The Instigator
DHDebate
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
RoyLatham
Pro (for)
Winning
49 Points

Skills Gained from debate...

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 9 votes the winner is...
RoyLatham
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/14/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,720 times Debate No: 18757
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (9)

 

DHDebate

Con

Full Resolution: The skill gained through competitive spoken debate are equal in magnitude to the skills gained from competitive online debate.

What I am wanting to argue, is that the abilities one gains through spoken debate are more valuable than those gained from debating online. I as the Con will argue that the skills gained through spoken debate are more valuable, the Pro will argue that either the skills gained from online debate are more valuable, or that they are both equal. The burden in this sense is reciprocal, as both the Pro and the Con have ground that must cover.

I very much so enjoy this site, and I certainly believe there are many debate abilities we can improve by being a member of this site. However I believe that the abilities and skills one can gain through competitive spoken debate (LD, CX, PF, Parli, IPDA, etc...) are greater in magnitude than those gained from debating online.

I won't offer any specific rules. only that semantics are discouraged, and round one is for acceptance only.
RoyLatham

Pro

Thanks to Con for an excellent topic.

I accept the challenge and will support the resolution, "The skill gained through competitive spoken debate are equal in magnitude to the skills gained from competitive online debate." Con will argue that the skills of spoken debate are more value.

While taking the name "Con," Con is proponent of the position that spoken debate is of greater value than written debate, which implies he is assuming the burden of proof. I suggest that the burden of proof be shared, with the debate judged by the preponderance of evidence and arguments.

There is minor semantic issue of what "more valuable" means. Is it greater short term emotional satisfaction? Is it greater ability to solve real-world problems? To avoid arguing semantics, I suggest that each side identify what is claimed to be of value and let readers decide what constitutes overall greater value.
Debate Round No. 1
DHDebate

Con

I'm very sorry, but I've been busy as of late and I haven't had time to write my arguments for this first round.
I'm about to time out, so instead of just forfeiting this round; I ask that my opponent just extend and we can begin the debate in the next round.
RoyLatham

Pro

Passing rather than forfeiting is the right thing to do. A "pass" is not a conduct violation.

I will outline a few points of my case to give you something to chew on.

1. Which is better all depends

Whether verbal or written debate is more valuable depends upon what skills a person values. Since the criteria is undefined the resolution claim that verbal debate is more valuable necessarily fails. The Con case therefore fails.

Verbal debate helps develop public speaking skills. A person may learn to speak clearly without stumbling over words. Written debate helps develop writing skills. A person may learn to write in a clear and direct style. Which skill set is more important depends upon what you might apply the skills learned. If your career is in marketing, verbal skills may be ore important. If your career is in engineering, written skills are probably more important. Without knowing how the skills will be applied, it is impossible to say which is more valuable.

2. Verbal debate emphasizes performance art

There are valid and important verbal debate skills, but a person can get away with tricks and logical fallacies that would not survive the patient analysis of a written debate.

Verbal debate does not allow for research to be done during the debate. That means that ere is a premium on unusual cases and strange claims for which the opposition is not prepared. A verbal debater may believe something true and present it with some dubious reference that cannot be checked during the debate. for example, false 9/11 Truther claims abound in that category, claims like "no wreckage of flight 93 was ever found" when in fact nearly all of it was recovered. The more fanciful the claims, the more tedious the checking.

In verbal debate the same topic is debated repeatedly. Packaged research can be bought or shared, so the debater does not have to develop research skills at all. Written debate requires original research, and that skill is important to all decision making.

Humor and cheerfulness count for a lot in a verbal debate, but have no bearing on the facts. They count in written debates too, but not so much. The idea is to get the audience to accept what you say on the grounds that such person is less likely to be devious. That's not true, but the trick often works. If your business depends upon factual analysis, then written debate is better. However, if your business depends upon perceived cheerfulness --perhaps entertainment or politics-- then perhaps verbal debate is better.

A verbal debater can load the debate with dozens of short claims that are difficult to refute in a short time. Jesse Jackson is a master of this style of overloaded speaking, coupled with other tricks of verbal presentation. Consider this account of Jackson's speaking:

" Jesse Jackson is one of the most verbally convincing speakers I know. Whenever he speaks, it seems to draw me in, and make me believe everything he touches on. His looks are intimidating along with his piercing eyes and strong southern accent. If he’s serious about something, the audience knows it. If he’s praising someone, the audience will be well informed of why this person deserves such gratitude. If he’s happy or concerned, the audience will also be aware" http://www.exampleessays.com...

So, is what Jackson says true? The essay doesn't say and the essayist doesn't care. The performance is impressive. Verbal debate includes the triumph of style over substance. that's not necessarily bad,but it's often bad, and it's certainly a difference from written debate.

For people whose business is not performance art, which I think is the future of most debaters, the analysis, research, and written skills are more important, so for them written debate is more valuable.

