The Instigator
JimShady
Pro (for)
The Contender
Fiver
Con (against)

Star Wars VII is the worst film out of the current main 7 movies.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/18/2017 Category: Movies
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 783 times Debate No: 102049
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

JimShady

Pro

Star Wars, Episode VII: The Force Awakens was the first Star Wars movie that I'd seen in theaters, and so when I first saw it, of course I thought it was amazing. Then I got the movie on DVD and watched it a few more times, and the more I saw it, the more I disliked the film.

Now I'm willing to say that Star Wars 7 is the worst movie out of I-VII, not counting Rogue One or The Clone Wars. You might be saying, what, the Prequel films are much more terrible, but hey, the Prequels are actually my favorites because I grew up with them. But this is not just a subjective debate on which I like more, this is on which movie is better/worse. I will be arguing that Star Wars 7 is the worst for several reasons.

These reasons/categories are what Star Wars movies are usually graded on:
1. Story
2. Characters
3. Effects
4. Locations
5. Music
6. Battles (namely the lightsaber fight(s))

Feel free to add more categories to judge the movie on. The con can choose a movie they think is worse than 7 and state why, then refute my points. The first round is for acceptance, and Round 2 is for stating why you think YOU'RE Star Wars movie is the worst. Rounds 3 and 4 are for rebuttals.

(*note* I like all Star Wars movies and still enjoy watching Star Wars 7. I just think it is the worst of the Star Wars movies, it is not necessarily bad.)

*draws DC-15A laser blaster*
Fiver

Con

Challenge accepted, with two additional criteria suggested for judging the films:

6. Battles (including space dogfights as a Star Wars staple)
7. Themes (i.e., use of symbolism, central concepts of the film, etc.)

(I similarly enjoy most Star Wars films, and don't particularly think The Force Awakens was the best, but I enjoy seeing what people do or don't like about a film.)
Debate Round No. 1
JimShady

Pro

*loads blaster gun and aims*

Alright, your additional categories look good.

1. Story:
What basically happens is a young Jedi prodigy on a desert planet gets swept up into a fight against an evil Galactic order. The prodigy gets off the planet via Millennium Falcon. Soon, the prodigy, along with her friends find out that a giant, planet-sized weapon being used by the Galactic order is threatening worlds, so they resolve to defeat it. The prodigy and her friends go on the planet-sized base and attack, but lose one of the older of the group to an evil dark lord with a red lightsaber. Eventually though, the rebels find a weakness in the base and destroy it with a bunch of x-Wings, and the Dark Lord is defeated in battle.

I'm pretty sure most people realize the striking similarity this has with Episode 4. Episode 7 is basically a copy of the old film, mainly to present it to the new Star Wars generation. Of course there are differences, such as lightsaber fight being at the end, and the bar scene (new Cantina scene) with Maz Kanata is in the middle. However, it can't be denied that the two films have the same backbone, but just a different skin over it. Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I think they pulled this off pretty nicely in terms of switching it up but keeping it the same. However, many see it as a little lazy and too over cautious. The writers didn't want a repeat of the Prequels, so they just played it safe and made Episode 4.2 . Even if the Prequel stories are flawed, at least they are unique. Personally I don't mind that Star Wars VII copied IV, the story was entertaining (like I said, I like this movie). But I can see why a lot of people who wanted a new Star Wars movie are disappointed.

2. Characters:
First off, I like most of the main characters, especially Finn, Han Solo, Chewie, Snoke, Kylo-Ren (nice Vader replacement in my opinion) BB-8, Hux. The ones that seem a little bland to me are Maz Kanata (just a boring character, for some reason she has Anakin's lightsaber and fails to explain why. I'd prefer another diner owner any day- She's no match for the likable character of Dexter Jettster from E. 2), Poe Damarran (way to cocky, much like Han Solo, although Han is a more likable character. I also don't like how he seems to be gifted with the force, I remember in E. 4, Vader said "The force is strong with this one" to Luke, even though the skills of Poe far exceed Luke. Poe to me is just a boring, really good fighter, but boring with almost know story to make me like him). Captain Phasma does nothing but get captured, a really boring character except for the beginning.

