The Instigator
Mikegj1077
Pro (for)
Losing
19 Points
The Contender
Tatarize
Con (against)
Winning
60 Points

So you're against patriotism? I'm Pro patriotism.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/23/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,141 times Debate No: 2136
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (25)

 

Mikegj1077

Pro

You're against patriotism? Why don't you just leave the country.

If you were in a Nazi concentration camp during WW2 you'd be pretty patriotic when those war monger US troops came to save your azz.

What an ungrateful jerk...
Tatarize

Con

If I were a patriot in a Nazi concentration camp, I would be a Nazi. You are confusing the idea of being a patriot with being pro-American. Patriotism is at it's core a form of bigotry. My country is better than other countries because I was born here.

America has done some great things in the past and has done some bad things as well; so have most countries. I do not believe that universal patriotism is called for, rather respect is due to your country to the amount your country has earned your respect. Yes, my country was right to join WWII even though we did so several years later than we should have. The idea of patriotism is loving your country strictly because it is your country.

I'm sure there were some patriots in Nazi concentration camps doing horrific things for the fatherland. They were wrong to be patriots, because their country was wrong for what it did.

Your rather naive view that patriotism is a sort of global respect for America during the times when America earns respect is horrifically flawed. Patriotism is support for your country strictly because it is your country. Patriotism is support for your country when your country does bad as well as good.

I consider myself a citizen of the world. Historically my country has done good things and bad things. It is my privilege to exalt the good things my country has done... but it is also incumbent on me to point out when my country does wrong.
Debate Round No. 1
Mikegj1077

Pro

"If I were a patriot in a Nazi concentration camp, I would be a Nazi."

But you're not a Nazi in a concentration camp. You're an American. But if you were a Nazi in a concentration camp, wouldn't you rather be an American instead of a low paid enlisted man standing out in the cold, watching Jews filing into the gas chambers? (Tat, your pic shows you figuring out stuff like life is in the balance if you don't come up with the right decision.)

You are confusing the idea of being a patriot with being pro-American.

"My country is better than other countries because I was born here."

Your country is better because people sacrificed. Some died for their country. You just shove chili dogs into your mouth.

"America has done some great things in the past and has done some bad things as well."

Typical secular progressive. America, good and bad, divided equally. In my opinion, American has done far more good than bad. The bad we've done has been more than reversed.

"The idea of patriotism is loving your country strictly because it is your country."

That's not what I meant. American tolerates chili dog eaters like you, as well as the poor and lazy, the homosexuals and the KKK. American's strength are the people, the soldiers, the volunteers, the people who go the extra mile. Even chili dog eaters like you. You will be a useful citizen some day.

"I'm sure there were some patriots in Nazi concentration camps doing horrific things for the fatherland. They were wrong to be patriots, because their country was wrong for what it did."

Now you're having second thoughts about what you said. You shouldn't rationalize Nazis and Americans as part of the same group, with similar motives. Terrorists verses Americans. There is a difference.

"Your rather naive view that patriotism is a sort of global respect for America during the times when America earns respect is horrifically flawed. Patriotism is support for your country strictly because it is your country. "

That's an asinine statement. Americans have plenty of real reasons to be patriotic. Most of us aren't robots like you who debate good and evil like they‘re equally deserving of their talking points.

"Patriotism is support for your country when your country does bad as well as good."
No. Americans really do have reasons to be patriotic.

"I consider myself a citizen of the world. Historically my country has done good things and bad things. It is my privilege to exalt the good things my country has done... but it is also incumbent on me to point out when my country does wrong."

You sound like some political science student after a few drinks, and a joint. Go ahead. Shove a few more chili dogs into your face and make like you are Plato. We're listening.
Tatarize

Con

The point isn't about Americans in general or myself in particular. The point of patriotism is that they love their country. Your analogy of patriots loving Americans breaking down a concentration camp is flawed. There were certainly Nazi patriots defending the concentration camp from American patriots. The entire point is that patriotism isn't the point at all. Supporting your country strictly because it is your country is not a solution to anything. In fact, if it weren't for patriotism there wouldn't have been the concentration camp at all. When we say insurgent in Iraq we mean to say we are fighting Iraqi patriots. Supporting something which is just a happenstance of your birth is not a justifiable position. Supporting America because I was born American is much akin to supporting white people because I was born white.

Let me point out there are good reasons and have been good reasons to support America. And I very much do support America. However, I support America when America does good and I condemn it when we do evil. Blind support for the sake of being born here is completely wrong. I'm not saying supporting America is wrong, our civil liberties and system of government when not being stomped on by the Bush administration are beacons to the world. At least they were until much of the world adopted and surpassed many of our ideals.

My country has been made better by the sacrifice of others, just as it has been tarnished by the murder of others. The fact is America has done good things and bad things and I tend to think the scales very much tip towards the good. I also think that I can help tip them towards the better. However, I do not and do not believe others should advocate supporting American policies for the sake of them being American policies.

In an odd way, it is our support for what America should be rather than what America is which has made America into what it is. If you were to support what we have, for the sake that this is what we have, you would betray that striving which actually made America what it is. Or as Bruce Lee put it, if you're going to punch somebody in the face... aim for the back of the head. Supporting what America does for the sake the America does that is wrong, we've done some good things and some bad things and still we can do better. Telling kids that America is right because you were born here is nothing short of despicable. We can do better.

You can argue in favor of Americanism or that America is a great country. And you'll find plenty of support here. But, the naive view that America is great because it is America or that any country is great because the advocate of that position was born there; nobody could or should support that idea.

As Carl Schurz put it, "My Country! When right keep it right; when wrong, set it right!" -- I'm staking my claim here and making the country better, not because she can do no wrong. Rather because I can do better.

