The Instigator
elijonlogan
Pro (for)
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The Contender
maxwell.lane
Con (against)
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Sparta is better than Athens

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/15/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 13,921 times Debate No: 73532
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

elijonlogan

Pro

Sparta is better than Athens in many ways. Sparta was more equal, fair and just, as well as being strong and smart. It had more equal roles for women in society, and contrary to popular belief they did not leave weak babies on the hillsides. In Athens, the government was corrupt, slaves were attacked and raped, and women weren’t even allowed to leave their homes.
maxwell.lane

Con

1st off, Sparta was not more equal, it just didn't promote democracy. Every male that was capable was required to go through a life of training. Do you want to know why they needed such a strong army? Because they had to keep down the massive slave population. at the height of its power, sparta had 500,000 slaves and only 25,000 citizens. http://www.allempires.com...
Debate Round No. 1
elijonlogan

Pro

Sources: http://elysiumgates.com...
http://spartareconsidered.blogspot.com...
Spartan"s government was far superior to the government of Athens. It is common knowledge that Athens was the first democracy. WRONG! Sparta"s constitution was the first known constitution to give supreme power in the hand of the citizens, in the form of the Assembly. Sparta also had elements of an oligarchy, a monarchy, an aristocracy, and even a meritocracy. There were extensive checks and balances to make sure that no part, or branch, became too powerful. This is still an ideology we use today in American government. The two kings were part of the government for tradition, similar to the government of the UK. There were the Council of Elders, or Gerousia, a group of twenty-eight Spartiate men and the two kings that who create bills, that the Assembly, or common man, vote on. The Assembly was composed of every adult male in Sparta, but theoretically anybody could participate. They voted whether to pass bills into law, and against common belief, they could vote more than yes or no. These members of the Assembly were chosen, by the impartial evaluators, who sat in a different room and listened for the loudest cheer for each candidate. This method gave everybody a chance, and if you really wanted a certain candidate, you could just yell louder. The Ephors, were a group of five members, who made day-to-day decisions, and were elected annually. When an Ephor went out of office they couldn"t be re-elected. One of Sparta"s main achievements was the equal distribution of land. All citizens had a roughly equal portion of land to the next. This was the first of the Grecian city-states to accomplish this. Originally Spartans used gold and silver coins. But the inequality of wealth combined with robbery and crime, caused a leader called Lycurgus to ban the use of gold and silver coins in favor of iron bars. Soon all crime and robbery all but disappeared from Sparta, and inequalities of wealth were treated as an aberrations. Showing off wealth in public marked you as a show-off or a bragger. Wealth was still commonplace, but not as much as in Athens. At least everybody had the minimum standard of living. Women actually were more wealthy than men. They could inherit and own land, combined with their naturally longer lifespan, gave them time for wealth to accumulate.

Athenian government was not as balanced or equal. To quote an article by Claire Taylor "Every level of Athenian politics was riddled with corruption". She goes on to state different forms of bribery and blackmail, as well as their descriptions. Athenian government was so marred by bribery that is impossible to tell how many accounts of bribery occurred. In the court, bribery wasn"t even important, it was added on to the court meeting as a side issue. There are so many issues with Ancient Athens it would be impossible to cover them in an entire week. On the streets of Athens, one can see poverty, vile slave drivers, and adultery everywhere. The gender equality was little to nothing, as women weren"t able to inherit/own land, divorce their spouse, or even leave their houses. They also slaughtered their intellectual geniuses like Socrates, who was accused of corruption, just for telling young men not to worship the city"s gods. Despite the popularity of democracy today, in Ancient Athens, most philosophers disagreed with the idea of democracy. Aristotle preferred a monarchy or an aristocracy to a democracy, and Socrates found democracy corrupt, preferring strong and intelligent city-states like Sparta.