I absolutely loathe Rey. If you watched YouTube videos, you will know why. She is basically perfect and has no flaws. She is very skilled in pretty much anything she does, whether is being flying a ship (better than Han), Force (which she knew nothing about at the beginning), and lightsaber fighting. She's stronger than most males in the movie, which is unrealistic. Although Kylo Ren has been training his whole life in the force and lightsaber combat, he gets his @ss handed to him by Rey, who can immediately be good at anything she tries. You may say she is the strongest in the Force ever, but that makes her a very uninteresting character, compared to OG Luke. Also, in Episode 8 she's going to be training with Luke, but why? She's already better than he could ever be. Her ONE flaw is that she is unflawed. A very poor replacement for Luke, and the most annoying character in the movie, in the series, even worse than C-3PO and Jar Jar.

4. Effects:
Star Wars 7 is a good looking movie, I love the effects, sounds, and the CGI characters look pretty good and believable. I got no problem here, it did well in this category. However good effects doesn't necessarily make a better movie, the first 3 had shjt effects compared to Episode 7, and yet the first 3 are better. But good job on effects, 7.

5. Locations:
A little uncreative, as with the story plot. Jakuu is Tatooine 2.0, and the place where Rey sells her junk is another Mos Eisely/Espa. Takodana (Maz Kanata's planet) seems to be just a forest world with grass here and there. I like her bar, and the battle scene with all the rubble looks great, but nothing to eye-popping. Starkiller Base is your second Hoth, which I am actually welcome too a little. I love Hoth, if there' another one in 8 I'd be happy. But overall, kinda basic worlds, kinda uncreative. Prequels and Original Trilogy, but especially Prequels had much more variety. However the first scene on Jakuu was freakin awesome.

6. Music:
The best word I have for it is forgettable, except maybe Rey's song and Kylo Ren's song (my favorite from the film). I love John Williams, but, eh, it could be better. The Original Trilogy brought us the Imperial March, the main theme, Yoda's theme, and these are just a select few from a great bundle of memorables. The Prequels brought us Duel of Fates, that one Geinosis song, the Anakin/Padme love song, and Battle of the Heroes, again just a few from a bundle of greats. I've watched VII plenty, and yet the only ones that stick out are Rey's and Kylo Ren's, and they are not even NEAR the others.

7.Battles:
The opening battle was very satisfactory, I like the nighttime Jakuu and the ruthlessness of Phasma was nice. Also, Kylo Ren had a very nice murderous intro and also froze Poe's blaster bolt which was amazing. Great opening battle, just like Episode 4. Finn and Rey's escape from Jakuu was cool, but the Millennium Falcon part was way better than the ground part, even if these two taking down TIEs is unbelievable. The battle of Takodana was also cool, especially the ground part, I hated the X-wing's, namely Poe. The melee fight between the traitor and the stormtrooper was nice even if unneeded. As for the destruction of Starkiller Base..... I've seen it before. Twice. Enough Death Stars already. All in all, I know I missed a few battles, Star Wars VII does them really well, just like any other Star Wars movie. All except one battle, the MOST IMPORTANT.... I'll do that last.

8.Themes:
I don't really get into the themes of films that much, personally I think the point of Star Wars is not the theme but just the amazingness of the entire story, action, and everything. But yeah, it's your basic story of the good oppressed by the evil, and they fight back although weak and have "A New Hope". Like I said, I don't care much for this, I'm more of a kid when it comes to Star Wars than an adult, I'm here for the fights and amazingness. But, we get nothing new here. I guess the film could really be called "An Old Hope". The themes are identical to Episode 4, and because it brings nothing new to the table, it can easily be swept aside. Still, I think it's OK to retell the original to the newer generation. But to the older generation, it's kind of disappointing.