So now it's Con's turn to define "more valuable," and why he thinks definition is objective.
Debate Round No. 2
DHDebate

Con

DHDebate forfeited this round.
RoyLatham

Pro

My opponent passed R2 and forfeited R3. Forfeiting is a conduct violation. Besides that, there is nothing that takes the life out of a debate like having one of the debaters fail to show up. Still, this is a five round debate, so Con still has time to make a case.

1. Which is better all depends

Whether verbal or written debate is more valuable depends upon what skills a person values. In R1, my opponent claimed "the abilities one gains through spoken debate are more valuable than those gained from debating online." He provided no definition or way to measure of "value" in his challenge, and that is fatal to any case he may ultimately pres. If what one values is, say, overcoming fear of public speaking, then spoken debate will valuable. But if one finds the ability to write clearly more important, then written debate will be more valuable. It is ultimately impossible to prove one better than the other.

2. Verbal debate emphasizes performance art

Recall the description by an admirer of Jesse Jackson's speaking skills, "Whenever he speaks, it seems to draw me in, and make me believe everything he touches on. His looks are intimidating along with his piercing eyes and strong southern accent. If he’s serious about something, the audience knows it. If he’s praising someone, the audience will be well informed of why this person deserves such gratitude. If he’s happy or concerned, the audience will also be aware"

Those are valuable skills for preachers and politicians, but not so much for most people.

3. Written debate requires original research

Comparing verbal academic debate in the 1990s compared to the 1960s, Prof. Robert Greenstreet finds

" ...debating today is wholly different due to the tremendous proliferation of summer institutes and pre-season analysis clinics, and the widespread acceptance of and reliance on handbooks, externally prepared briefs and cases, and prepackaged evidence."
National Forensic Journal http://www.nationalforensics.org...

The professor goes on to say,"while most contemporary debate texts claim study of and/ or experience in debate enhances the critical thinking skills of practitioners, little empirical evidence exists in support of that claim."

In verbal academic debate as practiced, both the evidence and the arguments are so heavy prepackaged that the primary skills developed are performance skills. Of course, verbal debats are not entirely scripted, and the induction of cross-examination promotes analysis. Still, verbal debates are much more about performance than written debates.

I contended in (2) that while performance skills are valuable to some people, they are not valuable to most people. However, written debate covers a great variety of topics. Debating the topics requires original research to obtain the relevant facts, and original critical thinking to develop the arguments.

Research and critical thinking skills developed by written debate are important to everyone. As voters, people must assess the truth of politicians claims and try to past the politicians' performance art. As consumers, people doll to assess important purchases critically. Those with as interest in debate of any kind tend to go into intellectual work careers. the ability to research and critically evaluate apply to virtually any intellectual pursuit.

While there s no way to tell with certainty what skills will be valuable to a particular person, it's like that for debaters analytical skills will be more important than performance art.
Debate Round No. 3
DHDebate

Con

I'm incredibly sorry for my forfeit as of last round.

I am not able to finish this debate, I'm sorry but I have to forfeit.
Thank you so much Roy, and again, I'm sorry.

If you're up to it, I may re-challenge you again in a few weeks.
RoyLatham

Pro

Okay, it's a washout.
Debate Round No. 4
DHDebate

Con

I guess it's a bit ironic that I've not had the time to sit down and write out an argument until the last round when I've already forfeited. I'm not going to try and make an argument here, I would instead like to express my deepest regrets at having wasted my opponent's time, and effort. This is legitimately a debate I want to have, and I've long wanted to debate my opponent. This flop that is this round is completely and utterly my fault due to my failure to appropriately manage my time.

In short, being a senior sucks and dual credit classes are hard. What free time I have had, I've had to use to work on research, and cutting cards for my actual debate rounds. My town, (Gilmer, Texas) celebrated our yearly yestival this week (appropiately name the Yamboree) which sucked a large chunk of my time up, and to top it all off I had to waste my Sunday watching football with a bunch of people playing games on their iPhones. They wheren't even paying attention, but wouldn't even let me change the channel to The Nightmare Before Christmas!

The prior bit isn't a plea for pity, or votes; I've been a sincerely poor opponent in this debate and Roy deserves every single point and then some. Moreso this is just me venting a bit at how crappy this past week has been for me, and how dissapointed I am for not getting the chance to debate Roy on such a great topic.

Again, and in Conclusion;
+ I'm sorry I've wasted this round, and your time Roy.
+ Being a High School senior sucks both your time and energy.
+ The Yamboree is over-rated, and there where no vendors selling Fried Pickles this year.
+ I hate cutting cards.
RoyLatham

Pro

Oh well, there are many debates, but very few yam festvals.

To give this debate ending value, I quote the Yamboree web site: http://www.yamboree.com...

