The Instigator
sonofzapp
Pro (for)
Losing
19 Points
The Contender
Scyrone
Con (against)
Winning
29 Points

Sith In The Sith era and Old Republic were much stronger then the new sith, and jedi in StarWars.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/27/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,468 times Debate No: 4228
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (11)

 

sonofzapp

Pro

Oaky, If youve played KOTOR I or II and/or have read the Starwars books from the old republic or the sith era, then you should know that the anchiant sith lords such as Darth Reaven, Niulus, Bane, Zannah, and Kopecz were eaisly ten times as powerful as the new sith such as Darth Vader, Sidious, and Count Duku.
Weather it was a matter of lightsaber mastery, or command over the force, any one of the old sith lords could easily do away with Vader, but dont get me wrong, I'm no Vader hater, he's one of my favorite charecters, I just know the truth and I aint afraid to teach it.

I look foreward to hearing your response. :)
Scyrone

Con

Although the Old Sith were amazingly powerful, they were not better. Here are my contentions.

1. Power can corrupt people, especially Sith. Such an example is Darth Nihilus. He could suck the force out of a whole entire planet, and that is one of the most extravagant ways to display power. But although his power was massed, he NEEDED the force to survive. It was his food. If he didn't have the force feeding him, then he would die.

Now you could say the same with Palpatine and his misfortune of looking into the future. But his power was more intellect. He had a back up plan. He had clones. He had his ongoing spirit. He trained secret apprentices. What did Darth Nihilus do? "Let's wander around the galaxy and eat some things. And if something goes wrong? Well, things won't go wrong."

The Sith of the Old were more force powered. The Sith of New was more intellectual and wise. They usually had a back up plan. They usually had a more stable base, and a plan B.

The Jedi were not a people of power, but they always came back to their normal selves again.

2. The lineage of power proves me (CON) to be correct. Bane was an old Sith. He ruled by the Rule of Two. It eventually led up to Palpatine training Maul, then Dooku, then Vader. The Jedi are involved in this. Palpatine was stronger than Bane according till the Rule of Two. Mace Windu could beat Palpatine. Yoda could not. But Yoda could beat Vader, and Obi-Wan could beat Vader. And Vader could beat Mace Windu. Obi-Wan could beat Maul, but Maul could beat Qui-Gon. But Qui-Gon could defeat many federation droids. Aegen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto could not beat Palpatine, but they survived the Arena Battle on Geonosis. So did Ki-Adi Mundi. Yoda could beat Dooku, Anakin and Obi-Wan could not. Luke could beat Vader and vader could beat Palpatine, and Obi-Wan could beat Vader and Vader could beat Obi-Wan.

Now, if we look at this from one general view, we see something that is very clear. Everyone is REALLY, REALLY powerful. And since it all leads back to Palpatine being more powerful than Bane, it is perfectly logical. The Old Sith NEVER had a connection like this. The Old Sith were stagnant. They were not organized. They had never taken over the Republic. They had many opportunities and they came really close many times, but it never happened. Then the New Sith come along and one plan of one dude took over the Republic.

Next round I will rebuttal all my opponents' arguments and make my other claims.
Debate Round No. 1
sonofzapp

Pro

As far as the intelligence goes you are correct, the old sith were not better then the new sith, but thats not what this debate was about. Its about who was the overall most powerful.

Though you are completely correct with the Nhiulus thing in the end Darth Sidious would still fall eaisly at his hands. People like Nhiulus had power that came with a terrible price, they had to forsake their humanity, and become force addicts to live, but as a result they could destroy whole planets with a hand gesture, and make entire suns go nova in a matter of hours. The new sith were flawed because they relied too much on their wits. Where as Darth Vader and Sidious had to build an entire star station the size of a small moon to destroy a planet, Reavan and or Nhiulus could destroy the whole planet with the force. No extremely expinsive death star needed.

