The Instigator
tajshar2k
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
Midnight1131
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Star Wars is better than Star Trek

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
tajshar2k
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/13/2015 Category: Movies
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 833 times Debate No: 73413
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (2)

 

tajshar2k

Pro

I will be arguing that the Star Wars franchise has been more successful than the Star Trek Franchise



First round is acceptance.


Good Luck,
Midnight1131

Con

Accepted.
Debate Round No. 1
tajshar2k

Pro

Why I think Star Wars is better.


Cultural Impact

The Star Wars franchaise had such huge impact on Hollywood and the general public, that it changed the way directors directed movies. Before Star-Wars, Movies generally didn't have many special effects, and relied mainly on thick and engaging story lines to impress the crowd. When George Lucas revealed Star Wars to the world, everything about it was praised with positive acclaim. The acting, storyline, effects, music score, etc.... This was quite remarkable, considering that Sci-Fi movies weren't really popular back then. Even George Lucas thought his own movie would flop. Many lines from the movie are quoted and are used in daily talk. For example, when somebody wishes you good luck, they might says “May the Force be with you” The fact that kids from the 80’s still watch and adore Star Wars proves that really it made a huge impact in American culture. These impacts are much are greater than what the Star Trek series provided. This mainly is because Star Trek gained much of its popularity from its TV series, rather than its movies. Both have had affects on American culture, but the Star Wars Franchise was more prominent, due to the fact that it had a broader range of audience, and it won more academy awards.

Score (OST)

This is where the Star Wars really take the edge in my opinion. The score of the Star Wars Series is a huge reason why it was popular. John Williams did an excellent job perfecting his music, and it certainly paid off. The Imperial March and the Theme Music are arguably one of the most influential pieces of soundtrack Hollywood has seen. John Williams won the academy award for the best Score, which none of the Star Trek movies won.

Merchandise

Due to the cultural impact of Star Wars, many toy companies decided to make action figures to help increase their sales. It certainly worked as the total sales the franchise made from toy sales was 12 billion dollars. The Star Wars Franchise is currently ranked #1 in toy sales,(Star Trek isn’t even in the top 10) so Star Wars effectively captured the toddler and children market also. The Star Wars Video games made 2.9 billion in profit, (the Star Trek franchise didn't even manage to sell 20 million copies) So it safe to say this helped the Star Wars franchise become more successful due to its merchandise.


I'm saving some of my arguments for next round.


http://www.statisticbrain.com...
http://www.imdb.com...;

Midnight1131

Con

I thank my opponent for this debate.
I'll start off with rebuttals, but first, I'll define the word, successful.

Successful
accomplishing an aim or purpose

Now, onto rebuttals.

Cultural Impact
My opponent states that Star Wars had a huge impact on Hollywood and the general public. And he says evidence of this is that people still quote lines from the films, but people also quote lines from Star Trek, such as "Beam Me Up, Scotty." Also, Kirk and Spock are considered to be among such great artistic pairings, such as Frodo and Sam, or Sherlock Holmes and Watson. And he says that Star Wars was released before Sci-Fi was popular. I'd like to point out that Star Trek came out 11 years before Star Wars did. And it's special effects brought much acclaim, and it drew a much greater audience than expected. The show was eventually cancelled, which led to protests. My opponent says that Star Trek hasn't had as much cultural impact as Star Wars did, and says that's because Star Trek gained it's popularity from its TV series, rather than it's movies. Which is also false, because besides the Original Series, the next Star Trek material came out much later, and that was the Next Generation, during the same time the movies were in production, so there wasn't that much of a gap between the following gained from the TV shows and the films. But getting back to the cultural impact, I will now state some important technologies inspired by Star Trek.

Transparent Alumina - http://www.azom.com...
Also known as aluminum oxynitride, transparent alumina has many real world applications. I will list a few here.
  • Optoelectronics - Optoelectronic devices can source, detect, and control life.
  • Windows for laser communications

Cell Phones - http://www.inc.com...

The idea of wireless communication from Star Trek came long before the first devices like these were invented. Real life versions of these devices were popularized many years later in the 90's by a company called Nextel. In later versions of Star Trek, these communicators turned into the Starfleet Insignia on the chest of the uniform. And a company called Vocera Communications has created a real life version of these as well, called the B2000 communication badge.

