The Instigator
Rob1Billion
Pro (for)
Winning
28 Points
The Contender
Solarman1969
Con (against)
Losing
18 Points

Solarman's Neo-con Republican picks (Romney McCain Bush) hurt our country through supporting the war

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/15/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,492 times Debate No: 2678
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (27)
Votes (14)

 

Rob1Billion

Pro

I have been waiting to debate the great solarman for a long time and I have decided to make my move. Solarman supports the neo-conservatives, which are nothing more than confused republicans that are anything BUT conservative. They are not conservative on social policy. Conservatism would logically mean to keep the government OUT of people's lives. Bush, the Huckster, Romney, and McCain are not socially conservative. They support the War on Drugs, which is a billion dollar a week waste of capital that does anything BUT stay out of people's lives, and does anything BUT keep the government small and avoid wasteful spending. The WoD does NOT do a DAMN thing good for our country. They support the War on Terror, which is extremely expensive and wasteful and does not reduce terrorism abroad or at home. 9/11 was an isolated incident and the only thing that helped keep those attacks from happening again was increasing our airline security AT HOME. Conservatism would logically dictate that keeping the military at home would be the sound approach, not spreading them around the world in an extremely expensive and wasteful manner. This is actually a liberal way to manage the military. We should keep our military at home where they can defend us more effectively. Let's get out of Iraq and let them have their civil war, and stop playing nanny of the middle east while our economy crashes and our spending and borrowing for this waste of resources skyrockets. Only a liberal would want to perpetuate this costly conflict any longer. You, Solarman, are a confused neoconservative liberal. I know that one hurt...

These politicians support the USA Patriot act, which is very liberal. No true conservative would pry apart our civil liberties like this or do damage to habeus corpus. They support the anti-abortion movement, and try to get right in there with women in the hospital and tell them what they can and can't do with their bodies. How is this conservative? Why don't you look up the meaning of the word in the dictionary so maybe you can get a grasp on your ideological tendency!

These politicians want to perpetuate this war in Iraq forever. Literally. Ask McCain how long he wants to stay in Iraq. What did he say... 50 to a hundred years if necessary? This is conservatism? Has the country gone mad? Conservatism means to keep the government small and control spending. These politicians that Solarman supports support out of control liberal spending, invasion of privacy and unprecedented control of people's lives by the government, and damage to our constitution.
Solarman1969

Con

Essentially you have put forth a litany of liberal ideas

the debate is on the WAR, however

the bottom line is that ISLAM is AT WAR with US

period.

We need to be on the offense, and take out the enemy

the battleground is the middle east and asia, and we need to stay on offense, not defense, as we did under the moral coward and corrupt idiot Clinton

In terms of your paranoia about "intrusion into our personal lives"

what are you trying to hide?

do you not think we should monitor KNOWN TERRORISTS conversations?

Pelosi et al WONT bring it up for a vote EVEN THOUGH it would pass immieditely

WHY?

becuase the TRIAL LAWYERS WANT TO SUE THE TELECOM companies

the liberals are paranoid as well about hiding their penchant for sending child porn- like Bernie Ward - look it up

more later

gotta go for now
Debate Round No. 1
Rob1Billion

Pro

OK Solarman, so your bottom line is that Islam is at war with us, therefore we are justified in being at war with them. Now, this seems to be a pretty good line of thinking, but let us pick at it with some logical arguments to see if it holds up.

I hear John McCain will stick it out in the middle east for the next 50 to 100 years, if that is what it takes. Is this your plan as well, Solarman? You see I don't feel like paying for this war for another 100 years, and I don't think our country could possibly last that long the way we are going anyway. My point: when will Islam be defeated? Islam is a religion; it is an idea. You can't kill an idea with a bullet, or blow it up with a bomb. If Islam is determined to wage war on us, there isn't much we can do preemptively to stop them in the middle east. The more we do over there to persecute Islam, the stronger it becomes due to our persecution. Does that make sense? The Islamists use our presence in the middle east to fuel their motives, and we need to get out of there so that they don't have that cause to fight for. If we spent this war money in a positive way in the middle east, with diplomatic and humanitarian processes, we could further kill the anti-western cause that is cindering in that region.

