The Instigator
Jake996897
Pro (for)
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The Contender
noprisu
Con (against)
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Spartan society is a better society than the Athenian Society

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/7/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,998 times Debate No: 45396
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
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Jake996897

Pro

Which society was a better society pro: Spartans or the con: Athenians
Do no get into this to much, simple debate no 80 paragraph aruguments skip first round
noprisu

Con

I accept. I look forward to your first argument.
Debate Round No. 1
Jake996897

Pro

Goog luck

As we all the spartan society is based in the goal of making the toughest military in all of Greece. I for one admire there dedication and the hardcore goal to protect its city state and it's people. Right when Spartan baby's are born they bath them in wine to make sure there tough. After that a spartan elder examines the boy. If he is considered weak or born with a diformaty they left him in a valley where they let them starve or freeze to death. If he does pass the inspection, he is taken to a barracks at the age of 7. Where he will learn to become one of the best warriors in all the known world. Until they are 20 they are trained in harsh ways on other nation have done. They beat them, they whipped then to make them tough. They were not fed properly so they we're incurraged to steal,if they were harshly punished. Many died in the process of the spartan training (agoga) when they reached 20 years old. They underwent harshly test the required physical endurance. The ones who didn't die we're enlisted in the army. This is a hardcore warrior society even if they are weak in numbers they make up for it with experiance. The Athenians process:

Random guy #1: hey can I join the army?

Random Army Commander #1: sure
noprisu

Con

noprisu forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
noprisu

Con

I will now respond to the contentions by my opponent.

Basically the idea my opponent stuck to was the military one; that because there strengths was in the art of war that made them an all around superior society.

This raises a few issues, however.

If we take the idea that better army=better society, then we must submit that the Soviet Union was the BEST EVAR in terms of societal status. That is simply not true. Even if they were wholly dedicated to the army, a society needs more that just that.

Athenians also win in literally every other department that a society can have. They were the center for emerging political ideas including democracy and new philosophical schools of thought including platonics and philosophers such as Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, and many others whose thought influences us today. They had new agricultural breakthroughs and was arguably the birthplace of medicine with Hippocrates. Do the military training styles of Sparta survive today? No. They died out when more civilized people saw the worth of people as more than a tool that could be tested and discarded if they were not physically fit.

The Athenians also had one of the greatest naval fleets in the Aegean Sea. That was part of the reason why the invasion of Troy was such a success. If it was not for the fleet that the Athenians provided, they would have not made it there to begin with.

Sparta could also not run itself correctly, let alone those they conquered. In the conquest of other city-states, they set up fragile support structures and inefficient reconstruction of those they conquered.

The Spartan society also died out sooner, becoming an almost nonexistent state in 374BC after suffering defeat at the hands of Thebes in the Battle of Leuctra(1). Athens is still existent, while not in the same way, today as the capital of all of Greece.

Overall, Greece has more qualities akin to what we see as a society. Sparta had a redeeming quality: there military. This is also countered by the great navy of the Athenians.

I would like to apologize for the first forfeit and will concede all points of conduct for this debate. I await your response.

(1)http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
Jake996897

Pro

Since the schedule has been mixed up, this final round will be rebudle and final statements

I was merely pointing out that spartan warriors were the best warriors in all the ancient world, which is why the Spartans defeated the Athenians and crippled them. As a result of the Athenian defeat sparta crippled the Athenian navy by burning all but 6 navy vessels. No longer will the Athenians ever be a naval super power. Sparta has prevailed and defeated there long rival athens.

The reasons they didn't take control over the Athenians is because they were important on trade. That is why they left the trade vessels. But the Spartans saved the Athenian society twice. One by not conquering them, second was the Persian-Greek war, where after the dearest at thermopoly spearheaded by the Spartans. Took out a large chunk of the Persian force. Nearly 30,000 Persians were slaughtered compared to the couple thousand the Greeks lost. The sheer pride and discipline it took would be unimaginable, to stand and fight there the numbers agianst you' knowing your going to die. The Spartans however were accompanied by a small group of other Greek soldiers, but surrendered after a little fighting.

But after that when the Persians tried to conquer southern Greece. A Greek army, also led by the Spartans defeated the Persians and halted there campaign.

My opponent refers to the Spartans as "uncivilized". Like they were barbarians who pillaged and raped whenever they felt like it. But the Spartans weren't that, they were protectors. They did what was good for the state. They put EVERYBODY through training, even the women knew how to fight. Uniting sparta as a common warrior society. But they weren't just military brutes. They were religious. They were very religious, that's the reason why we didn't help the Athenians at marathon because they had a festival.

