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Stalin did not Practice Communism Effectively

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/10/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 291 times Debate No: 88061
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
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According to Karl Marx, Communism was simply or generally defined as a nation or system that involves "the working-class controlling the means of production, Marx argued that Communism involves forming a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" for the purposes of benefiting the interests of working-class citizens of a nation or system. However, based on historical accounts of proclaimed Communist nations throughout the planet, dictators should as Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Kim Il-Sung, and Kim Jong-Il have displayed a poor representation of income-equality AND creative-equality of working-class citizens. For example, if a nation were to be truthfully governed by a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" that provides citizens with overall political, social, and economic (income) equality, dissidents would not be imprisoned, tortured, or executed for possessing opposing opinions of a dictator and/or party. Thus, previous so-called representatives of Communism had served the interests of themselves rather than the working-class for the purposes of preserving their power and control of the means of production (including human labor). Hypothetically, if a nation were to be governed by a representative of the working-class, the state would consist of a "Pure-Democratic" system that provides working-class citizens with the ability to elect and enact Federal, Provincial, and Municipal Laws and policies through Universal Suffrage, rather than resorting to a representative-democratic system that elects "Dictators of the Bourgeoisie".

One may question: How is a nation governed by a "DICTATORSHIP of the Proletariat" if the state is not governed by a representative of dictator? According to the Encyclopedia Britannica of 2013, a dictatorship is defined as a "... a form of government where a country is ruled by one person or political entity, and exercised through various mechanisms to ensure the entity's power remains strong.". Thus, the "POLITICAL ENTITY" would be identified as "The People" or "The Proletariat" within a Pure-Democratic Communist (or Pure Marxist) system that truthfully represents the interests of the working-class citizens of a nation or system. In other terms, the "Dictatorship [political entity] of the Proletariat [working-class]" would be "The Proletariat" or "The People" of the pure-democratic nation.

Thus, based on the arguments that were presented within the post, Joseph Stalin did not truthfully practice Communism considering that his oppressive activities towards working-class citizens or the proletariat, such as mass-executions, served the interests of himself and the elite members of the party than the interests of the working-class citizens of the USSR.


First of all we have to aknowledge that there is a huge difference between theory and practice. If i write a theory where i believe that if drop an apple from my hand, it will not hit the ground, instead it would float up to the clouds. When my theory would proven to be wrong in practice, i can't blame it on the nature of gravity, just like communists today can't blame that communism didn't work in USSR or China because of the fact that men are not robots. If you come up with a theory that does not work in practice, then it is obviously doomed to fail. It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is if it ends up with a totalitarian regime that starts killing it citizens, or a failed economic plan which end up starving million of people to death. Both of these cases were true to the USSR under the rule of Stalin.
Communism is an ideology responsible for over 100 millions of deaths, the question one should ask is whether it is worth to replace a working system (capitalism) which have brought billions of people of poverty, to a system which haven't done anything else but to oppress and slaughter it citizens.

Second of all, you have to explain how the working class should control the means of production. What we have in the west is that labor, capital and management works together. Explain why Marx idea is better compared to our capitalist system, give us hard evidence of history that Marx theory works.

Governments as we all know it, turns tyrannical when it gains to much power. We have seen this throughout history, not just the 20th century, we have seen it all the way back to when the Roman Republic became an empire. Governments and politicans does not work in other peoples interest, they work in their "own" interest. To give the government the control of ordinary people's lives is suicidal for an entire nation, and it is also morally wrong. There is no way possible to make a government work for the people, because governments will always go corrupt. Instead government should get out of peoples lives and let the people, on their own, create businesses, jobs, charities etc.
Because money is just a symbol used for trade. Money is a symbol of hard work, production, rarity and time. If few people in a society are working, then money becomes useless. If you don't have enoguh supply to meet the demands, then your system won't work. It is as simple as that. The communist system will result in low production, it will result in massive inflation, it will result in huge unemployment rate and it will result in massive starvation. Now if you don't believe in money or currency in your system, it doesn't change anything. You still don't have enough supply to meet basic demands.
Since reward is the only motivation for working. And there is no reward, what should keep people motivated to work?