Ion Drives - http://www.dailygalaxy.com...

Ion drives have been successfully tested by NASA, and they will be a great asset in future space exploration. But this technology was already there in Star Trek, 30 years before this happened.

Google Earth - http://www.edparsons.com...
Michael Jones, chief technologist of Google Earth, has cited the tricorder from Star Trek as one of the inspirations for Google Earth.

One cultural influence that I can't miss, is the 1st shuttle created in NASA's Space Shuttle Program. This space shuttle was called "Enterprise," and President Gerarld Ford had specifically requested this name, after many fans from across the nation sent letters to him, although he himself denies the letter's influence. But nevertheless, the name of this monumental step in space exploration was changed to "Enterprise," and the cast of the Original Series was invited to watch the launch live. Gene Roddenberry always wished to be in space, and after he died, NASA fullfilled this request, and sent his ashes into space. Star Trek also broke many racial barriers, there was a black woman who played a lieutenant, at a time when racial equality wasn't a popular notion, and many networks in the South refused to carry the show, but that didn't stop it's success. There was also a homosexual Japansese man, Sulu, and a Russian, Chekov, at a time when there were great tensions between Russia and the USA. But Gene Roddenberry chose specifically to include racial diversity in his show, because he believed, and wanted everyone to know, what an equal, and diverse society could look like.
To conclude, saying that Star Trek didn't have any cultural impact is foolish. It had an amazing cultural impact, praised for it's stories, that examine the human nature, and it's pioneering effects. But it also had a monumental impact on the field of technology.

Score - http://www.imdb.com...

http://www.imdb.com...

My opponents entire argument here rests on the fact that John Williams won the academy award for the best score. I'd like to point out, that the score for Star Trek: The Motion Picture, by Jerry Goldsmith, won the International Film Music Critics Award. Star Trek: Voyager, won many music awards in the Emmy's while it was on air. Goldsmith also won the BMI Film Music Award for his score for Star Trek: First Contact. So to conclude, my opponent provides no real argument in this category, his only argument is that John Williams won an award for the best score. And Jerry Goldsmith also won many awards for Star Trek.

Merchandise -

My opponent says that Star Wars is better because it sold more toys. Which I can believe. He aso says that the Star Wars Video games made 2.9 billion in profit. But the Star Trek franchise never focussed on games. I'd like to point out that the most popular Star Wars video games were made by LucasArts, and this is, obviously, owned by George Lucas. This matters because it means George Lucas himself wanted the video games to succeed, and, since he was the creator of Star Wars, he had much more creative license with the games, and he could introduce storylines and plots without worrying about angering the fanbase. This is different from Star Trek, because all of the Star Trek games were created by third party developers. Gene Roddenberry never cared for video games or action figures, because his aim with Star Trek was to write about and explore the human nature. Remember, the definition of successful is acheiving one's aims or goals, and selling video games was never an aim for the Star Trek.

Characters -

Star Trek had much better alien charcters. The most glaringly obvious one being Spock, who, even though was an alien, was portrayed in a way for the audience to relate to him. Anyone can relate to being an outsider, surrounded by those different from you. The same with Lt. Worf, on the Next Generation. In Star Wars, the alien characters are not understandable, as they speak in unknown languages, that sound like gibberish to the audience. Off the top of my head though, I can think of one Star Wars alien who could be understood, and that is, Jar Jar Binks.

Story -

The stories in Star Trek were richer than those of Star Wars. The stories in Star Trek explore the human nature, I cite episodes such as "The Drumhead." This episodes features an Admiral, who is so convinced that there is a Romulan spy among the Enterprise, that she begins a witchunt, accusing one crewmember of being the spy, simply because his great grandfather was a Romulan. This episode explores that even in civilized societies, corruption can creep up, and it takes just a few incidences before it takes over the system. Many episodes in Star Trek explore ideals and humans in general, just like this one.

"You know, there are some words I've known since I was a schoolboy: 'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably." Jean-Luc Picard

And with that, I toss the ball back to my opponent.



Debate Round No. 2
tajshar2k

Pro

I will know refute Con’s arguments
Cultural Impact
"But people also quote lines from Star Trek, such as "Beam Me Up, Scotty.”