9.Lightsaber Battle:
I don't know if I hate Rey or this duel more in this movie. But being that Rey is the REASON why I hate it, I guess I hate Rey more. Here's why this lightsaber battle ranks last, behind EVERY fight in the saga, even Episode II. The reason is because it cannot happen. Like I said before, Kylo Ren is skilled in the dark side of the force and with his lightsaber, Snoke has trained him well for this moment. Finn, on the other hand, is just a regular stormtrooper who MAY have seen some melee training as we see he fought the other guy with his saber. No force abilities. Rey, although she has combat skills with her staff, has never used a lightsaber. Her force skills seem to be more powerful than Anakin's (bull shjt), but they are not in tune. Looking at these stats, it should be a definite Kylo Ren win.

And instead, we get this.... Finn puts up a good fight. I don't know if that's really possible, imagine a DIFFERENT stormtrooper, say the one earlier with his staff, took on Kylo Ren. Ren could easily have killed him. The only reason this doesn't happen to Finn is because he's a main character. Eventually though, he is bested, although it should've happened sonner, and his back is slashed. Rey then takes up the fight. Although she has not been trained, she has the same amount of strength as Kylo, and even defeats him in a Force tug-of-war between Anakin/Luke's lightsaber (I refuse to call it Rey's, maybe Finn). I call absolute bull shjt on her beating Kylo in the force. And in the end, she gets the upper hand in the lightsaber fight. Now, this is a person who has been training his life for this, and he gets beaten by an absolute noob. Trash. Although the rebellion is weak, they can beat the empire/first order because they are at least trained in fighting. Rey has no excuse for winning this. As far as the location of the fight, the Dark Forest is nice, and the fight is fast, but kind of bland, with no real amazingness like we saw in the fight before this, Mustafar. However, even if the fighting is good and the location is good, the fight itself and the outcome is terrible, all other lightsaber fights are believeable, cause when Luke WASN'T trained, he got beaten. Of course though, perfect Rey wins again.

Conclusion:
All in all, a good film, even a good Star Wars film, but behind all the others made.

*shoots DC-15A*
Fiver

Con

*dodges the blaster shot with a slight, unnaturally editted jerk of the head*

1.Story - My opponent"s main complaint with Ep. VII"s story seems mainly to be that it"s a repeat of Episode IV's - an accurate accusation. However, just because a story is familiar doesn"t make it weak (just as Ep. IV"s story was a repeat of other "Hero"s Journey" tales). Ep. VII"s version of the Hero"s Journey is stronger than Ep. IV"s (for example, Rey"s rejection of the call has more impact.). Even aside from this point, Ep. VII"s story simply outplays the meandering, "unique" stories of Ep. II (Man searches for assassin, finds army), Ep. III (Pointless villain is defeated, archvillain takes over government), and even Ep. VI (pointless villain is defeated: final battle). In short, Ep. VII"s story is fairly strong when compared to the rest of the saga, and as my opponent admits, he doesn"t find much fault with it.

2.Characters " My opponent seems to concede that most of the main characters here are well-written, with the exception of Rey and Poe (whom I will address soon). I would suggest that given this concession, Ep. VII is already cleared from being the worst film of the Star Wars saga. Kylo Ren as the film"s villain handily succeeds better than Darth Maul (Ep. I), Count Dooku (Ep. II), General Grievous (Ep. III), or even the New Hope"s Darth Vader (Ep. IV). Finn"s role and growth as a character easily puts him as a rough equal to the best protagonists of the prequels (Qui-gon Jinn and Obi-Wan) while being more likeable than Anakin or Padme.

