The Instigator
ydavid
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Preston
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

South Carolina Should Not Be Allowed To Fly A Confederate Flag

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Preston
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/22/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 463 times Debate No: 76804
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (3)

 

ydavid

Pro

Hey, this is my first debate so I'm trying to figure it out. But after observing a few other debates I think I understand the etiquette.
Round 1: Acceptance
Round 2: Opening Statements
Round 3: Rebuttal
Round 4: Rebuild and Refute
Round 5: Closing Statements
Preston

Con

I Accept GLHF
Debate Round No. 1
ydavid

Pro

Thank you very much for accepting my challenge, I hope for this to be a stimulating debate.
My Value in the case will be Morality. It is the moral duty of the leaders in a state government to ensure that all citizens are adequately respected by the government in the state.
My Criterion for this is Offensive Material. In order to maintain their moral duty, the state government must be able to ensure that all citizens are adequately respected. This can only be achieved by removing anything that is state sponsored.
Definitions offered to ensure clarity:
Freedom of Speech: Is defined as the right held by American citizens to speak freely without fear of censorship. This means that Free speech cannot be argued in this case because a state is not considered to be a citizen.
Symbolic Speech: Action through which speech is presumed
Citizen: An individual member of a sovereign nation

Contention 1: South Carolina cannot fly the Confederate Flag because it is a symbol of racism and discrimination.
"In the Southern states that were once members of the self-declared Confederate States of America, and whose attempted secession set off the American Civil War, a certain revisionist view of that time is very popular today. It"s known as "The Lost Cause of the Confederacy," and its roots go back to the reconstruction period immediately following the South"s Civil War defeat.
In its modern iteration, proud white Southerners imagine a humble, down-to-earth folk whose way of life and independence were threatened by an elitist and totalitarian Union government. Confederate troops fought bravely and skilfully but were steamrolled by sheer force of numbers. Indeed, it never was possible to win this fight, even with moral right on their side.
Notice there"s no mention of the Confederacy"s god-given right to keep people as slaves. In this version of history, the "peculiar institution" wasn"t really what the war was about. But while it is true that Lincoln prioritized maintaining the Union over everything else, including ending slavery, for the South, at least, it was very much about slavery. On the eve of the war, Confederate vice president Alexander Stephens gave his now-famous "cornerstone speech", from which I"ll quote:
'Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth'"
This of course is significant to the argument because it shows that the Confederate Flag is a racist symbol and as I've already shown in my Value and Criterion denies the main purpose of a government, to uphold the rights of the people. If an individual was to wear a Confederate flag it is protected as symbolic speech; however, the government is the not an individual.

Contention 2: The Confederate Flag is a flag of traitors against the United States, therefore it has no business being on a state capital.
In his book, Tupelo, John Hill Aughey relates a sermon he preached, during that year, against Southern secession while at the "Poplar Creek Presbyterian church of Choctaw County, Mississippi.
The nationalistic tenor of Aughey"s sermon is immediately apparent from the Scripture on which he had chosen to base his sermon, which just happened to be Romans 13:1. "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."
Mr. Aughey begins his sermon with a feeble attempt to juxtapose the Southern talk of secession, due in large part to the May 1860 Morrill Tariff, which would raise the average tariff from about 15% to 37%, with Israel"s "idolatry" and rebellion against Judah after the death of King Solomon.
The pastor then goes on to declare: "if we, as the ten tribes, resist the ordinance of God, (meaning, of course, the accepted dogma of Romans 13:1) we will perish. At this time many are advocating the course of the ten tribes. Secession is a word of frequent occurrence. It is openly advocated by many. Nullification and rebellion, secession and treason, are convertible terms, and no good citizen will mention them with approval."
Furthermore Aughey accents his nationalism with these words: "Where do we obtain the right of secession? Clearly not from the word of God, which enjoins obedience to all that are in authority, to whom we must be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience"s sake."
As if on cue pastor Aughey calls on his congregation to find the right of state secession in the Constitution of the United States and continues his remarks with this remarkable statement.
"Henry Clay, the great statesman, Daniel Webster, the expounder of the constitution, General Jackson, George Washington, and a mighty host, whose names would fill a volume, regarded secession as treason." (Emphasis mine)
It is unquestionably true that those named would regard secession as treason."
This means that the Confederate flag is a sign of treason because the powers the Southern States attempted to use could not be adequately derived from any source. Now, this is significant because the secession of the Southern States should be a shameful time for all of them, but especially South Carolina, it should not be celebrated, especially at a public place like a capital.
Contention 3: A similar supreme court decision shows that a state cannot put offensive materials on its property.
"The Supreme Court on Thursday upheld Texas" refusal to issue a license plate bearing the Confederate battle flag, rejecting a free-speech challenge.
The court said in a 5-4 ruling that Texas can limit the content of license plates because they are state property and not the equivalent of bumper stickers."
This is significant because it shows that the flag should not be put on state property. It also shows that there is genuine concern that the flag will offend citizens.
I look forward to you responses and thanks again for accepting my debate.
Sources:
http://dfw.cbslocal.com...
https://dumpdc.wordpress.com...
http://www.care2.com...
Preston