Con hasn’t proven that this quote is popular. Before he asks me to prove if my quotes are popular I shall do it.

http://www.afi.com...

According to the American film institute, they have ranked “May the Force be with you” 8th. No where in this list are quotes taken from the
Star Trek movies. Con argues that people use “Beam Me Up Scotty”, but the quote I provided has more credibility than his, because I gave sources to back my argument up that it is famous.


Kirk and Spock are considered to be among such great artistic pairings, such as Frodo and Sam, or Sherlock Holmes and Watson.

This also applies to Star Wars.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

Huffington Post gives C-3PO and R2-D2 #2 spot for most iconic duos in movies

http://www.ranker.com...

Ranks Han Solo & Chewbacca #4

"I'd like to point out that Star Trek came out 11 years before Star Wars did. And it's special effects brought much acclaim, and it drew a much greater audience than expected. “

Con hasn’t provided sources to say Star Trek got critical acclaim.
Here are my sources for what I said about critical acclaim.
http://www.britannica.com...

So far, Con has not given sources to where he this



Con simply listed technologies that were inspired by Star Trek. Now let me list some inventions inspired by Star Wars.


http://miami.cbslocal.com...

The builder of this device says he named it Luke Arm, after what happened to Luke SkyWalker.



http://www.latinpost.com...

CNN used the holographic video effect from Star Wars to serve as a technological tool for CNN during the 2008 U.S elections.


"To conclude, saying that Star Trek didn't have any cultural impact is foolish. It had an amazing cultural impact, praised for it's stories, that examine the human nature, and it's pioneering effects. But it also had a monumental impact on the field of technology."
"Both have had affects on American culture, but the Star Wars Franchise was more prominent, due to the fact that it had a broader range of audience, and it won more academy awards.” I never said it didn’t, I said Star Wars's impact was moreprominent. In fact, you never refuted that Star Wars had a broader audience, and it won more academy awards.

So far, Con has only really listed technogical innovations that were inspired by Star Trek. I cannot take his earlier arguments into consideration, because he gave no sources.

SCORE

Jerry Goldsmith, won the International Film Music Critics Award. Star Trek: Voyager, won many music awards in the Emmy's while it was on air. Goldsmith also won the BMI Film Music Award for his score for Star Trek.
Let me list the total number of awards JohnWilliams won. The reason why I didn’t list them in the first round is because the Oscars are the more prominent one.

http://www.imdb.com...

Apart from his Academy Award, He won

Golden Globes- Best Original Score - Motion Picture
Star Wars(1977)


Anthony Asquith Award for Film Music- Empire Strikes Back(1981)
Anthony Asquith Award for Film Music- New Hope(1978)
Saturn Award- Star Wars (1978)
BMI Film Music Award- Star Wars Attack of the Clones (2003)
BMI Film Music Award- Star Wars the Phantom Menace
Grammy- Empire Strike Back (1981)
Grammy- New Hope (1978)


There are a ton more awards on the link I provided.

So I have now shown that John Williams was a moresuccessful composer than Jerry Goldsmith.


Merchandise



Con attempts to try avoid refuting my argument by saying,
"Remember, the definition of successful is acheiving one's aims or goals, and selling video games was never an aim for the Star Trek”
In my first round I stated,"Star Wars franchise has been more successful than the Star Trek Franchise” I proved the Star-Wars was more successful, by attracting the youngeraudience. Selling video games, ismerely a way for a business to expand and become a successful franchise. Whatever the intentions of the Star-Trek franchise were, it didn’t sell merchandise like the Star Wars franchise to make it’s franchise more successful.


Before I refute the other arguments, I would like Con to know these merely are his opinions, and for others it might be different


Characters


"Star Trek had much better alien charcters. The most glaringly obvious one being Spock, who, even though was an alien, was portrayed in a way for the audience to relate to him. Anyone can relate to being an outsider, surrounded by those different from you”

Being more related to isn’t an accurate way of measuring something is better. I’m sure many were able to relateto Darth Vader’s struggle and turmoil throughout the whole saga.

"the alien characters are not understandable, as they speak in unknown languages, that sound like gibberish to the audience. Off the top of my head though, I can think of one Star Wars alien who could be understood, and that is, Jar Jar Binks.”

Alien
belonging to a foreign country or nation.