Education in Sparta was better, more equal and more thorough than education in Athens. Both girls and boys were taught reading, writing, literature and mathematics, as well as wrestling, fighting and how to defend themselves. It has been attested from many sources that Spartans placed a high value on training the intellect, not just physical abilities. People like Plato, Socrates and Xenophon admired the city of Sparta and their education, and why would philosophers admire a city in which there was no intellectual training. Spartan citizens needed to be able to debate and deliberate in the Assembly, to voice their opinions. Even a wise master of Athens claimed Spartans are the best educated on philosophy and speaking, Socrates. And Plato stated that all early philosophers were "imitators, lovers and disciples of Spartan education." Again Plutarch states his point "devotion to the intellect is more characteristic of Spartans than love of physical exercise." The famous philosopher Chilon, is always mentioned among the seven wise men of the ancient world. According to common belief Spartan children are encouraged to steal food, but this was only during a certain period in their upbringing, as it brought strength and hardship to their skillset. Spartan children were actually required to go through this schooling to become a citizen. This included geometry, physical skills, and literature.

In Athens, only boys and men were educated, with women being left out. As a result, most women and girls were illiterate. Athenian males were educated in some intellectual topics, but left out important subjects like protecting the self and city-state. Girls only learned from their mother, things like housework and obedience. The poor children only learned what their father and mother learned learned, passing down the lack of education from generation to generation. At age 14, boys started education, but impoverished children started working to make money. The combination of widespread poverty and women left a gaping hole in the education of Athens as a whole, showing that they were dumb.
The three social classes of Sparta are the Spartiates, the citizens, the Perioikoi, the free, non-citizen workers, and the Helots, the semi-free slaves. All of the classes could earn and profit from their labor, and anybody could buy citizenship. Our fertile land, had around 9,000 lots, and each lot could produce over 30 metric tons of barley, a considerable sum. The Helots, who farmed the lots, could keep half of their produce, and easily buy citizenship.

Our "slaves", or helots, had many rights, including the fact that they were allowed to marry, have children, and have their family/relatives recognized as thus. They were permitted to choose their language and customs, keep their homes, and even buy and sell land. The slaves could be promoted to Neodamodeis, which the benefits of being one have been lost to history. Helots could also buy their freedom with the profits of their labor. These slaves were allowed to keep half of their labor and sell it to gain their freedom. It has even been cited that helots gaining freedom was common. You may say that our slaves revolted because they were unhappy. This is true, they revolted, but that is because some of our helots were foreigners and did not realize the privilege they had as being a Spartan helot, say versus an Athenian Slave. These revolts were followed by laws allowing killing of helots without punishment, but this wasn"t usually the case. Attacks on anybody, including slaves, were considered inhumane and would be punishable by death, or exile, the worst punishment for Spartans.

In Athens, however, it may seem that slaves are treated fine, with rights and such. There are laws for protecting Athenian slaves rights, correct. Well, these laws really weren"t followed. There were masters who would use a whip constantly, and then the mines. In the mines Athenian slaves were often worked to the death. And they didn"t even do anything but be born. At least in Sparta, we only gave these harsh punishments to our enemies, people of neighboring city-states we"d conquered. And even further, prostitution was against the law, but was still commonplace. Women slaves were raped until they were pregnant and gave birth, which was often deadly.
maxwell.lane

Con

maxwell.lane forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
elijonlogan

Pro

Spartan military was far superior to Athenian military. They used the helots, or slaves, as warriors called hoplites, who were land soldiers who usually fought in the Phalanx, a new military attack pattern, invented by the Spartans. Spartans invented unique strategies for defense and offense such as the Phalanx. The phalanx was an attacking strategy in which soldiers would create a wall of shields and weapons to defend the people next to each other. They then used long range weapons to attack the enemy, but were sometimes forced to use hand weapons like swords and knives. Spartans made military weaponry advanced in the form of the dory, a long spear, a xiphos, a short sword, the kopis, a curved sword, usually used like an axe, and the shield, usually defensive but also used for bashing enemies. Spartans were mainly land units, but for a period, the Spartan navy was very successful, even being small, but only crumbling due to the pressure of the Persians and the unusually weak Athenians. The Spartan army had a code of honor, and no hoplite warrior would risk breaking it, for the safety of the army and for their honor. We were the only Grecian city-state to have a full army at all times, and other than that our army was large and strong. Even when Alexander the Great conquered all other Grecian city-states, Sparta stayed strong and resisted to somehow make a treaty with Alexander, because he feared the strength and power of Sparta.