Defense of Rey as a Mary Sue: Rey is rightly suspected of being a Mary Sue: she is shown to be an expert pilot, a genius mechanic, holds her own in a lightsaber fight against Kylo-Ren. I considered Rey a Mary Sue character for a while, and sincerely hope her abilities are given more clear limitations in the future films. However, Rey"s abilities are not of place when compared to other prodigy protagonists in the saga. Rey"s skills as a mechanic are directly supported by her backstory as a scavenger and fixer, and are overshadowed by Anakin"s fixing abilities in Ep. I (remember, Anakin built pod-racers and droids from scratch). Her one stint as a pilot (in the tie fighter chase) is directly comparable to Luke"s surprising gunner ability in the very similar scene in Ep. IV, and certainly more believable than Anakin"s piloting abilities in Ep. I (again, recall that Anakin _accidentally_ launched his fighter, survived a dogfight, and destroyed a mothership, saving two armies" as an 8-year-old). In these abilities, it is clear that Rey is not as much a Mary Sue as Anakin in Ep. I, and is comparable to Luke in Episode IV.
The final overblown skill, supposedly, lies in Rey"s lightsaber fight with Kylo-Ren. However, on a review of this scene, Rey is not shown to have particularly strong dueling abilities. Kylo-Ren is very pointedly badly injured before the fight begins. In Kylo"s fight with Rey, he very clearly seems more interested in her natural force abilities, rather than her threat to him as a duelist, (a comparison to the duel in Ep. V would be a good one). And of course, Rey very clearly does not win this fight: it is interrupted before Kylo even brings his full skill to bear.
In summary, Ep. VII had a strong villain and average protagonists. Enjoyable side characters seem just as plentiful here as in any other Star Wars films. Altogether, I would suggest that Ep. VII"s cast of characters clearly exceeds Ep. I and Ep. IV, and rivals Ep. II and Ep. III.

3.Effects " My opponent says that Ep. VII is a good-looking film, without much criticism to be levelled at it here. I must admit myself to not seeing much difference between the Star Wars films in terms of technical ability in special effects. Aside from some glaringly out-of-place greenscreen usage in Ep. II, and some noticeably aged stop-motion in Ep. VI, all seven films are as technically proficient as I could expect of them.

4.Locations " My opponent criticizes Ep. VII"s use of Jakku (as essentially Tatooine 2.0), and Starkiller Base (as Hoth 2.0), and suggests that the prequels had a better variety of locations. Ep. VI is rightly criticized in its recycling of a desert planet environment (Jakku) as a simple replacement of Tatooine. However, even a Tatooine replacement is a slight step up from a reuse of Tatooine itself, placing Ep. VII as better than Ep. I and Ep. VI in this respect (the desert planet environment is used about an equal amount of time in all three films). I would defend Starkiller Base as a legitimately different feel than Hoth (a snowy forest, for me, is quite I different aesthetic than a barren snowy plainscape), but at the same time, I admit that the use of Hoth (and it"s contrast with Dagobah and Cloud City) is much better in Ep. V. Ep. II also has a much better mix of locations. However, I would suggest that Ep. VII is not notably worse than Ep. I or Ep. VI in its settings.

5.Music " My opponent suggests that Rey"s Theme and Kylo Ren"s Theme are inferior when compared to the music of the Prequels (Battle of the Heroes, Duel of the Fates, and Across the Stars (Love Theme)). However, this compares the music of a single film to the music of an entire trilogy: when compared to any one film, Ep. VII"s music is of comparable quality to most films in the Saga. I would rank Rey"s Theme as better developed and altogether a better piece than Duel of the Fates" presentation in Ep. I, or Battle of the Heroes in Ep. III. The amount of new music introduced (and it"s use) is also greater than in Ep. VI. In short, the music of Ep. VII rivals each of the prequels, and is better than the music of Ep. VI.

6.Battles (large scale) " My opponent seems to say that most of the battles in Ep. VII are well-done, but criticizes the destruction of Starkiller Base as repetitious. In this area, I actually must agree with my opponent and go even further to say that in terms of large-scale battles, Ep. VII may well be the worst of the saga. For most of these battles, the exciting sense of tactics and battle progression (e.g., the progression of the walkers at Hoth, the removal of the shield at the final death star battle), simply wasn"t present. In comparison to other films, The Force Awakens must stand on other categories.