Technically, every thing in Star Wars was alien, but I will go with the regular stereotype that an alien is something that looks non-human.

Con says alien characters in Star-Wara are not understandable, even though in every single movie, when an Alien spoke another language, there were subtitles.

I would like you to know the following were also aliens
Yoda
Darth Maul
General Grevious
Nute Gunray
Admiral Ackbar
Ventress
Ki-Adi-Mundi
All of them spoke English.

It is quite ridiculous that Con thinks Jar Jar is the only talking alien, when more important characters like Yoda existed.

Story

This is entirely his opinion, Star Wars is much more than the movies it's thousands of comic books, dozens of games and hundreds of books. The fans have taken the Star Wars universe to the very beginning of the Jedi, to the wars between the Empire and the new Sith overlords of the galaxy more than a century after the rebel victory over Endor. This also leads me to my other argument.



Sustainability


Due to Star-Wars effectivley capturing the younger market, it make sense more me to infer that Star-Wars will last longer in terms of popularity and influence compared to Star Trek. This is evident that kids from the 80's who are not most likely in their 40's or 50's still adore Star Wars. Star Trek audience is mainly in its older audience, whereas Star-Wars is making an impact on all markets, young and old. For these reasons Star Wars will likely last longer.




Midnight1131

Con

To start off this round. I'd like to say that my opponent never defined what he meant as "successful" when he proposed the debate. So logically, I would assume that meant "successful," in the literal definition. My opponent never properly defined what successful meant, so this definition is the one to be used.

Successful
accomplishing an aim or purpose

And since selling video games was never an intention of the Star Trek franchise, which is obvious, considering that all video games were developed by 3rd party developers, with no direction from the official Star Trek franchise. So my opponents point on video games is void, because while that may have been an aim for George Lucas, it was never one for Gene Roddenberry.

Characters
My opponent said that "being relatable too" is not really better, in terms of alien characters. He says fans were able to relate to Darth Vaders struggles and turmoil through the whole saga. No source has been provided for this. But I'd also like to point out that Anakin Skywalker was relatable too, because in Episode 1: the Phantom Menace, he was seen as a 9-year old kid. So Darth Vader is not a good example of an alien culture, because he was once human. Moving on, My opponent gives a list of alien in Star Wars that could be understood, but this isn't even close to equalling the amount of depth in aliens from Star Trek. Because the difference is, the aliens from Star Trek had distinct cultures, that were explored and developed deeply, and even real languages were later created for them, such as Klingon, which contains it's own grammar rules, and has been constructed as a full language.

Source: http://www.amazon.com...

Story
My opponent says that Star Wars has thousands of comic books, and games, and books. But he also says that THE FANS have taken the Star Wars universe to the very beginning of the Jedi. These stories are for some reason considered canon by the general Star Wars fanbase.

In fiction, canon is the material accepted as part of the story in an individual universe of that story. It is often contrasted with, or used as the basis for, works of fan fiction.

But in Star Trek, there are also many books, some written by actors from the franchise, such as William Shatner. These however are not considered as canon, because they are mainly fan fiction. Fan fiction is seperate from the official franchise.

Sustainability
My opponent has not provided any sources that Star Wars has captured the younger market to the extent that the continuation of the franchise is more likely than that of Star Trek. But the continuality of Star Trek isn't based on speculation anymore, due the success of the new Star Trek films, which ARE CANON. The 2009 Star Trek film earned 24 award wins, including one Oscar. Star Trek: Into Darkness, released in 2013, earned 9 awards, and another Oscar. So, unlike Star Wars, whose continuality is still to be proven, as the new films have not come out yet, Star Trek has already established that even after 50 years, the franchise is still going strong.

Score
My initial argument on this subject was a bit thin, because I only mentioned Jerry Goldsmith, while overall there were many composers who contributed to Star Trek, here, I will give the awards won by each of them, for Star Trek.

Jerry Goldsmith - http://www.imdb.com...
  • Outstanding Individual Achievement in Main Title Theme Music - Star Trek: Voyager
  • BMI Film Music Award - Star Trek: First Contact
  • IFMCA Award - Star Trek: The Motion Picture

Leonard Rosenman - http://www.imdb.com...

  • ASCAP Award - Star Trek: The Voyage Home

Michael Giacchino - http://www.imdb.com...