On another note, when you said that the old sith were more power driven as opposed to intellect you are severrly mistaken. Bane hinself was the first to note the gigantic flaw in the dark Jedi and root it out. The first sith to support seperatist groups across the galaxy, and the first to cling to the shadows as opposed to attacking his opponant head on. Yes the Palpitine did plant spies, and build an entire army from the shadows to be the downfaall of the jedi, but who do you think first planted those seeds of corruption? Bane. It was even stated in the book that even though the seeds he planted might take generations or even centuries to grow when they did it would be monumental. Everything Sidious, and Vader did and had accomplished was due to the plans and cunning of Darth Bane and his later succesors nearly 1000 years before hand.

Where did you think Sidious retrived his plans? From studying the tactics of Bane and others like him. Where do you believe he required all his sources from? The shadow brokers and spies that Bane had hired cunturies before hand, and Bane would have to truly be one of the most brilliant dark lords for his plan to have still thrived nearly a millenia later. So when you say that the neo Darth Lords are more cunning then the anchiant ones, you are sorely mistaken, for it is due to the actions of the anchiant ones; most notably Bane, that the new sith were able to thrive.

Now on a more force related note, I notice you are comparing the new sith and jedi to each other as opposed to the sith of the old republic or sith era. That is another flaw. For there is not one sith or jedi in the new melinium that could stand up to darth reaven weather he was light or dark.

As I state earlier, yes the neo sith are more cunning but their wits came at the cost of their strong connection to the force. Take for instance Darth Vader. I'm pretty sure u have heard about AND ARE GOING CRAZY OVER STAR WARS: THE FORCE UNLEASHED! This game has direct relevance over the Star Wars universe. In this game Vader finds an apprintace, teaches him the ways of the darkside, and pushes the dark side to the LIMIT! [as they would think, because technically compared to Nhiulus or Traya, they were only at the tip of the iceberg, and the apprintice would only be considerde powerful because everyone else was substantially weakened in the ways of the force] Darth Vader; rather then learn all that he could from his master and then strike him down with his own teachings, would rather train an apprintace and have the both of them take him down together. This is a weakness. A Pethetic flaw in the followers of the darkside.

Rather then destroy Sidious with his own power Vader would have to rely on the power of his apprintace to pull through as well, and if they did succede, then the knowledge that sidious held that was never taught would be lost to oblivion. Unless he kept a hologram of some sort, his knowledge could never be taught to anyone else. By doing this Vader and his apprintice would substatially weaken all the followers of the darkside, because important teachings and knowledge of their way of life would be lost forever. So Vader could never learn these secreats, and niether could anyone else after him. THAT IS WHY THE DARK SIDE HAD BEEN WEAKENED SO MUCH! THAT IS WHY THE OLD SITH LORDS WERE SO MUCH MORE POWERFUL THEN THEIR PREDESESSORS!

Though the new sith lords are far more resourceful and cunning they traded their greatest resource, tool, and weapon; the force, over simple cunning, but in the end all the plotting in te world couldnt save them from certian death. If you were to pit Ajunte Paul, or Tulok Horde, against Darth Vader, Maul, or Sidious, who would win. If we were to just put these old sith in a room with the new sith and give them nothing but their lightsabers and the force, the oldies would take home the gold. Why, its simple really, because all their plotting, and cunning, and deception, wouldnt save them in a real fight, for they would have no resources to fall back on. The old sith wouldnt have made this mistake, not Kreia or Bane.

If you set up a fight between a Kung Fu master, and a person who has studied kung fu, the Kung Fu master will eaisly defeat the Kung Fu scholar. Even though the other guy has all the knowledge of Kung Fu the world contains, this doesnt mean he can fight, or put this knowledge into action. Though he knows all of the figting styles flaws, and imperfections, that doesnt mean he can counter act them, that doesnt mean he can win because though he posseses the knowledge it wont help him win unless he is physically and mentally able to apply it. I believe the old and new sith are tied closely to this metaphore, and if you have any knowledge of the sith past and present, so will you.
Scyrone

