The Instigator
Debate13701
Con (against)
The Contender
Raumulus
Pro (for)

Spain should grant Catalonia its Independence

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/12/2017 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 6,527 times Debate No: 105753
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
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Debate13701

Con

The independence of Catalonia will negatively impact Spain, Catalonia, and Europe; therefore, Catalonia shall not be given independence.

First, it is important to recognize the negative impact independence would have on Catalonia. With Catalonia splitting from Spain, it would need to create its own military, fund its own education, collect its own intelligence, etc. By doing so, all the money that Catalonia would hypothetically save by separating from Spain and more will be put towards making Catalonia a state, putting it in economic collapse. Further, due to the tension and unpredictability, companies are moving out of Catalonia by the thousands, this will increase unemployment dramatically and shrink the economy, making Catalonia much worse off that it is as part of Spain. According to CNBC, “ Catalonia could see its economy shrink by 25 to 30 percent and its unemployment double if it splits to form a separate state.” The impact of this is huge, as the main reason Catalonia wants to separate from Spain is that it believes it will do economically better without Spain, but in fact, Catalonia will face a huge economic crisis. Its current unemployment rate is 15.28% according to Statistia; therefore, independence could mean a 30.53% unemployment rate. With unemployment rates this high, Catalonia is likely to face its own Great Depression. This is further backed up by The Express interview with Josep Bou, president of the ‘Entrepreneurs of Catalonia,’ when he stated that “We know perfectly well that this would become an exodus, Catalonia would go into an economic collapse.” Furthermore, The New York Times states, “Since the referendum, more than 2000 companies, including CaixaBank and Sabadell, have moved their legal headquarters outside Catalonia” Catalonia hasn’t even seceded from Spain and companies are already fleeing, imagine the amount of companies that will leave if Catalonia becomes independent— the effect of its economy will be detrimental. Furthermore, Massachusetts, California, and other states put more money into the United States than the United States gives to it, but this does not mean that they are even considering separating from the United States because they know that they are stronger as part of a larger whole than by themselves.

Next, it is important to consider the effect Catalonia's independence will have on Spain. Catalonia is the wealthiest region in Spain, and losing it will be a hit to its economy. Further, Catalonia owns a larger part of Spain's debt, and Spain is unsure as to whether or not Catalonia will pay back their portion back if they become a separate nation. According to CNBC, “The establishment of a border would result in a loss of jobs, income and wealth for everybody, whether they live in Catalonia or in the rest of Spain," and they continue to state that “Catalonia makes a hefty contribution to the overall Spanish economy, making 223.6 billion euros ($262.96 billion) a year, according to the regional government. This is around 20 percent of its total gross domestic product (GDP). ” Furthermore, according to Al Jazeera, “Catalonia is by far Spain's top exporting region, with 25 percent of all goods produced there sold abroad last year and in the first quarter of 2017.” Furthermore, according to CNBC “Therefore, Catalonia accounts for 16.34 percent of Spain's debt, which is not a small price tag. This aspect, combined with the loss of Catalonia's tax revenues, would be a hit to the Spanish economy.” Therefore, Catalonia’s secession would greatly damage the Spanish economy, increasing unemployment, preventing people from being able to make money and stopping them from putting food on their table.

