The Instigator
AndyHood
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
blackkid
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points

Slavery is never actually suggested, supported, or otherwise condoned in a positive manner by Yahweh

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
blackkid
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/19/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 431 times Debate No: 75514
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (3)

 

AndyHood

Con

I've created this debate based on a quotation given by my opponent in an opinion. I'd like to see if they can justify their comment.

We can start with direct commandments about slavery:

Leviticus 25:44-46

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life

Exodus 21:20-21
Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

1 Peter 2:18-20
Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

Or we can look to indirect commandments about war that mention slavery:

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.
12
If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.
13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

So basically: ask people if they'd like to be your slaves... if not, kill the men and take the women and children as slaves.

Or you could look to Numbers 31... God instructs Israel to take vengeance and kill kill kill. They did this, but spared the women and children (read "took them as slaves", rather than "spared"). Anyway, that shizzle was not effed up enough for God and Moses, who demanded that they kill ALL the people including young boys EXCEPT the young virgin girls... wouldn't want to waste those tasty young virgins, eh? What do you think they became in the story? Bloody sex slaves is what. The bible is a filthy and vile steaming pile of dirty dung that portrays a sadistic monster called Yahweh who loves slavery, torture, rape and genocide. Get over it. If you want moral instruction, don't take it from some Bronze Age peasants in the Middle East!
blackkid

Pro

As Con I will not "add" sources; I will explain sources that Pro provides while upholding the claim required.

The Statement is: "Slavery is never actually suggested, supported, or otherwise condoned in a positive manner by Yahweh."

[ Leviticus 25:44-46
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life

Exodus 21:20-21
Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. ]

These two Bible verses fail to meet the claim; in no way is Yahweh actually supporting, suggesting, or condoning the action. Instead these are regulations relating to a behavior that, unless Pro provides for, was not of Yahweh's direct suggestion or order.

[ 1 Peter 2:18-20
Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. ]

This is a verse about conduct of slaves as Christians and against has nothing to do with the will, condoning, or validation of their treatment by Yahweh. The three previous versus have all been about conduct and regulation rather than approval in any sense of the word.

[ Deuteronomy 20:10-14 ]

10When you approach a city to wage war against it, you shall propose peace to it. יכִּי תִקְרַב אֶל עִיר לְהִלָּחֵם עָלֶיהָ וְקָרָאתָ אֵלֶיהָ לְשָׁלוֹם:

11And it will be, if it responds to you with peace, and it opens up to you, then it will be, [that] all the people found therein shall become tributary to you, and they shall serve you.יאוְהָיָה אִם שָׁלוֹם תַּעַנְךָ וּפָתְחָה לָךְ וְהָיָה כָּל הָעָם הַנִּמְצָא בָהּ יִהְיוּ לְךָ לָמַס וַעֲבָדוּךָ

( http://www.chabad.org... )

Relative to the Torah they were the nation was effectively taken as, versus slaves in the traditional sense, the modern equivalent of subsidiaries or for better understanding "war spoils". It's a hostile take-over as all of Deut. 20 is specifically on waging war; the proposal of a treaty with the terms of total surrender would not be equivalent to slavery but since there are no words that translate well into English it is fundamentally a matter of language versus that of actual context.

[ Numbers 31 ]

The Nation of Israel disobeyed God's orders for extermination. Moses was livid with Israel for this disobedience and gave the order that you are talking about:

[ 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army"the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds"who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. ]

Yahweh did not.
Debate Round No. 1
AndyHood

Con

Okay, I'm gonna call you on this one:

Who is claimed to be doing the talking in Exodus 21? How about Exodus 20?

The context goes a little something like this:

Exodus 20:
The title is "The Ten Commandments" (that's an important bit, right?)
God spoke all these words: (you don't argue with that verse, right? Exodus 20:1 is quite clear).
"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery" (Exodus 20:2 is even clearer)
"You shall have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3 is clear as day: "me" cannot be misinterpreted)

Exodus 20:4-6 are pretty clear:
4 "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."
5 "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,"
6 "but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Okay, that doesn't sound terribly moral to me, punishing children, grandchildren, great grandchildren and great great grandchildren for their ancestor's transgressions... notice that you have 16 great great grandparents... you'd better pray that none of them offended Yahweh, ey?

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."

Cor, He does go on, doesn't He?

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he restedon the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Ahhh.. this is the NIV... I wonder what the original text said... what word was in the original text that is often translated "servant", sometimes "slave", sometimes "bondswoman" and so on and so forth... we need some biblical authority here and they had better understand Hebrew well... let's start with http://biblehub.com....

Then we can follow the two words used and see them using the concordance in other contexts:
http://biblehub.com...
http://biblehub.com...