You suggest that if you don't support this country 100% you should get out. That's wrong and stupid. The reason people should support this country is because unlike some others you have a real opportunity to make it into a country you can support.

I want to live in a country where homosexuals are not lumped into a group of tolerated people with the KKK. I want to live in a country where rather than bigots like you who say that this is what you get and if you don't want it leave, I want to live in a country of freethinking idealism. I want a country which people support not because of some loyalty to the land your mother went into labor on, but because it is hard to look at what we stand for and not support America.

David Hume wrote, that "The heights of popularity and patriotism are still the beaten road to power and tyranny; flattery to treachery; standing armies to arbitrary government; and the glory of God to the temporal interest of the clergy." -- I don't want to live in that country. I don't want a country which demands my respect, I want a country that earns my respect.
Debate Round No. 2
Mikegj1077

Pro

C

Let me point out there are good reasons and have been good reasons to support America. And I very much do support America. However, I support America when America does good and I condemn it when we do evil. Blind support for the sake of being born here is completely wrong. I'm not saying supporting America is wrong, our civil liberties and system of government when not being stomped on by the Bush administration are beacons to the world. At least they were until much of the world adopted and surpassed many of our ideals.

My country has been made better by the sacrifice of others, just as it has been tarnished by the murder of others. The fact is America has done good things and bad things and I tend to think the scales very much tip towards the good. I also think that I can help tip them towards the better. However, I do not and do not believe others should advocate supporting American policies for the sake of them being American policies.

In an odd way, it is our support for what America should be rather than what America is which has made America into what it is. If you were to support what we have, for the sake that this is what we have, you would betray that striving which actually made America what it is. Or as Bruce Lee put it, if you're going to punch somebody in the face... aim for the back of the head. Supporting what America does for the sake the America does that is wrong, we've done some good things and some bad things and still we can do better. Telling kids that America is right because you were born here is nothing short of despicable. We can do better.

You can argue in favor of Americanism or that America is a great country. And you'll find plenty of support here. But, the naive view that America is great because it is America or that any country is great because the advocate of that position was born there; nobody could or should support that idea.

As Carl Schurz put it, "My Country! When right keep it right; when wrong, set it right!" -- I'm staking my claim here and making the country better, not because she can do no wrong. Rather because I can do better.

You suggest that if you don't support this country 100% you should get out. That's wrong and stupid. The reason people should support this country is because unlike some others you have a real opportunity to make it into a country you can support.

I want to live in a country where homosexuals are not lumped into a group of tolerated people with the KKK. I want to live in a country where rather than bigots like you who say that this is what you get and if you don't want it leave, I want to live in a country of freethinking idealism. I want a country which people support not because of some loyalty to the land your mother went into labor on, but because it is hard to look at what we stand for and not support America.

David Hume wrote, that "The heights of popularity and patriotism are still the beaten road to power and tyranny; flattery to treachery; standing armies to arbitrary government; and the glory of God to the temporal interest of the clergy." -- I don't want to live in that country. I don't want a country which demands my respect, I want a country that earns my respect.

The following rounds still remain in this debate: Round 3

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Tatarize

Con

It looks a bit like you failed to cut and paste properly.

Let me just say, I love America. I'm highly looking forward to the next presidential elections. I hope we start going on the right track. I want a country I can be proud of, not a country that demands pride. Patriotism and nationalism are not virtues. A virtuous country doesn't need blind support, in fact, our democracy depends on us all doing what is right even if the current government disagrees. We should have a country that earns support when you simply open your eyes.

Just because your born here, doesn't instantly mean this is the best place on Earth. Rather, you should try to make America a place worthy of respect. We've done some bad things and some good things, and though the scales still tip towards the good. We should not ignore the bad things because we support our country no matter what.

I want an America I can support with my eyes open, not with my eyes closed. Lowering the bar to just being the best because I was born here is an insult. We can do better.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Mikegj1077 9 years ago
Mikegj1077
So whose sss do we have to save this year? Tat loves America, just not enough to fight for it.
Posted by TidusAlmasty 9 years ago
TidusAlmasty
I would just like to say that this started out as an attack on the con.
Posted by skyfallsout 9 years ago
skyfallsout
Talk about character assasination. Con wins purley for having the dignity to not get into it personaly.
Posted by Undermining-Chaos 9 years ago
Undermining-Chaos
Thank you, Con, for carrying with a sense of reason, logic, and some very skillful reasons.
Pro's petty insult-laced arguments would have immediately switched me to your side, were I not already there.

Well written, well said, congratulations.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
I'm not usually a fan of censorship, but if stupidity has been proven, I think you should be kicked off of the site. I think pro got some of that girl's blond hair dye in his brain.
Posted by ellyphant 9 years ago
ellyphant
Everywhere I go on this site, I continually see people choose to throw insults and generalizations at the other party instead of providing specific, concrete support. Thank you, Tatarize, for not being the one about whom I am currently referring.
Posted by JackBauerPower 9 years ago
JackBauerPower
there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism which i think is lost upon mikegj. Not only that, blind, bullheaded support and trust in your country is simply ignorant.
Posted by ahundredhighways 9 years ago
ahundredhighways
the way i see it is patriotism is love and respect for your country, nationalism is the belief that your counrty is better than all others, but i think that you can be both a nationalist and a patriot, as I see myself
Posted by mattresses 9 years ago
mattresses
as idiotic as he is, i believe mikegj is saying that if you were an american in a concentration camp when the u.s. came you would feel patriotic. unfortunately, he doesn't seem to understand that it was europeans in the concentration (really death) camps. the u.s. citizens were in the p.o.w. camps.
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