  • ASCAP Award - Star Trek: Into Darkness
  • ASCAP Award - Star Trek [2009]
  • BMI Film Music Award - Star Trek [2009]
  • IFMCA Award - Star Trek [2009]
  • Sierra Award - Star Trek [2009]

That makes for a total of 9 awards given to the Star Trek franchise, for music based accomplishments. Compare that to Star Wars' 9, which my opponent provided. My opponent started to compare John Williams to Jerry Goldsmith, but that's not a fair comparison between the 2 franchises, because Jerry Goldsmith was not the only composer who worked on Star Trek. After tallying the awards won, I think we can assume that this category is tied, because both sides won the same amount of awards.


Cultural Impact
My opponent has asked me to prove that quotes from Star Trek are popular. And I looked at his source, from which he found that "may the force be with you" was ranked 8th. But my opponents source is the American FILM institute, and most of Star Treks iconic phrases came out it's TV series.

PRnewswire has ranked the top 100 TV quotes and phrases. And in that list, I found these Star Trek quotes.

  • Live long and prosper [Spock, and Vulcan Salute]
  • Resistance is futile [The Borg]
  • Space, the final frontier... [Capt. Kirk, title sequence]

http://www.prnewswire.com...

For critical acclaim, I admit I should've provided sources, I looked at my opponents source, which was an encyclopedia, and I found these entries which I think prove the critical acclaim, and impact it left on the American entertainment industry.

My opponent gave links to 2 techonlogies inspired by Star Wars, whereas there were many more inspired by Star Trek. And I will say, in my opinion, that cell phones, and ion drives have much more practical uses than the technololgies my opponent sourced, not to mention there were many more technologies inspired by Star Trek, more than the ones my opponent showed from Star Wars. My opponent then says he cannot take my earlier argument into consideration. Does he really need a source before being able to refute the racial barriers broken by Star Trek? Well if he does, I will provide them.

Here is the source that my opponent requested on the racial barriers broken by having a black woman play a lieutenant in the 1960's

http://www.npr.org...

Here is the source for the Japanese - American, and homosexual actor, who played Hikaru Sulu, on the show.

http://elm.washcoll.edu...

Here is the Russian pilot, Pavel Chekov.

http://en.memory-alpha.org...

And the popular dates for the beginning and ending of the Cold War, between the US and it's allies, and the Soviet Union, and it's allies, are 1947 - 1991. Source - http://www.datesandevents.org...


Now, I would like my opponent to try and discredit these racial barriers broken by the Star Trek franchise. Because undoubtedly, they had a major impact on the future of entertainment in the nation.

After these rebutalls, I give the virtual microphone back to my opponent.


Debate Round No. 3
tajshar2k

Pro

Rebutalls

Merchandise

Con seems to think because Star Trek didn't focus on video games, my argument is void. Using Con's definition of sucessful, I can say Star Wars had aim's and goals in making their their franchise better, and video games were simply a part of it. Whatever the reason for Star Trek not making video games, Star Wars still made more profit out of it.

Characters

"But I'd also like to point out that Anakin Skywalker was relatable too, because in Episode 1: the Phantom Menace, he was seen as a 9-year old kid. So Darth Vader is not a good example of an alien culture"

The point of my rebutall was to address that being able to relate to isn't an accurate way of measuring something is better. Con is now saying Darth Vader isn't a good example of alien culture, even though I never said he was an alien.

"My opponent gives a list of alien in Star Wars that could be understood, but this isn't even close to equalling the amount of depth in aliens from Star Trek."

Again, this was a rebutall for you saying, "Jar Jar was the only understandable alien you could think of". You haven't provided any information of the "depth" aliens , and you only gave a link to a book that teaches you a language from Star Trek. There are languages in Star-Wars that fanbases have spoken

http://www.completewermosguide.com...

Here is the link for proof, there is a language adopted by fans. It teaches how to speak Huttese.

Story

I'm not sure what argument Con is trying to present here. Me talking about the fanbase was supposed to tell Con how deep and rich the Star Wars universe is. Con is now saying that fanbase things aren't canon in Star Trek. I don't see what this has to do with my argument.


Sustainibillity


I apologize for not presenting sources, but In my defense, I thought it was pretty evident when I said Star-Wars sold many video games, and toys. Here are the sources


http://oneofus.net...
http://www.cgjungpage.org...