My final question, why is it that the government or one dictator are better fitted to control other peoples lives than people themself?
Debate Round No. 1


Communism, as an ideology, was not responsible for the deaths of thousands to millions of human beings considering that subjects did not practice Communism in an effective manner. It is the main reason as to why subjects classify Stalin's USSR and Mao Zedong's China to be "Stalinist" and "Maoist" nations considering that both subjects had produced dictatorships based on a cult personality rather than theories presented by Karl Marx. To claim that Stalinism and Maoism is Marxism or Communism in practice would be the equivalent to claiming that one is practicing basketball while playing football. The argument indicates that subjects did not necessarily apply the theoretical approaches within the so-called "Communist" nations. However, the term "Communism" was utilized as a mechanism towards persuading the public that the USSR and Mao Zedong had served the interests of the proletariat. In reality, the state functioned as "The Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie", identical to the modern-day capitalistic system that continues to serve the interests of the wealthy elite.

The working-class shall control the Means of Production through a Pure-Democratic system that elects LAWS rather than REPRESENTATIVES in order to serve the interests of the proletariat through a majority rule.

One ignored the premise indicating that "True Communism" or "Pure Marxism" would involve forming a Pure-Democratic state that provides citizens with the ability to elect Laws revolving around domestic and foreign relations. Thus, the state would not consist of a representative that is capable of serving the interests of themselves or the bourgeois-state considering that the state would be automatically governed by The People or Proletarians of the state.

Incorrect, due to modern-day technological advancements, manual labour shall be replaced by automated-machinery that is capable of producing unlimited, free, and sustainable food, clothing, shelter, and energy while completing services throughout numerous practices within the planet Earth. Modern-day technological advancements involve automated mechanical arms conducting brain surgery on human beings in a mathematically accurate manner without undergoing any form of emotional instabilities such as anxiety. Furthermore, China has recently developed a massive three-dimensional printer that is capable of producing ten dwelling places or households per day with recyclable materials such as hemp. Thus, replacing manual labour with machinery would provide human beings with the ability to utilize their time to research information within educational institutions, libraries, and research centers while practicing numerous other hobby-based activities such as the arts in order to contribute innovative ideas and inventions to humanity. In other terms, 100% of a nation's population shall attain a free education in order to produce advancements for humanity rather than utilizing countless hours labouring within an occupation in order to attain the subsistence to life.

Based on countless case studies within Cuba and The Democratic People's Republic of Korea, subjects are willing to participate in roles within their nation despite the incentive for currency. For example, within Cuba, a waiter or waitress is more likely to attain a larger wealth-based incentive than a doctor through the attainment of tips from customers. However, Cuba's literacy rate exceeds the majority of advanced-capitalist nations considering that the inhabitants of the state are willing to attain an education for the purposes of functioning as doctors, dentists, Lawyers, engineers, professors, teachers, nurses, and social workers despite the low wage. Thus, these case studies confirm that human beings are willing to attain knowledge or information while functioning as numerous important roles within society without remaining dependent on a materialistic incentive considering that the humanitarian act is much more rewarding than the materialistic incentive. It is one of the main reasons as to why human beings undergo an increased state of satisfaction when their persons assist less fortunate human beings than to merely attain a paycheque considering that human beings are naturally a compassionate species, identical to the majority of mammals within the planet Earth.

Marx claimed that a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" shall provide working-class citizens with a prosperous lifestyle while controlling the means of production against the exploitative bourgeoisie. As previously stated, a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" would involve forming a pure-democratic system that classifies "THE PEOPLE" as the dictator of the nation considering that citizens shall possess the ability to vote for LAWS rather than representatives of the state. For example, the decision to invade a foreign nation shall be based on the VOTES of CITIZENS rather than the decision of a representative. A dictatorship is defined as a person or POLITICAL ENTITY that maintains control of the economic and political relations of a nation. Thus, if the PEOPLE or PROLETARIANS were to function as the DICTATOR of the nation, the RULER (the people) would represent the interests of the proletariat as "The Dictatorship of the Proletariat".



