The Instigator
philosphical
Pro (for)
Losing
29 Points
The Contender
Danielle
Con (against)
Winning
37 Points

Sonnet debate

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/12/2009 Category: Arts
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,707 times Debate No: 9674
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (18)
Votes (11)

 

philosphical

Pro

For anyone who doesn't know what a sonnet is:

There are three traditional forms of sonnets, rather there are two and a variant that makes the third and has commonly come to be accepted as a third form.
First it is important to point out that a sonnet is a lyric poem with a topic that is of a more romantic bent. The form of a sonnet is in its name which is derived from Italian, sonnet, and Occitan, sonnet, both meaning literally little song.

There is the Italian sonnet, and the Shakespearean sonnet.

RULES
--------
1. Both debaters will be using the Shakespearean version of the sonnet.
The reason for this is because these sonnets are much simpler to compose, follow, and make sense of, and are generally less complex.
2. Each sonnet will be made up of fourteen lines, each line with only ten syllables.
3. Words such as "and, or, but, as, so, if, then, when, or which" should not appear at the beginnings of lines. Each line starts capitalized.
4. The first four lines follow the a-b-a-b line scheme and are a introduction to your sonnet. The next four lines must follow the c-d-c-d rhyme scheme, and must be used as a build up in the plot of your sonnet with a climatic cliff hanger at the end of these four lines. The next four lines must follow the rhyme scheme of e-f-e-f. The last four set of lines must be used as the conclusion, which would be a resolution to the climax that occurs in the end of the second four set of lines. The last two lines of your sonnet must rhyme. These last two lines, or the rhyming couplet, at the end of your sonnet is where we lay out the "lesson" the reader is intended to learn by the end of your sonnet. This rule is pretty long, and I am sure my opponent already knows this format. This was purely for the intent of the readers who may not know the format of a English (Shakespearean) sonnet.
5. This fifth and final rule should not effect judging in anyway, and is mainly just for fun. Both debaters must try and guess at the meaning of their opposers sonnets. If their guess was wrong, the opponent must state the real meaning to their sonnet in their next rebuttal. The user getting a guess at the poem wrong, should not effect the readers vote in the slightest, and all focus should be on the creativity of the sonnet itself.

Thankyou, Lwerd, for offering up to take this debate. I am sure that it will be fun and inspiring for both us and the readers. With that said I will begin.

I need not be here, there is no reason,
For my life's fair has been controlled and just;
This place right now is committing treason,
The will for me to be here lacks its trust,
The eager medicine I highly need,
Is still hiding from my lack of want.
Yes, the cure for my hungry soul to feed,
Shows how easily I fall for the taunt,
Now I notice the greatness this brings me:
Pride aside, I can finally see clearly,
My life has finally shown me the key!
It's such a relief, my soul is weary,
I am truly free and truly living,
And my life's sweet fruit is always giving!

I look forward to my opponents response.

Thankyou
-philosophical
Danielle

Con

I'd first like to begin by thanking Pro for starting this interesting and creative debate, and commend him on his well written sonnet! That said, I'll take a shot here and guess that his sonnet was about him overcoming some type of temptation. I cannot figure out exactly what that temptation is/was (maybe you're not supposed to?). It would appear as if Pro is saying that he need not be "here," though where 'here' is remains a mystery. However, 'here' is apparently committing treason i.e. a betrayal of some kind. I hope Pro can expand on its meaning at some point later in the debate. Regardless, the sonnet sounds like it has a happy ending :)

Moving on, I agree to the proposed rules of the debate; however, noticed some discrepancies opponent's post -- First, Pro notes in Rule #3 that a line should not start with the word "And." However, you'll notice that my opponent actually begins the 14th line of his sonnet with the word "And." Also, Pro also states that each line can only have 10 syllables. In looking closely, however, you'll notice that his 6th line has only 9 syllables, and his 10th line has 11 syllables. Nevertheless! Pro's sonnet was really impressive and I really don't care about those minor violations lol. I look forward to a really fun debate and hope to do more of something like this in the future. Good luck, Pro!

