The Instigator
Jurn77
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Cerebral_Narcissist
Con (against)
Winning
23 Points

Star Wars is better than The Lord of the Rings.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Cerebral_Narcissist
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/24/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 7,580 times Debate No: 12820
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (37)
Votes (5)

 

Jurn77

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting this debate. I will begin my argument right away.

I believe Star Wars is all-around better than Lord of the Rings. Overall, it is much more creative and Lord of the Rings is, to be blatant, a series of recycled ideas put into a novel and a movie trilogy.

In my first argument, I will separate each of my reasonings as to why Star Wars is better than Lord of the Rings.

Star Wars is much more creative.

This cannot be disputed. No one can disagree that Lord of the Rings is simply ideas from Old Norse Scriptures compiled with Ancient Mythology, with some alternate names in there. I will, of course, separate these ideas into different sections. Firstly I will explain why Lord of the Rings is not so original after all.

~The Setting~

The famous, or perhaps infamous Middle-Earth, the land of men. The world that Tolkien is so famous for 'creating'.

In actuality, however, Middle-Earth is just another name for Midgard- The land between Heaven and Hell. So this is simply a recycled idea, in which Tolkien touches upon by introducing many races - And these can be presented as metaphors; I will elaborate in my next section...

~The Species~

As famous as The Land of Middle-Earth is, perhaps even more notable is the reputable species that roam Middle-Earth: From the Savage Orcs to the Chivalrous Elves. I'll break them up into categories, which will explain why these races are not so original after-all.

The Orcs: The infamous Orcs; The brash yet loyal servants of The Dark Lord, Sauron. These beasts would make even the bravest Gondorian shiver with fear...But did you know that "Orc" is simply another word for an enemy in Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon? With this, we could understand another reason why Peter Jackson did not comprehend Tolkien's writings - As far as I'm concerned, Tolkien's depictions of Orcs, or Orqai, may have been simply from the viewpoint of the Men, these "creatures" could have been human-like and not disgusting zombie-things like in the trilogy.

They could have simply been depicted as such because of their barbaric ways; Like the Picts were to the Romans. Now don't get me wrong, I never believed that either until I thought - "Maybe that's just a metaphor!"

Or maybe that's what he planned in his early writings.. or maybe I'm wrong completely. Who knows.

The Elves: Ahh, The Elves. All that's good in Middle-Earth. Or is it? Did you know the Orcs are simply corrupted elves? Nonetheless, these ideas date back to the farthest reaches of the German barbarian tribes.

Also, in Old Norse, Men were said to transform into Elves upon their death if they were pious during their lives.

The Hobbits: Ahh, the goody two shoes of Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit. One of the most annoying creatures ever created. My opinion aside, Tolkien's concept of hobbits seems to have been inspired by Edward Wyke Smith's 1927 children's book The Marvellous Land of Snergs, and by Sinclair Lewis's 1922 novel Babbitt. In my opinion, a hobbit seems to be a mix of the main races in LOTR - The Humans, Elves, and Dwarves.

The Nazgul: The dreaded Nazgul, or Black Riders alternatively are the Wraiths of Lord of the Rings. A Wraith is a demonic ghost or spirit; Which is what they basically are. There are 9, they were once all kings and received rings but couldn't wear them or touch them... eventually they became overcome by greed and envy and were transformed into these hideous abominations.

Does anyone think "King Midas" here?!

I could list many more, but I've already used up almost half of my characters. So I'd like to, now, get on to the magic part of LOTR.

Before that, however, let me just say that the beloved Gandalf is taken from a Dwarf from Old Norse. Directly.

~The Magic~

In The Lord of the Rings, there is magic much like any other fairy tale. There are Wizards and Witches and Bad Wizards and Bad Witches... but it's all pretty typical and not too impressive, maybe it would be if Tolkien would've explained magic in LOTR a little better - Like, certain people are born with it or it stems from a source... or something. But Nope, Johnny (i.e. Tolkien, no disrespect btw) leaves us with nothing.

Too bad.

All right, I've wasted enough space - Onto Star Wars.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I haven't already convinced the Audience, let me explain some things to you about Star Wars, and why people take it for granted.

Star Wars is by far the most expansive universe ever, bar none. More than our own universe, more than all the other fantasy universes combined.

Why is this?

Three words.

The Expanded Universe.

[Before the viewers or my opponent says that I didn't count the Lord of the Rings expanded universe, if it has one, I did. I used to be obsessed with LOTR and I know every species that exists in Middle-Earth.]

The Movies did a very good job of detailing the main species of Star Wars, but the EU is just fascinating. You could explore for hours and hours or days and days...

And you could never know all the species, and planets, and crime lords.. etc.

So, I will do basically what I did with LOTR.

~The Setting~

This and the various Species are the most amazing parts of Star Wars.

Star Wars' setting, unlike Middle-Earth's is not just one planet ( or, in LOTR's case, one region.) -- It is an entire Galaxy.

Yes, Galaxy. Filled with thousands of planets, species, space stations, factions, etc.

This Universe contains so many different things it would take a lifetime to name. The Planets are all original with a different history and different natives - From Hoth to Tatooine.

