Star Wars Plot Hole: Luke Skywalker's Name.
Debate Rounds (4)
Many people say a huge plot hole in Star Wars is not only the Skywalker name, but the fact that Luke was hidden on Tatooine. I feel that there is no problem with either of these.
Pro will argue that the above is a plot hole. I will argue against.
For what is or isn't canon I usually refer to http://www.theforce.net...
I think that it serves as a good reference.
Since the version of canon I posted has been questioned in the comments section....I am posting another link about Star Wars canon. This is the standard definition of Star Wars canon.
First round is for acceptance. I certainly have no problem if my opponent wishes to make a small opening statement.
Again, since it has been claimed in the comments that this is a trap. I fully intend to stick to film for the main source of information for anything that I present from the Star Wars universe. There may be pieces of non film information that is used in supporting the main statements. However, it will only back up what is already seen on film.
As can be seen in the comments, we have agreed to use the tvtropes.org definition of plot hole:
"Plot Holes are those gaps in a story where things happen without a logical reason." http://tvtropes.org...
Both sides may refer to the site for further detailing, but we both agree that from this point onward, we'll be sticking to internal logic of the Star Wars universe.
I am more than thrilled for this.
I would like to thank The_Scapegoat_bleats for accepting this debate. This is a debate that I look forward to. I love discussing the Star Wars Universe. A note about sources. If I speak about the films or comments in the commentary....that is directly where I am taking them from. I will mention the film by name once, after that I will abbreviate to save characters.
Here is a link to the six scripts. Everyone should remember the rules from my first statement that films take precedent.
This debate will be on an alleged plot hole in the Star Wars films. This plot hole surrounds the name Luke Skywalker and the decision to hide him on Tatooine.
As of yet I don't know what my opponent will bring into this debate. But for my first round I will focus on what typically is brought up on this subject. The first is that the Skywalker name would have been quite a recognizable name. I mean isn't that why they changed Leia's name? Basically everyone would know the name Skywalker. A kid named Luke Skywalker turns up. Why isn't this obvious to Vader, Palpatine, anyone in the Empire or Rebellion or pretty much anyone else? The second stems off the fact that Yoda and Obi-Wan decide to hide Luke on Tatooine. Really? The home planet of his father?
My job here is to explain the actions. So let's hop to it.
Personally, I think the above arguments fall apart when you ask a simple question. Why? Readers may ask, "Why what?" Why would it be obvious to Vader, et al. that Luke Skywalker is the son Anakin Skywalker? At this point anyone reading this is probably asking about whether I have seen the movies or not. I have. Let's talk this out though.
Who knew about the kids?
Remember the movies portray that it is forbidden that Jedi marry. This can cause them to become emotionally attached. Anakin tells us that attachment is forbidden in Attack of the Clones (ATOC). Padme tells Anakin in ATOC that she will not let him give up his future for her. They marry in secret. In Revenge of the Sith (ROTS) we see that they are still keeping it secret. The knowledge that they were married was not common knowledge. Neither would the knowledge that Padme was pregnant with Anakin's child.
I think the films are quite obvious on the fact that marriage is taboo for Jedi. Here are some other links on the subject.
At the end of ROTS Yoda,we see Kenobi and Bail Organa discussing keeping the children secret and safe. Organa also commands that Threepio's memory be wiped. So there is no reason to think outside of a small group of people that anyone knew the children were alive.
Vader was told by Palpatine that he had killed Padme in his rage. It makes logical sense that Palpatine had heard that she had died and believed the children to be dead. If he even knew that there were children. Remember that Organa reacted with surprise at the announcement that they would have to hurry to save the children. Also during the funeral procession we see that Padme still looks pregnant (ROTS). In the script Yoda actually has dialogue that she must still look pregnant.
So there is no reason for the vast majority of the universe to know that 1. Padme and Anakin were married. 2. Padme was pregnant. 3. Padme was pregnant with Anakin's children. 4. The children lived.
No place like home.
Another argument is that Tatooine is obviously a bad place to hide Luke. It is Anakin's home planet after all. But is it really such a bad place?
Tatooine is remote. Anakin refers to is as being in the outer rim in The Phantom Menace. The planet is near binary suns as seen in A New Hope. The entire planet is a desert. It is desolate. Luke says, "Well, if there's a bright center to the universe, you're on the planet that it's farthest from." There are not many people on this planet.
We know that the Republic did not extend to Tatooine. Watto says that he needs something more real than Republic money in TPM and that it is no good "out here." There is no reason to think the Empire had extended that far in twenty years. They were at war with the rebellion
This lack of law made the planet hostile. Obi Wan describes Mos Eisley in ANH, "Mos Eisley Spaceport. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious."
It is typical in sci fi movies, Star Wars included, for planets to be pretty much universal. That is the entire planet seems to have the same Eco system, climate, etc. This means that based solely off the films we can concluded that the entire of Tatooine is like this. Obviously it would be a burning desert given the two suns. But because of it being in the Outer Rims and an unforgiving environment, it will be mostly unsettled. Large cities would be dens for smuggler and criminals.
There are Tusken Raiders (Sand People). We see them in ANH, TPM and ATOC. And at least one gangster in Jabba the Hutt, who we see quite a bit in Return of the Jedi. So the planet is hostile.
If someone were out searching the galaxy for the the a child of Vader that they really have no clue exists in the first place......Tatooine would not be a likely place to go searching.
Once again, I would like to point out that there is no reason to think that a child of Vader's exists. So there is really no reason for anyone to think odd of Luke's name. I plan to cover this a bit more in my next round. But for now we keep going.
We don't know much about Shmi Skywalker's past from the movies. There is a bit in the EU, but nothing to really add. But remember. She was a slave. Not very many people would remember her. And fewer would know details of her life life her past, her family, etc. But there is no logical reason to think that she would be remembered by many or that many would know anything about the details of her life. Evidence of this is that we are not given anything in the EU. Nor is there any reason to think that many would remember Anakin. I don't remember the names of class mates that I was best friends with in Elementary School. And that is with in the friendly confines of the US of A. I would imagine that in a hostile place like Tatooine, one made friends much like one does in war, that is one does not get to close.