Con

Power as defined by dictionary.com:
"1.ability to do or act; capability of doing or accomplishing something.
2.political or national strength: the balance of power in Europe.
3.great or marked ability to do or act; strength; might; force.
4.the possession of control or command over others; authority; ascendancy: power over men's minds.
5.political ascendancy or control in the government of a country, state, etc.: They attained power by overthrowing the legal government.
6.legal ability, capacity, or authority: the power of attorney.
7.delegated authority; authority granted to a person or persons in a particular office or capacity: the powers of the president.
8. document or written statement conferring legal authority.
9. person or thing that possesses or exercises authority or influence.
10. state or nation having international authority or influence: The great powers held an international conference.
11. military or naval force
12.Often, powers. a deity; divinity: the heavenly powers.
13.powers, Theology. an order of angels. Compare angel.
14.Dialect. a large number or amount
15.Physics.
a.work done or energy transferred per unit of time.
b.the time rate of doing work.
16.mechanical energy as distinguished from hand labor
17.a particular form of mechanical or physical energy
18.energy, force, or momentum"
As you can see, power is not only brute strength. Actually, by looking at these definitions we can see it has more to do with intellect and wit than with physical aspects.

"Where as Darth Vader and Sidious had to build an entire star station the size of a small moon to destroy a planet, Reavan and or Nhiulus could destroy the whole planet with the force. No extremely expinsive death star needed."
But they couldn't die of the lack of force. Nihilus was enslaved by his power. Sidious and Vader were not. Revan could not destroy planets with a hand gesture. Actually, he could not destroy planets. And to be honest, Revan was not that strong. How did Revan die? He was knocked out by laser cannons hitting his ship. Revan, the Sith, died. Revan THE JEDI lived on. So as you can see, Nihilus being enslaved and Revan dying because he could not see his Apprentice betraying him caused both their deaths. As for Darth Bane being strong, he wore a sheet of force armor over himself. Without it, he was almost defenseless.

"It was even stated in the book that even though the seeds he planted might take generations or even centuries to grow when they did it would be monumental. Everything Sidious, and Vader did and had accomplished was due to the plans and cunning of Darth Bane and his later succesors nearly 1000 years before hand."
Bane did not plant spies. Bane said one day the Sith would hide in the shadows and take over the Republic. He did not know how or when, but he said one day. Bane did nothing but start the Rule of Two once again. It was Plagueis and Palpatine who created Anakin and then Anakin into Vader. Bane had nothing to do with that. Bane did not foresee the Chosen One. Bane saw a tactic and decided to use it, hoping that it would work in the future. It was Palpatine and Vader who TOOK CONTROL (overpowered) the Jedi and the Republic.

"Where did you think Sidious retrived his plans? From studying the tactics of Bane and others like him. Where do you believe he required all his sources from? The shadow brokers and spies that Bane had hired cunturies before hand, and Bane would have to truly be one of the most brilliant dark lords for his plan to have still thrived nearly a millenia later."
Haha. This is funny considering a miniscule amount of this is barely true. Bane had set things in motion, but he didn't hire spies and brokers centuries before hand. He didn't even know who the future Apprentices would be. He didn't know of the future Jedi. He didn't know of the Clones. He didn't know of Sifo Dyas and Count Dooku. He didn't know of Plagueis. He didn't know of Anakin. Hell, he didn't even know of Jar Jar Binks. He didn't even know of Yoda! All of them were pivotal to the taking of the Republic. Again, Bane set the Ro2 (Rule of Two) in motion, but he didn't have any idea in the future of how it would be carried out.

"Darth Lords are more cunning then the anchiant ones, you are sorely mistaken, for it is due to the actions of the anchiant ones...that the new sith were able to thrive."
The New Sith died 1. The old Sith died a lot. The Old Sith were OLD! They didn't have the practice and experience on Jedi. Most Sith Lords hadn't fought against Jedi. They planned on beating them. And the things that they did do usually ended up being destroyed. Naga Sadow's Massassi warriors were destroyed by Exar Kun so he could live forever only to die by an old farm boy and Jedi. Tulak Hord had died. Ajunta Pall had died. Marka Ragnos was killed by a Jedi, Kun a Jedi, Ajunta Pall a Jedi. Ulic Qel-Droma turned back into Jedi. The Sith of old were stagnant and disorganized, not knowing what to do, and not being able to learn from their mistakes. The New Jedi BEAT DOWN the Yuuzhan Vong. The New NEW Sith took down a Republic once again.