What is our goal in the middle east? If Islam has waged war on us and we are responding in suit, then we must destroy all Islamists and Islamist nations. If we leave any Islamists alive, they will begin to recruit and rebuild and rise once again to terrorize our nation. Is this the logic you are using? Because you can see that this is not an achievable goal. Our methods regarding the middle east more resemble a schoolyard fight then a strategic military mission. John McCain used the words "50 to 100 years" for good reason. That is because there is no end in sight, despite George Bush using statistics rhetorically to try and demonstrate that there is. The only statistics that matter are the families that have been ruined in the middle east, the growing numbers of religious zealots that are resulting, the numbers of dead US soldiers and Iraqi civilians, and the time it will take to get our troops out of there. Every other statistic is irrelevent.

The rest of the world has also been steadily losing faith in us, and we are finding ourselves in a worse and worse situation every day. We do need, despite common republican garble, the support of the rest of the world to operate efficiently. If our own country has such high negatives regarding our president, then what do you think europe, asia, and africa think about us? But who cares about them, right? We don't need all those continents to care about us because we are rich and powerful. We don't need to end our war because Islam has taken a stand against us. We don't need to respect other countries the way we would like to be respected because we are in the right. If Islam was over here during our civil war, telling us to sit down and SHUT UP instead of fighting it out, I'm sure all of us would be ready to fly a plane into some of their buildings. If Islamist troops were over here stationed in our hometowns, I'm sure some of us would consider blowing up those SOB's too with some home-made explosives even if it took our own lives as well. If most of our American families were missing half of their members because of Islamist troops and civil warfare I'm sure we would hate them too. Empathy and general open-minded and impartial thinking from multiple perspectives is not a common virtue among us Americans, especially the neoconservatives. They don't consider it even, because they assume that we are the supreme white christian pinnacles of morality and justice and just what God had in mind for the best country in the world. It is a selfish way to live indeed.
Solarman1969

Con

Well, how did we defeat

(1) the Nazis?

(2) Tojo's imperial Army

(3) Mussolini

(4) the Islamists who allied themselves with the AXIS in WWII

Answer : We killed enough of them until they gave upin WAR

The Japs were SO INSANE that we needed to drop not one but TWO nuclear weapons to get them to give up their insane war with the world

so by you logic, we shouldnt have gone over there and fought the nazis and Japs becuase, by your words

"The more we do over there to persecute Islam, the stronger it becomes due to our persecution. Does that make sense? "

No it doesnt - just as us killing the Japs and Nazis didnt make them stronger

Al Queda has been CRIPPLED by our efforts

Their ability to recruit has been decimated as well- and their funding sources have been dried up

The iraqis have turned against them and are ratting them out BECAUSE we stuck it out long enough and earned their trust.

these people are PURE EVIL. They will strap bombs to children and handicapped people and blow up markets

They will fly planes into buildings

They will in a heartbeat explode a nuclear weapon and murder millions, and think they are going to heaven.

Islam is at its core, NOT a religion, but an INSANE DEATH CULT based on the life of a truly horrible human being

For that reason, it is a more intractable problem that dealing with a hostile nation-state, as we have previously had to deal with

But Islamist nut jobs CANNOT be allowed to get nukes- they will USE THEM, thinking it is great

YOUR NEXT POINT

What is our goal in the middle east? If Islam has waged war on us and we are responding in suit, then we must destroy all Islamists and Islamist nations. If we leave any Islamists alive, they will begin to recruit and rebuild and rise once again to terrorize our nation. Is this the logic you are using?

No , the logic we are using is to try and encourage FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY, and the EMPOWERMENT of WOMEN

As the TRUTH about Islam becomes more known, and the veils of ignorance are lifted, and the forced conversions and suppression is stopped, the new generations will REJECT ISLAM

Look at Iran- the young people there , who are well educated, TOTALLY REJECT ISLAM and the THUGS that rule over them and suppress them.