Luke comes with a false past. We have evidence that Luke has been told a false story about his past. How detailed that false story is we don't know. But we know that he thinks his father is dead and that he was a navigator on a Spice freighter. We also know that he is curious about his father. He shows immediate interest when his uncle mentions Kenobi and his father in the same sentence. All of this we see in ANH. He has probably asked other questions. This evidence indicates that most likely some kind of back story has been made up to explain to Luke his origins.
There is also no reason for Vader to come back to this planet for any reason. He tells Padme in ANH about how much he hates the sand. And let's face it, those sand storms and the heat would be a killer in that suit. His mother is dead. So he has no connections to the planet.
Aside from that he is pretty busy being the right hand man of the Emperor.
We see clearly in the films that the marriage of Padme and Anakin is a secret. That the fact that she is pregnant with Anakin's child is only known to a few. The vast majority of the universe would not know that she was pregnant with Anakin's children. Therefore, there is no reason to think anyone would be looking for children. The remote planet of Tatooine is a perfect a perfect place to hide Luke. No one one think to look for him there. It is Anakin's home planet after all. It outside the control of the Empire. Kenobi is there to watch over Luke. And, as we see in ANH, there is easy access to ships traveling off the planet. It was quite possibly the perfect planet on which to hide Luke.
The obvious first: SPOILER WARNING! If you have not seen all Episodes of Star Wars, do not read on beyond this point!
My opponent has asked the right question, and I will take my opening argument from there. I will save my rebuttal for the next round so that we have an even number of rebuttals. It is only fair.
I will refer only to the movies, no expanded universe material. I have no access to the prequel episodes, the scripts my opponent presented will have to suffice, even though they differ slightly from the movies. In case I have something wrong, my opponent may freely point me to it with a source of his own.
The question I'm trying to answer is: WHY?
More specifically: Why would someone take great care to hide Leia in the perfect place - in plain sight, with new name, prominent parents and a bright political future, where no sane person would hide a child and nobody would come looking - and yet hide Luke on Anakin Skywalker's home world, under his name, in the care of his stepbrother and even in the home of Anakin's own mother - where anybody might ACCIDENTALLY discover the boy?
Let's have a look at the facts:
Anakin Skywalker, as seen in "The Phantom Menace", was a local hero on Tatooine: the only human ever to win a pod race, which is a sport that keeps the entire planet in its grip, even children. Which means its only logical that the legend of the human boy who won will have been carried over through the years.
My opponent has agreed in the comments to apply human psychology to the characters in the film. If we were to assume that the characters just act inexplicably because they are aliens, this discussion would be pointless.
If the characters are motivated like humans, it is not at all logical that Anakin's out-of-the-blue triumph in the pod race has been forgotten by Luke's coming of age. For example, most US denizens in our world still remember the 1980 "Miracle on Ice". That's 34 years in the past, and not likely to be forgotten any time soon. Since pod racing seems to be the only major sports event on Tatooine, it would be in the interest of the organizer - crime lord Jabba the Hutt, who's still in charge by the time of "Return of the Jedi" - to keep the hopes of all human children up to some day become a hero like Anakin. This ensures paying audience and serves a great distraction from the dire life on Tatooine my opponent described. It's like the Roman motto "panem et circenses" (bread and games) to keep the public entertained so that they will serve better.
There is no internal logic explaining why there are no trading cards, documentaries or something like that to celebrate local underdog hero Anakin Skywalker. Even if not officially endorsed by Jabba (Anakin was a slave, after all), he would still be the secret hero of all slaves. The only event on Tatooine that could have ended slavery would have been the Empire's invasion, which must have taken place shortly before "A New Hope", since Luke has explicitly stated that he remembers days on Tatooine before the Empire, and the Senate which opposed the worst transgressions of the Emperor is disbanded well into that film.
So, let it be a few years. We have no evidence of pod racing in "A New Hope", so let's say it was banned by the Empire - for whatever reasons - and slavery abolished. It is only logical that children would start soapbox racing, or have pod racer toys. Luke is playing with a toy spaceship in "A New Hope". So, the legend would still continue, much like children still play cowboys and Indians all over our world, 90 years after the end of the American Indian Wars in 1924.
Anakin Skywalker would thus be a household name by any internal logic. And even if the Lars family were to forbid Luke access to pod racing toys, Luke has many friends who come from more liberal families who allow those to attend the Academy. They would have played with Luke, and would have been thrilled to tell him he shares the name of a legend.
Now let us leave Darth Vader out of the picture for the moment.
Let us focus on Owen Lars.
Luke's uncle is not intent to hide Luke from his father whom he believes dead for all we can tell - at least there is no indication that Owen and Beru know what became of Anakin, since Beru FONDLY remembers Anakin, SMILINGLY comparing Luke to him in "A New Hope". If either knew of Darth Vader, they would react differently, most likely abhorred.
Owen Lars is ACTUALLY trying to hide Anakin Skywalker from Luke, not the other way 'round.
I'll refer to dialogue from "A New Hope" for evidence, corroborated by the script my opponent linked to:
LUKE: No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a
BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your
father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten
BEN: I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have
this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He
feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic
crusade like your father did.
( http://www.scenebyscene.net... )
So, this is where my opponent errs in his conclusions.
Yes, Kenobi is trying to hide Luke from Vader. He took him to a desolate place where Luke would have the love of a family. All that can be explained, even though there is a risk that Vader would one day want to erase all traces of who he was. Vader cannot know that his brother Owen does not know who he is. And then he'd come to Tatooine and find Luke without ever looking for him.
Even worse: Kenobi is basically still on the run from the Empire, and he's living under his real name, too. NOBODY would fall for this slight change of a first name. Even Luke quickly figured out where to turn. And Kenobi's hideout was apparently known on Alderaan, since Leia knew EXACTLY where to turn for help. Surely, eventually some servant would have sold that information to the Empire, had the planet not been blown to bits.
Kenobi is not well-hidden, and thus actually endangers the boy he is trying to protect.
But if Owen Lars had some reason not to change Luke's name, Kenobi would not have had any way of changing that. He should have changed his, but that's another plot hole.
Here, we need to find a reason why Owen Lars as Luke's legal guardian didn't change Luke's name.