Sweet Potato Pie Recipe
  • 1 unbaked pie crust, recipe follows*
  • 1 1/2 cups cooked, peeled and mashed sweet potatoes
  • 1 heaping teaspoon all-purpose flour
  • 1 cup milk (canned, half and half, cream or whole milk)
  • 1 cup sugar
  • 3 egg yolks
  • 2 tablespoons margarine, melted
Directions

Preheat oven to 350 degrees F.

Roll out 1 pie crust and place it in a pie plate. Mix all of the remaining ingredients together and pour into the unbaked pie crust. Bake for 45 minutes or until pie is firm. Allow to cool completely.


Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by GaryBacon 5 years ago
GaryBacon
It would've been funny if Con used his forfeits to make a point.

E.g. in a live speaking debate, the opponent can't simply skip rounds like on debate.org
Posted by DHDebate 5 years ago
DHDebate
Thanks Roy! I have a few days off starting Mid-Wednesday, so I'll post my arguments then.
Posted by DHDebate 5 years ago
DHDebate
F-16, Roy-
I don't care either way. I love debating here on DDO, and I love what I learn, but the win/loss deal doesn't interest me much. That said, I do have my moments where winning is important to me, but they usually pass pretty quickly.

Molzhan-
No, it doesn't. You're making the possible ground of this debate far to limited. We're not trying to discuss a question of worth of each style; we're debating on which style can provide the greatest benefits. Accordingly you're not even framing your illustration correctly. It should be "Which will bring about the greatest benefits; A tank or a healer." Even then, tanks and healers aren't in direct conflict with one another; they're not the same thing. Spoken debate, and Internet debates are in direct conflict with one another; they are the same thing, debate. So a question of which one will provide it's competitor the greatest benefit is a perfectly viable one.

You could even go so far as to have this same debate among various different styles of spoken debate, as with different styles of spoken debate you learn to do different things.
Posted by Molzahn 5 years ago
Molzahn
Which one is better in an MMORPG, a tank or a healer? It depends on the situation. Likewise for debate styles.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
F-16, Quite right. It's just better to close the things out and get on with something new.
Posted by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 5 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
"People sometimes vote bomb old debates."

They also sometimes vote legitimately with good intentions but the debaters just assume that they are votebombing and hold a grudge against them. But either way, it is not good.
Posted by DHDebate 5 years ago
DHDebate
Guys, please realize that this debate is one of weighing the positive impacts of both different styles of debate and determining which one is a greater benefit as a person. I realize that these are two different things, and I realize you gain different skills from each, but what I am wanting to debate is the validity of skills gained by each style.

Also I'd love to debate you Roy! I'll change the voting time and make it a direct challenge to you.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
I would accept this debate if the voting period is changed from "indefinite" to something between one and three months. People sometimes vote bomb old debates.
Posted by Molzahn 5 years ago
Molzahn
Written debate and spoken debate practice different parts of your brain. They are equal in their own right.
Posted by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 5 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Interesting topic. I think both are different but equal. If you work in an occupation where written skills are highly valued, the best training you can get is to have your written arguments and logic taken apart by top member on DDO. If however, you work in a position where you need to convince people to buy stuff for instance, then yes, there is no substitute for spoken debate.

I can defend a resolution that they are separate but equal. If it is still available after a few days, I might take it.
9 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
DHDebateRoyLathamTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pretty obvious. DHDebate failed to participate in the debate at all, citing his experience as a high-school senior and the contemporary Yamboree festival, while Roy not only noted that the lack of a criteria and definition of "value" for each type of debate was harmful to Con's case but listed the different values and skills for both the verbal and written debate that made such an assessment of value difficult.
Vote Placed by renji_abarai 5 years ago
renji_abarai
DHDebateRoyLathamTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro has done a good jpb with each category even though I agree with Con.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
DHDebateRoyLathamTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: DoI have to say something
Vote Placed by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
DHDebateRoyLathamTied
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Total points awarded:16 
Reasons for voting decision: mercy point :P
Vote Placed by bluesteel 5 years ago
bluesteel
DHDebateRoyLathamTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: mmmm, sweet potato pie
Vote Placed by Mirza 5 years ago
Mirza
DHDebateRoyLathamTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Con had to prove that verbal debates are more valuable than written debates. Pro successfully showed that it depends on what the individual benefits best from. Con has not met the burden of proof. Pro used sources, Con did not. I'd give a conduct vote to Pro, but I think a pass is legitimate and not ill-intended. Overall, I hoped for more of a debate, but Pro did a good job.
Vote Placed by GaryBacon 5 years ago
GaryBacon
DHDebateRoyLathamTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeited.
Vote Placed by jm_notguilty 5 years ago
jm_notguilty
DHDebateRoyLathamTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: CON never really debated.
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 5 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
DHDebateRoyLathamTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: 1st round - intro, 2nd round - con passes, 3rd round - con forfeits, 4th round - con says that he will forfiet. 5th round - con apologizes for the wasted round. Awesome debate. I'll give 5 points to pro. I however will say that con has chosen a great topic to debate and I look forward to seeing him debate it.