When given a CHOICE, people will choose FREEDOM, and will FIGHT to keep it.

YOUR NEXT POINT

The rest of the world has also been steadily losing faith in us, and we are finding ourselves in a worse and worse situation every day. We do need, despite common republican garble, the support of the rest of the world to operate efficiently. If our own country has such high negatives regarding our president, then what do you think europe, asia, and africa think about us? But who cares about them, right?

Pretty much who cares what the cowardly European socialists think

They have MAJOR problems, caused by their far left liberlism.

Islamists are taking over and rioting in the streets in France and England.

There are bombings in England, and Spain.

and their economies are in shambles

But you will note that our relations with Germany and France have never been better- they totally respect our president, despite the lies of the press.

You cant go through life trying to please others, you need to do what YOU think is RIGHT

the PRESS in this country and is general is VERY LIBERAL and simply LIE and DISTORT about the conservatives , trying to make everything seem bad

NEXT POINT

" If Islam was over here during our civil war, telling us to sit down and SHUT UP instead of fighting it out, I'm sure all of us would be ready to fly a plane into some of their buildings. If Islamist troops were over here stationed in our hometowns, I'm sure some of us would consider blowing up those SOB's too with some home-made explosives even if it took our own lives as well. If most of our American families were missing half of their members because of Islamist troops and civil warfare I'm sure we would hate them too."

this is completely nonsensical and doesnt hold water.

Plain and simple, you distort what we are doing over there

We are freeing people, building schools and hospitals and power plants, and helping them build free and fair socities, from the ashes of a brutal dictatorship- just as we have ALWAYS DONE FOREVER.

For example, Germany and Japan, are our allies and great nations now- we dodnt take them over- we simply ended their evil leadership and made them straighten out.

Our boys (and girld) are INCREDIBLE and great people, and it makes me sick to hear the rhetoric from the left that tries to paint them as cold blooded killers.

"If most of our American families were missing half of their members because of Islamist troops "

are you saying that our boys have killed civilians on purpose?

Why dont you ask the IRAQIS if they want us there?

Why dont you ask THEM who THEY trust?

Why dont you ask the TERRORISTS if they want us there?

Why dont you ask the TERRORISTS who they want elected here?

YOUR NEXT POINT

"Empathy and general open-minded and impartial thinking from multiple perspectives is not a common virtue among us Americans, especially the neoconservatives"

This is total BS

WE conservatives are the most empathetic, and most open minded.

We just DONT TOLERATE EVIL

The left says " oh kumbayah! anything goes! tolerate everyone and everything! we need to UNDERSTAND the terrrorists and talk to them! "

the end result of this philopohy is what we currently see in Europe- the Islamists take over and everything becomes a big socialist state which ends up creating much human misery and failure

We are in danger of following that path here

I for one will NEVER EVER TOLERATE EVIL

the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

YOUR FINAL POINT

"they assume that we are the supreme white christian pinnacles of morality and justice and just what God had in mind for the best country in the world. It is a selfish way to live indeed."

We are the kindest, most just, most free nation ever to exist.

We have a role ina making sure that we help the rest of the world get on the same path.

the SELFISH point of view says

"Oh we should just pay attention to ourselves and ignore the world"

This has always been the most selfish ,most pathetic position to take

SOLARMAN
Debate Round No. 2
Rob1Billion

Pro

Well done, Solarman, this has been an even better exchange than I had hoped for. Putting our current debate aside for a moment, I am curious as to why you are the most losingest debater I have seen yet on this website. You are obviously quite skilled, and perhaps it is a combination of your strong opinions and the inefficiencies in the voting standards on here that are to blame for your tremendously bad winning percentage. I have a losing record myself, despite the fact that I usually better my opponents, and I am quite disappointed in many of the voting turnouts in my debates. I lose debates where the other side concedes, forfeits arguments, and simply cannot and will not address my points. It seems that if you want to make a debate to open people's minds and go against the status quo, you are more likely to simply lose in the votes because people won't accept what you have to say.