7.Themes " In this department, I feel that Ep. VII doesn"t get enough popular credit, and it stands out among many other films in the saga. Ep. VII takes familiar themes of the series (ties to fatherhood, the dual nature of the force, redemption, personal growth) and takes them in a new direction. Kylo Ren"s stand off with Han Solo mirrors the father-son tension between Luke and Vader in Ep. V, only this time the rejection of the son is a fall from grace (the decision to kill his father). The dangerous and somewhat terrifying power of the Force is excellently shown in Rey"s terrifying vision, and in Luke"s apparent rejection of his past. Finally, both Rey and Finn show character change and growth throughout the film, in ways unseen in the prequels or Ep. IV.

8.Lightsaber Battles " Our final point of discussion is, fittingly, our most contentious. My opponent cites the lightsaber battle between Rey and Kylo-Ren as a particularly weak point of the film. I consider it one of the better lightsaber battles of the saga, beating out all three prequels, and possibly Ep. IV as well.

My opponent"s main criticism is that Kylo Ren should have easily dispatched of both opponents, and that Rey"s skills with the lightsaber were unwarranted. I will first defend against these accusations, and then offer some counterpoints.

The charge that Kylo Ren did not fully defeat Finn is unwarranted: Kylo easily defeats Finn, and deals him such a maiming blow that, for all he knows, Finn is dead (certainly Finn is out of the action, and apparently very close to death"s door, since he is still in a coma at the end of the film).

More importantly, the idea that the next duel shows Rey to be a superior fighter simply isn"t true. Kylo, although clearly badly wounded, several times shows that he is much more in control of the fight, and also that his goal is not to kill Rey, but rather to test her, to get her to surrender, and to offer to train her. Contrary to what my opponent says, Rey does not overpower Kylo in a tug-of-war for the lightsaber: she merely pulls it further than he intended in the same direction. It"s true that Rey shows some moments where her ferocity and innate force strength surprise Kylo Ren, but she certainly does not win the fight.

Finally, this lightsaber battle showcases a battle of characters, explicitly referencing the tension that has built up between Kylo and Rey up to this point. Rey has a personal reason, built up over. In short, this fight has emotional investment, representing the clear climax of the film. This alone makes this duel better than those found in Ep. I, Ep. II, and Ep. IV.

In most areas, The Force Awakens can easily show itself to avoid being the worst film in the saga. While not perfect, it clearly outshines Ep. I and Ep. II, while rivalling Ep. III, IV, and VI.

*tosses coin to bartender*
Sorry about the mess!
Debate Round No. 2
JimShady

Pro

"Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side of the force!" *electrical finger energy burst*

1.Story- Like I said, the story is not weak, it is pretty strong. However, it is also pretty lazy, they were playing it too safe and were scared that Star Wars fans would hate it if it was something new. That choice has had backlash. Like I said, I personally don't mind it, but I understand those who do. Also, no, Luke was also obstinate about leaving his home, just like Rey. I don't know how Rey's has more impact, in fact I don't really care about her parents to be honest. That's just me though. When you label E2 as "Man searches for assassin, finds army" and E3 as "Pointless villain is defeated, archvillain takes over" and E6 as "pointless villain is defeated: final battle", of course that makes it sound lame, and I think that's kind of fair. E2 is "a young Jedi is tested by the Dark Side profusely as a galactic war emerges", E3 is "The young Jedi is seduced by great evil and the galaxy falls under the Sith", E6 "A new Jedi defeats the galactic armies and turns his father 'to the good side'". These are more fair summaries, what if I just said Episode 7 is "A girl leaves the desert to look for an old man". Not to appealing. Like I said, E7 story is good, but a direct copy. A good copy, but still a copy.