The problem is not with Luke being discovered by Darth Vader, Owen Lars tries to protect Luke from getting involved with the civil war.
And if we take that into account, Luke's name makes no sense at all.
Why - if Owen wants to keep Luke's father a secret - does he not claim to be Luke's father? Why not name the boy Luke Lars and tell him that crazy Ben in the desert will some day come and claim he was another man's son, thus insulting his mother Beru as an adulteress, and Luke should not listen to the guy?
What reason could Owen have to point Luke in the direction that his father was a pod racing hero - since I established that for Luke, who's playing with space ship toys and bragging about his pilot skills, there's no reasonable way he wouldn't know of the legendary Anakin Skywalker - if Owen desperately wants Luke to be a farmer and stay out of trouble?
It totally contradicts the story, if Owen is also told by Kenobi that the boy needs to be hidden from the Empire.
It can also not be that he wants to honor his stepbrother. Because if it was about that, he would surely tell Luke that his father was a hero, but kept the name secret, not the other way 'round.
So what we have is this:
One child was hidden perfectly, given a new identity.
The other child, however, is hidden on a planet where Vader might come looking for his stepbrother, to eliminate the last witnesses of who he once was - this would only be logical, since Vader is very conflicted about his actions (killing children) at the end of "Revenge of the Sith" and we have seen him kill a whole tribe of Tusken raiders in "The Clone Wars" in a fit of rage and revenge. There's also little reason to believe he would not some day come and take revenge on Watto and Jabba the Hutt for the slavery that cost him his beloved mother.
In any case, hiding Luke on a planet with personal ties to Darth Vader is a certain risk. And indeed, Luke does get involved because of R2D2 landing on Tatooine and Vader giving chase. So, this risk is REAL and EVIDENT, not some weird conjecture. It happened, after all.
And we have an uncle who doesn't want Luke to discover who his father was, yet has him bear the same surname, on a planet where his father must be a legend of sorts.
There is no logical reason to assume that either Kenobi or Owen Lars would ever take such risks in their respective goals.
Now, in the comments, I said that this kind of disregard becomes a plot hole if it could have been fixed, but wasn't.
How could it have been fixed?
Anakin's surname could have been anything but Skywalker. That would have solved most plot problems.
Owen and Beru would believe Anakin dead, because Kenobi must have lied to them as he lied to Luke (see above). They honor his existence by telling Luke he had a father named Anakin Skywalker, who was a decent man, while the real father was for instance called "Starkiller" (as in the very first script draft), who happens to be a local hero.
If Owen doesn't know Vader is his brother, he would see no reason to relocate, assuming that the Empire won't come looking in the farthest reaches of the Outer Rim.
And Kenobi - well, he would know that there is a certain risk involved, but couldn't possibly tell Owen and Beru to move, because what reason should the Empire have to look on Tatooine? He would have to come clean, and that he doesn't want. So he has no choice but to stay and hope to be able to protect the boy, should the Empire ever come looking. After Owen changed the name of the boy, Kenobi would have to admit that this is enough to keep the boy out of trouble. Just to protect his story.
It is thus evident that the name and location of Luke Skywalker are a plot hole.
I intended to post a spoiler alert in my first post. Thank you. I wonder if anyone reading knows who Mike Eruzione is? If not, I will touch on it later.
To err is human.....or alien too perhaps.
Let me start by that saying movie characters can be fallible. They can make mistakes. They can misjudge. I am not saying this in an attempt to dismiss any and all alleged plot holes. It is more to point out that it is with in the realm of possibility that characters made judgements that were no optimal.
Real life people make mistakes too. Chamberlain was too soft on Hitler. Hitler didn't attack Dunkirk. The Allied wasted much time in a futile attack in the Netherlands. Chances are all of those mistakes were done after careful consideration. I mean the appropriate people would have counseled all Fellowship of the Ring style and laid out plans. But they were still mistakes.
We see Yoda, Kenobi and Organa that decide the fate of the twins. Also, that is why Leia knows to find Kenobi on Tatooine. Her adopted father was there when he said the would take Luke. But we have three characters deciding the fate. Yoda had just lost to the Emperor. Organa had seen a child murdered in front of him. Kenobi thought he had killed someone that was a brother to him. Not to mention the fact that the Republic had fallen down around them and most, possibly all, the Jedi had been killed. We don't know if they have had contact with any other members of the fledgling Rebellion. And for that matter they probably wouldn't risk putting that out there in any form that could be intercepted. So these three decided. In the heat of battle. With the limited resources and connections they had at their disposal.
Obviously, an optimal situation would involve both children being hid in such seclusion as it was not even remotely thought to be close to possible that they are found or they find out who they are. But these were far from optimal conditions.
I do apologize. I had forgotten about Padme's line in TPM about the Republic's anti slave laws. This also adds to the fact that Tatooine was at least under the Republic, but very loosely. The following link is about Tatooine:
It should be noted that some of this page is canon and some not.
Tatooine dropped out of the Old Republic. Later it rejoined technically, being that it was part of the Arkanis sector. In reality the Hutts ruled the planet. When the Empire took over, the Hutts "resumed their alliance."
The films do not show this. However, the film does show us some telling things. We see slavery in Jabba' s Palace. Han Solo is a smuggler sitting in the bar. A criminal with death sentences in multiple systems sitting at the bar. The cantina crowd goes back to normal quite quickly after Kenobi cuts off the criminals arm and after Solo kills Greedo. This suggest that they are accustomed to this. And just the way that Kenobi describes it in ANH suggests the lawlessness of the place. This means that the Empire presence was small and/or the presence there did not care enough to enforce law.
This would make sense. I mean who would want to be stationed there. This is also evident in the films. When the storm troopers are searching for the droids they simply bypass locked doors. Surely that is not standard protocol. But they simply skip locked doors while searching for droids that contain the plans to the Death Star.
The films also show Jabba seemingly getting more powerful as the films move along. He shouldn't be getting stronger if the Empire had a strong presence. So the idea still stands that Tatooine would be a place to go to disappear.
Anakin the Local Hero
I think that my opponent over estimates the popularity of Anakin Skywalker. Prior to TPM he had never won a race. He had never even completed a race.
Remember when I asked about Mike Eruzione? That was the US player that put the hockey team up over the Russians. Sometimes we remember events, but not specifics like names.
