The Instigator
theta_pinch
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
STALIN
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Star Fleet would destroy the Empire

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
STALIN
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/19/2013 Category: Movies
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,889 times Debate No: 42646
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
Votes (2)

 

theta_pinch

Pro

Star Fleet would destroy the Empire from star wars.
STALIN

Con

The Empire from Star Wars would destroy Star Fleet.
Debate Round No. 1
theta_pinch

Pro

I will start out this debate with my opening arguement from te last time I debated this.

"The United Federation of planets would defeat the Empire mainly because of torpedoes. In Voyager endgame it shows a new torpedo that the Federation will eventually use: transphasic torpedoes. There are two main things about transphasic torpedoes. First off they are easily created by modifying a photon torpedo; even Voyager could do it in a few hours with their limited resources. Second of all the way they work; 1. a transphasic torpedo is launched. 2. the torpedo phases out of sync with space time so nothing can stop it except for a beam of energy at the phase variance of the torpedo. 3. It reaches its target and detonates. In the 26th century the Federation has Chroniton torpedoes which can only be stopped with shields at a certain frequency and Quantum Singularity torpedoes which from context suggest when detonated they create a quantum singularity better known as a black hole. I have repeatedly read that star wars shields aren't frequency based nor are their turbolasers, which means the Empire cannot defend against them. It has also been shown that for pretty much every Empire vessel hitting it's reactor core will blow it up so the Torpedoes don't even have to be as powerful. Also in the 26th century the Federation has gone far beyond the travel capabilities of the Empire; they can now fold space allowing them to travel anywhere instantaneously, at this point they are exploring other galaxies something the Empire can't do. I contend that since the Empire has no way of defending against torpedoes and no speed advantage they will lose despite superior numbers and greater energy discharges."
STALIN

Con

I would like to thank Pro for his response. It seems that he just copied and pasted. However Pro did not provide the source.

Anyway, I shall state my arguments.

The Star Wars Empire would win because they have the Death Star. The Death Star is so strong that it can destroy an entire planet. It is almost impossible to destroy.



The Star Wars Empire has super ninja fighters capable of destroying any enemy ships. They can sneak up on enemies and destroy them before they can as much as look that way.




The Star Wars Empire has these ships that are capable of owning all other ships. They have guns on all sides and are capable of just destroying and destroying enemy fighters. Nothing could beat them.



Sources:

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com...
Debate Round No. 2
theta_pinch

Pro

First of all my source is from a previous argument I made on a debate and the things from there come from Memory Alpha the Official star trek wiki, and from Star Trek Online Information.

Second of all Con states the death star is almost impossible to destroy. While this is true as I explained above a transphasic torpedo would bypass all defense measure of the Empire and would be able to travel straight into the core and detonate, destroying the death star. Also it doesn't matter how powerful a weapon is if it doesn't have a chance to fire.

Those super ninja fighters con talks about for one won't be able to get through the USS Enterprise J's shielding. According to Wookiepedia Tie-fighters use lasers as there weapon. There's a reason why lasers were abandoned by the 22nd century in star trek; they were way to weak. The 23rd century phaser was already more powerful than ship based lasers. 400 years later there shielding probably hasn't devolved to something weak enough for a laser to cause any harm.

In Cons third claim con shows a picture of Star Destroyers and says nothing could beat them. However it seemed that Star Destroyers weren't quite as invulnerable as con says in the Battle of Endor as the Millennium Falcon was able to destroy the 19 kilometer behemoths. Also the USS Enterprise J has a much larger range of attack. Photon torpedoes by the 23rd century could already accurately hit 300000 kilometers away and again that was long before the 26th century; so there is sure to have been improvements in range and I said torpedoes are likely Star Fleets best weapon against the Empire.

Finally the USS Voyage defeated Species 8472 and they had a planet destroying device too; keep in mind this is one ship and ten Borg drones defeating a species that is incredibly difficult to hurt.

Sources:
Memory Alpha
Wookiepedia
Star Wars Movies
Star Trek Online Information
Star Trek: Voyager episodes
STALIN

Con

"Also it doesn't matter how powerful a weapon is if it doesn't have a chance to fire."

And if it does, it would destroy a planet(s).

"Those super ninja fighters con talks about for one won't be able to get through the USS Enterprise J's shielding."

I agree, but they would be good for other stuff. The Death Star can own the USS Enterprise though.

"However it seemed that Star Destroyers weren't quite as invulnerable as con says in the Battle of Endor as the Millennium Falcon was able to destroy the 19 kilometer behemoths."

