The Instigator
steelersfan189
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points
The Contender
Spiral
Con (against)
Winning
33 Points

Socially conservative evangelicals are hypocritical

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/23/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,342 times Debate No: 3347
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (15)

 

steelersfan189

Pro

Greetings. Let me get right to the point, and I apologize in advance for sounding preachy.

When are evangelicals going to stop being hypocrites by voting Republican?

I believe in God......but I DON'T believe in the Christian church. Its turned religion into a bureaucracy. Throughout its history, it has used scare tactics like heaven and hell, violence (Crusades), and racism to build "faith". It has been filled with hate and bigotry for so long, and even today's evagelical version of it still contains oppressive messages. You know how more people have been murdered in the history of mankind than anyway else? In the name of God...specifically the "Christian" God. If God was real, he would never associate himself with the Christians who find it immoral to do stem cell research and save real lives.........but would never help an illegal immegrant escape poverty so he can feed his starving family or support universal health care. It is amazing how hypocrtical some evangelicals are when it comes to following the teaching of "What Would Jesus Do?"

So why do evangelicals vote for Republicans who go against Jesus's most basic teaching of helping others? They are creating a double standard. The hypocracy of these religious beliefs just shows that the religion has no proof, and should never be seriously used as a basis for political thought, which is exactly what they do when they deny gay marraige or abortion.
Spiral

Con

The case against moderate Christianity is somewhat clearer than my opponent suspects (and therefore a good reason for Evangelicals to vote Republican) The OT, being the divine word of god, detailing the acts of god and his followers, is as such, just as important as the NT depictions, and evangelical faith in general (more on that next round).
Let's start with violence, always a fun past time for Christian's, past and present.
Figures do not include the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc., with which the good book is filled. Still, the below figure is a respectable number, even for world class

(specific and consecutive count included)

Lot's wife for looking backGen.19:26 1 1
Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord"Gen.38:7 1 2
Onan for spilling his seedGen.38:10 1 3
For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calfEx.32:27-28,3000 3003
Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the LordLev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61 23005
A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23 1 3006
A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath Num.15:32-36 1 3007
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families)Num.16:27 12+ 3019+
Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10 2503269+
For complaining Num.16:49, 14,700 17,969+
For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9 24,000 41,969+
Midianite massacre Num.31:1-35 90,000+131,969+
God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing.Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26 5+ 131,974+
God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho Joshua 8:1-25
12,000143,974+
God delivered Canaanites and PerizzitesJudges 1:4 10,000 153,974+
Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's bellyJg.3:15-22
1 153,975+
God delivered Moabites Jg.3:28-29 10,000 163,975+
God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10 120,000 283,975+
The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson Jg.14:19 30 284,005+
The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on SamsonJg.15:14-15 1000 285,005+
Samson's God-assisted act of terrorismJg.16:27-30 3000 288,005+
"The Lord smote Benjamin" Jg.20:35-37 25,100 313,105+
More BenjamitesJg.20:44-46 25,000 338,105+
For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam.6:19 50,070 388,175+
God delivered Philistines. 1 Sam.14:12 20 388,195+
Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33 1 388,196+
"The Lord smote Nabal."1 Sam.25:38 1 388,197+
Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10
1 388,198+
David and Bathsheba's baby boy.2 Sam.12:14-18 1 388,199+
Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9 7 388,206+
From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7 70,000+ 458,206+
A prophet for believing another prophet's lie 1 Kg.13:1-24 1 458,207+
God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands 1 Kg.20:28-29 100,000 558,207+
God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kg.20:30 27,000 585,207+
God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36
1 585,208+
Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god.2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9
1 585,209+
Burned to death by God2 Kg.1:9-12 102585,311+
God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 42 585,343+
Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20 1 585,344+
Jezebel2 Kg.9:33-37 1 585,355+
God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26 3+ 585,358+
Sleeping Assyrian soldiers 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36
185,000770,358+
Saul 1 Chr.10:14 1 770,359+
God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chr.13:15-17 500,000 1,270,359+
Jeroboam 2 Chr.13:20 1 1,270,360+
"The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 1,000,000 2,270,360+
God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out2 Chr.21:14-19 1 2,270,361+
Ezekiel's wifeEzek.24:15-18 12,270,362+
Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10 2 2,270,364+
HerodActs 12:23 1 2,270,365+

Final Total: 2,270,365

But how does this compare with Satan? How many did he kill in the Bible?
Well, ten, and even most of these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it as a part of a bet (seven sons and three daughters of Job).
God: 2,270,365
Satan: 10

So now we have established that God is in his own right a rather nasty piece of work, we can move on to some more damning evidence on his nature, and how the concept of moderate Christianity is an aberrant view of God's word. Firstly and briefly let us address how God goes about his destruction.
"Now go and attack Amalek and utterly destroy all they have and do not spare them. Kill both man and women, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam. 15:3) (cf. Deut. 2:30-35, 7:1-2, 7:16; Josh. 6:21; 1Sam. 6:19; Jer. 13:14) God would even go so far as to "harden the hearts or souls" of the intended victims to provoke a reason to attack them (Exod.4:21; Deut.30:31). God's hands are somewhat dirtier now; he actively proposes wholesale slaughter, the extinction of bloodlines, innocent children, even so far as to set up the opposite side for destruction.