In Anakin's case this is probably much more likely. He was a slave. He wins one race. And then he disappears. It would be very easy for the every day person to forget the details of this. Especially considering what all happens immediately after this.
Anakin is seemingly sold to Jinn. And immediately leaves. When someone grows up in an environment like that...it is kind of like a war situation. You never know when someone is not coming back. Shmi was kidnapped by Sand People. Luke was likewise ambushed. When Someone disappears. They just go about their lives.
A bit on Kenobi
I know this is a separate alleged plot hole, but Ben Kenobi really doesn't sound a lot like Obi-Wan Kenobi. It is the Old Ben Kenobi that does. And he wasn't always old.
Kenobi didn't choose Tatooine. He stayed there to protect Luke. Also, below is a link:
It is the FBI Top Ten. Notice that all members have an alias that includes their last name. And nine of the ten had aliases that included some part of their first or middle name These are the guys that the FBI thinks is top priority. It stands to reason that anyone that was outside the top ten would react much the same way. I am no psychologist, but I imagine there is something hard about letting go of one's identity. Besides that, you see that most have multiple aliases. It is possible that Kenobi had one alias for this person and one alias with that person. Keeping the name Kenobi for Luke.
Hiding Luke from and Luke from Vader.
I really don't see where I erred. I said that Luke seemed to have a back story to explain this origins. I think that the Aunt and Uncle are doing both. They hide Vader from Luke with the back story and it helps hide him from Vader.
I see no reason they would not know. When some dude in a robe comes and hands you a kid with the last name of your step mother...it would stand to reason there would be some questions. It not for that then there would be no reason to lie to Luke about who his father was.
It is quite clear that Kenobi is also performing a dual job of hiding Luke from Vader and Vader from Luke. He blatantly lies about Anakin wanting Luke to have his light saber and that Anakin was killed by Vader. He was trying to do two things there: 1. To give Luke an immediate reason to want to destroy Vader. 2. to give Luke a positive image of his father. This does two things: 1. Reinforce the first point. 2. Softens the blow of his father being Vader.
What's in a name?
It is much more critical that Leia has her name changed. Bail Organa was a senator. He was visible to many people. Being that he was high profile a name change was crucial. Obviously changing Luke's name would have been optimal, but they did not.
I touched on earlier that it seems hard to let go of one's identity in the case of FBI most wanted lists. I would imagine that that possibly played a factor in keeping the Skywalker name. Kenobi saw Anakin as a brother. He quite possibly did not want to see his name die.
I think that many people mistakenly think that some of the characters are much more popular in the Star Wars Universe than they really are. It stands to reason that the members of the Senate would be somewhat known. But the Jedi are really people that work behind the scenes. They are not out in the spot light. There is evidence of this in the films.
In TPM the droid that meets Kenobi and Jinn tells Gunray that she believes they are Jedi knights. She didn't name them. Watto did not seem to recognize them from anyone else. Tion Medon in ROTS greets Kenobi as "Young Jedi" not by name. There are other examples, but it stands to reason that they would not have been commonly recognizable. I doubt most people could name more than two or three generals from WW2. And Jedi seem to be very behind the scene and mysterious.
During the takeover of the Senate, Anakin had already been renamed Darth Vader. So there would have been some confusion among anyone that had information because of this. Couple that with the fact that he has to suit up means that it is actually very doubtful many people know Vader's true identity.
Vader returning to Tatooine
There is no reason to think that Vader would ever return to Tatooine. As Anakin he expressed his feelings about not liking the planet. Ad there is nothing there for him. Owen Lars was his step brother and had no connection to him. There was no reason to hate Watto. He and his mother seemed to be taken care of. And killing Jabba would have been bad for relations. Besides that he was busy hunting down and killing Jedi, helping oversee the building of the Death Star and all the other things that go with being the Emperor's right hand man.
Dude can you Cliff Note that novel?
Characters can and will make mistakes. And the decision to hide the twins was done in far from perfect conditions.
I would also like to point out that they were hiding the children from the Emperor, not Vader. At the time they met in ROTS Kenobi thought Anakin to be dead. Lucas confirms this in the commentary.
There is still no reason to think that there are any Skywalker younglings walking around anyway.
In our normal lives we forget sports heroes. Anakin was far from a local hero. He won one race and then left.
Tatooine is a remote planet. The Empire presence is minimal.
Most criminals that use alias use some form of their name. Most have multiple aliases. It is possible that Kenobi made a decision to keep the Skywalker
Jedi were most likely not famous. Skywalker had changed his name when he performed the tasks that involved the take over of the Republic. During this take over he had to don the suit. Because of this it is most likely that there were few that actually knew who Vader truly was.
Vader had no reason to return to Tatooine. But once again. When the decision was made to hide the twins it was thought that Vader was dead.
This is a case of the characters doing the best they could under the circumstances.
Congratulations on the Eruzione maneuver! I will refute it later.
To err is ... err?
Resting the fate of the universe on one hast decision that can not be revoked because - well, just because, apparently - seems odd for the wise Jedi. It just creates a new plot hole, and does nothing to mend the existing one.
Some time between Episode 3 and 4, rather early on, actually, Kenobi learnt of Vader's survival and identity, as Vader proceeded to eliminate all Jedi.
And yet my opponent claims that even at that time he did not warn Owen Lars or remove him to another planet? Or at least suggested renaming Luke? That makes no sense. Especially if we were to assume that Owen and Kenobi BOTH knew that Anakin had turned evil (see my opponent's previous round).
Well, one thing after the other.
Three people decided in a hurry, then split up, let to their own further decisions? For argument's sake.
Ok, so Kenobi is alone on Tatooine, without any contact, on a remote planet, and SOMEHOW magically learns that Darth Vader is alive. It must be magic, for by my opponent's reasoning Tatooine would be the last planet to hear of that name. And when he does find out, Kenobi decides to just sit it out on the one planet Vader has family ties to.
He does not venture out there and tries to finish his job of killing Vader while he's still young, he just sits there in the desert and waits while Yoda and he become too weak to face Vader.