Athenians and their army were limited to the ocean or other waters because they had a large navy, and little land force, making battles against land-based city-states harder. Including Sparta. In the Peloponnesian War, Sparta received monetary support from Persia, and attacked Athens. Athens gave in to the ultimate power of Sparta and conceded defeat. We obviously beat you, so why try and claim your greatness(in your opinion), when our non-greatness(in your opinion) beat you so badly you needed the Persians to help you rebuild. The final battle in the series of wars was on water, which we won, beating you on your own territory, the ocean. If our weakest military is naval, and your strongest military is naval, and we beat you, what does that mean?? We are stronger in every way.

Spartan economy was a socialist economy or at least similar to one. Our views and ideology are uncannily analogous to the socialist countries of today. Our socialist oligarchy allowed for stability and predictability and the division of labor granted for their military excellence and feeling of luxury. We didn"t use standard money, but iron bars, and a common theory states that we used iron bars because it was much harder to pilfer, and you would need much iron to be valuable, it would be inefficient. Almost everybody"s wealth was equal and inequalities of money were treated as aberrations. The three social classes of Sparta are the Spartiates, the citizens, the Perioikoi, the free non-citizen workers, and the Helots, the semi-free slaves. All of the classes could earn and profit from their labor, and anybody could buy citizenship. Our fertile land, had around 9,000 lots, and each lot could produce over 30 metric tons of barley, a considerable sum. The Helots, who farmed the lots, could keep half of their produce, and easily buy citizenship. Contradicting common belief, helots weren"t annually killed, and weren"t even tortured. Helots were not allowed to be bought and sold, unlike Athenian slaves. We systematically conquered other civilizations to obtain resources. Some of these conquests include the Messenians, the Laconians, the Samians, and the incredible weak Athenians. Our power was not completely military power, our economic self-sufficiency allowed for attacks on neighboring city-states without fear of trade cut-off, letting us conquer unjust and unfair city-states with corrupt governments. We did trade, but did not depend on this for our source of food and resources. We exported goods that were treasured across the world, including timber, pottery and bronze works.

Athenian economy depended on trade. They were reliant on other cultures, which was not a good choice, especially in wartime. All of their goods were made by slaves, and these slaves had few rights. Almost every household in Athens had a domestic slave. These would do some of the work of the woman, cooking, housekeeping, nursing, and even prostitution. Some slaves were worked to their deaths, especially in the mines. Now you may thinking, but Sparta has more slaves, right? Wrong, the slave population of Athens is around double that of Sparta"s. These slaves had few rights. Their family was not recognized as relatives, and they could be split apart at any time. Athenian philosophy had three important areas of consideration for slaves: work, punishment and food. In trials, torturing slaves for statements was mandatory, as only claims gotten from torture were seen as valid.
maxwell.lane

Con

maxwell.lane forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
elijonlogan

Pro

elijonlogan forfeited this round.
maxwell.lane

Con

maxwell.lane forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
elijonlogan

Pro

elijonlogan forfeited this round.
maxwell.lane

Con

maxwell.lane forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by julianomfg 1 year ago
julianomfg
i bet you 'pro' copied and pasted it
Posted by Poler222 1 year ago
Poler222
Whoever is debating from the side of sparta you are spreading some serious mis information. Sparta was the side that beat killed and raped their slaves, sparta also was the side that threw their weak or otherwise unwanted children off the mount taygos cliff
Posted by MissLuLu 2 years ago
MissLuLu
I think you should check a few sources and revise your argument.

Sparta did, in fact, have slaves. This slaves were always afraid for their lives, though, I should think. Some women also abandoned their children in the woods, but that was in Athens, too, and many other places. It was especially common in poorer places.

Athens' government was not always corrupt. There were some corrupted officials once in a while, but that's in every society. Women did leave the house as long as they were accompanied by at least one man. They did all the shopping. Slaves in Athens were mistreated as you say, but not all of them were. Slavery was common in all of Greece at one point, much as it was in the transatlantic world a couple hundred years ago.

I'm not trying to insult you or your argument. Please take this into consideration and perhaps read up a bit. Provide some sources. Good luck!
Posted by The-Voice-of-Truth 2 years ago
The-Voice-of-Truth
You think you have the 2 confused....
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