Even though Athens had a democracy. We'll I wouldn't even call it a democracy because 50% more or less couldn't vote ,women. Women had very little rights in Athens. They couldn't vote, they couldn't even play women roles in PLAYS. Spartan women that more rights than the male dominated society of Athens.

"Sparta could not run itself correctly"

Sparta was fine, is it wasn't it would have fell far sooner, and due to public problems not war.

"Spartan military training used today? No."

Though the training from 7 and birth are not practiced today.
Special forces use some of the training very similar to the spartan training.

"Athens philosophers stuff stuff stuff"

Spartan society has philosophers too, Lycurgus of sparta was one of the many. Also, the philosophers you named such as Socrates praised spartan law. Another, Platonists, viewed sparta as an ideal state, free from the corruption of money, like the Athenians get handed everything to them on there own silver "Athenian mined" plater.

Spartan society was an ideal state, it had a common religion a well defense that triumphed over Athens. And most importantly, values.

I now leave my opponent to have his rebudle and final statement.
noprisu

Con

Thank you and good debate. I again apologize for the earlier forfeit.

I will now present rebuttals and my final statement.

Rebut1: "I was merely pointing out that spartan warriors were the best warriors in all the ancient world, which is why the Spartans defeated the Athenians and crippled them. As a result of the Athenian defeat sparta crippled the Athenian navy by burning all but 6 navy vessels. No longer will the Athenians ever be a naval super power. Sparta has prevailed and defeated there long rival athens.

Firstly, the Athenian navy did recover, while not to the extent of its previous glory. Secondly, the Spartans only defeated the Athenians after the King of Persia, who was quite angry with Athens, supplied trade routes and naval presence to them. Not to mention that the allies of Athens were revolting in response to the Spartans breaking the Thirty Year Peace. To think that ANY society could of handled all these factors and still kept itself well protected is preposterous.

The Spartans were not the military gods my opponent makes them out to be. The Helot Revolution is an infamous example of the hubris of the Spartans. The Helots were the slave class of the Spartan oligarchy, and revolted against their leaders, and would of beaten them if it was not for the string of allies that Sparta had amassed through the fear of an Athenian-controlled Greece. Athens even sent about 4000 Hoplites, a quite large number for them.

Rebut2:The reasons they didn't take control over the Athenians is because they were important on trade. That is why they left the trade vessels.

This makes no sense. If they were as civilized and intelligent as you claim, (i'm not claiming they were braindead barbarians, as my opponent thinks i have done. I'm just addressing what my opponent said.) they why would they not seize Athens for the trade routes? They could of easily occupied and set up a puppet government in its place. By their history, they were not the most kind of conquerors. This just further shows their incompetence in the conquesting of other city-states

Rebut3:One by not conquering them, second was the Persian-Greek war, where after the dearest at thermopoly

This was done because they were scared of the Persians invading southern Greece through northern Greece and know that could use the Athenians as a sort of shield for the invading army. This was done when the army was minimal compared to Marathon. This fear is proved at the Battle of Marathon when they refused to help the Athenians in, by your own observation, a battle they could have won. They reasoned this by citing a religious festival that has never been ever recorded before and only rarely after the battle. This shows that they were scared to face them without a strong Athenian force to support them.

Rebut4:Spartan society has philosophers too, Lycurgus of sparta was one of the many. Also, the philosophers you named such as Socrates praised spartan law. Another, Platonists, viewed sparta as an ideal state, free from the corruption of money, like the Athenians get handed everything to them on there own silver "Athenian mined" plater.

I will admit that they did praise the law. However, the purpose of the philosophy was simply for the militaristic effort, like everything else in the society. The law was made in an idealistic nature. A similar philosophy is that of perfect communism, but as we all know, that is a very difficult system of government due to the fault of humans in general.

Spartan society was an ideal state, it had a common religion a well defense that triumphed over Athens. And most importantly, values.

I would seriousaly question the "values" of a society that killed the newborns if they were "weak".

I believe I have shown that the Athenian society to be superior in just enough qualities to justify it as being better. Thank you for your time in reading this.
Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Seeginomikata 3 years ago
Seeginomikata
Quality of individual soldiers has little societal value. What does the education system and infrastructure care of how much Spartans are better at impaling people than the next guys?
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