Now, don't anybody tell me they know the future and so on. If Kenobi knew that he would become a ghost - and far more powerful than Vader could ever imagine - he would have faced Vader earlier. We know that Jedi only can see possible futures (from Yoda in "Empire Strikes back"), and the prospect of becoming more powerful and being able to destroy the Emperor and Vader would at LEAST have driven Kenobi to make a move and meet up with Yoda, to regroup and reconsider the HASTY decision from some years before. Things have changed, but nobody reacts? Geez, no wonder the Jedi got eradicated, if they all were THAT passive. And after such a hard war, too... No, it makes no sense that nobody tries to do ANYTHING.
Then there's the problem of Yoda knowing of Luke. If Yoda knew of Luke since his birth, and waited for Kenobi to train the boy, WHY DID HE REFUSE TO TEACH LUKE in "The Empire Strikes Back", claiming Luke to be "too old"? Has Kenobi waited too long to begin training? Why? Owen Lars? Kenobi is a powerful Jedi. Surely he is not afraid of Owen. He speaks disrespectfully of him, as I showed last round. Those three made a mistake, you say. And in 21 YEARS Kenobi never gave that a second thought and TRIED to support Luke in moving away from home? Surreptitiously guiding him towards some kind of training? Way to "watch over" the "New Hope".
Why did Yoda not come for the boy a few years before that? Why did he not call out to Kenobi through the Force to start preparing the boy? Instead, he grew old and grumpy and would have sent Luke away, abandoning all hope for the universe, after only 20 years in a swamp? Yoda is hundreds of years old, he surely would have remained at least SANE in the solitude.
So, this alleged explanation is none, I'm afraid. A mistake could have been noticed and corrected, and there's no reason to believe otherwise. Because after the chance meeting in the desert, Kenobi SUDDENLY decides to tell Luke EVERYTHING, even though Luke is still firmly in his uncle's grasp. It makes no sense.
Also, Owen's decision not to rename Luke - which is the ACTUAL plot hole, as pointed out above - is not explained by the psychological pressure on the Master of all Jedi, a fabled Jedi Knight and one of the leaders of the later Rebellion and tough politician, runner-up for the election for chancellor. Owen decided to keep Anakin Skywalker a secret, but did not rename his nephew accordingly. The plot hole remains unaddressed so far.
" an optimal situation would involve both children being hid in such seclusion as it was not even remotely thought to be close to possible that they are found or they find out who they are. "
And the only other alternative is to allow Luke to keep his family name, which greatly differs from that of his family, raising lots of questions. For example, has anybody ever wondered why Luke - until "Return of the Jedi" NEVER even MENTIONS a mother?
As for my opponent's argument: that's called a "False dichotomy": "If we can't PROPERLY protect the boy, let's just stop TRYING at all!"
That makes no sense.
So, we agree that slavery was never really abolished on Tatooine. Thanks, I will get to that again later.
Anakin the Local hero
From the script my opponent linked above:
"KITSTER : There are so many of us who want you to stay, Annie... You're a
ANAKIN : I... (looks to SHMI) I... have to go.
KITSTER : Well.
ANAKIN : Well.
KITSTER : Thank's for every moment you've been here. You're my best friend.
ANAKIN : I won't forget.
ANAKIN hugs KITSTER" http://www.blueharvest.net...
MANY slaves, among which Anakin's best friend, celebrated Anakin as a hero. Slavery was effectively, as my opponent conceded, never gone. So, it is only logical that Kitster and the "many" others carried the legend of the HERO through those twenty years.
It's not whether Anakin ever completed a race. That makes his win even more of an underdog triumph, even more legendary. No, this is about no HUMAN ever winning or completing a pod race before, and no SLAVE ever winning or completing a race.
Anakin set three records, totally out of the blue, and if we go by the movies, he has become a hero.
I "accidentally" remember Eruzione, because ten years ago, I wrote a movie review for "Miracle" with Kurt Russell. I am, however, not an American. But here in my country in Europe, everyone knows at least ONE name of the German national soccer team that won in the famed "Miracle of Bern" ( http://en.wikipedia.org... ). Fritz Walter and Max Morlock spring to mind. And I don't even LIKE soccer. That's 60 years in the past.
Again, Tatooine has this ONE major sports event. No way would Anakin be forgotten by any human standard. It would be akin to forgetting one-hit wonders like the SexPistols ( http://www.pastemagazine.com... ).
"Especially considering what all happens immediately after this."
Which affects Tatooine how? My opponent arbitrarily shifts Tatooine into the happenings of the "galaxy far, far away" and out of them, just to please his needs. Creating yet another plot hole along the way: the suspiciously important unimportant planet.
Anakin was not "Someone" who disappeared. He was a celebrity who disappeared. That would only spawn rumors, fueling the legend.
Kenobi - Shmenobi:
As I stated before: this is not our discussion.
Luke and Vader:
If Owen and Beru KNOW of Anakin becoming Vader, then Kenobi has lied to Luke far more than he ever admitted. The dialogue I posted last round about Luke's father having ideals and following Kenobi on a sort of crusade - it would all have been a lie.
So, while Kenobi and Yoda both knew that Luke was the "final hope" (I know: there is another...), the one who swore to protect him tells him lies and sends him into a direct conflict with Vader, and the other one refuses to teach him, until the ghost of Kenobi reminds him of his own prophecies and his alleged training with Yoda - which he never had!
The deeper you dig, the more convenient elements you have to add in order to make this work. As is typical for plot holes.
Beru must be totally out of her mind to FONDLY remember Luke's father. She hardly knew Anakin, but Vader must be feared throughout the galaxy.
The reason to lie to Luke about his father was stated by Kenobi in the above quote: to keep Luke from becoming like his father and joining a civil war.
Because if they wanted to avoid Luke finding out about Vader, they would most certainly claim to be Luke's parents, like Bail Organa and his wife did. There is literally NO reason not to adopt Luke if they know about Vader. Why take the risk?
So, Kenobi waits for a chance encounter with Luke in the desert to "soften a blow" and give Luke reason to go against Vader - without training, and knowing full well that Luke is more than a decade too old to begin training. No, not logical. And why go against Vader now? Kenobi doesn't even know if Vader is involved with the Death Star, he doesn't even understand what the Empire is building. And now, with Vader involved, Kenobi takes Luke to Organa and Leia, completely blowing their entire cover?