With that out of the way, let us continue.

You do have some good points, and my argument is going to continue to be that our situation in the middle east is significantly and utterly different than your examples provided.

Nazi's, japan, mussolini, Islamist Axis fighters - This situation was general, old fashioned tanks and bombs warfare. This is NOT what we are dealing with in Iraq. Consider this: If we had went into Japan AFTER they had surrendered, and tried to occupy them and tell them they need to become a democracy, for example, this would be much more like our current dillema. We defeated Iraq, in the manner you are speaking of, already.

"Their ability to recruit has been decimated as well- and their funding sources have been dried up", "The iraqis have turned against them and are ratting them out BECAUSE we stuck it out long enough and earned their trust."

Are these sentences facts? By your logic then, we have already won and should return home anyway! The fact is we have not won, and will not win. If the Islamists were in America pushing down Christians, they would never be able to wipe them out, "decimate" their recruitment powers, or "dr[y]" up their funding sources. Like I said before, Islam is a religion, and idea, that cannot be destroyed by tanks, bombs, or even George Bush himself. Islam will live on in the hearts and minds of the middle easterners and there will always be a need for Islam extremism while our troops are over there. The more we "win" in the sense you are purveying, the stronger their cause becomes and the more we actually do towards promoting anti-western ideologies.

"these people are PURE EVIL. They will strap bombs to children and handicapped people and blow up markets"

Are they? I'm glad you pointed this out, because labeling in this fashion represents how conflicts begin in the first place. They say the same thing about us you know! Now are they right? Are you right? Or are you both WRONG? I would go for the third option. I'm sure they see our fat, rich, white a**es and think we are evil. They point out our lax morality, sexual promiscuity etc. and think we are very bad for the world indeed. They call us evil, we call them evil, and the next thing you know we are at war. My point with all this is that we have our faults as do they, and it is easier to just point them out as "insane" and "evil" then it is to look at our own faults and criticize ourselves. How can you possibly call an entire people evil? Even if you are just talking about the Islamist extremists, it is highly unlikely that they exist as pure evil and there isn't any logic to their situation. I know Christian extremists, that believe everybody except those in thier particular chruch are going to hell, and I see them as sort of the opposite side of the coin to those Islamic extremists. Neither groups are inherently evil; misguided yes, but we cannot label them as evil. You see, labeling people as evil like this is just what Hitler was trying to do. Hitler's Jews are Bush's Islamists. How many germans agreed with hitler that Jews were evil, and should be wiped out? How many Americans agree with Bush that Islamists are evil and should be wiped out? I think it is interesting that both you and I use the Nazi's as examples to back our arguments, and I'm sure something is to be said for that.

"Islam is at its core, NOT a religion, but an INSANE DEATH CULT based on the life of a truly horrible human being"

I think this is a bad way to look at the situation. Surely there is a superior way to address this matter.

"No , the logic we are using is to try and encourage FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY, and the EMPOWERMENT of WOMEN"

We are just going to walk in their country, execute their leader, interfere in their civil war, and push democracy on them. Democracy must be earned. Democracy must be utterly and totally embraced by the entire population to take effect. We cannot just go over there and shove it down their throats and expect them to handle it wisely. Corruption and tyrrany still exist in democracy, especially when the democracy was not totally accepted in the first place. Empowerment of women? Now I would like for women to be treated better in the middle east, but our own history of how we treat women is not a shining one either. Women were unable to vote less than a century ago. Women are shown on television and movies everyday wearing little to no clothing, and used as sex symbols. Britney spears is out there right now setting women's rights back as we speak and showing the Islamists exactly what we have to offer them, and Britney Spears also went on record supporting George Bush and telling the country that she "trusts" our president and believes he is doing the right thing. My points here are that we need to lead by example, not just by force. We have to accept the fact that Iraqi's are different, and maybe they are going to stay different from us indefinitely. I don't think the overwhelming majority of Iraqi's are eagerly awaiting to switching over to our western philosophies right now.