"But the continuality of Star Trek isn't based on speculation anymore, due the success of the new Star Trek films, which are CANON"

Star-Wars doesn't need to keep making movies in order to make profit anymore. It sells alot of merchandise, broadcasts many T.V series, develops video games, etc... Also being canon, as nothing to do with the sustainibility of a franchise, fanbases are the ones who make something popular. So Star-Wars doesn't need to be making movies to make its franchise last, as it already is making profit from other things.



Score


"After tallying the awards won, I think we can assume that this category is tied, because both sides won the same amount of awards."

I would like to remind Con of 2 things

# of Star Trek Movies= 12
# of Star Wars Movies=6

So, to begin with, John Williams is already at a disadvantage. Secondly,

"After tallying the awards won, I think we can assume that this category is tied, because both sides won the same amount of awards."


I said earlier, "There are a ton more awards on the link I provided." So Con completely ignored the the source I provided, because it would go against his argument. Including the link I provided, John Williams won a total of 13 awards, compared to 9 won by all of the directors in Star Trek. So, my resolution is affirmed.




Cultural Impact

There isn't really anything for me to refute for the quotes, but in Con's sources, none of the quotes were ranked, so we have no way of telling how popular it really was, besides the fact it made the top 100.

"I found these entries which I think prove the critical acclaim, and impact it left on the American entertainment industry."

I would like to remind Con about his original claim. "I'd like to point out that Star Trek came out 11 years before Star Wars did. And it's special effects brought much acclaim". None of your sources proved that its special effects brought critical acclaim. It simply said the show brought critical acclaim, and nothing else. So Con has proven nothing to back up his special effects argument.

"in my opinion, that cell phones, and ion drives have much more practical uses than the technololgies my opponent sourced, not to mention there were many more technologies inspired by Star Trek, more than the ones my opponent showed from Star Wars."

In Con arguments earlier, he mentioned about cell phones and ion drives. However, his link directed me to a "Communicator Badge", which are not the same thing as a cell phone. Also, the idea of an ion drive came long before the the Star Trek t.v series were released.

http://www.nasa.gov...





"Here is the source that my opponent requested on the racial barriers broken by having a black woman play a lieutenant in the 1960's"


Also, I'm not sure what Con is trying to say here. He simply is saying Star Trek included black people in its shows, but that wasn't the first time this was done before.

http://www.npr.org...

The first black actor appeared in 1937, so Star Trek isn't the first series to use black actors. Also, Lando Calrissian was portrayed by a black actor in Star-Wars.

http://www.imdb.com...





It is hard to tell who was the first homosexual actor, because many at the time were afraid to tell about their sexuality. Nevertheless, the first gay actor was Billy Haines.

http://www.hollywood.com...;



Here is one actor Yul Brynner

http://www.imdb.com...


He started acting before Star Trek was released, and it was after the Cold War started.

So overall, none of Con's examples were significant, because all of those racial barriers had already been broken. So Con fails in estabilshing that breaking racial barriers helped Star Trek make an cultural impact, because they already have been done before.


Since this is the last round, I ask Con not to give arguments, or it will be a forfeiture for conduct.


I thank Con for this debate.


Midnight1131

Con

Merchandise
I concede that star wars made more sales from profit. But I don't believe that you can compare this against Star Trek, because the aims of the franchise was never to sell merchandise, which is evident, considering that small amount of merchandise the franchise makes itself, compared to items created by 3rd party manufacturers.

Characters
My opponent didn't specify what he meant by his reference to Darth Vader in the previous round, but he clarified it now. I'd like to argue that the alien cultures being relatable too is a huge factor in the sci-fi genre, especially shows that contain an outer space theme.

For the in depth alien cultures, I will provide a link to a few main alien cultures [Romulan, Klingon] in here. Compare these to Star Wars, and you can see the detail and depth that went into creating them.

Also, in the TV shows. The audience is always provided of knowledge of whichever alien culture that features in that episode, even if that culture was created just for that episode.

Concerning the languages, the link that my opponent provided doesn't teach you how to speak a real language. Klingon has been much better developed. After exploring the link my opponent provided, I found the following menu list.