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My Eloquent words mask the trap's depart
Uncontrollable with a certainty
So shards never miss her targeted heart
A perfume so sweet her eyes could not see
Her soul would be all mine through candied grace
We'd move to closer, more personal things
Like heated contact; inadequate space
To my lips movement her sanity clings
Natural phenomenons like violent wind
Could not confine my charming advances
Staggering with verbose shackles she's pinned
My lies dressed in lace; forging romances
Though my flourished venom is arresting
Seems I'm the one weak without protesting
Debate Round No. 1
philosphical

Pro

First off, I would like to apologize for the errors in my sonnet. I had previously written it up before posting it on here, and I just realized that I made typos.

The 'and' in the last line was used as a continuation rather than a conjunction, separating words. The word 'and' in line fourteen was not used as a pause between that line and another. Therefore the and in the line starter, should be looked at differently. The same principle applies, to the 'so' that was used in your line three. Its is not being used as a sentence pause, therefore the 'so' is justified.

As for the syllable errors:

Line six: There was supposed to be an "It" before the is.
"It is still hiding from my lack of want".

Line ten: 'Finally was supposed to be 'Finely'. I mis-read my own horrible handwriting yet again.
"Pride aside, I can finely see clearly"

With that said, I would like to say my opponent did a fabulous job at guessing at the sonnet. For the most part, she was pretty close.
Here is my Sonnet translation:
I was recently forced into a training class called "the great life foundation" by some close friends of mine. I was really adamant about not going, thinking my life was already great. But they were persistent in having me take it, thus the first four lines of my sonnet.
The next four lines, basically tell how I was slowly learning that it was I myself, who was un-open to the idea of change. I was slowly realizing that I needed the training more than anything, I was just too in-secure to admit it.
The third set of four lines describe the greatness I have achieved, and seen through taking this amazing class, and how I finally learned what I had been missing out on life. The concluding two lines show how I am applying that which I have learned into my life.

Now I will try to decipher TheLwerds amazing sonnet. (BTW line nine is 11 syllables) :)

This poem shows me the writers usual 'would be' discomfort in appealing to a certain woman, slowly dissipating, as the writers love takes over mind, and let's the users 'eloquent words mask the traps depart'.
The writer has apparently such strong emotions for her lover, that it cannot be contained, and they are certain that this love is true.
The shards, I am assuming, represent the writers feelings, that are directed at the lover.
The love is strong, but could never be seen at it's full potential, thus the perfume that cannot be seen.
Nearing the end of this poem, the writer expresses guilt, at the un-needed aggression towards the other. The writer feels that they them self, are the weak one, for using such cruelties against one so fair and innocent.

I am not entirely sure I got anywhere close to establishing the meaning to the poem, but it was quite interesting. I think of sonnets as mysteries that are fun to solve. I look forward to hearing this wonderful sonnet defined!

I will now start my next sonnet.

A dark room now filled with most sobbing tears
Waits for a detonation to its fire
The voting was known to come to cause fear
For only three, would safety require
Slowly, each one placed a most solemn vote
Each on stared deep into the others eyes
Proceeding to tell them their fateful dote
Their beautiful faces said their good-byes
Strength and love then did fill my heart for him
Past the hurt came a deep realization
The only way not to lose was to win
My decision marked immunization
Ones love for thyself shows unduly love
And reaches all limits from the above.
Danielle

Con

Thanks, Pro!

First, I thought your last sonnet was truly very well done. You're continuing to impress me, Phil - Keep up the good work! Second, the word 'natural' has 2 pronunciations, one of which only has 2 syllables (look it up in the dictionary, folks), so therefore all of my lines in the last round were actually 10 syllables... Haha but like I said, I was just kidding about that anyway, and don't really care about that little discrepancy at all. Moving on, I'll clarify what my last sonnet was about:

The writer is, quite frankly, a femme fatale - charming and destroying every woman in her wake. The trap's depart represents the letting go of the trap into the world, readily masked in order to never miss the target with "shards" meaning vicious intent. The perfume so sweet represents the charm; the masking of the viciousness that the victim can not see. The writer is illustrating how she is stealing the woman - her soul and her mind - so easily and so viciously. It then continues to show how the writer has the woman at her complete mercy; that not even something as powerful as violent wind could stop her. Afalse romance ensuing and the woman is done for, as her soul is finally arrested in the writer's venom. She is a slave to her (the writer's) charms. The writer finally realizes that in the end, she is actually the slave to her own passions, as she is dependent on her "victim" to fulfill her vile needs.

