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Smash Melee(pro) vs. Smash 4(con) [Competitive play]

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/4/2016 Category: Games
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 474 times Debate No: 84533
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
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Welcome to a fun topic/debate.

R1: Acceptance
R2: Arguments
R3: Rebuttals/Conclusions.


I accept.
Debate Round No. 1


Thank you for accepting and Good Luck.

I would like to start by comparing certain aspects of the games from a competitive standpoint.
1. Scene Longevity- While Smash 4 may still be growing as a community melee is a tried and tested competitive fighting game that has gone through the wringer and come back stronger than before. Smash 4 has yet to be tested like this and it is uncertain that when it does whether it will survive or not.

2. Competition- There seems to be those who think that the 5 Gods(Mang0, M2K, Armada, PPMD, and HungryBox) are the only ones who can win a major event or are unbeatable. This is not true Players that are on a high level can take games and sets from these monsters on a regular basis. Players like Shroomed, Plup, And even Myself have taken sets from them and knocked them into losers brackets. In Sm4sh Their is quite an obvious leader in Zer0(who won 53 straight Sm4sh Tournaments.) where only players like Nairo(#2) can take sets off him on a great day.

3. Mechanics- Sm4sh has limited technical option compared to melee.

Melee has Wave dashing, Ledge hogging, Meaningful air dodges, Moon walking, Wobbling, Wave shining, Chain grabbing (Removed in Sm4sh), and countless others that Sm4sh does not give players access to.

Melee is a game better designed whether intentional or not for competitive tournaments.


Why Smash 4 is more competitive than Melee

More accessible to new players

New copies of Melee and new game cube systems have not been made in years, while a copy of Smash 4 and a wiiu/3ds can easily be purchased in a store. This makes new players who are interested in trying competitive Smash for the first time more inclined to play competitive Smash 4 over Melee. Being able to attract more new players will continue to give competitive Smash 4 an advantage over Melee. [1]

More training options

Unlike Smash 4, Melee has no online capabilities, which means that if you want to learn to become better at Melee, you need to find another person who you can train with in real life, and even then if that person is either much better or worse than you, you won"t be able to push each other to become better. With Smash 4, finding other people to play online is easy, and online smash 4 has minimal lag compared to Brawl, which makes it more viable for competitive practice. In addition, if you are getting too good for random online matches for Smash 4, you can use friend codes obtained from Smash forums to challenge other competitive players to get even better practice. And even if you want to train without a friend or internet connection, Smash 4 is still better to train competitively than Melee since Smash 4 has Amiibo players capable of reaching level 50 which are more challenging than the level 9 CPU's in Melee. [1]

More competitively viable characters

During the APEX 2015 Smash bros tournament, out of the top 16 players in Melee, only 9 different characters where used while out of the top 16 players for Smash 4, 18 different characters where used (some players used more than 1 main character). More unique competitively viable characters adds more depth and diversity to competitive Smash, which helps make competitive Smash 4 even better. [1]

Miscellaneous things unique to Smash 4

1. Smash 4 has game mechanics like footstooling and run turnaround cancel.

2. Smash 4 can receive future patches to fix any mechanics which might later discovered to be too unbalanced, which helps ensure the game will continue to stay competitively viable.

3. Smash 4 has custom moves, which if eventually accepted in most standard tournaments would add even more diversity to competitive Smash.

Debate Round No. 2


Your first point of accessibility of the game to new players is an inevitable fact based on the fact that melee is 15 years old.[1]

The training options available in Sm4sh are questionable in their usefulness as i have never found myself getting better in For Glory than i have playing with a friend at his/her or my house. Your point of amiibo's being a viable training tool only stands if someone is willing to spend the $9.99-$12.99[2] on them and are willing to get them to lvl 50 and "teach" it advanced techniques other competitive players are going to use.

More competitively viable characters:
This comes at the fact that their are more available characters to begin with in Sm4sh and the stat you provided may have been as it is due to the lack of an outstanding meta in the games competitive scene. As on now approaching on Apex 2016 there has been a shift in the meta meaning their may be a similar stat to melee.
Melee had 34% of its characters used in the top 16.
Sm4sh had 33% of its roster used in the top 16

The diversity is approximately equal for both games.




Scene Longevity
Smash 4 doesn't have to worry too much about longevity because even if in the future a single over powered strategy becomes overly dominant, the game will probably just receive another patch to re-balance the game.

Although my opponent is correct in stating that Smash 4 has an obvious leader unlike Melee, this makes Smash 4 a better competitive game, not worse. Ideally for any competitive game the superior player should consistently win, as opposed to uncompetitive games where even a less skilled person should still have a reasonable chance for winning so that everyone can have fun.

Ledge hogging has been replaced with ledge trumping which offers its own unique mechanics[3]
Wobbling is applicable to only Ice Climbers[1]
Wave shining is applicable to only Fox and Falco[2]
My opponent did not provide evidence for why the air dodges in Smash 4 are not meaningful.
Although Smash 4 does not have chain grabbing, you can still perform pseudo chain grabs by abusing hitstun[4]

Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Beryllium 3 months ago
Pro won this debate by a f***ing landslide and he didn't even have to debate anything. Anyone who argues smash for Wii u is a more competitive game is lying to themselves and should stick to items on 8 player coin battles until they understand what a competitive game means.
Posted by ballpit 9 months ago
To be honest though if i had put a 4th round I would have explained the air dodges there but even outside the debate (DO NOT COUNT THIS TOWARD YOUR DEBATE VOTES) the air dodges actually provide a significant movement option that can be heavily punished if used at a bad time due to the fact that it puts you in the state of helplessness while falling.
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