This was largely due to the fact that the Empire had bad commanders while the rebels had good commanders who were rather clever.

Conclusion:

Whatever the Star Wars Empire might lack in technology, they would more than make up in numbers and firepower. Star Wars ninja fighters could simply swarm the enemy from all sides and destroy them quickly. They would be backed up with heavy cruisers that could destroy any of the heavy ships that the enemy might have. And the Death Star could destroy all other defenses. One blast, and even the strongest enemy ship would go down. In addition to the big laser gun, the Death Star has smaller artillery all over it that would be capable of destroying enemy ships. The Death Star is an entire battle station and the equivalent to thousands of enemy ships. My opponent did not prove that there was anything capable of effectively destroying it. And considering the fact that the Empire built 2 such battle stations in the Star Wars movies, they could build more. This means that if the enemy destroyed one Death Star, the Empire would have another ready to go. I have proved that the Empire could use Blitzkrieg strategies to crush any opposing forces. I await further arguments from my opponent.

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 3
theta_pinch

Pro

1. Con claims I have not prove that there is anything capable of destroying it which is FALSE. I have said twice now that a ship could launch a transphasic torpedo at the death star and it would go straight through all of its defenses into the core and blow the death star up. Con is denying that I have given a very efficient method of destroying the death star when I have. A transphasic torpedo as I have said before can go through ANY defense system and can go through any material as if it's not there. There's also another good side to the torpedo plan; they can be launched 300000 km away; well outside the range of any of the death stars weapons. So yes; I have given a very efficient and safe method of blowing up the death star.

2. Con claims the "ninja fighters" could simply swarm over the star ship and destroy it; however right before the conclusion con admits they wouldn't be able to penetrate shields. This claim is a contradiction then, and can be dismissed.

3. "And the Death Star could destroy all other defenses. One blast, and even the strongest enemy ship would go down. In addition to the big laser gun, the Death Star has smaller artillery all over it that would be capable of destroying enemy ships." In my first point I explained that the range of torpedoes exceeds that of the death stars defenses; even phaser have a longer range.


"However it seemed that Star Destroyers weren't quite as invulnerable as con says in the Battle of Endor as the Millennium Falcon was able to destroy the 19 kilometer behemoths."

This was largely due to the fact that the Empire had bad commanders while the rebels had good commanders who were rather clever.
The commanders have nothing to do with the shielding of star destroyers; on the part about rebel commanders being clever, so are the crews in star trek.

And considering the fact that the Empire built 2 such battle stations in the Star Wars movies, they could build more.
According to movies it takes YEARS to build them; plenty of time to get to the location and blow it up.

Con needs to explain how the Empire is defending against Transphasic Torpedoes and Chroniton Torpedoes.

Sources:
same sources as before





STALIN

Con

"Con claims I have not prove that there is anything capable of destroying it which is FALSE. I have said twice now that a ship could launch a transphasic torpedo at the death star and it would go straight through all of its defenses into the core and blow the death star up. Con is denying that I have given a very efficient method of destroying the death star when I have. A transphasic torpedo as I have said before can go through ANY defense system and can go through any material as if it's not there. There's also another good side to the torpedo plan; they can be launched 300000 km away; well outside the range of any of the death stars weapons. So yes; I have given a very efficient and safe method of blowing up the death star."

This may be true, but it is far from impossible to block the torpedo.

"Con claims the "ninja fighters" could simply swarm over the star ship and destroy it; however right before the conclusion con admits they wouldn't be able to penetrate shields. This claim is a contradiction then, and can be dismissed."

I stated that ninja fighters could destroy weaker enemy ships and leave the stronger ones for the stronger ships/Death Star(s).

"In my first point I explained that the range of torpedoes exceeds that of the death stars defenses; even phaser have a longer range."

Yes but all the Death Star would need to do it go boom boom and there you go, the enemy is dead. I don't think my opponent realizes exactly how powerful the Death Star really is. He keeps going on about its lack of range and vulnerability to torpedoes. My opponent doesn't realize that getting close enough to launch those torpedoes will be almost impossible considering the size of the Star Wars Empire fleet. The Death Star can whipe out an entire planet while being heavily defended by other ships. Therefore, my opponent has not proved that you can destroy the Death Star.

"The commanders have nothing to do with the shielding of star destroyers; on the part about rebel commanders being clever, so are the crews in star trek."

The Empire would have won if the rebels had not cheated. The rebels had weak technology and ships. This argument does not support my opponent.

"Con needs to explain how the Empire is defending against Transphasic Torpedoes and Chroniton Torpedoes."