Where's the logic there? Suddenly he changes the plan again, and goes after Vader as an old man, endangering Leia and Luke. He might just as well leave a trail of bread crumbs.
Kenobi did not force Owen to make Luke his nephew rather than his son. That's just silly to assume, as Owen hates Kenobi.
Return to Tatooine:
Vader reacts very emotionally when Luke calls him Anakin Skywalker in "Return of the Jedi". He would eliminate every one left to remind him of this part of his life. More than enough reason.
Watto is the reason Shmi is dead. Reason enough to kill him.
"A New Hope" makes totally clear that Tarkin was the Emperor's right hand man, and Vader Tarkin's right hand man. Vader is finished with his Jedi hunt by "A New Hope", for he does not raise an alarm when he senses Kenobi. And the Emperor would understand that Vader's hatred needs to be fueled and encouraged at times. Sith seek revenge. Vader has still a few scores to settle.
In the first year after "Revenge of the Sith", things changed. Vader was proved alive, and yet nobody reviewed the decision to hide Luke any better.
But twenty years later, it's absolutely okay to suddenly blow any cover and seek open confrontation with Vader.
So, poor decisions can be changed whenever the plot calls for it, but not when it would be logical.
Typical plot hole.
My opponent has put forth quite a few ideas. Most of which I think the movies easily explain. Others are just plainly not true. He has also made some quite outlandish claims about what I have said in this debate.
Tatooine the moving planet.
My opponent claims that I "arbitrarily shifts Tatooine into the happenings of the "galaxy far, far away" and out of them, just to please his needs. Creating yet another plot hole along the way: the suspiciously important unimportant planet."
Quite an outlandish claim. Tatooine is a remote planet in the Out Rim. In the past it had been dropped by the Republic, only to be picked up on a technicality. Their presence so non existent that the anti slavery laws are ignored. After the Empire takes over all of this continues. It is obvious that it is part of the Empire in name only.
It holds no strategic value. There is no reason for there to be a strong Empire presence. A good place to hide from the Emperor.
My opponent said the above quote in response to my saying, "Especially considering what all happens immediately after this." Which was in reference to the two civil wars that occurred in the thirty plus years since Anakin had left Tatooine. I am not sure why anyone would not think that this would have an effect on the planet. While they may only be part of the Republic/Empire. My opponent mentioned earlier that Luke said that he remembered a time before the Empire. There would still be taxes to pay for the war that has raged on again and off again for more that twenty years. The Empire was obviously disliked. While all of this would have been lessened due to their location, but it is certainly a lot to happen in the time frame.
"Resting the fate of the universe on one hast decision that can not be revoked because - well, just because, apparently - seems odd for the wise Jedi. It just creates a new plot hole, and does nothing to mend the existing one."
I am not quite sure what my opponent is claiming here.
I simply put forth the idea that characters are fallible. We see these characters make mistakes through out the course of the movies. I also plainly stated that I felt that their actions make sense, even if some think that they made an error with Luke. I did however, say that time was crucial.
Perhaps my opponent would have preferred Yoda sent out messages to several members of the fledgling Rebellions. Let them come and have a Ent like conference. Only to have Storm Troopers, along with a quite irritated Darth Vader and possibly even Emperor, kick in the door and kill them all.
This is a tumultuous time. The rebellion would be very small. There would likely be difficulties in communication. Resources would be limited. Options would have been limited.
"SOMEHOW magically learns that Darth Vader is alive."
Not magically at all. I am sure a Jedi has ways of getting information. It would be quite easy to go down to a tavern under one of his many aliases and find all the information that he needed. As far as hunting Vader down while he was still young, that was not what he was to do. He was to watch over Luke and train with Jinn until the time was right. Vader became quite powerful after his fall to the dark side. It is possible that Kenobi could not have beaten him. Aside from that, we rarely see Vader when he is not accompanied by storm troopers.
As far as Kenobi dying sooner and becoming one with the force....first we have no indication from the movie how long this takes. It is possible that it takes many years. Second, it would not have done Kenobi any good to go get himself killed, become ad force ghost and then haunt some unsuspecting kid who just wants to buy some power converters at Tosca Station.
Aside from Anakin, Local Hero thee rest of my opponent's response is pretty mus a series of questions that can easily be answered if the movies are watched.
But before I answer them, I want restate something that is basic but should be made clear. As far as 99.9999999999999999% of the galaxy is concerned Anakin Skywalker had no children. Most people would have had no clue Padme was pregnant with Anakin's children. Anyone close to her would have thought that she lost the children. There is no one looking for Luke. My opponent is trying to make it out as if Luke is on the run from the Empire. He isn't.
"WHY DID HE REFUSE TO TEACH LUKE in "The Empire Strikes Back", claiming Luke to be "too old"? "
Yoda tested Luke. He acting a certain way to test Luke and see how he reacted. It is possible he did this to gauge Luke's weaknesses. Or he was doing it to test Luke and he was possibly considering excluding. Better to not train him, if he thinks he would succumb to the dark side. Yoda's initial claim was a complaint about Luke's patience. He twice reminded luke to be patient and he would take him to Yoda. It is clear that as the conversation with force ghost Kenobi that Yoda is deciding that he will train him or this is still possibly part of the test. Yoda does not agree until Luke nearly insists and states that he is not afraid.
"Has Kenobi waited too long to begin training? Why? Owen Lars? Kenobi is a powerful Jedi. Surely he is not afraid of Owen."
While Kenobi is certainly not afraid of Owen, that still doesn't mean he would resort to force or use of the Force. This would go with trying to convince Luke to leave. That seems quite a slippery slope. To go hacking Uncle Owne to death so you can train Luke to bring peace to the galaxy (which he actually didn't, but that is something of another discussion). I will discuss another theory in a bit.
But one other thing is that the fact that Threepio and R2 show up with Luke Skywalker....might just be a reason to talk to Luke even if Kenobi was merelye respecting his Uncle's wishes. That is the Force speaking.
"Those three made a mistake, you say. "
No I said it is possible they made a mistake. Again. I think under the circumstances they found very nice homes for the twins.
"Owen's decision not to rename Luke - which is the ACTUAL plot hole, ...The plot hole remains unaddressed so far."