"Why dont you ask the IRAQIS if they want us there?"

This is the right way to approach this situation, but I believe you are not empathizing with the iraqi people effectively. If there could possibly be an accurate poll of whether or not the Iraqi's want us in their country, I seriously doubt any of them at all would say they do.

Well, I think I will end it here, it was nice debating you Solarman, until next time...
Solarman1969

Con

alright my kids asleep and I gotta make dinner for the wife, but I will try and respond in quick fashion here

FROM YOUR ARGUMENTS

(1) Putting our current debate aside for a moment, I am curious as to why you are the most losingest debater I have seen yet on this website. You are obviously quite skilled, and perhaps it is a combination of your strong opinions and the inefficiencies in the voting standards on here that are to blame for your tremendously bad winning percentage.

Answer : I dont give a cr*p what the vote is.

Remember that if people want to do searches, say of just my debates, they can do that way into then future and still vote

So the vote is NEVER OVER

Wisdom changes minds, but ONLY OVER TIME. It needs to PERCOLATE into the brain slowly but surely , through TIME

(2) our situation in the middle east is significantly and utterly different than your examples provided.

No it isnt.

It is EXACLTY as I have painted it

(3) Nazi's, japan, mussolini, Islamist Axis fighters - This situation was general, old fashioned tanks and bombs warfare. This is NOT what we are dealing with in Iraq.

WRONG.

You are thinking of WWI.

thats why we HAD WWII.

How did we end the conflict in Japan?

How about SUBMARINES?

How about ROCKETS, like the V2, reigning SHEER TERROR

WWII WAS the WAR TO END ALL WARS

We will NEVER HAVE another true world conflict like that

We only have the remnants of Islam left to defeat, and then the world will be peaceful

China, Russia and the big commies are pretty much toast and will NOT EVER engage in SHOOTING wars with us

Schmucks like Chavez are MORONS and will be ostracized and then FORGOTTEN by history , like FIDEL will as well.

(3) Consider this: If we had went into Japan AFTER they had surrendered, and tried to occupy them and tell them they need to become a democracy, for example, this would be much more like our current dillema

You need to learn a little history.

We DID move in an OCCUPY Both JAPAN and GERMANY after WWII, and STILL DO.

AND the Phillipines

AND Korea.

AND many many other places.

AND WE SHOULD > PERIOD.

WE NEED TO BE THERE

WE ARE THE ONLY NATION TO EVER WIN WARS AND NOT TAKE ANY LAND

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

(4) I SAID "Their ability to recruit has been decimated as well- and their funding sources have been dried up", "The iraqis have turned against them and are ratting them out BECAUSE we stuck it out long enough and earned their trust."

Are these sentences facts?

yes they are

By your logic then, we have already won and should return home anyway!

Gen Patreus just announced that several divisions ARE coming home, now that the surge has in effect worked as expected, along with the counter-insurgency strategy, which has been VERY effective

Patreus will go down as a GENIUS in this area.

Counter-insurgency is VERY tricky and MUST involve earning the TRUST of the average person in the country.

he has done so SPECTACULARLY and is a HERO

(5) If the Islamists were in America pushing down Christians, they would never be able to wipe them out, "decimate" their recruitment powers, or "dr[y]" up their funding sources. Like I said before, Islam is a religion, and idea, that cannot be destroyed by tanks, bombs, or even George Bush himself. Islam will live on in the hearts and minds of the middle easterners and there will always be a need for Islam extremism while our troops are over there. The more we "win" in the sense you are purveying, the stronger their cause becomes and the more we actually do towards promoting anti-western ideologies.

This is a FALLACY

By your logic , opposing evil only makes evil stronger

I could NOT DISAGREE MORE

There is NO COMPARISION with Christians or Jews furthermore, or any other religion.

Name ONE just ONE suicide bomber or terrorist who is NOT a muslim __________

(6) I SAID "these people are PURE EVIL. They will strap bombs to children and handicapped people and blow up markets"

Are they? I'm glad you pointed this out, because labeling in this fashion represents how conflicts begin in the first place.