Achuta! (Hello!) Welcome to the Huttese page! Here you will find:

- An introduction and history of Huttese
- A
link to a dictionary of Huttese terms
- A
link to a dictionary of NON-CANON Huttese terms
- Huttese number chart
- A Lessons section
- A
link to transcription of all Huttese dialogue known to humankind
- Alphabet and font gallery
- Related links
- Source section

You can see here, this is just a dictionary, only providing translations of words and phrases. Even though the source I provided is called "the Klingon Dictionary," it also contains general grammar and structure rules, which shows that it is a better developed language overall.

Story

My opponent started this debate to compare the Star Wars and Star Trek FRANCHISES. This means that any fan fictions don't count towards this argument. My opponent states "The fans have taken the Star Wars universe to the very beginning of the Jedi...," while these fan fictions may or may not be taken seriously by the official Star Wars franchise, it is not an accurate portrayal of the franchise itself. But I will refute it nevertheless. In Star Trek, the beginnings of Starfleet are also known. The Klingon-Federation war, and the first contact with the Vulcans are detailed events that are talked about in Star Trek, and these details were provided by the official Star Trek production, and it wasn't just a widely accepted fan fiction.

Sustainability

My opponent here states that Star Wars doesn't need to keep making films to make profit, and survive as a franchise. He provides no real evidence for this, and it isn't totally plausable. Without new material, fans will only keep buying merchandise for so long. To suggest that a franchise, which has yet to release new material, can survive longer than a franchise that already has released new, successful, material, by simply selling merchandise based on it's older productions, is outrageous.

Score

For this category, while my opponent mentions that there is a higher number of Star Trek films compared to those of Star Wars, I fail to see how this equates to Star Wars having the overall better music as a franchise. Also, I didn't include the awards won by the Star Trek TV series, which are equal to, if not more, influential on the franchise as a whole.

These include 5 primetime Emmy's won by Star Trek: The Next Generation alone.

http://www.imdb.com...

7 music based awards for Star Trek: Voyager as well.

http://www.imdb.com...

So, in conclusion, Star Trek did have better music if you take into account the whole franchise.

Cultural Impact

For the quotes, I'd like my opponent to know that the link I provided did infact have 100 quotes on it, so by the fact that the quotes from Star Trek were simply present on the list means that they did make it to the Top 100.

My opponent asked me to provide a source for the critcal acclaim brought by Star Trek.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture won 2 awards for special effects. http://www.imdb.com...

Star Trek: The Next Generation also won 3 Primetime Emmy's for visual effects. http://www.imdb.com...

But Star Trek set a visual effects milestone with it's use of 3D scanning by Cyberware scanning software. This was the first cinematic use of this technology. - https://www.filmsite.org...

For the technologies. I mentioned cell phones, because the communicator badge uses wireless communication between two people. And this badge was used in the Next Generation. While in the Original Series, they used handheld devices, that resemble mobile phones used today. Infact, this likeness inspired Motorola to name their flip phone the Motorola StarTAC. http://mashable.com...

And concerning the Ion Drives. My opponed says that the idea for Ion Drives came long before the Star Trek TV series was released. But his source says otherwise, his source is simply a description of the technology used in the probe Deep Space 1, which was launched in the late 90's. At the bottom, it says that ion propulsion was under development since 1959. But the idea for the modern ion drive technology was inspired by Star Trek, NASA admits. Also, NASA doesn't deny Star Trek influences, which can be seen through their research to make the Enterprise's warp drive a reality. You can even see that on the diagram in the 1st source provided below, the ship underneath "light barrier" is clearly the USS Enterprise.

http://www.nasa.gov...

http://www.dailygalaxy.com...

http://motherboard.vice.com...