Actually the plot hole being discussed is the decision to keep the name and the decision to hide him on Tatooine. The two are linked.
There is no reason to think that the name would bring suspicion. My opponent tries to claim that Anakin would be some kind of famed hero. To the point that his last name would bring everyone looking suspiciously at Luke. Again for what? No one has any clue that Padme's children had survived.
While I comend my opponent for knowing Eruzione. I have seen both the movie and the game and had to search for the name. And on that same note, while he might know at least one name from the famed soccer team, here in America I doubt anyone would know what game he is talking about.
My opponent keeps saying that pod racing is the only sport on the planent. We don't know that. We don't know that it is even the biggest. We simply know that it is the sport in which Anakin Skywalker participates.
But just how famous would he be? While his friends may call him a hero, that doesn't mean that he is a hero to all slaves. He has only won one race. He has only finished one race. And while my opponent would have us believe that Anakin is the lone slave that forced to race....likely not true.
Iit should be pointed out that never have I suggested that no one remembered Anakin Skywalker. Merely that it would not nearly be as popular as my opponenet suggest. Where everyone remembers that day he won and has little statues in there homes to "The Skywalker."
He was quickly forgotten as people went on living their lives.
"then Kenobi has lied to Luke far more than he ever admitted. "
Kenobi obviously was not truthful with Luke. He told Luke what he neede to know. Luke did not need know all about his father at that time. Kenobi informed Owen of what happened to Anakin. Otherwise they would have no reason to hide anything from him. Owen did not know Anakin. He met him for a brief period. Unless we go with the idea that he like everyone always worships the ground that Anakin walked upon. In that case, it is easy to see why they kept the name.
Kenobi wanted Luke to keep his father's name so that he could possibly redeem it. He felt no reason to think that that name would cause any commontion. Why would it? Again no one knows that Anakin Skywalker had a child. They could have easily come up with a story about Luke's past. And if Luke did bump into someone that recognized the name, it could easily be explained away.
Kenobi convinced them of it early. Told them that it was a condition of adopting him. No one knows that Skywalker has children.
"Because if they wanted to avoid Luke finding out about Vader, they would most certainly claim to be Luke's parents,"
Vader no longer goes by the name Skywalker.
"And why go against Vader now?"
Kenobi wasn't going against Vader. He was traveling to Alderaan.
"Suddenly he changes the plan again, and goes after Vader as an old man"
Kenobi goes to deactivate the the tractor beam. That had to be done. Vader actually intercepts him. Now he may well have known that he would have to face him, but it had to be done to deativate the tractor beam.
"Vader reacts very emotionally when Luke calls him Anakin Skywalker in "Return of the Jedi".
Vader reacts because the name does mean something to him. He is conflicted. This is shown in the film. Also, Owen Lars is of no relation to Vader. Vader hates Tatooine. He has much better things to do....like reading Palpatine's new book, "How To Grow Amputated Limbs Through The Dark Side."
"Watto is the reason Shmi is dead."
The sand people are the reason Shmi is dead. Anakin killed them. Watto was no where near when whe died.
Tatooine holds no strategic interest for the Empire. Perfect place to hide.
No one would have known to associate Luke Skywalker with Anakin Skywalker the true name of Darth Vader. As far as the galaxy knows, including the Emperor, Anakin Skywalker had no children.
Well, this is it. My final round on this site. I thank my opponent for his effort in spite of his dire circumstances right now, fighting tornados. I wish him all the best.
My opponent is wrong on all counts.
My opponent bends the way information flows to that planet to his will. At one time, the planet is totally remote and removed from any outward influence, then suddenly the Hutts are important as relation to the Empire. This changes arbitraily just as he needs it to.
Just as suddenly the civil wars made any difference on this remote planet without strategic value and without notable presence of the Empire or the Republic. My opponent keeps turning theimportance and connectedness of Tatooine around just as he goes along.
If the planet is remote, than the civil wars have passed it without a lot of commotion. Yet my opponent claims tha suddenly, the civil wars had people distracted from local hero Anakin.
Correct is this: Anakin was a local hero. The civil war came, but nobody really was affected, especially since Tatooine was never really part of EITHER the Republic OR the Empire. Anakin was thus not likely forgotten, while slavery endured. The slave who won the great race would have become more and more of a legend, as these things usually go, with Kitster living to tell the tale.
My opponent now introduces "taxes" as a concept. Slaves don't pay taxes.
The Empire was most certainly not disliked by the slaves, because if the Empire arrived, there was a chance slavery would finally be abolished.
Yes, characters in Star Wars are fallible. But mistakes can be corrected. Time may have been crucial in the first moments, and it was wise to meve Luke. But still my opponent does not explain why Owen Lars made the same mistake. He was not under pressure, and was intent to never let his nephew know his origins. Yet he did nothing much to aid this cause, by letting Luke keep his infamous family name.
Luke was bound to some day find out the truth - and he did. And Owen did nothing to prevent it effectively. Logic would have it he adopted Luke and called him Luke Lars. Then Lunke would never have known, Kenobi would not have had any way of ever approaching the boy. That would have been what Owen wanted, considering his fears that Luke would follow his father's footsteps, as he confided to his beloved wife when they were both alone. We must assume this to be the truth, for why would he lie to his wife who was in on the whole conspiracy. Why tell Luke that he had another father by the name of Skywalker?
Again, the definition we agreed upon was that something is a plot hole if it could have been addressed but wasn't. And that is the case here. Calling Luke "Skywalker" harmed Owen's agenda, and was never addressed or resolved. It is a plot hole not explicable withing the film.
My opponent does not stop his conjuring up new ideas DEFINITELY NOT IN THE FILM. Where does Kenobi ever have Aliases in "A New Hope" on Tatooine? He's just cazy old hermit Ben in the desert.
No way he could have heard about Vader on this remote, unimportant planet. And if he had, I say he would have gone to finish his mission given to him by Yode well before "Bring the child to Tatooine".
I refer to the end of "Revenge of the Sith": Obi-Wan VOLUNTEERS to watch over Luke, Yoda only orders him to take the child to his family.