WHAT ??????????????????????????????

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?????????????????

(7) They say the same thing about us you know!

WHAT?

THAT WE BOMB CHILDREN IN DAY SCHOOLS?

FLY PLANES INTO BUILDINGS?

STRAP BOMBS TO CHILDREN and SEND THEM TO MURDER CHILDREN ?

MACHINE GUN AIRPORTS?

HIJACK PLANES

please avail yourself of history

http://www.prophetofdoom.net...

(8) I'm sure they see our fat, rich, white a**es and think we are evil. They point out our lax morality, sexual promiscuity etc. and think we are very bad for the world indeed. They call us evil, we call them evil, and the next thing you know we are at war. My point with all this is that we have our faults as do they, and it is easier to just point them out as "insane" and "evil" then it is to look at our own faults and criticize ourselves.

Are you REALLY TRYING TO SAY OUR MORAL DEFICIENCIES ARE CAUSING THEM TO BE INSANELY VIOLENT?

are you excusing this behavior with some sort of MORAL EQUAIVALENCE between pornography and obesity and MURDERING PEOPLE?

Are you INSANE?

(9) How can you possibly call an entire people evil?

I am calling ISLAM A DEATH CULT and INSPIRATIONAL OF PURE EVIL.

I am NOT calling human beings who call themselves "muslim" evil per se.

(10) Even if you are just talking about the Islamist extremists, it is highly unlikely that they exist as pure evil and there isn't any logic to their situation

Duh !

Of COURSE there is NO LOGIC to their situation

duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh!

they are INSANE and EVIL, based on the HIDEOUS DOCTRINE of ISLAM

(11) I know Christian extremists, that believe everybody except those in thier particular chruch are going to hell, and I see them as sort of the opposite side of the coin to those Islamic extremists.

Again, the STUPID, ANNOYING, PATHETIC attempt to smear Christians

Doesnt fly.

No Christian suicide bombers or killers

Mostly just nice, moral people trying to be nice and actually quite charitable

(12) Neither groups are inherently evil; misguided yes, but we cannot label them as evil. You see, labeling people as evil like this is just what Hitler was trying to do. Hitler's Jews are Bush's Islamists. How many germans agreed with hitler that Jews were evil, and should be wiped out? How many Americans agree with Bush that Islamists are evil and should be wiped out? I think it is interesting that both you and I use the Nazi's as examples to back our arguments, and I'm sure something is to be said for that.

Huh?

Bush = Hitler

The Jews = Muslims

Ok , genius

WHERE ARE BUSHS CONCENTRATION CAMPS

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Where is the evil doctors doing medical experiments on prisoners like Mengele?

You truly are stupid to make such a comparison

HITLER AND THE MUSLIMS ARE ON THE SAME TEAM - EVIL

proof

http://www.prophetofdoom.net...

http://www.prophetofdoom.net...

(13) The fact is we have not won, and will not win.

Wrong . We are winning and will win

You can be a loser over in the corner if you want

We will save your butts - again

(14) We are just going to walk in their country, execute their leader, interfere in their civil war, and push democracy on them. Democracy must be earned. Democracy must be utterly and totally embraced by the entire population to take effect. We cannot just go over there and shove it down their throats and expect them to handle it wisely.

No , THEY Hung Saddam. After a legthy TRIAL

And We have pushed democracy on Germany and Japan with GREAT results

The Afganis and Iraqis FREE
Debate Round No. 3
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
well, this last fall I thought I was going to be going into physics, but the math got overwhelming and I got some really bad grades. I'm thinking law now; although still cherish my mathematics knowledge and hope I can apply it in the future.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
persevere- persevere

try and have FUN doing math- it will help you to do well

that was always my secret - i loved it

good luck

SOLAR
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
Indeed. That is why I am in the process of signing up for intermediate algebra for the 3rd time! I suck at math but I am going to get that A this time if it kills me!
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
mathematics is the most important subject in school

by far

If you can do math well and think critically and analytically, you will go far
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
Oh yes, those are some fascinating subjects. I read "A Brief History of Time" and I have loved that stuff ever since. I even tried entering physics in school, because I was so into it. BIG MISTAKE. It's one thing to read about it, another to grapple with the mathematics.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
type "particle physics" into Wikipedia and do some links from there