My opponent then says that there were no cultural barriers broken by Star Trek. But he only does this by saying black people have appeared in in shows before. But I will discredit his source here. His source talks about Lincoln Perry, a black hollywood actor known for portraying Stephin Fetchit, who was, according to the source my opponent provided "a befuddled, mumbling, shiftless fool." There was a high chance race played a part in his being cast as this character. According to the source, "Seen through a modern lens, Perry's "laziest man in the world" character can be painfully racist." Even more information from the source my opponent provided though, is that "black leaders were putting pressure on Hollywood to rid the screen of the stereotype he was responsible for creating. They believed the Stepin Fetchit character was keeping white America from viewing blacks as capable of joining the mainstream." This portrayal of by a black man, casts a very different light on his race compared to Ltn. Uhura, who was also a woman, in a time where women's rights were also an issue. Nichelle Nichols played an officer in a prestigous organization, which was a milestone. It didn't show black people as incompetent people, only able to portray witless, unintelligent characters. Also, the black actor in Star Wars isn't as big of a breakthrough, because that had already been done in popular science fiction before, by Star Trek. On the case of Billy Haines however, my opponent forgets that George Takei [the Japanese, and gay, actor from Star Trek] was from Japan. And there were racial tensions between White Americans and those of Japanese decent. In fact, George Takei even did a Ted Talk about how his family were forced into an internment camp, as a "security" measure during WWII.

http://www.ted.com...

Also, the case of Yul Brynner. My point wasn't that Walter Koenig [Chekov from Star Trek] was the first Russian actor, but I was just adding that his addition to an already diverse cast was just another example of the multiculturalism portrayed in Star Trek.

That wraps up my rebuttals, as per my opponents request, I have not given any new arguments.

I thank my opponent for this fun and engaging debate. May the best debator win. Live Long and

Prosper.

Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by TheJuniorVarsityNovice 1 year ago
TheJuniorVarsityNovice
Merchandise-
Being that con made the definition of success more objective, I take it that more material success means a winning argument as for as the resolution is concerned. Being that this is the case I clearly have to give this section to PRO, CON conceedes this point when he says this: "I concede that star wars made more sales from profit."....thus this argument goes to pro.

Characters-
I don't really like this category because it isnt objective enough, thus I weighed it in a very minor way. Over all this argument is moot though simply because there is a good amount of good alien characters in both.

Story-
This is just like characters except worse, its way more subjective and depends on the individual. For that reason, and because this is supposed to be an objective debate, I won't count this section.

Score-
This is the argument that won the debate for PRO, Star Wars has at least an equal amount of trophies as Star Trek but Star Trek has been on much much longer and thus the awards are worth less, as PRO pointed out.

Cultural Impact-
This argument was won by CON being that Star Trek has been on longer and was net more popular than Star Wars, thus of course it had a bigger cultural impact, this impact only grows over time as well. However, this argument is irrelevant sadly. Whether or not a show has a large cultural impact doesn't prove that the actual show was better itself. No one even substantiates how exactly this argument effects the resolution and thus as a judge I couldn't consider it as a very substantial argument in the first place.

Good job both of you guys.
Posted by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
Pro should've proven how Oscars are more important than the other awards then. This isn't a debate for you to have in the comments section.
Posted by Eli24 1 year ago
Eli24
For score, you talk about one director, then Pro refuted, then you talk about multiple directors, Pro refutes again, then you talk about T.V series, clearly, you only did this so Pro can't refute that in the last round. Also, Oscars are more important than the other awards.
Posted by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
Please explain how introducing information in other rounds is cheating.
Posted by Eli24 1 year ago
Eli24
scores* not sources.
Posted by Eli24 1 year ago
Eli24
Con, you can't keep introducing information every other round, like you did for sources.Why can't you just post everything in one round? Thats cheating.
Posted by tajshar2k 1 year ago
tajshar2k
There seems to be a formatting issue with some of my paragraphs.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by TheJuniorVarsityNovice 1 year ago
TheJuniorVarsityNovice
tajshar2kMidnight1131Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: comments
Vote Placed by Mister_Man 1 year ago
Mister_Man
tajshar2kMidnight1131Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Regarding cultural impact, I gave a slight edge to Con. Although Pro was able to show how the movies shaped the way future movies were made, Con showed how the world was inspired by Star Trek to create new technologies, including the first space shuttle at NASA, as well as different types of cultural improvements, such as having black/homosexual/ethnic cast. Pro was able to show how the score in Star Wars won more Oscar awards, so edge to Pro. Slight edge to pro on the Alien aspect, as he shows that the aliens in Star Wars are a lot more "alien-like," yet still relateable to a degree. I'd say slight edge to Pro on the Story aspect, considering he shows how the entire Star Wars stories branch throughout the movies, games, comic books, and fanfiction. Overall, a very slight edge to Pro in the arguments. Great debate between these two.