My interpretation of Pro's sonnet is as follows:

The writer is in some tense or volatile situation where the outcome is dependent upon a specific decision made by at least three persons. After the vote was cast, the writer feels some sense of forgiveness or understanding of a certain someone (maybe the one affected by the vote). The writer implies that he made some sort of decision, so maybe he was one of the people who helped cast the vote. In saying "my decision marked immunization," maybe the writer was hinting at what vote he gave or what it entailed. The writer concludes by saying that love for one's self is unnecessary or inappropriate, and reaches "all limits from the above" (maybe spiritual?).

My 2nd Sonnet:

I feel that if I close my eyes forever
The darkness will become only a fear
I had once upon a time whenever
In a foreign land far away from here
Oh good mercy plagued by my sweet madness
The insanity my body's coping
Like a shiver to warm the grim sadness
Misguided survival for the hoping
In my day I have made dreadful choices
In my haste to mask the painfully real
Sold my eyes, my mind, my freedom, my voice
All to make the devil's business deal
I found no flames in death, but with great fright!
My hell was never seeing heaven's light!
Debate Round No. 2
philosphical

Pro

The use of 'natural' in my sonnet only has two syllables. Yes there is two different pronunciations, but the sense i was using it was obviously the normal one, in which the 'u' is not pronounced. 'Nat-ral' = 2 syllables :)

Also my opponents line one, is eleven syllables. Line twelve, is nine syllables. But an amazing poem, none-the-less.

My opponent again was really close on her interpretation.
This sonnet was about an excercise we did in the 'greatlife', called lifeboat. Basically everyone had to stand in a cirle, and were each handed three slips of paper. The lights were dimmed, and we were put in a fake scenario. There was supposedly bombs attached to each one of the doors, and anyone who tried to escape would die. Luckily there was a bomb shelter underneath the facility, however it could only hold three individuals. We each then had to vote the three individuals we thought should live, with our peices of paper. This sonnet was an account of this experience. The goal of the activity, was too see if we felt enough love for ourself, to vote for ourselves to live.

Here is my interpretation of my opponents sonnet.

This poem to me seems as if the writer is feeling immense guilt at how they have lived there life, and certain decisions they have made. Darkness seems to have developed the writers heart and mind, and it seems as if the writer seeks some sort of redemption from guilt. "misguided survival for the hoping" The writer seems to be seeking an out from the problem, but can find none, and is haunting them.
Really good sonnet theLwerd ;-)

Now to my next sonnet

The day has been imprinted on my mind
Confusion and hurt were all I could feel
The look on their faces was far from kind
I could not distinguish if this was real
The same happens after eleven years
I have to wonder: What is wrong with me?
What i hoped ended re-affirmed my fears
Why this was happening, i could not see
Why must she i love most, suffer the worst?
The girl i love most, is living dispair
Will this be the last? It is not the first
Though to seek the answer, we did not dare
Now i must ask myself if love exists
Refraining to put myself on that list
Danielle

Con

[ Auxiliary Issues ]

Actually, I think my 12th line is fine if you consider business to have 3 syllables...? But anyway, I stopped being a syllable Nazi. Regardless, I can assure you that my third sonnet is fine. Also, Pro's sonnet didn't seem to follow the A-B-A-B-C-D-C-D rhyme scheme, but again, these are minor issues and I'd rather concentrate on the actual quality of the poetry :)

[ My Second Sonnet's Meaning ]

I must say that Pro was actually off base with this interpretation. He seems to think that my poem expressed a sense of guilt about my life choices, or expressed sentiments of my own misguidance. I hope that Pro didn't think I was embracing God in my poem. In fact, I did the opposite - reject the idea of religion. Here's an explanation:

The subject of my sonnet is closing their eyes to the actual nature of things, hoping that there is some sort of grand ecstasy to life that will take all of the pain and truth away. The subject resorts to closing their eyes to nature and letting an "insanity" or fantasy world take hold in which they feel religion (in this case Christianity) will take them away from all of their dreadful choices and actions - through the power, it seems, of Christ. Christ was never directly said, but very much implied.

Moving on, the darkness is their realization of existence, and that it might not actually have a fantasy meaning behind it. The fantasy world - or religion - in which they use to cope with their realization of this is very much fake and just a reaction to blind themselves from the pain, which is why I said "like a shiver to warm the grim sadness."

In short, the subject sells their mind and humanity to make a deal that the devil conducts all of the bad business in the world. Unfortunately for the author, they do not face what they come to fear most from their fantasy world (hell), but find a new hell: that they can no longer fight their first realization - that there is no fantasy world (religion/Christ) - and they are very much a natural part of nature and human.