First of all if an entire population got to vote on every single issue it would end up in chaos. People in general, are ignorant and selfish. They will vote for the thing that sounds most appealing to them without knowing or aknowledging it's downsides. Most people will vote in self interest and they won't care about a society as a whole. And the ignorant assumption that the majority is always right, is flat out wrong.
Winston Churchill said "the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." So essentially Churchill was saying exactly what i'm saying, that most voters are stupid when it comes to politics. And giving a bunch of stupid people the power to vote for every single issue which could determine life and death is stupid. Instead people who know what they are doing should present a package of ideas and policies and then people get to vote for those who makes most sense, in that way we won't atleast starve a country to death in 2 years because of idiotic policies voted by emotional and uninformed individuals.

And btw. what will happen if the people doesn't vote the way of your ideology? What if they want a capitalist system?

Second of all it really is amazing that the instigator is talking about modern technologies that are created by the capitalist system. Most modern technologies were created in either USA, Japan, Israel or South Korea, four of the most capitalist countries that have ever existed. So there is no doubt that Sollertis actually agrees that capitalism creates advancement atleast in technology. And this is the system he wants to replace with a system that doesn't have a market, that doesn't encourage competition, that doesn't reward accomplishments,. He wants to eliminated all the factors that creates success and advancement. And also, all these "technological advancements" that was brought up actually does not even exist. There will never be an automated machine that produces unlimited food or shelter, and nowhere near close will there be machines that replaces most services that exists today. You can't call a robot to come to your home and fix your sink or have a robot drive a transport vehicle on a road among other human controlled cars for example. Machines always needs someone to design them, someone mine the materials needed, someone to build them, someone to repair them. Machineries are required maintenance and that will never change.
And the instigator is also saying that basically everything shall be free. Food shall be free, shelters shall be free (do you mean we shall live in shelters?), healthcare shall be free and education shall be free.
However this is all just an utopian dream and it definitely won't work in practice. The dream that no one has to work. That money and technologies are just going to come raining down from heaven. That the government is going to listen to the people (never going to happen, governments always turn tyrannical if they get the chance).
And by the way, you say that 100% of people should aquire free education, and that they shall spend their time researching and studying. What happens when most people doesn't show up to school? Because most won't. What will happen? Will they be put in jail or will the police point a gun to their head and make them go? Or will there even be a police force?

And then you are talking about studies made in two major communist countries where it citizens are heavily oppressed by their own government. First of all, how do we know that these studies are true? The government could just have faked them all, and they most likely have. But even if those studies were true it would only be a small portion of people who would be willing to do what you're saying. I can say with big confidence that atleast 95% of an entire population would not be willing to do what your ideology is proposing. They would not be willing to work without being rewarded, what would you do then? Even if only 1% of the population refused to do what your idology wants them to do, what would you do then? Ultimately you will have to point a gun to their head and make them do what you want. And then we are back to where communism always ends up.

Again, you don't seem to understand the difference between theory and practice. Communism in practice won't work like it does in theory, because the theory doesn't make sense with reality. USSR, China, Cuba, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam etc. They were all communist states. Even if you didn't like the turnout, that is communism in practice. Even if you don't want to accept it, Communism is responsible for over 100 million deaths. So let's abandon this ideology.
Debate Round No. 2


The opposition chooses to ignore that subjects shall possess the TIME to educate their minds on topics revolving around the political affairs of the state considering that manual labour shall be abolished and replaced by machinery. In the process, polls and studies throughout North America and Western-Europe confirm that the majority of the population refuses to vote for representatives within advanced-capitalistic nations considering that the leaders do not represent the interests of the public. In reality, advanced capitalistic Liberal democracies result in democratic representatives serving the interests of the ECONOMIC/capitalist power that dominates the market, resulting in trans-national corporations contributing to scarcity, underpayment of employees, outsourcing of employment to foreign corporations, the suppression of technological advancements that contributes to SUSTAINABILITY considering that SUSTAINABILE and RENEWABLE products do not accumulate profit, and numerous other issues that exist within society. In the process, due to capitalism, the gap between the rich and the poor are gradually increasing, resulting in the elimination of the middle-classed population.