"For there is not one sith or jedi in the new melinium that could stand up to darth reaven weather he was light or dark."

This is from Wookiepedia, paraphrasing Bastila Shan when she had confronted a knocked out Revan:
"After surviving the turbolaser blasts that had rocked through the bridge, Bastila was faced with a choice. Upon regaining her wits, she was confronted with the broken, comatose body of Darth Revan. The Dark Lord was nearly dead—by Bastila's own admission, just a tiny spark of the Force remained alive within him."
Wow, no New Jedi could destroy a dude who passed out and almost DIED because of a turbo laser blast that didn't even hit him directly! *sarcasm* The Millennium Falcon hit Vader's TIE FIGHTER and he survived.

"and pushes the dark side to the LIMIT!"
I disagree. Pushing the dark side to the limit would mean he would have become a figure beyond what Nihilus was. We don't even know if the secret apprentice dies. Nihilus died because of a rogue Jedi, and Revan . . . well we know what happened to him.

"Darth Vader; rather then learn all that he could from his master and then strike him down with his own teachings, would rather train an apprintace and have the both of them take him down together. This is a weakness. A Pethetic flaw in the followers of the darkside."
I believe it was Aleema and Satal and Ulic who all needed each other to take down the Jedi, but that wasnt enough. They needed Kun, who eventually died of a New Jedi. I know it was Xendor who had to gather followers to defeat the Jedi, as did Marka Ragnos, as did Naga Sadow, as did Bane (one follower). It seems that your argument is flawed in that manner.

"the knowledge that sidious held ... would be lost to oblivion. Unless he kept a hologram ... his knowledge could never be taught to anyone else"
Look up the Telos Holocron, Dark Side Compendium, and there were two other books, another third one not completed while he was Sith. These were all part of his knowledge.

"pit Ajunte Paul, or Tulok Horde, against Darth Vader, Maul, or Sidious, who would win."
Seeing that Ajunta Pall used a sword, and that Darth Sidious knew a many a force powers, and knew most Lightsaber Combat forms, Darth Maul knowing forms 2, 4, 5, and 7, and Vader knowing form 5, but being the Chosen One, and Tulak having a single saber and bare any knowledge of the Lightsaber forms themselves, I can see the New Sith clearly winning.

"fight between a Kung Fu master and a person who has studied kung fu, the Kung Fu master will eaisly defeat the Kung Fu learner."
True, but then again Palpatine never FULLY relied on wit, neither did Vader, and Maul didn't either. They combined the two. Where as the Old Sith, except Traya and Bane,relied merely on brute power.
Debate Round No. 2
sonofzapp

Pro

Topic of Debate: Sith In The Sith era and Old Republic were much stronger then the new sith, and jedi in StarWars.

I don't believe you fully understood me on this matter, but when I said the old sith were stronger I ment stronger! Note that I did not use the word "powerful" or "better" in the topic of debate, and that is what I ment. Though the old sith were stronger in the ways of the dark side of the force, the new sith were indeed much more cunning and deceptive, but as I stated earlier when it came right down to it all of their cunning and deception could not save them from the fury of the anchiant ones, for if Sidious was to do an all out duel with Traya for example who would win? Traya would because in the heat of battle the palpatine would not have the time to be patient, cunning nor deceptive. His death star couldnt save him then, but where as he had the ability to use the force to control sevral lightsabers in unison like Traya then perhaps he could succede. Point blank, he could not. Not in his younger years and definately not when he was older. Traya is and was his superior, can you deny this fact?