It is a poem of existentialism.

[ Interpretation of Pro's Sonnet ]

Pro seems to be discussing a situation of heart-break, particularly a break-up though not necessarily. Regardless of the circumstance, there seems to be the termination of an important relationship that Pro cannot forget. The person in the poem opposite the subject seems to have acted harshly, which caused Pro to question himself and his values. He is losing someone he loves to something beyond his control. In the end, he questions whether or not true love can even exist, since it always seems to end so painfully (and pain is the opposite of love).

[ My Third Sonnet ]

Beauty is truth as our nature implies;
Blissful: Ignorance in requisition.
Cloaking the axiom in clever guise;
A libertine without superstition.
Pregnant are the promises of a god;
Disciples: beatitudes receiving.
A lord masked in a miscreant's facade;
No omniscience to disbelieving.
If god's a ship in an ocean of lies,
Then I am the captain seeking the shore.
Instead of fostering our soul's demise,
He's whispering the tall-tales of yore.
My spirit endures the phantom raping,
Whilst beauty and truth they are escaping.
Debate Round No. 3
philosphical

Pro

[ Auxiliary Issues ]
"But anyway, I stopped being a syllable Nazi"

Oh no worries. Just thought I'd like to point out the same things as you so kindly pointed out for for me.
:)

"Pro's sonnet didn't seem to follow the A-B-A-B-C-D-C-D rhyme scheme"

No? Hmm... How so? I do believe that my third sonnet followed the correct order of a-b-a-b-c-d-c-d-e-f-e-f.
In this sonnet, I also do believe line 12, and 6 are nine syllables.

[second sonnet mis-interperation]

Ah my bad. I guess I wasn't even close to getting right. But just for clarification, I did not presume religion was in the sonnet.

[My opponents interpretation of my poem]
You basically nailed it!
This sonnet was kind of self explanatory, but it's purpose was to show the heartache a child can feel from experiencing divorce. In this sonnets particular case, the person was effected not only once, but twice by divorce, thus is the reason for him questioning loves existence.
The girl mentioned in the sonnet, is the victim's sister, in whom he fears may be affected to a more harsh degree than he himself, thus the lines "Why must she i love most, suffer the worst?
The girl i love most, is living dispair"

[ My opponents sonnet's meaning]

This poem, leads me to think that this is about religion in some aspect. I cannot tell on whether it is using religion as a good think, or a bad thing, but it definitely is referring to it in some sense. Then again i could be wrong. I have been led to this conclusion by words such as god, disciples, lord, omniscience, and the use in which they are put in.
"Beauty is truth, as our nature implies" and "Whilst beauty and truth they are escaping." These two lines placed at the beginning and end of the poess, seem to correlate with each other. Again this is probably completely wrong, but the first sounds like the writers dis-content with the fact that, beauty is over rules every aspect of wit, and personality.
That is my best guess, though probably wrong.

Now i will do my next sonnet.

How have you managed to control my thoughts?
All day long I think of a love this true.
Without you in my life I'd be distraught.
For what and who would I be without you?
Your mischievious smile makes my heart melt.
Honey colored eyes show feelings untold
Fire raging of desire I have felt
But you, oh so beautiful, stay controlled.
I shouldn't worry of your intentions
Our future is all in God's main design.
Love's workings are beyond comprehension
Down the road our lives may still intertwine.
In darkness you are my shimmering light.
Being loved by you feels more than just right.
Danielle

Con

Danielle forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
philosphical

Pro

When light rain falls from the clear cloudless sky
I think I see the heavens open wide
And it makes me want to cry and ask why
The things that need be spoken and decide
I now realize how much that I have lied
I have done many things that may be wrong
Still you just have to know that I have tried
I know that I have to be really strong.
And I hope your forgiveness won't be long
Sometimes we all hide the things that we feel.
I will wait until the day is long gone
Can I know and hope you love me still?
Is there any forgiveness in your heart?
Without it we can't make a brand new start.
Danielle

Con

I'd like to begin by thanking my opponent for this unique debate experience :)

That said, I apologize for forfeiting a round -- I was traveling back to the East Coast. As such, I am willing to accept any penalty from voters (typically a deduction of conduct points) for missing the round. Also, I'll respond to Pro's sonnets. I suspect that his 4th sonnet was about loving a woman, and his 5th sonnet was about repenting, probably to God.

