The Instigator
BystanderLC
Pro (for)
Losing
19 Points
The Contender
Korashk
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points

Sonic will not lose to Mario.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/1/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,974 times Debate No: 12209
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (10)

 

BystanderLC

Pro

This is my first debate so forgive me if I'd like to do an overdone topic. It is popular and thanks to the contribution of Brawl and the Olympic series, fans cannot help but stand their ground when it comes to the competition of these two well known mascots.

I plan to use two Internet sources and the many Sonic games I have played. Concept Mobius is a Sonic fansite. The link below will lead you to Sonic's "Real Bio" stating his weaknesses and strengths. I may not fully agree with the website, but should I not, I will back my disagreements with proof.
http://concept-mobius.technoguild.com...

youtube.com

There's nothing more truthful than youtube. Except for the fan videos, but I'm pretty sure a person differentiate between official and fan-made.

To start off my argument, I will state the obvious. Sonic has the better speed, the stronger capabilities, and even the ability to outjump Mario.

1) Speed
Most evident in recent games, it has become an undeniable fact that Sonic can go at intense speeds in a matter of seconds. Mario would require a build-up to run his fastest at best and even then, he is lacking far behind Sonic's normal pace.

2) Strength
The Homing Attack: Sonic gains an instant burst of speed in mid-air to attack the closest enemy. Say he tries this on a regular machine. The machine meets instant death and the ability to do another homing attack on the next closest machine. Another instant death for the machine. Sonic has no weakness here.

3) Jumping
Yes, Mario can jump. Wall jump. Triple Jump. But Sonic's range of jump meets Mario's standard and expands. The wall jump? He can do it too! (Sonic Unleashed) The triple jump? He can make a blue tornado (Sonic Heroes) to gain that little extra boost. That freaking mile-high jump where Sonic manages to pull off speed momentum? It looks even cooler in the cutscenes. Sonic can outjump Mario.

Conclusion: Sonic can outrun, overpower, and outjump Mario easy.
Korashk

Con

I apologize for posting so late. I have been doing a lot of "end of the year" stuff for school.

I will make refutations and elaborate on my points in round two, but for now here's my case.

Mario, while not as physically capable as Sonic has many things that would allow him to emerge victorious in a fight. These are his upgrades such as the fire flower, leaf, and star power.

Again, I apologize to my opponent, but I'm really busy and will elaborate in round two.
Debate Round No. 1
BystanderLC

Pro

I understand, I am in the same situation as well (with strong encouragements of procrastination).

If we are to allow upgrades into the mix, I will go on to say that Mario is not the only one with such options. However, I'd like to refrain using as many as possible because there are only three rounds in this debate and I do not know how to edit these things. Maybe another debate?

The Fire Flower. I believe the item in question grants Mario the ability to shoot fireballs. Or are you referring to the one in Super Smash Bros series where it acts more of a flamethrower?

I will argue the case for the first option since that's more traditional for a Mario game. I will also believe that Mario can only shoot two fireballs at a time and the said projectile is lethal enough to cause instant death to Goombas, Piranha Plants, and defy the effects of water. However, boss characters such as Bowser, require more fireballs to lose. Another flaw is that Mario only shoots at a low angle I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Sonic has dodged bullets, missiles, and even giant laser beams in 3D and 2D gameplay. The most effective way I found to dodge such projectiles are spin dash and the homing attack. I use the spin dash because it's more fun. In 3D, one would just use spin dash to go left or right of the fireball. In 2D, one would stick to the homing attack or just jump. Should Mario try such a small projectile, Sonic could evade the fireball with said methods and attack Mario.

Even if one fireball reached Sonic, there is a small time for Sonic to be invincible in the event he is blinking. This holds true for many video game characters. However, what makes Sonic special is his rings. One ring keeps him alive. This holds especially true in boss battles. A fireball would cause him to lose all his rings, but it cannot prevent the fact that Sonic can get it back.