"As for Darth Bane being strong, he wore a sheet of force armor over himself. Without it, he was almost defenseless.?
Ok first I'll have you know that this is completely inaccurate. Bane did not wear a sheet of force armor, he wore two [which later on multiplied into about onehundred] force absorbing orbalisks that slowly began to envelope his entire body. Though they did grant him a powerful spare reserve of force power, enhanced his physical attributes, supplied him a healing factor and acted as a protective shield, they also housed immesurable drawbacks especially when they were went unfeed. These drawbacks included The almost immpossibilty of ever removing them, cronic pain, muscle spasms, and complete and total loss of senseibility due to the emotion altering chemicals they pumped into the brain to cause the host to ge berserk and mindlessly unleash the force on whatever was near. To say that Bane was not strong even though he bore this burden for over a decade is an incredibally foolish comment.
I also find the "Without it, he was almost defenseless." Part false as well. I respect the fact that you were smart enought to say "almost" but even that is inaccurate. I'm assuming you did not read the books. If you did then you would know of how Bane delt with Skirva, [thought he had help], Quordis and Kopesc; especially Kopecs. Bane was still relatively an amature at this point, and for him to have accomplished all this in so little time is staggering. If this is not proof of his strength then nothing is.

"Bane saw a tactic and decided to use it, hoping that it would work in the future. It was Palpatine and Vader who TOOK CONTROL (overpowered) the Jedi and the Republic."
When you said this can you deny the fact that Sidious was the same way? He saw a tacitic and acted on it as did Bane. Though Bane simply began the rule of two and is not fully credit-worthy of the accomplishments of Vader, Sidious, and his master before him, this does not make him any less brilliant then they. Sidious was no more of a genius then Bane he simply had more opporotunities to exersize his cunning and decption, for example.

Lets say your in highschool, and theres a gigantic science exam going on in class. You are an class-clown, and your teacher knows it so your teacher placed your desk in the front of the classroom right in front of his desk. What your teacher doesn't know is that he accidentally left out the answer key on his desk. While he is doing grades on the computer, facing the opposite direction you snatch up the answer sheet and begin copying. When your done, you place it back on his desk, and no one is the wiser.
Lets say I've gotta seat at the back of the class. Put in your shoes I would have done the exact same thing, the same way and would have gotten an A+ on the test as well, but no. Fate had other planes and it was you who took home the gold. Does this make me any less intellegant, or cunning then yourself? No it does not. The case is the same with Bane and Sidious. Sidious was simply given opporotunities that Bane was not due to the time he lived in, the allies he made, and the high political ranking he achieved. Bane couldn't do that. After the battle of Ruusan and the rumors of the sith still surviving it was too soon for him to act. He simply couldn't take the action that Vader and Sidious had, it wasn't that he was intellectually incapable of it, it was that it simply wasn't the smartest course of action. That is why he lurked in the shadows and waited rather then hiding in plain sight like the palpatine did. [quick question Is Palpatine Sidious's undercover name or his political ranking?]

"The New Sith died 1. The old Sith died a lot. The Old Sith were OLD! They didn't have the practice and experience on Jedi...The Sith of old were stagnant and disorganized, not knowing what to do, and not being able to learn from their mistakes."
Are, no correction werent the jedi the same way. Judging from what you said I could go around saying that jedi were just ungrateful, trecherous, dogs who's allegiance would sway at any moment. Guys like Vader, Jacen Solo, Bastila, and Exar Kun could be proof of this. All jedi, all tratiors at one point or another but do we lable them as such. No.
Also from this biased point of view you make it seem as if all the old sith were idiots, that too is inaccurate. For there were at least some among them who proved this steriotype wrong. Darth Revan, and Traya were perfect examples. They always had a plan predetermined, always had a motive, and a goal to obtain. The only reason they fell from power was due to the actions of those around them such as Malak or Sion. These are the sith steriotypes, the dark fools who linger around for no other reason but to kick a puppy, or torment a baby. They are the reason for the downfall of the sith, and it is due to their actions that the sith were almost always destined to fail.