So for now I will finish with, is God is evil? The case is certainly there.
e•vil ˈi vəl - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-vuh l] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate;disastrous
characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate harmful; injurious
causing injury or harm
a harmful aspect, effect, or consequence
http://dictionary.reference.com...

"No evil in this city is without God's will."(Amos 3:6) "I make peace and I create evil. I the Lord do all these things." (Is. 45:7) "Out of the most high precedes both evil and good." (Lam. 3:38)

In the bible Abraham discards humanity and morality upon God's command to kill his son Isaac, and God rewards him for placing fidelity above morality. That is probably evil, a good god would expect Abraham to forego fear and loyalty and place compassion first and refuse to commit an evil act, and would reward him for that, not for compliance. Likewise, God deliberately inflicts unconscionable wrongs upon Job and his family merely to win a bet with Satan. That is probably evil, no good god would do such harm for so petty a reason, much less prefer human suffering to the cajoling of a mere fallen angel. How does God justify these wrongs to Job? By claiming to be able to do whatever he wants, in effect saying that he is beyond morality. That is probably evil; a good god would never claim to be beyond good and evil. Similarly for all the genocidal slaughter and barbaric laws commanded by God in the bible (Leviticus). Then there are all the natural evils in the world (like diseases and earthquakes) and all the unchecked human evils. Only an evil god would probably allow such things. Please my opponent, do not assume I am calling evangelicals evil, not at all, but the nature of God is relevant to their beliefs and as such, it stands.

So with the true nature of God revealed to my opponent, I leave it up to my opponent to argue the case for moderate Christianity.
Debate Round No. 1
steelersfan189

Pro

steelersfan189 forfeited this round.
Spiral

Con

The Bible is accepted by Evangelicals as the Holy Spirit inspired revelation of God's word and therefore the ultimate authority in matters of faith and practice. The historicity of the miracles of Jesus and of his virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and second coming are asserted. Salvation comes only through faith in Jesus and not as a result of one's good works. Salvation is entirely a work of God's grace and cannot be earned or deserved. It has been accomplished by Jesus and is offered to all in the gospel (in particular belief in atonement for sins at the cross and the resurrection of Christ). They believe God revealed himself in the Bible, OT and NT. Every word was inspired by God through human authors, the Bible as originally given is in its entirety is the word of God, without fault and wholly reliable in fact and doctrine. The Bible alone speaks with final authority and is always sufficient for all matters of belief and practice.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." -Ephesians 2:8,9

Evangelicals do not believe in the need to do "good works or deeds" all that is at stake here is eternal life in heaven. Nothing else matters, that takes precedence over all else. North American, evangelicals, on the whole, tend to be socially conservative. Examples of this are their view that marriage is defined as exclusively between a man and a woman, therefore they oppose laws allowing gay and lesbian individuals to marry. Additionally, based on their view that the life of a human embryo takes precedence over an individual's right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, they generally oppose laws protecting abortion on demand. A high percentage of evangelicals believe in the concept of rapture, literally the disintegration of atoms and immediate transformation of believers. Additionally a large percentage believes that the rapture will happen sometime in their life. As such they support policy that seems to support their view of what the end times will entail; this includes environmental policies (we have the rapture, no point saving the world, in fact global warming could be seen as a sign of the event itself) and foreign policy e.g. war in the middle east. According to their reading of the Bible, God established a covenant with Abraham in the Book of Genesis. Essentially, evangelicals support Israel because they believe God blesses those that bless the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews. Consequently, they believe America needs to bless the Jews and Israel, because if we bless the Jews and support Israel, God blesses us. And if they don't, God will curse them. But it goes beyond that. The establishment and continuation of the State of Israel is essential to set the stage for the imminent return of Jesus. At the time of the Second Coming, these Christians believe, Jesus will descend from heaven, subdue all of Israel's enemies and take believers to heaven. According to conservative Christians' reading of the Book of Revelation, this won't happen unless Israel exists in the Holy Land.

So we have established that evangelical belief is fully compatible with conservative republican policy. Now onto Jesus himself, and the reason why Evangelical practice can seem to be at odd with the stereotyped image held of Jesus. In fact Jesus shows many traits of his father, stated in the previous round (Jesus is after all part of the trinity, the trinity is part of the one). The image of Jesus being a paragon of peace is an erroneous one. Here a few examples (there are plenty more).