But Kenobi was under strict orders to kill Anakin. Had he actually heard of Vader being alive, he would have sought contact with the Rebel alliance or the remeining Jedi. Instead, he allowed Vader to hunt them all? Not logical.
How would Stormtroopers have Kenobi worried while he was still young? In "A New Hope" all stormtroopers are wise enough to not interfere in the battle between Vader and Kenobi. He's a Jedi who blasted dozens of battledroids while still in his prime.
The only thing that makes sense is this: The new trilogy just doesn't fit with the original one.
Yoda tested Luke:
Nonsense. It was Kenobi's spirit who finally convinced Yoda to take Luke under his wing. Had Yoda known of Luke, he would have trained him without any need of Kenobi's interference. Yoda was done testing Luke after the "crazy hermit" routine.
Kenobi training Luke:
The fact remains that Kenobi just sat there doing nothing, while Luke was the galaxy's "only hope". That's awfully inactive for someone intent to save the galaxy and stop Vader and the Emperor.
Again, it was a hasty decision nobody laer cared to correct for NO REASON EVER ADDRESSED in the films, which makes it a plot hole.
"There is no reason to think that the name would bring suspicion."
Aside from Anakin being a local hero and my opponent insisting tha Owen knows who Darth Vader is - No, Owen Lars, the farmer who wants to be left alone, would never take the risk. He's a simple man, after all. He doesn't care about Emperors and the Empire. He's ony concerned about the well-being of Luke. And allows him to bear the name of a local sports hero while telling him his father was a pilot on a spice freighter. It makes no sense at all.
"My opponent keeps saying that pod racing is the only sport on the planent. We don't know that."
My opponent agreed up front to stick to what is in the movies. This is the one event everybody is talking about in "Phantom Menace" on Tatooine.
No oher sport is ever mentioned. Luke is so bored that he goes out hunting giant rats in his little glider. There is no sport on this planet.
"that doesn't mean that he is a hero to all slaves"
I showed above that Kitster begs to differ: "There are so many of us who want you to stay, Annie... You're a hero."
"Us" obviously being the slaves, because Kitster as a slave boy doesn't know a lot of other people.
Again: what is in the movies is our only proof. This is right there.
The slave community would keep the name revered for all eternity. But slavery seems to have mostly gone by "A New Hope", and thus the name would spread.
And again, we're talking about the ONLY HUMAN to ever win a sport that is practiced on several worlds (Qui-Gon mentioning it exists on Malastare, too).
He would not have been forgotten.
My opponent insists that Owen knows of Anakin being Vader. All the more reason to make the child a Lars and remove him from that family's curse.
As was done with Leia.
It does not matter what Kenobi wanted for Luke's name. Owen HATES Kenobi and wishes him dead in "A New Hope". He is Luke's legal guardian, he decides the name. My opponent wishes to distract from this, but it remains a fact: Owen Lars has virtually NO reason not to rename Luke, and good reason to do so.
He DOES NOT, and THAT is the plot hole this whole debate narrows down to.
Kenobi has no say in this.
"Told them that it was a condition of adopting him"
That is NOT in the film. Kenobi was under orders to hand the child over. It was ot his place to put any conditions on this. The boy was to be given to HIS loving family.
If Kenobi would go against that direct order, my opponent can no longer claim he would not have gone after Vader because he had orders.
"Vader no longer goes by the name Skywalker."
And yet it is a fact that Luke eventually found out. So, there is no claiming that this would have been unrealistic. It ahppened, after all. In the movies.
"Kenobi wasn't going against Vader."
Kenobi knew full well he was going against Vader the moment he saw Leia's holographig message. Why else would he take Luke and train him in the ways of the Force? Why would he tell Luke all these lies? I was thus not referring to the events on the Death Star. I was referring to Kenobi leaving Tatooine to interfere with the civil war once more. He must have known this would eventually pit him against Vader.
My opponent states himself: "He was trying to do two things there: 1. To give Luke an immediate reason to want to destroy Vader."
So, was he going against Vader or NOT?
My opponent constantly contradicts himself, just like the new trilogy contradicts the original one on this whole affair.
"Palpatine's new book, "How To Grow Amputated Limbs Through The Dark Side.""
Funny, but not in the film. It is obvious my opponent is just reaching now, trying to distract from the matter at hand with silly jokes.
Owen is a step brother to Vader. A reminder of his past. All those need to be eliminated because obviously, the name "Anakin Skywalker" means soething to Vader, and all who knew him must therefor die, because the name alone reminds him of the heinous deeds he's committed, including first and foremost the alleged killing of his wife. Who was known to Owen. Vader would not let anyone live who knew he was married to Padme, because that would be a connection to a past he desperately wants to be gone.
Watto was the one to enslave Shmi and wouldn't let her go with Anakin. Had Watto freed her, she would have been safe. He didn't let her go, on a technicality. Vader has more than enough reason to kill the guy.
So, what it all comes down to is this, the way my opponent would have it:
Luke was brought to Tatooine and given to Owen, who was told that Anakin had become evil and was on a killing spree, having also basically killed Padme through his change of heart, before he was stopped.
My opponent wants the information that Vader survived accessible on Tatooine, which must have been a few months after the events of "Revenge of the Sith", as Vader continued to hunt the Jedi to extermination.
And yet for some reason, farmer Owen Lars, upon learning that Anakin, who has killed all the Jedi children, decides not to rename infant Luke?
Even if we leave Anakin's fame on Tatooine out of the picture, this makes no sense, and it is never explained in the movies.
Making the name "Luke Skywalker" a huge plot hole.
Thanks all for reading, this is my final bow.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct was equal from both sides. As was S&G. Sourcing was equal enough. In this case, we have a decision which, on its face, makes little sense. Con is arguing that it DOES make sense, and, as Con also got the first real round of argumentation, the presumptive BoP falls on him. It can be argued that Con indicated a shared BoP, but nonetheless, either it makes sense, or it doesn't, and this comes down to Con's burden to give explanations which make sense. And in the end, he failed to do so. Pro's attacks of each of Con's justifications stand and, as Pro says: "The deeper you dig, the more convenient elements you have to add in order to make this work." The point is that the hole is not addressed in the film. It could have been, perhaps, but that it wasn't makes it defintionally a plot hole. As always, happy to clarify this RFD.
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