2.Characters:
You say "My opponent seems to concede that most of the main characters here are well-written, with the exception of Rey and Poe (whom I will address soon). I would suggest that given this concession, Ep. VII is already cleared from being the worst film of the Star Wars saga." True I like the characters. However, the other movies also have great characters, and even better ones at that. Poe is a lame replacement for Han Solo, and Rey is a slap in the face to Luke. Darth Maul was under-developed, but his mystery gave his character a shrouded, "Menace" appearance, which was well received by many fans as the best character of the movie. Count Dooku and General Grievous are also well received, and these enemies did a lot more than Captain Phasma. And which are more beloved to Star Wars fans, may I ask? Finn being more likable is subjective, and of course this is a primarily subjective debate, but I liked Anakin in the Prequels (specially E3). Padme may not have been the best but was hot at least. My main complaint is Rey. Anakin has an excuse because he is the Chosen One. Not Rey. Like Rey, he also works with parts a lot, but UNLIKE her, he actually pilots things before, it is canon that Rey only used flight simulators of newer starships, not the Millennium Falcon, an old ship. Like I said, Luke is the chosen one, Rey is not. And yes, it was by accident that Anakin destroyed the ship. Also, in combat, a battle droid could've killed Anakin. Kylo barely shows any signs of weakness in the lightsaber fight. Watch the fight again. Rey slashes his face with her lightsaber. She won.

3. Effects:
Nothing really new here.

4. Locations:
Episode VI does reuse the desert planet, but at least they bring something new to the table with Endor. Episode 1 basically has no choice because that's where the Skywalkers and Lars are based as a family. The snow forest seemed just a mixture of Endor and Hoth, and unlike other lightsaber fights, the scene looked all the same without any parts that really stood out. It was just trees, trees, and more trees. The other lightsaber battles actually have differentiating places.

5. Music: I'm not a music professor, so I can't bring up technical issues on how Duel of fates is better than Rey's Theme. I'm simply going off of what I and the great majority of Star Wars fans opinion. Battle of the Heroes is the same. The amount of new music does necessarily mean it is better just cause it has more. I prefer quality over quantity.

6. Battles:
Nothing new to add, I understand what my opponent says. However when I view the Star Wars movies the thing I like the most is the action. I know I sound like a 3-year old, but yeah I kind of am in this aspect. But nothin' new.

7. Themes:
Con points out of the themes in Episode VII, and yeah they are all agreeable and are pretty appealing. However, most of them are acquired from Episode IV.

8. Lightsaber Battles:

Kylo could've beaten Finn a lot quicker if you ask me. I know it's a movie and it would not be that interesting if he died right away, but come on, that's pushing it to far. I think a better fight would be Luke vs. Kylo, that would be more like Episode 4 (which they are trying to do it seems).

Kylo does NOT show his superiority. Darth Vader vs. Luke in Episode V is what you are comparing this too. Darth Vader was going easy on Luke, fighting with one hand behind his back. Kylo was weak compared to Rey, it was not really a tug of war, but he thought he got the lightsaber but it flew right past him, I didn't mean left and right. Like I said, she slashes Kylo in the face with her saber at the end. While it may have more emotional impact than I and II, it is clearly unmatched and should simply not happen with the outcome. Also, Episode IV has a much larger emotional buildup if you take into the account the Prequel films.

Conclusion:
I really wish you would've picked one movie that you think is the worst out of the 7. My argument seems to be all over the place because I gotta defend all of the movies instead of just one.

For example, I bring up that the locations are bad. You say that Episode VI's, and yet you might not think Episode VI is THE worst film. Your just isolating a category from each movie in which Star Wars VII beats. In this way you can make it look the very best out of all 7 because you point out all the weakest moments of the others and ignore the best. This highly bolsters your argument and makes mine much harder to do. Smart, but that's why I specifically stated to choose a movie in Round 1. If you only use the movie YOU think is worse than Episode 7, you'll see that you can't draw upon categories from other movies that are more appealing to your argument. And on a 1v1, Episode 7 will fall to any one of the movies.

"You will pay the price for your lack of vision" *laughs like a crack smoker*
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by JimShady 8 months ago
JimShady
No prob I understand
Posted by Fiver 8 months ago
Fiver
Oops... got too involved over the weekend and missed the deadline for replying on this debate. My bad: I owe you one!
Posted by JimShady 9 months ago
JimShady
It was a bit under the expectations of Star Wars movie, but still satisfactory
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