Further, the independence of Catalonia will negatively impact Europe. The independence of Catalonia will only further promote European Balkanization, nationalism, and the segregation of the poor from the rich. Such Balkanization will turn poor countries poor, as they will no longer have rich regions to support them, yet rich regions are not getting richer; in fact, rich regions will become much poorer as they will have to pay for their own military, intelligence agencies, welfare programs, education, infrastructure, etc. This splitting will turn this now united continent of power countries into a divided Europe filled with weak microstates, each plagued with xenophobia and foreign and domestic attacks. This Balkanization has happened before, starting with Kosovo, when The Independent states, "In 2008, the country, which used to be a part of Serbia made a unilateral declaration of independence (just as Catalonia is threatening to do). Since it has been cited by other secessionist movements as evidence of their legitimacy. When Crimea declared independence from Ukraine, it literally cited the Kosovo precedent in its declaration of independence." However, the results could be a lot much more disastrous than what occurred after Kosovo as we are currently near the peak of a Nationalist movement. In fact, this is already happening, Public Radio International states that the situation is Catalonia is “also echoed within the wider European context by those in Germany, Finland and the Netherlands who are reluctant to transfer funds to hard-up southern countries.” Therefore, this is already happening and the process will accelerate if Catalonia is given its independence. In fact, according to The Telegraph, the co-head of the influential European Greens in parliament states that “the Catalonia crisis "threatened the spirit of European integration, even more than Brexit"” Therefore, Catalan independence could balkanize Europe, turning it into a continent of weak microstates, each of which will be more powerless to foreign and domestic attacks and will have less growth and development. Therefore, Catalonia's independence will likely lead to the Balkanization of Europe, splitting it into weak microstates, making Europe more unstable and disabling it from aiding other countries around the world in the future. The whole world will feel the loss of this global superpower if we let Catalonia become independent.

According to Politico, only 41.1% of Catalans want independence, why should Spain give Catalonia independence if it doesn't even want it and if it is going to hurt Catalonia, Spain, Europe, and the World?

Thank you!
Raumulus

Pro

I"d like to thank my interlocutor for such an interesting and relevant prompt. I'd like to begin not with statistics, but with some slightly abstracted Political Science.

Whether Spain should grant Catalonia its independence entirely depends on the terms by which Spain claims to have dominion over the Catalonian people. By dominion, I only mean political power, that is, "the right to make laws"with the death penalty and consequently all lesser penalties"for regulating and preserving property, and to employ the force of the community in enforcing such laws and defending the commonwealth from external attack; all this being only for the public good" (With the exception of the death penalty perhaps, I"m sure you"ll find this definition"which is John Locke"s"adequate).
There are two ways by which a government comes to have dominion over a person: through voluntary subjection, which is caused by the one ruled, and involuntary subjugation, which is caused by the one ruling. Subjection is justified on the basis of contract: the one ruled naturally has the right to act for his own good, to protect his interests, which he surrenders to the government in return for some perceived benefit.
It should be noted that if a multitude should be ruled by one government, that government is able to act as a singularity on behalf of the multitude; such that one government may voluntarily subject itself to another, as though it were a person. So then, subjection occurs between two governments as well as between one government and one person. Involuntary subjugation however, only occurs between governments.
Subjugation is justified on the basis of the incompetence of the government being subjugated. If a government should commit injustice upon its citizens, it ceases to be a government proper, therefore resigning its sovereign status. It is by this reason that one state can be said to justly invade and hold dominion over another, which would otherwise be considered sovereign.
Thus, the relationship between the states of Spain and Catalonia must be understood in one of these two ways; either Catalonia is subject to Spain voluntarily, because the Catalonian government recognizes that subjection to the other is beneficial for the Catalonian people, or because the Spanish government recognizes that the Catalonian government is transgressing the contract made with its people and is dealing unjustly with them"this is the difference between Republic and Empire.
To the point then: should Spain grant Catalonia its independence? According to Spanish law, no. In the very first section of the preliminary part of the Spanish constitution, Spain is said to be a "democratic state."1 Involuntary subjugation, while justified in certain circumstances, is by no means democratic. Spain, therefore, must be considering Catalonia to be ruled by voluntary subjection, that is, by contract. This is quite obvious, that the Spanish government considers itself a union of diverse regions and nationalities; it claims the Spanish union to be "indissoluble."2 There is no way, therefore, that Catalonia may declare independence in accord with Spanish law.
In accord with Natural law, that is, Reason, however, Spain should grant Catalonia its independence if so demanded. Because the Catalonian people have subjected themselves voluntarily through contract to the Catalonian government, and that government has in turn subjected itself to the Spanish government in behalf of the people governed, the right to voluntarily terminate the continuous contract must be reserved. As long as Spain claims to be more Republic than Empire, the Catalonian government must be allowed sovereignty.
This being the case, what you"ve said may very well be true, that the effects of a Catalonian secession from Spain might be catastrophic to both states, as well as the whole of Europe. This does not in any way negate the Catalonian right to independence. It is the duty of every educated person, to persuade the Catalonians to make the right decision, but in the end, the decision must be Catalonian lest democracy be in truth tyranny.
In short, as Catalonia has formally requested independence, Spain must grant it.