"Wow, no New Jedi could destroy a dude who passed out and almost DIED because of a turbo laser blast that didn't even hit him directly! *sarcasm* The Millennium Falcon hit Vader's TIE FIGHTER and he survived."
You wanna know what else hit Vader? The only diff is that he didn't get over this one. In case you were unaware, it was Obi Wan's lightsaber. Your saying that the old sith were stagnant and unorganized, well let me tell you something you should already know about Vader. In one of the last scenes of revenge of the sith, Obiwan had jumped onto the high ground while Anakin still stood below.
His words were; Kenobi: "Its over Anakin! I have the highground.
Anakin: You undersetimate the power of the darkside.
Kenobi: Don't try it!
As you know at this point in the story Anakin jumps into the air in attempts to be on equal footing with his master and decapitate him. It didnt work. Rather then force pull him and slash him with his saber when he was close enough, or use the force to lift the lava and fling it at Obi Wan, he decided, like an idiot to take a leap of faith, [or in this case a leap of idiocy] and lost all his limbs due to it. A prideful and ignorant move, on his part, and he lost what little humanity remained of him as a result. Bane or Kun would not have made a crutial mistake such as this, and you mean to tell me that this guy is not only smarter, but stronger then any traditional sith lord! Yeah right.
Oaky dude I'm sorry to say but I'm running out of charecter space. Any minor thing Ive left out I'll make into a comment. As I stated before-hand I'm no Vader hater. In fact he is one of my favorite sith, but he certianly isn't the strongest, or the smartest. When it comes right down to it the truth is that the old sith were more powerful then the sith of the new era. They knew more of ther force and were stronger for it. Any star wars fan could see this plainly.
Scyrone

Con

So if the debate is not about "power" but about "strength" then why did you argue power? "but thats not what this debate was about. Its about who was the overall most powerful."

No matter, here is the definition of "stronger" with almost the same meanings as "power" has: http://dictionary.reference.com...

"they could destroy whole planets with a hand gesture"

This is not known. I am sure that if the Sith of Old could destroy planets with a hand gesture then they would easily conquer the galaxy.

I bring you . . . FORCE STORM :D A power the Old Sith never used.

http://starwars.wikia.com...

"Traya would because in the heat of battle the palpatine would not have the time to be patient, cunning nor deceptive. His death star couldnt save him then, but where as he had the ability to use the force to control sevral lightsabers in unison like Traya then perhaps he could succeed"

Traya was good at healing, draining, and using three lightsabers at once. Palpatine could create Masterful force lightnings and storms, could FLY, could use expert telekinesis, masterful Lightsaber combat arts, see far into the future and play mind games with people, and lastly he could mask the darkside to expertly that nobody knew who he was, even the most greatest of Jedi. I am sure Sidious would win. Although we cannot base it purely on assumptions like you do.

"sheet of force armor"

It was armor, and they helped him use the force better (I think you said ""they did grant him a powerful spare reserve of force power, enhanced his physical attributes, supplied him a healing factor and acted as a protective shield"), so yes it was a sheet of force armor, where the pain can be ignored mostly because of this: "host to ge berserk and mindlessly unleash the force on whatever was near". Most people when in deep mentally isane states tend to not care about pain, such as Vader at the loss of Padme'.

"He saw a tacitic and acted on it as did Bane."

Haha, Sidious CREATED the tactic and acted all around it. He didn't see it.

"him any less brilliant then they"

Yes it does ACCORDING to the Rule of Two.

"Fate had other planes and it was you who took home the gold. Does this make me any less intellegant, or cunning then yourself? No it does not."

Actually yes it does because of one important factor. I was the class clown while you were not. I used my ability to cheat while you decided to be fair and not use it. I created an opportunity for me to be put in the front of the class and I used it. That is why I take home the gold.

"The only reason they fell from power was due to the actions of those around them such as Malak or Sion."

But according to you Traya and Revan always had a plan predetermined? So Revan planned to get knocked unconscious and Traya planned to die? I don't think they were that strong. Darth Revan STILL got knocked out by a laser cannon and Traya was still weak compared to Sidious.

"These are the sith steriotypes, the dark fools who linger around for no other reason but to kick a puppy, or torment a baby. They are the reason for the downfall of the sith, and it is due to their actions that the sith were almost always destined to fail."

Funny how this applies to mostly Sion, Malak, Naga Sadow, Ragnos, and Kaan all of whom are old Sith.