The Empire also has all sorts of shields. The Star Destroyers have shields and so does the Death Star.

Conclusion

My opponent did not respond to my arguments about the Empire fleet being much larger. I await further arguments from my opponents.


Sources
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.com...
Debate Round No. 4
theta_pinch

Pro

Con says it is far from impossible to block the torpedo which is true. Unfortunately there is ONLY ONE WAY TO STOP THE TORPEDO that one way is to tune a directed energy beam to the phase variance of the torpedo; there is no material that can stop it because it's out of phase with other matter and energy; and in the star wars universe blasters are NOT frequency based so there is ABSOLUTELY NO DEFENSE THE EMPIRE CAN POSSIBLY PUT UP.


"I stated that ninja fighters could destroy weaker enemy ships and leave the stronger ones for the stronger ships/Death Star(s)."
The problem with that strategy is that even Enterprise the 22nd century ship couldn't be destroyed by lasers and it didn't even have shielding. According to the specs of the Danube Class Runabout which is one of the weakest kinds of ships; and its shields have a maximum capacity of 5.67 petajoules; so no; those "ninja fighter" aren't going to be destroying any ships.

Con says I don't realize how powerful the death star is; I do however realize how powerful a machine that can destroy planets is. Con claims that a ship couldn't get close enough to the death star to launch a torpedo because of the Empires fleet of ships. Unfortunately the range of star trek weapons would still succeed over a star destroyer blockade of the death star because it is impossible for the Empire to create a blockade large enough. Heres the proof: The most common star destroyer requires a minumum crew of 5000. A blockade around the death star; what con is presumably proposing; would need to be able to protect a volume of space 9.047786842E20 km. The most common type of star destroyer is an Imperial 2 class star destroyer which is 1.6 km. According to StarDestroyer.net the range of a turbo laser is at most 95 km so each star destroyer can protect 3591364.002 km of space. If you divide 9.047786842E20 by 3591364.002 you get 251931768457928; that is the number of star destroyers needed to protect every cubic kilometer of space within the range of a torpedo. Now if you multiply that by 5000 the minimum crew of a star destroyer you get a minimum crew number of 1,259,658,842,289,640,000. There are 1.5 million conquered worlds. If we estimate that each has about 10 billion people on each we get a number of citizens of the Empire as 1.5 quadrillion. So at least 1/58 the population of the Empire must be a crew member on one of those ships. It seems very infeasible for the Empire to be able to train 1/58 of the population to be crew members and also have ships and space stations elsewhere operating. Please remember that 1/58 is only allows for a minimum crew for each destroyer. Hence this plan is not feasible. Also; among the citizens of the Federation in the 26th century are romulans who have cloaking technology; so, the USS Enterprise J could use a cloaking device to sneak past the star destroyers and other ships to launch the torpedo. Therefore, I have proven that the Federation can destroy the death star.

"The commanders have nothing to do with the shielding of star destroyers; on the part about rebel commanders being clever, so are the crews in star trek."

The Empire would have won if the rebels had not cheated. The rebels had weak technology and ships. This argument does not support my opponent.

Can con please explain both how they cheated and what that did to the shields? To my knowledge cheating doesn't have an effect on the shields.


"Con needs to explain how the Empire is defending against Transphasic Torpedoes and Chroniton Torpedoes."

The Empire also has all sorts of shields. The Star Destroyers have shields and so does the Death Star.

Con claims the shields will stop them however that is not true. That is because a chroniton torpedo is in a state of temporal flux meaning that shields have no effect on them unless they are tuned to a certain frequency; star wars shields aren't frequency based so any star wars shield is useless against them. For transphasic torpedoes no material can block them nor any shield because the torpedo is phased out of sync with normal matter and energy. In this state matter and energy simply pass right through it as if it wasn't even there. Therefore con has not given any defense against either chroniton or transphasic torpedoes.

CONCLUSION
Con repeatedly claims that the size and power of the Empire out matches the range and technology of Star Fleet and that I have not responded to cons arguments of the Empire fleets size even though I have repeatedly responded about the size. Con doesn't seem to realize that the only defenses against the torpedoes I have mentioned are based on a principle not used by the Empire. Con also has not given any defense against them relying on the claim that star wars shields can stop them even though they can't. Con also seems to think that the cheating of the rebels had something to do with the shields of the star destroyers not protecting them; unless by cheating con means they somehow got on the star destroyers and disabled their shields. Con also claims that the Empires fleet can stop the ships when a plan of blockading the death star is clearly infeasible due to the amount of ships and the number of crew required.