I have been researching now for a couple of years on the links - TOTALLY FASCINATING

quarks

colours

Mesons and Bosons

fundemental particles

forces

incredible!
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
Well, I have read a couple of popular books on the subject... I tried my hand in physics in late 2007 (big mistake). I think I understand most of the general concepts... was there one you had in mind?
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Iran is next

Iraq is now our second ally along with Israel

As you study the situation you will see my point of view (I didnt make it up, but got it from very knowledgeable people)

dont discount prophetofdoom.net- it is VERY accurate and comprehensive

If you really want to get into this

At an unimaginably high heat level, Gravity, nuclear forces, and electromagnetism become one "grand unification energy". I think that Christianity's metaphysical concepts, and science's as well, become one in this way. At a low energy they are quite distinct

study particle physics
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
continued from below

I was expecting to just be able to find some great survey to tell me whether the Iraqies really want us there or not, or some magical process indicator to tell me how much good vs. bad we have incurred in the region. I will be continuing my research, but without actually visiting Iraq it may be impossible to do more than extense theorizing about our consequences there. All we can do is examine our motives, and admittingly, both Republicans and Democrats consider their motives good/true, so history will unfortunately/probably be the way we settle this argument. My Christian friend is also a Republican, and we agreed that in fifty years, Iraq will probably be a democratic, key-player nation and no one is going to care about the fuss us Democrats put up about Bush and his war. If that is the case, then I guess you will have won this argument Solarman, but the Democrats just might win this next election and pull us out of the region... perhaps the upcoming civil war will do more good than harm (like ours) and things will turn out OK. In that case, Iraq's growth to democracy will be seen as a two step process
1) Republicans 5-year war
2) Democrats ending it, pulling out, causing civil war 523 Characters Remaining
3) ???Iraqies pick up pieces and become superpower???
Is this the recipe for democracy in the middle east? Perhaps it is. Since neither the Reps or Dems are 100% happy or 100% dissatisfied with this recipe, it sounds like the perfect mix. What are your thoughts?
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
I had to read the QuRan in my humanities 1 class [I got a C in that class so I will be retaking it, QuRan and all, this summer :)]. To me, it was just a Bible 2.0 for muslims. Was it a hot load of BS? Sure. But, to me, not any more than the christian bible is. The Christian Bible is a bunch of really good life lessons, mixed with some good stories, Jesus' life story, and a bunch of manmade metaphysical pollution. I have a Christian friend who told me that "Since God exists, he would not let the Bible be polluted" (in the way I am describing). I see now that science, with it's theories (that can never pass that 99.99% certainty), isn't any more convincing to Christians than a book of fiction (bible) is to scientists. In the end (to make a 1 hour conversation short), Christians and scientists are pretty much on the same level, I say grugingly. The more we got into really hashing out things, the more I realized that we were both saying the same thing. Science has a theory (of the natural forces) that describes how magnetism and electricity are actually the same force, and that at a high enough energy, distinct things (forces) become the same exact thing. At an unimaginably high heat level, Gravity, nuclear forces, and electromagnetism become one "grand unification energy". I think that Christianity's metaphysical concepts, and science's as well, become one in this way. At a low energy they are quite distinct. But when you really get into hashing out the metaphysical implications of each, they blend together. There is no difference between intelligent design and creation from happenstance. There may be levels of happenstance beyond God or levels of intelligent design beyond the big bang and the theory of evolution.

Anyway, with that said, I am still searching for the truth in this war. My initial search was not what I thought (the BIG questions aren't answered clearly in the research process, I should have known it would be harder)
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Vote Placed by Rob1Billion 8 years ago
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