"As you know at this point in the story Anakin jumps into the air in attempts to be on equal footing with his master and decapitate him. It didnt work. Rather then force pull him and slash him with his saber when he was close enough, or use the force to lift the lava and fling it at Obi Wan, he decided, like an idiot to take a leap of faith, [or in this case a leap of idiocy] and lost all his limbs due to it."

Thank you for backing me up on this. It seems you forgot the topic of the debate:

"Sith In The Sith era and Old Republic were much stronger then the new sith, and jedi in StarWars."

You have to say the Sith in the Old Republic and the Sith Era, while MY subject is the New Sith and ALL the Jedi. You just said the new Jedi were powerful than Vader, which makes my argument also right. If Vader had beat Obi-Wan at first, then I would still have my argument backed up. You just trapped yourself in that argument.

"They knew more of ther force and were stronger for it. Any star wars fan could see this plainly."

Wow, I could also say the exact opposite to this and say "Any star wars fan could see this plainly", but it just wouldn't make any sense.

To sum my arguments up, the New Sith and ALL Jedi were better than the Old Sith because of these:
1. Sidious showed equal power as to Nihilus and Naga Sadow and Traya, but he escaped death more than they did many a times. The Rule of Two backs this up (as does the Ro2 back up that Sidious was stronger than Bane).

2. The Jedi overall had constantly beat the Sith of the past and the New Sith, while it was only the New Sith that had taken over the Republic once. This obviously shows that the New Sith and overall amount of Jedi would beat the Old Sith.

3. The New Sith showed power and ability with the force, and with Lightsaber combat. The New Sith also showed an ability to keep themselves secret and to be able to deceive the entire galaxy. The Sith of old had merely relied on the force. That is why they never won fully.

4. The New Sith were not stagnant. The New Sith never fought over power amongst each other. It was always the one true Master, and the one true Apprentice, and when the Apprentice was powerful enough he would kill his Master, thus becoming the Master. That was the Rule of Two, and it worked. The Old Sith kept on killing themselves and slowly beating themselves down with their old philosophy.

Overall, the major flaw in my opponents debate is that he never looked at the Jedi and how the old Sith could beat the Jedi. He focused his arguments on the New Sith. Overall, the Jedi were stronger in most cases (with the exception of that one time Sidious overthrew the Jedi and the Republic). This proves overall that CON is correct in this debate.
Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Oh, and the reason Revan nearly died against those turbo blasters was simply because he was caught off guard. This is the same as Vader tossing Sidious into the reactor and effectively killing him (by movie canon anyway). Usually, his precognition from force sense would kick in, but he was dealing with multiple jedi masters at once (heck, Bastilla who had battle meditation equipped. In fact, I'm willing to bet that resisting the battle meditation would have weakened his senses drastically). Now if he were aware that he was going to be blasted at, he could have just as easily used a powerful force push to deflect the blast fire back to malak and destroy him with ease (actually, he had force storm, so that could have done the trick as well). Furthermore, he probably could have activated force shield or force speed to defend against the blast.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
RFD:

This debate got a little too organized a little too fast, so it was harder to decide what too vote off of.

-PRO made a big mistake in conceding that the new sith were more intelligent than the old (Hello, force mastery requires intelligence, so the old Sith being better force wielders would imply that they were more intelligent. Con probably meant to suggest that they were more strategical, but in any case, I gotta give this to CON).

-PRO never proved that the Old Sith could destroy planets with a hand gesture, thus making CON's claim about this matter more credible. CON wins this point.

- PRO wins the argument on the matter on Bane's strength as well as the matter of Bane originally formulating deceptive tactics that were later on be used by Sidious. Whether or not they were acted out is besides the point. Possessing the ability to do so is good enough in the context of this debate.

- PRO failed to disprove CON's evidence which showed Revan as being overrated.

-The Traya vs Sidious argument is a tie since both sides were simply relying on conjecture.

-(decisive): CON takes advantage of the fact that he merely has to argue that the new sith and JEDI in star wars are superior to the old, thus as CON point out, PRO ended up arguing against his own case.

