be possible to be even 99.99% omnibenevolent.

Picture a large bucket of 10000 marbles. If you lost even one of those marbles the term 'all' technically would not be applicable.

God is simply 'benevolent'.

Claiming that God is able to sin and get away with it since he made the rule would be the equivalence of a police officer breaking the law then saying it is acceptable simply because he is in a high position of power.

Claiming that God operates outside of logic is simply not acceptable either due to the fact the bible says nothing of this. There is no other source available to back up that claim.

Please make your votes based on the arguments given rather than your own personal feelings and opinions.
Truth_seeker

Con

God understands the consequences of sin and experiences temptation through Jesus Christ, but as i said earlier, he is not under the nature of Adam. The fact that he understands the consequences of sin shows that he is omniscient. He gave the Law and is a perfect being, therefore cannot violate his own character.

Experiencing the feelings of lust does not equal experiencing the sins of lust, there is a difference.

"If God has experienced lust than with the statement from the passage above, he cannot be 100% omnibenevolent. By the terms own definition, it would not be possible to be even 99.99% omnibenevolent. "

God never committed the sin of lust, therefore your argument doesn't apply.

"Claiming that God is able to sin and get away with it since he made the rule would be the equivalence of a police officer breaking the law then saying it is acceptable simply because he is in a high position of power."

God never sinned, he followed his own Law. You can search through the entire Bible and you won't find a single instance in which God broke his own commandments.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by kw7319 2 years ago
kw7319
Good point @arctimes.
Posted by ArcTImes 2 years ago
ArcTImes
Oh, I understand Pro's points now.
@ kw7319 You know when someone else is doing drugs but you don't know how it feels to do drugs. But you are fine, no one thought you were omniscent. I think there is a hole that can be abused tho.
Posted by PrimeLunatic 2 years ago
PrimeLunatic
I'll refute your other points when I have the time.
Posted by PrimeLunatic 2 years ago
PrimeLunatic
I think LifeMeansGodIsGood is confused about the definition of omnibenevolent.

Omnibenevolence-from Latin omni- meaning "all", and benevolent, meaning "good

Omnibenevolence means that God contains no evil.
Posted by kw7319 2 years ago
kw7319
Jesus was tempted, but he never committed sin. You said "If I wrongfully lust upon a woman this is considered a sin, but does God know what it feels like for one human to lust after another? "

God know the motivations of the heart. Just like I don't use drugs, I would know though whenever I see someone is using drugs that he is using drugs. Also, by your logic, you would be saying that in order for someone to know something, they must do it themselves. I have never robbed a bank, but I would know whenever a person is committing armed robbery. But, we can't see the motivations of the heart, but God sees the motivation of the heart just as easily as He can see what we are physically doing.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
you are confused about your feelings. God knows how you feel, but He is not guilty of doing the things you have done. The feeling you are trying to deny is guilt, and God wants you to feel guilty so you can come into agreement with Him about your need for mercy. God wants you to recevie His forgiveness in Jesus Christ His Son. God is offering you eternal life, pleading with you to enter into agreement with Him to receive His forgiveness so He won't have to let you go your own way into the fire of Hell. God the Fahter loves you in the name of God the Son, Jesus Christ, and he wants to give you God the Holy Spirit so Jesus Chrst himself can be your life making you a new creature born of His Spirit.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
It's not God who is refusing to be subject to logic. ........God is trying to reason with you to bring you into agreement with Him. You can't win arguing agasint God.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Jesus was tempted in all points like you, but He never fell into sin. You don't have to experience something to know it is wrong. You don't have to smoke dope to know it's bad. You don't have to let a car run over you to know that it hurts. You don't have to feel the pleasures of sin to know that it is self-destructive.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
God created the genders fro procreation in marriage. All sex outside of marriage is sin, and if you lust in your heart after a woman you are not married to, you are committing adultery in God's sight and He hates it. He loves you but He hates your sin. The fact that He sees you as you really are does not mean He has to be like you to understand you. God knows you are in rebllion against Him, trying to dethrone Him and make yourself God to yourself.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Who said God is omnibenevolent? God hates sin. God will confine all who defy Him to the fire of Hell. Who in the world told you God is supposed to be omnibenevolent? God hates evil and He will execute judgement and punsihment agaisnt it. God takes vengence on His eneimies, He created them and He has the right to punish them for turning against Him.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
PrimeLunaticTruth_seekerTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro misquoted Con's Bible verse, so conduct goes to con. Pro's arguments were illogical, so I was not convinced. Con had a source.. the Bible
Vote Placed by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
PrimeLunaticTruth_seekerTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: If God knows what sin is like then he can't be all good. Spelling typo in the first round.
Vote Placed by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
PrimeLunaticTruth_seekerTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Con backed up his arguments by siting Bible verses, Pro just used basic cause and effect examples, so sources go to CON. Con also used this evidence to prove god couldn't have lusted, Thus he also wins the arguments. spelling and grammar was good overall and both had good conduct.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 2 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
PrimeLunaticTruth_seekerTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro showed experiencing lust is sin, and God cannot commit sins. Con agreed God experiences lust. Ergo, God has sinned. Pick either sin or knowledge, not both.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
PrimeLunaticTruth_seekerTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Con backed up his arguments with Bible verses compared to Pro just using cause and effect logic. The debate was close, but as per Con source God cannot sin.