The opposition refuses to believe that modern-day automated machinery that is capable of replacing miners, surgeons, construction workers, cashiers, bakers, and numerous other tasks and services throughout society. McDonalds has recently replaced cashiers with vending machines, Chinese companies had replaced numerous construction workers with massive 3-D printers, mechanical arms are capable of conducting brain surgery on patients, automated robotic arms produce 80% of the vehicles within the automobile industry, and facial, voice, and text recognition software detects probable acts of terrorism, high-risk criminal activity, and unprosecuted criminal felons. However, a lot of these technological advancements remain suppressed within mainstream society considering that the capitalistic system remains dependent on human labour in order to generate wealth, resulting in human beings wasting countless hours being exploited by wealthy corporations for their labour power in exchange for profits. The subject attempts to claim that Capitalistic nations remain prosperous with innovative inventions while neglecting that the USSR (non-Communist) was responsible for launching the first satellite within space.

It is an extremely low probability that subjects shall request for a capitalistic system when the state shall be capable of providing it's citizens with unlimited, free, and sustainable food, clothing, shelter, and energy combined with universal healthcare, childcare, education, and numerous other programs that enhance the scientific and artistic abilities of the population. The opposition tends to ignore that the majority of human beings lack the ability to fund The opposition chooses to ignore that subjects shall possess the TIME to educate their minds on topics revolving around the political affairs of the state considering that manual labour shall be abolished and replaced by machinery. In the process, polls and studies throughout North America and Western-Europe confirm that the majority of the population refuses to vote for representatives within advanced-capitalistic nations considering that the leaders do not represent the interests of the public. In reality, advanced capitalistic Liberal democracies result in democratic representatives serving the interests of the ECONOMIC/capitalist power that dominates the market, resulting in trans-national corporations contributing to scarcity, underpayment of employees, outsourcing of employment to foreign corporations, the suppression of technological advancements that contributes to SUSTAINABILITY considering that SUSTAINABILE and RENEWABLE products do not accumulate profit.

The opposition refuses to believe that modern-day automated machinery that is capable of replacing miners, surgeons, construction workers, cashiers, bakers, and numerous other tasks and services throughout society. However, corporations such as McDonalds had replaced cashiers with vending machines, mechanical arms replaced surgeons, China's massive 3D printer replaces construction workers, automated machinery has replaced 80% of the manual labour within the auto-mobile industry, instructors have been replaced with online courses that could easily be revamped to consist of a massive Q&A that responds to the majority of a student's questions, combined with numerous other technologies that are in development throughout the planet. Facial, voice, and text recognition software is utilized to detect probable acts of terrorism and other criminal acts while detecting unprosecuted criminal offenders that are not in custody of the state. Thus, to argue that such technological advancements do not exist within civilization is an extremely invalid claim. In reality, wealthy business owners suppress such technological advancements considering that capitalist societies remain DEPENDENT on human labour in order to increase the purchasing power of citizens and accumulate massive amounts of profits for the wealthy elite. Unemployment would gradually increase resulting in the formation of a socialist or communist revolution amongst the Reserve Army of the Unemployed. What type of system is just if it suppresses any form of NON-PROFITABLE technological advancements within civilization? Inventions should be utilized to increase the HDI (Human Developmental Index) of nations rather than to merely increase the GDP of a state.

United States of American reporters had witnessed Cubans claim that their persons prefer to function as doctors in order to benefit humanity and pursue the knowledge of medicine rather than to function as a waiter or waitress that accumulates profit considering that the humanitarian objective is much more rewarding than the materialistic incentive. One is referencing to the application of the identical model within a PURE-DEMOCRATIC Communist nation rather than a Dictatorship of the Bourgeois that was manipulated by Castro, Zedong, or Stalin.

Civilians shall be willing to attend free educational institutions in order to pursue a subject that suits their interests. Thus, the institutions would appeal to pursuers of medicine, biological, chemistry, machinery, music, painting, writing, athletic hobbies, architecture, and numerous other scientific and artistic subjects within civilization. Subjects shall not be forced to attain an education. However, individuals shall be granted with the EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to pursue their goals and dreams without undergoing issues such as debt or overemployment.

