The Instigator
JesusIsGodForever
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
RonPaulConservative
Pro (for)
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Sinless Perfection (Christian topic)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/19/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 weeks ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 145 times Debate No: 97166
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

JesusIsGodForever

Con

Rules and Format -
This debate is for Christians. Round 1: Should be opening statements, Round 2: Is the rebuttal and Round 3: Is the closing statements.

What is Sinless Perfection?
Sinless Perfection is the Christian idea that we can reach a sinless and perfect state in this lifetime.

My Position -
In this debate I will be against sinless perfection and will argue that we cannot reach a perfect/sinless state.


My Opening Statement -
So as we look throughout the scriptures we see that even people like David and Abraham sinned. We see that David was "a man after Gods heart" but we still see David sinning we Bathsheba. Sadly we are all born into this sinful nature, Jesus gives us a new nature but we struggle with sin everyday. The reason Jesus died is because we couldn't be perfect.

The only person who was sinless was Jesus Christ because he is the Son of God, you cannot find anyone who was sinless other than Jesus.

1 John 1:8 (KJV) - "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

In Gods word we see that only God is good. And according to 1 Jn 1:8 if we say we are without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Many sinless perfectionist deny this scripture. In 2 Timothy 3:16 it says that all scripture is inspired by God. Ultimately at the end of the day, it is God's word that is the ultimate authority.

The only person who was sinless was Jesus Christ because he is the Son of God.

Grace and Peace to all of Gods saints through the Lord Jesus Christ.

References -
https://www.biblegateway.com......
https://www.biblegateway.com......
https://www.biblegateway.com......

You might want to read -
http://www.abideinchrist.com......
http://www.ligonier.org......
http://www.gotquestions.org......
RonPaulConservative

Pro

Alright then, I will be arguing that it is possible for someone to never sin Genesis 4:7 says:
"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
So here the Tanakh says that we can rule over sin.

But now let's take for example a newborn baby that was just born 5 minutes ago- it is in a "perfect sinnless state" since it has never sinned before, how could it? Almost none of us can resist sinning for our whole life, but we can manage to commit no sins whatsoever for 5 minutes.
Debate Round No. 1
JesusIsGodForever

Con

Rebuttal:
So my main argument was that we could not just stop sinning.

My brother here said: "a newborn baby that was just born 5 minutes ago- it is in a "perfect sinnless state"
I wouldn't say that Babies are born sinless, I think it is biblical to say that when we are born we are under Adam and we are born into sin.

Psalm 51:5 (NET) - Look, I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me.

Romans 5:12 (NET) - So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned

Also, I was arguing that once we become Christians, we cannot stop sinning until we are in our glorified bodies. There is no one I know of that was sinless (other than Jesus). So if you can demonstrate someone that was sinless (other than Jesus) then sinless perfection would not be possible.

References/Sources:
http://biblehub.com...
http://biblehub.com...
RonPaulConservative

Pro

First of all, we cannot be 'born into sin due to Adams curse' because Ezekiel 18:19-20 states:
"Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

I don't really know how much clearer it can be; we, decendants of Adam and Eve, do not bear any of their guilt because 'the sons shall not bear the iniquity of their fathers.' Deuteronomy 24:16 states:
"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin."

Jeremiah 3:30 states:
"But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge."
So- your verse from Romans has been completely debunked altogether, now we must address Psalms, which, it turns out, actualy says:
"Behold, with iniquity I was formed, and with sin my mother conceived me."
Only one word was different, but that chnges the entire mning of the verse.
Debate Round No. 2
JesusIsGodForever

Con

Closing Statement:

As much as I respecially my brother in Christ I would like to say, that he has failed to show that we can become sinless in our human life.

1 John 1:8 says it all.

1 John 1:8 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Scripture is very clear, we will not reach a full sinless state until we reach eternal life. Even the Apostle Paul Struggled with sin.

Romans 7:19-20 (ESV) - For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

I will close by quoting Romans.

Romas 3:23 - For all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God.
RonPaulConservative

Pro

But a newborn baby cannot say that it hasn't sinned! It can't talk! I revert to my innitial point; to be sinless, you only have to be in a state wher you have never sinned, which requires you to do something. You cannot be guilty of sin from the moment you exist, you have to have some ammount of time with which to commit it, which means that there is some period of time between spawning into existance and sinnwhere a baby has never sinned, thus, a perfect sinless state.
You cannot say that we were all "born in sin" because Ezekiel 18 clearly states that the righteousness of the righteous is upon him and the wickedness of the wicked is upon him; everyone shall die of their own sins. Myonent is buying into the false parable 'the fathers eat sour grapes and the childdrens teeth are set on edge.'

G-d himself declaired that everyone will die for his own sin; the iniquity of the fathers will NOT be upon the sons, just like the iniquity of Adam is not carried on to us.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by PGA 2 weeks ago
PGA
"no one is perfect and no one is sinless, therefore, no one deserves to go to heaven but pay the price of their sin and go to hell.. but God sent his son (who was blameless) to pay that price on a cross so everyone who believed in god and accepted gods grace would go to heaven." - Cadet

"yeah so no one can achieve a sinless life, THATS a Christian idea" - Cadet

Jesus achieved sinless perfection and as Christians, we are counted alive in Him and dead to sin. He is our substitute. Either He paid the price for all our sin in His death or we still have to pay for some of our sins. Do you not think His death was sufficient for those who believe in Him?

Hebrews 10:14 (AMP)
14 For by the one offering He has perfected forever and completely cleansed those who are being sanctified [bringing each believer to spiritual completion and maturity].

Done deal for those who trust in Him.

He has done what neither the law nor the believer could do by themselves, live a righteous life before God. He lived that life on our behalf, made the believer perfect before God.

Hebrews 7:24-25 (AMP)
24 but, on the other hand, Jesus holds His priesthood permanently and without change, because He lives on forever. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever (completely, perfectly, for eternity) those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede and intervene on their behalf [with God].

Peter
Posted by JesusIsGodForever 2 weeks ago
JesusIsGodForever
I guess I wasn't clear, Sinless Perfection is the idea that once you trust in Christ you can stop sinning.
Posted by RonPaulConservative 2 weeks ago
RonPaulConservative
@cadet212
Ezekiel 18:19-23 says otherwise:
"Yet you say, "Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?" Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?"
Posted by Cadet212 2 weeks ago
Cadet212
sin less perfection is NOT a Christian idea. in fact it is the other way round.
no one is perfect and no one is sinless, therefore, no one deserves to go to heaven but pay the price of their sin and go to hell.. but God sent his son (who was blameless) to pay that price on a cross so everyone who believed in god and accepted gods grace would go to heaven.

yeah so no one can achieve a sinless life, THATS a Christian idea
1 John 1:8-10 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
Posted by JesusIsGodForever 2 weeks ago
JesusIsGodForever
Nanubot - I've engaged with a few "Sinless Perfectionists" and I was seeing if I could find one that was willing to debate.
Posted by Perussi 2 weeks ago
Perussi
Wut god sez, is true. No one can achive it.
Posted by Nanubot 2 weeks ago
Nanubot
I don't think this needs to be debated. We cannot reach as sinless state, as said in the Bible. Nobody can and is clean.
Posted by dsjpk5 2 weeks ago
dsjpk5
Does anyone in Heaven sin?
No votes have been placed for this debate.