Thus, even though I strongly disagree with CON (even when considering the resolution's twist), I gotta Vote CON. Good job you two.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
He was plowing Bastilla. :D
Posted by Darth_Grievous_42 8 years ago
Darth_Grievous_42
Really Rezzealaux? So where was he at the time the Battle of Yavin was fought?
Posted by Rezzealaux 8 years ago
Rezzealaux
"Well, one must take into account that they all died somehow."

Revan didn't die.
Posted by sonofzapp 8 years ago
sonofzapp
"I don't know why people are voting without giving a proper explanation why?"

Sycrone is right guys. I'd appreciate it if you'd bote fairly. Don't just vote on who's argument you like better, vote for whoever makes the most sense, and if ya won't do that then at least give an explaination.
Posted by sonofzapp 8 years ago
sonofzapp
"Thank you for backing me up on this. It seems you forgot the topic of the debate:"

lol thats funny, cuz I didn't 4get the topic, (as you had) I was simply trying to appeal to your own argument for you yourself had gotten lost in the debate, and I was right wasn't I. Because you didn't try to argue with what I said, you simply stated how I had gotten off topic. Darth Bane, Traya, Sion, Zannah, and Revan wouldn't have f%ckedup like Vader would they have, and as a result Vader became a shell of his former self. He was no more then a trained attack dog of Sidious's who was on a short leash and never got a bone thrown his way. If you read "STAR WARS: Dark Rise of Darth Vader" then you will see that even Vader said this outright. Had Vader been so smart, and cunning as his Darth title would imply, he wouldn't have fallen into Sidious's trap. Like it said in the book; he would be King of all the empire with Queen Padme at his side, their newborn
child(ren), and his own trained attack dog (aka apprentice) but no! He f@ckedup and ended up with nothing but a scarred and disgusting figure, some metallic limbs that didn't even mesh right with his body, and a screwed up view on life. LITERALLY, that mask messed up his vision, and you mean to tell me that this fabled "MOST POWERFUL OF ALL SITH" really deserves his title. Ha ha I think not, and like I said, I'm no Vader hater, I LOVE the guy, I'm just simple guy with simple facts.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Oh, and the reason they couldn't conquer a whole galaxy is because the jedi stood in their way. Actually, scratch that. The sith have conquered the galaxy many times. If I recall, the force balances itself by allowing the light side to rule for a while and then have the dark side do the same. In this way, you could say that Sidious outwitting the Jedi and creating a new empire for a number of years with Anakin's help was Anakin's way of bringing balance to the force (no sith threat within 1000 years means lack of dark side influence). He did it again when Sidious become too powerful.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
"I bring you . . . FORCE STORM :D A power the Old Sith never used."

Nah, that's not true. You could use it in both KOTOR games. The people who created that source should update it. Not to mention that lowly apprentices could use it as if it was no big deal. Plus, whereas Sidious needs the death star to wipe out a planet, Nihilus could do it on a whim of his own powers.

Anyway, I'll try to get an RFD up after I finish my debate with Zakku kun.
Posted by Darth_Grievous_42 8 years ago
Darth_Grievous_42
Well, one must take into account that they all died somehow. But Plagueis had the force power to stop death, and possibly had the power to create life purely from the Force (some speculate that that being was Anakin). That is a power no other Sith has ever had.
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by BobMarleyIsDead 6 years ago
BobMarleyIsDead
sonofzappScyroneTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Vote Placed by Scyrone 7 years ago
Scyrone
sonofzappScyroneTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by pcmbrown 7 years ago
pcmbrown
sonofzappScyroneTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Riddick 8 years ago
Riddick
sonofzappScyroneTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by LakevilleNorthJT 8 years ago
LakevilleNorthJT
sonofzappScyroneTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
sonofzappScyroneTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by sonofzapp 8 years ago
sonofzapp
sonofzappScyroneTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Rezzealaux 8 years ago
Rezzealaux
sonofzappScyroneTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Spiral 8 years ago
Spiral
sonofzappScyroneTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by LedLegend 8 years ago
LedLegend
sonofzappScyroneTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30