Mathew:
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they do not care for his preaching. 11:20-24

Mark:
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (cf. Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10

If you're ashamed of Jesus, he'll be ashamed of you, therefore sent to hell. 8:38

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

Luke:
John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17

Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15

Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5

Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47

Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. 17:26-27

In the parable of the talents, Jesus states that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he does not sow. The parable ends: "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." 19:22-27

John:
Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14

Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was unpalatable for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." 6:53-66

Acts:
Peter claims that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23

So we have Evangelicals voting Republican, which on reflection is the natural choice for them to take based on their beliefs and the direction they hope that belief leads. Good deeds are not a requisite; their belief is not based on peace and goodwill. In their eyes, the ends do indeed justify the means. I leave it up to my opponent once again to argue the case for moderate Evangelical Christianity.
Debate Round No. 2
steelersfan189

Pro

steelersfan189 forfeited this round.
Spiral

Con

Ah well. It appears as if my opponent has forfeited his side. Evangelical belief; the root of their belief and the values they place on good deeds, and the direction they see belief will take them, are all in line with Republican policy.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Christianity has gone through the reformation and is now a completely mature religion.

Christians are nice folks, and conservative and moral

Islam is a threat , not Christianity

Islam CANNOT really be reformed, becuase Muhammed was evil

my 2 c

SOLARMAN
Posted by Statesman 9 years ago
Statesman
As far as evangelicals not seeing a neccessity for doing good works... John 14:15-19 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." and also in James 2:15-19 "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, 'You have faith, and I have works.' Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one GOD. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! When this verse says that faith without sorks is dead it is not contradicting Ephesians 2:8-9. Instead it is explaining how faith and works are both necessary to the christian life. Works are not needed to save someone's soul. A good example of this is the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Even though he died minutes later, this thief professed faith in Christ as the perfect Son of GOD and Jesus told him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." No works were necessary for him to go with Jesus to Paradise. Just faith. However, in John 14:15 Jesus clearly says that whoever loves Him will keep His commandments. What James is saying is that someone who claims to be a christian who is not doing good works clearly does not love GOD, and therefore does not possess the saving faith that the thief on the cross did. Not that anybody is perfect. You show me a christian that claims to be perfect, or for that matter less of a sinner than everybody else, and I'll show you a hypocrite. The difference is that a christian who truly has the Holy Spirit living in their hearts does have a neccessity for good works. Not to save them. But because they love GOD so much that there is nothing else they want to do more than to obey His commandments. Also, I'm a christian and I don't believe in the rapture.
Posted by Spiral 9 years ago
Spiral
"Christian's, past and present" uggh remove Christian's insert Christians. I claim once again, lack of coffee!
Posted by Spiral 9 years ago
Spiral
lol sorry I meant *day or so* apparently i need sleep or coffee. :)
Posted by Spiral 9 years ago
Spiral
lol sorry I meant *day or so*
Posted by Spiral 9 years ago
Spiral
Thanks, for the interesting topic, should be able to have reply put together in a day or .
Posted by Cooperman88 9 years ago
Cooperman88
and to be a christian but not believing in the Christian church is absurd. "scare tactics like heaven and hell" if you're a christian, you MUST believe that is true. it isn't an option. it's not a scare tactic, it's TRUTH. and Jesus also said that we should respect the laws of the land, if someone is breaking the law by crossing the border illegally, then Jesus wouldn't accept that. He says that is sin. Not only that, but you provide two examples of how it contradicts. What about gay marriages? You fail to address that one. conveniently. what about abortion? another convenient one you left out. how about addressing all the issues to prove your point. you may have some trouble doing that.
Posted by Statesman 9 years ago
Statesman
As to the many people murdered in the name of christianity, yes there have been many. The crusades however were conducted by catholics and the catholic faith is entirely different from the protestant faith. Also, I can murder someone in your name but that doesn't mean that you in any way encouraged it or condoned it, it just means that I'm a lunatic who likes to murder people and using your name just happened to be the most convenient way. The fact that you don't make the distinction between true followers of Christ and people who just claim his names shows that you haven't thought this through and are just spouting your personal bias. As for your argument on stem cell research there are verses of the Bible that talk about GOD knowing someone at the moment of their conception. Not when someone is born, but at the moment of conception when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Also we believe that welfare is not helping someone because it keeps them a slave to someone else's genorosity instead of being strong enough and stable enough to do it on their own. You obviously have no understanding of the christian faith, why we believe what we believe, and why we vote Republican. Actually research these things instead of leaning on your own bias and then post a debate. Your lack of logical thought and your numerous misunderstandings don't even deserve to be debated. Therefore I'm just commenting.
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