Technological advancements were not prevalent amongst the majority of false-Communist nations due to the continuous embargoes that were performed by the West during the Cold War. However, nations such as Russia had managed to launch the FIRST SATELLITE within space combined with numerous other achievements that were the KEY CAUSE towards the creative and innovative achievements of the West. In reality, The United States of America would have lacked the ability to produce such achievements without the competitive opposition of the USSR. One is capable of remaining competitive amongst one another within a Communist nation through the achievement of inventing and producing products that resolve the errors of a former product, commonly identified as "Trial and Error".... a scientific practice that exists despite the economic system. However, 90% of the population within a capitalistic nation lack the ability to compete with ideas and inventions due to the inability to fund an education.

Continue to memorize that capitalism is the main cause towards the scarcity of resources considering that "Private-Property" provides trans-national corporations such as Nestle with the ability to extract water from the rivers and lakes of Africa, Indian, Asia, and Latin-America in order to accumulate profit from the sales of water bottles. However, farmers lack the ability to produce crops considering that Nestle owns the means of production for primary resources such as WATER, resulting in a dramatic increase of poverty and famine throughout hundreds of dependent nations within the planet Earth.


Not only does the instigator completely ignore my arguments and keep on spinning on this failed ideology, but he also repeats sentences numerous times. After i finished reading my opponent's third post it felt like i had read it two time. It was repetitive and didn't make any sense whatsoever.

First of all, the instigator makes the same mistake most communists does. Which is confusing free-market capitalism with corporatism. In a free market where the government is excluded from intervention, there can be no monopoly, neither can there be any exploitation of workers. As long as there is competition between businesses, workers (if not treated fairly) can threaten to offer their work to a competing business if their current company doesn't offer higher wage or better condition for the employee.
Corporations in a capitalist society are competing to gain the best workers into their own business, meanwhile keeping the best workers out of the competiting business. Which means that they have give workers the best wages and conditions they can in order to attract more skilled workers into their business. The worker gets a good wage and workplace, and the management gets a good worker and therefore presumably maximizing their sales. It's a win-win.

The reason why Soviet union made the first satellite is because they had lots of great scientists, mostly jewish. And exploration projects are by nature non-profitable. You can't make profit from discovery in terms of wealth, and that's why the USSR (for a while) were successful in the space race. However their advancement eventually slowed down very fast.

It is important to mention however, that money under the ideology Sollertis is proposing is completely useless. It's like toilet paper. Money won't be worth anything. Because no one is creating any wealth. And since money only is a symbol of wealth, it's will be worth nothing. The ideas that have presented by the opposition are very dangerous ideas and would completely destroy any country that exists today. No attention is payed whatsoever to the production of basic products, only that the machines will take care of everything. Which is obviously not true, it sounds like it's very easily accomplished but it's far from reality.
And to claim that corporations wouldn't replace employers for machines because it didn't create profit is ridiculous. You would make more money from replacing workers with automated-machines. The reason why machines or robots are replacing everything is because they can't replace everything. And people rather want an educated doctor during a surgery then an unreliable robot. People rather want to meet real people when they go into a store to pay, because humans are social creatures.

To round this debate up i will give a straight answer to the subject of the debate: "Stalin did not Practice Communism Effectively".
Answer: Stalin is not to be blamed for the failure of communism. Stalin just happened to be the dictator that would sooner or later show up in a communist rule. USSR demonstrate true communism in practice, it might be different in theory but reality is not theory. Communism have killed over a hundred million innocent people, that not a small mistake. This is an ideology that needs to be burried because it's evil.
Karl Marx might not have intended to create the most destructive theory ever written. But he was a man that did not practice what he preached. I won't go over Karl Marx's entire life, but he was truly an awful and selfish human being that lived off other people.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Sollertis 7 months ago
My person had underwent technical issues during the third post. Thus, 1-2 paragraphs might've been repeated within the argument. However, certain paragraphs consists of more premises to support the argument within the discussion.
Posted by SactownBoom 7 months ago
Also, the sky is blue.
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