Yup, Pro dodges a bullet there (for the moment, breath a sigh of relief!)... this could well be argued to not be talking directly against slavery... moot point... let's move on through the text, though, there's so much more:

I'll jump a little...

20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."
21
The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.

24 “‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’

Who would have thought that YHWH, Elohim, Adonai, the LORD God, the Father, would be such a prude!

Anyhow, here we come to the real crux of the matter... the very next words in the bible (after this crucial scene where God gives the Ten Commandments to Moses) is this, from Exodus 21:

1 “These are the laws you are to set before them:
Hebrew Servants

And jumping a little (with no change of context):

Personal Injuries

12 “Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.13 However, if it is not done intentionally, but God lets it happen, they are to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if anyone schemes and kills someone deliberately, that person is to be taken from my altar and put to death.

15 “Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death.

16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

17 “Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.

18 “If people quarrel and one person hits another with a stone or with their fist[d]and the victim does not die but is confined to bed, 19 the one who struck the blow will not be held liable if the other can get up and walk around outside with a staff; however, the guilty party must pay the injured person for any loss of time and see that the victim is completely healed.

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

26 “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.


Now, only two questions need be asked to finally resolve this debate:

1 - Who was speaking throughout Exodus 20 and Exodus 21? Was it Yahweh?
2 - What is the Hebrew used for "slave" (and does that even matter since verse 20 is talking about being allowed to BEAT them, and about OWNING them)?

I challenge my opponent to make the case that Yahweh was not as close to directly speaking to the reader through the bible as it is ever possible to get... and I challenge my opponent with the following analysis of the original Hebrew (and the obvious context in the verse):

http://biblehub.com...;
http://biblehub.com...
http://biblehub.com...

We see the word "slave" used more frequently as an appropriate translation... and, of course, this makes sense with the context of the qualifying phrase "since the slave is their property"... I direct the gentle reader to some definitions of the word "slave":

Google: (especially in the past) a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
Dictionary.reference.com: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bondservant.
OxfordDictionaries.com: (Especially in the past) a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them:

I suggest that Exodus 21:20 is proof positive that Yahweh is said to, at the very least, condone slavery. Indeed, this Yahweh character lays down this rule that slave owners should be guiltless and blameless for beating their slaves nearly to death in a run that follows on from His famous "Ten Commandment" act. I'd say that this was good evidence that He thought it very important to make sure that slave owners were allowed to beat theirs slaves... rather than taking the opportunity to say something truly wise such as, oh, I don't know, "Thou shalt not own slaves"? Clearly Yahweh really does positively approve of slavery, would you not agree?

blackkid

Pro

Exodus 20 says nothing on slavery being allowable or supported. Non-sequitur.

Con admits to failing to prove his claim.

Con fails to stick to the claim that Yahweh asserts slavery as a condonable action and again makes clear note that the matter is instead regulated by Yahweh (which is an implicit argument of acceptance and therefore unacceptable) as a matter of sociological behavior.

Ultimately the claim is still unproven even at the end.
Debate Round No. 2
AndyHood

Con

AndyHood forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
AndyHood

Con

AndyHood forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
AndyHood

Con

AndyHood forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by blackkid 2 years ago
blackkid
This stuff always attracts fools and nutjobs, I swear.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 2 years ago
TheWORDisLIFE
The real Israelites went into slavery for breaking the commandments of The Most High God. The Most High is not letting the other nations that enslaved the so called "African-Americans, Latinos, Native Americans" get away with what they have done and continue to do to us. They to will be enslaved when Christ returns Revelation 13:10.
Posted by AndyHood 2 years ago
AndyHood
Ah, but am I losing because I am wrong or because my voters are delusional and cannot weigh the evidence before them rationally? It's an important question to ask and to answer...
Posted by blackkid 2 years ago
blackkid
I'd have to find it myself.

Looking at your profile I see that the ones you've lost are mostly of this nature. Perhaps this would be a challenge for you since I need to lower my win ratio and ELO score anyway.

Let us commence.
Posted by AndyHood 2 years ago
AndyHood
Okay; would you mind linking me to it?
Posted by blackkid 2 years ago
blackkid
Mhm. Take your time. Now that I think of it though I've had two accounts on this website; it's not under this account and was over eight months ago.
Posted by AndyHood 2 years ago
AndyHood
Give me a while to find and digest that debate and probably ask you a question
Posted by blackkid 2 years ago
blackkid
I've already done this and won months ago. I'm debating whether I really want to do it again or not...
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by tejretics 1 year ago
tejretics
AndyHoodblackkidTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: FF.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
AndyHoodblackkidTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
AndyHoodblackkidTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Ff