1.Preliminary Part, Section 1, 1
2.Preliminary Part, Section 2
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Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by JDgoal18 1 week ago
JDgoal18
Catalonia is a country that produces a lot of money, meaning that being ruled by Spain requires Catalonia to give some of the money to Spain. This leaves Catalonia fiscally drained, meaning that the education systems aren't at the best it could be if it were independent, and had the option to spend the money of necessary things. Catalonia is forced to give 17 billion euros to Spain. This means that there will be no military, there will not be an advanced education for many of Catalonia's citizens.

Secondly, many people voted to have their independence. It is reported as 57% of all citizens voted in order to have their independence from Spain. Meaning that if we go against what millions of people think, that would create more sour relationships between the citizens and the government. There have already been many protests due to police violence that is overlooked by Spain, because they want to keep Catalonia as a part of their empire, ruling over many countries. If Catalonia broke apart from Spain, then there will be less police brutalities, meaning that there will be less blood spilled and less protests. It has been reported that during a peaceful protest, 13 people were injured with plastic bullets from "riot control". They have been recorded beating people for voting and taking poll boxes and burning them, to make sure that those who did vote for independence did not get it and Catalonia will stay as a part of Spain for ever.

Last but not least, the fact that Catalonia is very different from Spain in many ways. For example, culture. Catalonia and Spain have different dances, celebrating different holidays. Not to mention that citizens of Catalonia speak Catal'a. Which is a combination of Spanish and Italian. However, Spain speaks Catalan, which is a completely different language with words that might be spelled the same, but overall have different meanings.

As you have seen, Catalans have many reasons to be independent. Thanks.
Posted by JDgoal18 1 week ago
JDgoal18
Catalonia is a country that produces a lot of money, meaning that being ruled by Spain requires Catalonia to give some of the money to Spain. This leaves Catalonia fiscally drained, meaning that the education systems aren't at the best it could be if it were independent, and had the option to spend the money of necessary things. Catalonia is forced to give 17 billion euros to Spain. This means that there will be no military, there will not be an advanced education for many of Catalonia's citizens.

Secondly, many people voted to have their independence. It is reported as 57% of all citizens voted in order to have their independence from Spain. Meaning that if we go against what millions of people think, that would create more sour relationships between the citizens and the government. There have already been many protests due to police violence that is overlooked by Spain, because they want to keep Catalonia as a part of their empire, ruling over many countries. If Catalonia broke apart from Spain, then there will be less police brutalities, meaning that there will be less blood spilled and less protests. It has been reported that during a peaceful protest, 13 people were injured with plastic bullets from "riot control". They have been recorded beating people for voting and taking poll boxes and burning them, to make sure that those who did vote for independence did not get it and Catalonia will stay as a part of Spain for ever.

Last but not least, the fact that Catalonia is very different from Spain in many ways. For example, culture. Catalonia and Spain have different dances, celebrating different holidays. Not to mention that citizens of Catalonia speak Catal'a. Which is a combination of Spanish and Italian. However, Spain speaks Catalan, which is a completely different language with words that might be spelled the same, but overall have different meanings.

As you have seen, Catalans have many reasons to be independent. Thanks.
Posted by piluguji 2 weeks ago
piluguji
Raumulus, I do not understand your argument that you have presented. Could you please explain once again, in simple terms.
Posted by fccorder 1 month ago
fccorder
It was a joke, PF is a type of debate and that is this months topic!
Posted by Raumulus 1 month ago
Raumulus
What does "PF" much mean?
Posted by fccorder 1 month ago
fccorder
PF much
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