As for my sonnets, my 3rd one was also about God. Basically it explains that God can't really exist, and that believers live in ignorant bliss and don't care enough about the truth, or aren't brave enough to admit the falsities of God like a libertine (free-thinker) does. If God were all-powerful and all-good, he would enlighten everyone instead of making believing in him a "test." I am seeking true enlightenment, and if God was the truthful vessel (the way to salvation), He would make that apparent instead of allowing us to be our own worst enemies (disbelievers) by not making any sense at all (or making the real truth apparent to us). It concludes by saying that I endure the phantom raping (my life and others being deterred and inhibited by a God that doesn't really exist) while the real truth about the universe and the beauty it holds becomes irrelevant, because people are too occupied with a non-existent Christian God.

Regarding my last two sonnets, I'll provide a quick explanation since Pro won't have the opportunity to respond or guess what they're about. I decided to include 2 sonnets here to make up for the round that I lost. First, the 4th sonnet is about a prostitute; it should be self-explanatory from there. However, it could also be about a morally bankrupt lover or one that you do not enjoy having sex with. And finally, the 5th sonnet was about somebody not liking the creative work of another, and the author feeling hurt and insecure given the criticisms that the work received.

Well, enjoy!

--- Sonnet 4 ---

The girl is silver coin operated;
Each kiss is negligent to my torment.
Delusions of my heaven created;
A form of sex with a poison accent.
I try to wake her from her pleasant dreams;
Pain underneath a sedated relic.
Misunderstanding my pathetic screams,
Sounds appetizing to a mind so sick.
Vehemence for my bleeding fortitude
Never vary her executive routine.
The truth of my strain does elude;
Deplore my bankrupt tryst with a machine.
Smeared make-up depicts the great urgency;
Exchanging lying love for currency.

--- 5th Sonnet ---

Pieces are floating like orchid petals;
A once beautiful whole now dismantled.
Eyes close to the pain as it all settles,
Strain on a soul already bedeviled.
Crushing remains with self important bite,
Heels of shoes walking for esteem bruising.
A presumptuous sneer far from polite;
Immaculate creation tarnishing.
Bedraggled my manifesto with odium,
Never truly understanding spirit--
Mind in need of religious opium,
My blood to the devil I did submit.
Philanthropy she did out right refuse;
The bread crumbs were set for my candid muse.
Debate Round No. 5
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by philosphical 7 years ago
philosphical
Thanks for the RFD
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
I really enjoyed this debate and think this was a great idea. I wanted to make sure my preferences were unbiased so I decided to only read the poems and skip the interpretations. That said, both sides did wonderfully. My only gripe would be Pro's tendency to use the same words multiple times in a single poem. Unless it is a name, seeing the same word more than once takes me out of the experience.

I deducted a conduct point for her forfeit but overall, my vote leans toward Con. I found her first two poems especially enjoyable. Anyway, good job and I hope to see more of these.
Posted by philosphical 7 years ago
philosphical
It's all good. It has happened to me before too
Posted by Danielle 7 years ago
Danielle
Mother F-er! Sorry Phil, I was traveling ALL day (I'm back in NY for now) so I couldn't post in time... grr. I'll get back to you with a final round for sure!
Posted by philosphical 7 years ago
philosphical
haha thankyou very much
Posted by draxxt 8 years ago
draxxt
I love the rise in abstract intellectualism recently. And it's all thanks to you, Mr. philosophical.
Posted by GhostWriter 8 years ago
GhostWriter
All the sonnets so far in this "debate" are awesome! Truly beautiful. I already know that I will not be able to vote for one and not the other, therefore, I predict a tie as my vote. :)
Posted by philosphical 8 years ago
philosphical
Fighting is a great part of life... But, ones interest in sports does not make him illogical when it comes to other things in life, there are many other great things that make life so great. I have learned not to be so quick to judge on ones appearence, when behind you can find their inner artistic nature.
Yes i do love to fight, but at the same time i am intrigued by writing, poetry, art, and other such fine things of synthetic nature.
Posted by 1stLordofTheVenerability 8 years ago
1stLordofTheVenerability
Kinda ironic, isn't it? A chap with 'UFC' as his avatar is debating the finer points of English. :D
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
Nevermind, theLwerd, noticed. >.>
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