The Leaf... I will allow the opponent to elaborate on this item for I have no idea what he is referring to. Mario items tend to be unpredictable to the user.

Star Power. The item in question makes Mario invincible. I will state two countermeasures and two flaws.

Countermeasure & flaw 1) Sonic has a item of his own that can make him invincible. This item has a unique theme in many, if not every, Sonic game. The question is, if both characters use such a Invincible power, what would happen? Obviously, Sonic. In 2D and 3D games of Sonic, it is just as rare as it is in Mario. However, Mario games require the player to chase after it even after finding it, because the star bounces away. Sonic just needs to find the item and give it a hit.

Countermeasure & flaw 2) Time. I do not know the specific time for every version of the invincibility item. If my opponent would like to look that up or figure it out, more power to him. Regardless, its main flaw is its use of time. Unless we're both hackers, the invincibility won't last long. However, Sonic makes up for this in speed. This is my statement:

If Mario is invincible, Mario cannot outrun Sonic. If Mario cannot outrun Sonic, Mario cannot touch him. (See youtube video for a visual interpretation of my statement. I am not using this for reference to official Mario games, I'm using it to show an example)

Let's try reversing the role.

If Sonic is invincible, Sonic could run Mario over. If Sonic can outrun Mario, Mario is roadkill. (See Round 1's explanation of Sonic's speed)

Let the audience know that I have assumed two of the items that my opponent suggested. These items may have a different version in another Mario game (I don't know every Mario game and item). Should my assumptions be wrong, let my opponent correct me of their use. However, correction requires proof.
Korashk

Con

I have figured out a way to turn this debate from hypothetical to literal. I drop all of my previous points and will now refer my opponent to the video that I have graciously provided.

In it is indisputable proof that Sonic will in fact lose to Mario. For those of you unable to view videos for some reason I will offer a commentary of the scenario. It is a video of a match between two level nine computer controlled characters in the video game Super Smash Brothers: Brawl.

All of the items have been turned off so that the characters are fighting using only their skills which includes those listed by my opponent for Sonic. In addition to no items being used they are fighting on a stage that is only a flat surface with no environmental factors that could contribute to their deaths and they both only have one life to work with.

My opponent and the audience can clearly see that in a fair fight against equal level computer controlled characters, no items, and no dangerous environmental factors >>>Sonic will in fact lost to Mario<<< at least some of the time.

The resolution is negated. I await my opponent's response.

[1] Video
Debate Round No. 2
BystanderLC

Pro

So I see your point is to not make Mario win, but to see Sonic lose once and you have a video to illustrate the point. It's an unexpected (and delayed) approach, but it is still a flawed approach.

My opponent emphasized at the fact that it is a fair fight. Level 9 each. One life. No items. And a standard flat stage otherwise known as "Final Destination."

However, from my perspective I see that this video does not represent a fair fight.

1) Direct your attention to Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games. It is a collection of twenty-four events based on the Olympic Games. Each character had its own stats on Speed, Power, Skill and All-Around. Almost all Sonic characters had their abilities stripped dramatically to make it a fair game. Who is to say Super Smash Bros Brawl did not do the same? From the transition from its prequel, Super Smash Bros Melee, to the game we call Brawl, fans have noticed a considerable change between the strengths and weaknesses of each character. Needless to say, some characters were nerfed. The link below will show what fans believe were nerfed in Brawl.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...

Given that fact, I'd like the audience to question Mario's strength. He is the mascot of Nintendo. He is the symbolic character that unites these games together as a fighter. Did the creators of Brawl strengthen his abilities so that he can do battle with the other characters? I would say yes. They intentionally made Mario balanced in Brawl's universe to welcome newcomers to the series and the Mario fans, because he's the mascot.

And it's not only Mario. We see Princess Peach in the game who has an unexpected moveset that can demolish and obliterate Bowser. This is a grave contradiction in the Mario universe because Princess Peach is the one captured, not the heroine. If she could fend for herself, why would she be so easily captured?