Con

So first I will Start by Disecting my opponents Criterion:

"My Criterion for this is Offensive Material. In order to maintain their moral duty, the state government must be able to ensure that all citizens are adequately respected. This can only be achieved by removing anything that is state sponsored."

The First thing you are going to be looking at here is Morality, morality is subjective however, thirty years ago it was immoral to allow gays to marry, now it is immoral to judge someone based off sexual orientation. Moralities lack of structure and ability to change means it is a poor judging point, because it is not reliable.

What you are going to see is that my opponent is required by the BOP to show the flag should not be Flown, his Criterion states that this can only be achieved by removing any and all state sponsored material. That means my opponent has extended his BOP, He must show that "The Flag should not be flown because the state cannot effectively respect citizens without withdrawing all influence" If he cannot you default Neg

Definitions offered to ensure clarity:
Freedom of Speech: Is defined as the right held by American citizens to speak freely without fear of censorship. This means that Free speech cannot be argued in this case because a state is not considered to be a citizen.
Symbolic Speech: Action through which speech is presumed
Citizen: An individual member of a sovereign nation

The only thing i would like to point out is that freedom of speech is miss-defined:
Freedom of Speech - the right to express any opinions without censorship or restraint. [1]

Contention 1): Freedom of speech is applicable to the state just as it is to any individual. In the courtcase Citizens United V. FEC it was determined that companies have freedom of speech, in doing so they also decided that any group composed of individuals also should receive protection from the constitution protecting their freedom of speech. [2]

Now this was done because the supreme court looked at groups of individuals like this:
Anyone who can have legal action taken against them must have legal rights in order to uphold the constitution, an organization of individuals can be sued, if we deprive them of their rights we would be unjustly practicing law against them.

Thus under this conclusion we see that a state, which is defined as:
State - a politically unified people occupying a definite territory; nation.[3]

That a state is composed of individuals and thus receives the same rights as an individual, It can have legal Protections, and FOS.

Contention 2): Flying the flag does not necessarily mean they condone what the public considers it to stand for, Notice that the state flys the flag stands in front of the same state capitol that was the state capitol during the revolution, it is where it belongs. In a place that recognises it as history. It is not flown higher then The US Flag, it is below it, symbolically representing superiority of the US Flag.

It is important that we remember our heritage so that we may better ourselves from it. This flag was flown over a nation that was crushed and defeated, the people enslaved in these nations freed, if anything this flag represents how slavery is unsound. The flag is not a symbol of racism or discrimination.

Contention 3): BOP
My opponent holds the BOP and thus must prove several things.
1) A state is not doing its job unless it withdraws influence from the public.
2) the Flag should not be flown
3) the Flag is Racist/Discriminatory not based on public view because it it fallacious to make an Appeal to Popularity. [A] Instead they must use empirics that prove its basis.
4) they must prove the state is condoning racism by flying it and not any other form of pride
Response 1: South Carolina cannot fly the Confederate Flag because it is a symbol of racism and discrimination.

This is not the root of the flag, this flag is derived from history, It was not created to extend racism but to represent a group of people who felt their national government did not have their best interests in mind, after the civil war it still flew and people were never killed under it due to race, this flag has incorrectly been matched to racism.

"In the Southern states that were once members of the self-declared Confederate States of America and whose attempted secession set off the American Civil War a certain revisionist view of that time is very popular today. Its known as "The Lost Cause of the Confederacy" and its roots go back to the reconstruction period immediately following the South's Civil War defeat"

This flag existed as a battle flag before reconstruction.

'Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth'"

This does not show why the flag should not be flown, it does not show the flag is immoral.

"This of course is significant to the argument because it shows that the Confederate Flag is a racist symbol and as I've already shown in my Value and Criterion denies the main purpose of a government, to uphold the rights of the people. If an individual was to wear a Confederate flag it is protected as symbolic speech; however, the government is the not an individual."