Sources:
wookiepedia
memory alpha
star trek online information
star destroyer.net
Danube class specs
STALIN

Con

Just reread what I wrote earlier. I have no more arguments. My opponent mostly talked about how Star Fleet has superior technology. He went on and on about how their torpedoes are really effective. I however showed how the Star Wars Fleet could use superior strategy and numbers to counter all of this. There is no longer any reason for me to post any more arguments. I thank my opponent for this debate.

Sources: All of the above.
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by derjungefuchs 3 years ago
derjungefuchs
Why is it that Startrek ships move faster and have more manuverability. Warp drives allow faster than light travel, and the only way the death star could hi the enterprise is if the enterprise was to not move and be right in the deathstar's sights. If it wasn't it would take the death star a long time to turn and fire. Power doesn't equal speed or accuracy. A planet is a huge freaking target and would be hard to hit conversly trying to hit a moving ship with the deathstar's lazer would prove difficult.
Posted by STALIN 3 years ago
STALIN
kk
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
@pro. I know they do, that's what I referenced.
"Chroniton torpedoes were ship-mounted weapons utilized by the the Krenim, a Delta Quadrant species which possessed deadly weapons based on temporal science. ... This timeline later negated when the Krenim weapon ship was erased from history, reversing all of the damage it had caused to the timeline from history." -Memory Alpha http://en.memory-alpha.org...

Those and other weapon systems which are seen in Star Trek, but are not weapons in the hands of the federation, are not the best things to use in an argument about the Federation as opposed to all of Star Trek itself.
Posted by MrV666 3 years ago
MrV666
Impossible to destroy the Death Star, eh? Then I wonder who left that hole in it.....
Posted by theta_pinch 3 years ago
theta_pinch
I didn't simply say the have transphasic torpedoes I explained that they phase themselves to pass through normal matter and energy.
Posted by theta_pinch 3 years ago
theta_pinch
Actually memory alpha does have an article on chroniton torpedoes
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
---VOTING RFD---
I am reading this debate from the perspective of a war, not a single battle.

CONDUCT: Tied.

S&G: Tied (neither committed to Jar Jar speak).

ARGUMENT: Tired. While pro did not meet his BoP of the Empire being destroyed, con's argument lacked necessary details and proper counters, he even refused cross examination (in addition to lack of names in his argument, leading me to suspect he hasn't watched Star Wars).

R2. Pro began his argument with deus ex machina, or as he called it "transphasic torpedoes;" About the weakest point to begin with. Con started on stronger footing with the Death Star, but immediately talked about "super ninja fighters," without sourcing what the heck ship he was talking about. His source this round was a very good Star Wars joke, and would have been perfect in a troll debate; yet was useless in this one.
R3. Pro again talks about how in the future the federation will send back deus ex machina to help themselves out. Then talks about the shielding of the USS Enterprise J (a ship from a possible future, with an incomplete design). Pro showed improvement in mentioning a source when talking about tie-fighters (not sure if these are the ninjas con mentioned), but failed to link it. He then gave decent details on the Star Destroyers (why con did not name them previously I haven't a clue), but argues in the future the federation will have even better ships.
R4. Mostly rinse and repeat, oh a large point made of Chroniton Torpedo's, which according to Memory Alpha don't exist.
R5. Pro brought up some very funny math (a blockade need not include every inch... however it did remind me of the hilariously low number of clones needed to subjugate each planet in episode 2), and gave con a final chance to explain how the rebels cheated in addition to some other issues; to which con did nothing.

SOURCES: Both fail pretty badly at this. Next time please provide links and in text citations (which information is from which si
Posted by STALIN 3 years ago
STALIN
Dude the debate is over lol.
Posted by theta_pinch 3 years ago
theta_pinch
In response to STALIN's last comment: I showed that the strategy of superior numbers was infeasible; the only ship that would have been powerful enough would have been a star destroyer and there are way to few of those to be effective.
Posted by theta_pinch 3 years ago
theta_pinch
DudeStop; what does that even mean?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
theta_pinchSTALINTied
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Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments... Odd to have such a detailed one, when the vote ended up being null.
Vote Placed by Gaurdian_Rock 3 years ago
Gaurdian_Rock
theta_pinchSTALINTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's arguments were largely ignored by pro, who did not seem to understand that numbers and above all better generals are the deciding factors in almost all battle, take the battle at Cannae, Hannibal's army of 35,000, kills an upwards of 85,000 Romans. Simply saying they have transphasic torpedoes does not warrant a good argument.