2) Sonic was a very late addition to the game's website Super Smash Bros Dojo. He was in popular demand as well as popular hate. Also, if you check Subspace Emissary, Sonic is introduced right after the Tabuu tries to summon some sort of beam. Make matters worse, his special moves lost a lot of game physics.

Standard Special - Homing Attack. Sonic can only attack one character at a time as apposed to the robot combo chains that I mentioned in round one and has a delay.
Side Special - Spin Dash. Sonic can spin dash... in the air? The spin dash has a little hop before the action. In a normal Sonic game, spin dash was faster, stronger to cause instant death to minor enemies, and could only be performed on the ground.
Up Special - Spring Jump. This is one of the only moves that does not feature damage (I believe Jigglypuff is the other one). Not to mention, other characters can use the Spring Jump for a brief time.
Down Special - Spin Charge. An attempted replica of the actual spin dash, but lacks in strength. Not to mention, they already got the spin dash as a side special. Would it not make sense to make Sonic's moveset more varied? The other characters had far more variety in their special moveset.

Standard, Side, and Down Special are practically the same thing, but in different directions.

Were the Brawl creators rushing ideas when they made Sonic? Or were they intentionally limiting Sonic's abilities to balance him out, just as they have done with the rest of the cast?

In terms of a fair match, Brawl is far from it if it nerfs Sonic's qualities and improves Mario's features.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I have presented three rounds of debate on how Sonic can prove himself an impossible-to-defeat foe to Mario. My opponent has unfortunately only revealed no methods in how Mario can win, but a video of a game that acts more of a truly enjoyable tribute to Nintendo fans than a crossover that mimics flawless gameplay physics and features.
Korashk

Con

.
.
.

I thank my opponent for his extremely timely response and again apologize for my comparatively slow ones.

~~~~~~
Rebuttals
~~~~~~

///1) Direct your attention to Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games. It is a collection of twenty-four events based on the Olympic Games...///

Here my opponent makes an invalid comparison. Not only is my opponent comparing the game-play from one game to that of another separate one but there is also no objective way to gauge the abilities of Sonic to those of Mario on that game.

///Did the creators of Brawl strengthen his abilities so that he can do battle with the other characters? I would say yes.///

This point is mere conjecture made by my opponent with no evidence given to support it. I can just as easily say that they did not beef up Mario's abilities.

///And it's not only Mario. We see Princess Peach in the game who has an unexpected moveset that can demolish and obliterate Bowser...///

I don't see what this has to do with the debate. It is about Mario and Sonic, not Peach and Bowser.

///Were the Brawl creators rushing ideas when they made Sonic? Or were they intentionally limiting Sonic's abilities to balance him out, just as they have done with the rest of the cast?///

More conjecture, my opponent has no evidence to show that this is the case.

///Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I have presented three rounds of debate on how Sonic can prove himself an impossible-to-defeat foe to Mario. My opponent has unfortunately only revealed no methods in how Mario can win, but a video of a game that acts more of a truly enjoyable tribute to Nintendo fans than a crossover that mimics flawless gameplay physics and features.///

I would like to direct the audience to the resolution of the debate. >>>Sonic WILL NOT Lose to Mario<<< My opponent has gone out of his way to try and show that the provided video is invalid. This is just to try and throw you off of the fact that the debate resolution has been NEGATED. Sonic clearly loses to Mario in the provided video. I would like to see some evidence that could possibly do more to show how the two match up against each other. The problem with this wish is that there currently is not any other way to objectively compare the two in terms of fighting ability.