First, I have shown the state does in fact retain the rights of an individual, Secound should we restrict hindu's because hitler has stolen their symbol? "he swastika was an important symbol for many thousands of years and, to this day, the symbol can still be seen in abundance - on temples, buses, taxis, and on the cover of books" [4] No we shouldnt, again, morality changes

Response 2: The Confederate Flag is a flag of traitors against the United States, therefore it has no business being on a state capital.
In his book, Tupelo, John Hill Aughey relates a sermon he preached, during that year, against Southern secession while at the "Poplar Creek Presbyterian church of Choctaw County, Mississippi.

Sorry cutting a little for Characters, These Sermons you Quote are one man's opinion on treason, however the states that rebelled had their own flags previous to their succession and still have them today, they do not represent treason or secession, instead they are pride in state.

This means that the Confederate flag is a sign of treason because the powers the Southern States attempted to use could not be adequately derived from any source. Now, this is significant because the secession of the Southern States should be a shameful time for all of them, but especially South Carolina, it should not be celebrated, especially at a public place like a capital.

If anything this plays into my second contention.
Response 3: A similar supreme court decision shows that a state cannot put offensive materials on its property.
"The Supreme Court on Thursday upheld Texas" refusal to issue a license plate bearing the Confederate battle flag, rejecting a free-speech challenge.
The court said in a 5-4 ruling that Texas can limit the content of license plates because they are state property and not the equivalent of bumper stickers."
This is significant because it shows that the flag should not be put on state property. It also shows that there is genuine concern that the flag will offend citizens.

This again shows how the state is an individual, It also shows it is up to the states discretion what can and cannot exist on state property, in this case they are removing the flag.

[1]http://dictionary.reference.com...
[2]http://www.oyez.org...
[3]http://dictionary.reference.com...
[4]http://www.ancient-origins.net...
[A]http://www.nizkor.org...
Debate Round No. 2
ydavid

Pro

ydavid forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
ydavid

Pro

ydavid forfeited this round.
Preston

Con

lil disappointing, push
Debate Round No. 4
ydavid

Pro

ydavid forfeited this round.
Preston

Con

Preston forfeited this round.













































































































































JK vote con, abandoned round
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FreedomBeforeEquality 1 year ago
FreedomBeforeEquality
@Jerry1Debater

Hey its insensitive to me as a Veteran of the armed forces to be burning my American flag. Wheres your bleeding heart for me.
Posted by Preston 1 year ago
Preston
The rebels were separating themselves from a nation that did not care about their well being. Its very obvious when you look at the initial outcome. Before the war they were sovern. They didn't just break out into battle. ALSO, we still let the english fly their flag and they started the slave trade in the US, infact they started mass genocides in the philippines, why isnt this banned?
Posted by Jerry1debater 1 year ago
Jerry1debater
I think that it's wrong and insensitive toward black people to fly the Confederate flag. Some people argue that it has nothing to do with slavery but what flag were the rebels flying while trying to hold on to slavery?
Posted by Preston 1 year ago
Preston
It looks trollish to create an account, comment on one thing and thats it D1, with no pic change.
Posted by kkshake 1 year ago
kkshake
Lol I'm a troll account because I commented on something the first day I joined? Okay. No I actually was debating this issue with my uncle on facebook which made me interested on seeing if there was an argument on here for it.
Posted by Preston 1 year ago
Preston
Not you, the guy who commented, he joined when he commented, read into context before you decide to post, and you will have to prove it and several other things to win.
Posted by ydavid 1 year ago
ydavid
I am not a troll account, Preston. I actually think that is not very professional conduct. Now let's not talk trash in the comments, let's allow are arguments to speak for our knowledge of the subject. It is a symbol of hate, and I think I can adequately prove that.
Posted by Preston 1 year ago
Preston
Nice and you are a troll account... wow
Posted by Preston 1 year ago
Preston
You are totally right kkshake, my country, the United States Of America at no point in time had a rebelious half that enslaved and abused individuals because of their race, they also didnt lynch, burn, beat or kill people under this flag claiming southern pride. in essense your arguing that southern pride has other aspects, however this is the main aspect, and i will win, because i doubt my opponent will be able to provide ample BOP. Oh and IRL it will be removed as well.
Posted by kkshake 1 year ago
kkshake
They obviously should be allowed to because if you know anything about history you'll know the confederate flag isn't a symbol of racism, hatred, or supremacy. Hopefully, the contender knows the history in this debate, because whatever you'll have to offer will easily be debunked.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 1 year ago
Ragnar
ydavidPrestonTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Death23 1 year ago
Death23
ydavidPrestonTied
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by Varrack 1 year ago
Varrack
ydavidPrestonTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Ff