The resolution is an absolute. >>>Sonic WILL NOT Lose to Mario<<< The resolution is not ambiguous and no terms were provided in the opening round for either of us to follow. I will reiterate, the evidence provided by me is the most objective way to conduct a battle between Sonic and Mario. Whether or not the fight was a fair one is left to the imagination, but my opponent has provided no actual evidence that shows that it wasn't. Even if he did it is not my responsibility to negate a resolution that was not stated or agreed upon before the debate's resolution. It was my opponent's responsibility in this debate to affirm the resolution in a way that I could not counter. He has neglected this responsibility and I have provided evidence that is impossible t counter. I urge a Con vote.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by omelet 6 years ago
omelet
RFD

Conduct: PRO. CON not only didn't really give an argument in R1, but he also threw it away and smuggled in a completely different argument in R2.

Sp/Gr: TIE. Nothing too noticeable.

Args: PRO. I agreed with the point that they rebalance characters in SSB, and so their performance may not be representative of the actual characters. In SSB, as PRO points out, Peach could beat Bowser, where the unmodified Peach would not stand a chance against Bowser. CON did not demonstrate that Mario/Sonic had not been rebalanced in the game, so CON's only argument was essentially negated.

CON did not address PRO's argument, so PRO's argument stood.

Sources: Tie. One semi-relevant source each.
Posted by Korashk 6 years ago
Korashk
Votebombing is basically when a person unjustly gives one side all seven points. It's something that can happen to any debate.
Posted by BystanderLC 6 years ago
BystanderLC
So we can vote for ourselves. That's cool, but it's too easy to abuse. I'd rather prefer it that we can vote, but it's nullified or something of the sort. By the way, I've been hearing of a thing called "Vote bombing?" What does is that and should I be afraid of its use in this debate?

Anyway, to mimic my opponent as a courtesy - RFD:

Conduct: Tie, I wouldn't know how to vote on this?

Spelling/Grammar: Tie. I'm really nitpicky about this, just out of habit. Though, I saw one typo in my opponent's argument and a missing comma from round one, I saw that I forgotten to make my "a" to "an" in two instances. It's even here, so a tie.

Argument: Pro. My opponent has not addressed all of my points. To avoid a continuation debate in the comments section and to avert any changes in our audience's decision, I will not say which points. The voting is on the three rounds of debate, not of one in the comments section.

Sources: Tie. I do not think Brawl is valid evidence, but my opponent voted tie in this. I think I'm somewhat biased to my opinion and argument, so I will vote tie on this.
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
lol @ Korashk's 'evidence'.
Posted by Korashk 6 years ago
Korashk
RFD (Reasons For Decision):

Conduct: Tie, this was in my opinion a very civil debate.
Sp/Gr: Tie, I didn't notice any mistakes significant enough to warrant granting points in this category.
Args: Con, for reasons outlined in the final round of the debate.
Sources: Tie, few sources were used by either side and those presented were used in an effective manner.
Posted by xxdarkxx 6 years ago
xxdarkxx
EVERYBODY WATCH THE VIDEO ON YOUTUBE RATHER THEN IN THE EMBEDDED FORM, hence double click.

lulz
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
Hmm...I'd put my money on Sonic, but we'll see.
Posted by Korashk 6 years ago
Korashk
Basically just be polite, organize your arguments in a way that is reader-friendly, cite your sources, and address most of your opponent's points and you'll do fine.

It looks as if you did all of that already.
Posted by BystanderLC 6 years ago
BystanderLC
So there's a comment section on this site... and the front page links to this debate? Cool.

I think my case is pretty strong. Sonic is freaking god-like for a video game character. I'd just hate to try a Sonic vs Shadow debate, because Shadow's speed is controversial and any person can abuse that Chaos Control argument.

Anyone got any tips for me since I'm new? Like rules of etiquette or stuff like that? I see people referring to people as "opponents." I tried putting stuff in <b>[b]bold[/b]</b>, but that didn't work.
10 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Hurstman 6 years ago
Hurstman
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Vote Placed by belle 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by omelet 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by zircle_of_life 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by BystanderLC 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by Shestakov 6 years ago
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