~The Species~

Another doozy. The Species in Star Wars are all original and for the most part are not inspired at all by other writings or figures - unlike The Lord of the Rings.

Some of the truly unique species are:

The Hutts: A race purely meant to form crime organizations, the Hutts are grotesque, slug-like creatures. George Lucas created this race purely from his and his associates' noggins, and it is one of many truly... unique species in Star Wars.

http://starwars.wikia.com...

The Rodians: The stereotypical Martian, which is what they were called on-set. These grubby Aliens are another unusual yet really cool species of the Star Wars galaxy. One notable Rodian was Greedo, the poor sap spaced by Han Solo at the Cantina.

http://starwars.wikia.com...

The Herglic: This Pokemon-looking beast has only been seen in the Expanded Universe; Although IMO it deserves a bigger role. It is one of the weirdest-looking species in Star Wars.

http://starwars.wikia.com...

The Sullustans: These Primate-like creatures look like they'd be more at home swinging on a tree than piloting a ship (a la Admiral Ackbar). They are one of the oddest-looking things in Star Wars.

http://starwars.wikia.com...

See? All these species are very unique yet fit into the galaxy perfectly.

The only race that might have been inspired by another creature is:

The Wookiee(Two E's!): The furry, Bigfoot-like beasts that you just wanna give a big ol' hug! These friendly creatures native to the Jungle planet, Kashyyyk, are one of the best known species in the Star Wars Galaxy. Chewie is an example. (gotta love him).

http://starwars.wikia.com...

Like I said above, they may have been inspired by Bigfoot/Sasquatch, but that's a myth whether that monster even exists.

~The Magic~

(AKA The Force)

The "Magic" in Star Wars is not really magic at all, but the Force; A natural-born ability that actually stems from bacteria inside the body.

Sound cheesy?

It's not. This shouldn't be underestimated - from performing a little bit of Lightning on your enemy, to tricking Stormtroopers, this is the ultimate power in the universe.

I await my opponent.
Cerebral_Narcissist

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for posting an interesting debate topic.

The resolution, "Stars Wars is better than the Lord of the Rings" taken on it's own would produce a very subjective and nebulous debate. Fortunately my opponent identifies specific criteria to address this issue, and once I have addressed his I will other my own.

Creativity
My opponent states that Star Wars is more creative and that "No one can disagree that Lord of the Rings is simply ideas from Old Norse Scriptures compiled with Ancient Mythology,"

However according to Wookieepedia (The Star Wars Wiki).
"The Star Wars story employs archetypal motifs common to science fiction, political climax and classical mythology, as well as musical motifs of those aspects. "

http://starwars.wikia.com...

The Setting

My opponent states that,
"In actuality, however, Middle-Earth is just another name for Midgard- The land between Heaven and Hell. "

I am not convinced that this is an accurate portrayal of Midgard, in addition though Tolkien was inspired by Midgard LoTR makes no reference to key features of Midgard such as Jormungandr, the bifrost bridge linking the world to Asgard etc etc. My opponent needs to substantiate this point.

In addition the Star Wars Universe is in simple terms simply a rehash of preexisting science fiction. My opponent needs to explain what in the Star Wars setting is original compared to what was already present in the genre. Droids, aliens, vast space empires, the battle between good and evil, even the Jedi have all in one form or another been done before.

With reference to 'species' my opponent states,
"did you know that "Orc" is simply another word for an enemy in Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon? With this, we could understand another reason why Peter Jackson did not comprehend Tolkien's writings - As far as I'm concerned, Tolkien's depictions of Orcs, or Orqai, may have been simply from the viewpoint of the Men, these "creatures" could have been human-like and not disgusting zombie-things like in the trilogy."

The Tolkienesque Orc is not simply taken from the old norse, though there is a eytomological linkup. In addition though it is debatable that Peter Jackson's interpretation was the same as Tolkiens version my opponent is not actually aware of what the original version was envisaged to be, ugly replusive and flesh eating.

In addition Tolkein's Orcs has inspired the fantasy genre, they have given inspiration to numerous writers and subgenres. Dungeons and Dragons, Warhammer, Morgan Howell etc etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Conversely Star Wars has failed to create one enduring alien race that has been celebrated or reimagined by any later science fiction writer. It has hower created the Gamorreans, or rather stole the concept of Orcs from Tolkien and passed it off as its own.

Please compare Orcs here,
http://www.google.co.uk...

With Gamorreans
http://www.google.co.uk...

Elves are inspired by norse mythology, very much so. However it is only through the power and quality of Tolkiens writing that the Norse-Tolkienesque elf has become such a popular staple of the fantasy genre. Starwars has not created, or brought back a single fictional race so loved or enjoyed as Tolkiens elves, dwarfs, and orcs.

The Nazgul: The dreaded Nazgul, or Black Riders alternatively are the Wraiths of Lord of the Rings. A Wraith is a demonic ghost or spirit; Which is what they basically are. There are 9, they were once all kings and received rings but couldn't wear them or touch them... eventually they became overcome by greed and envy and were transformed into these hideous abominations.

Does anyone think "King Midas" here?!

I fail to see the connection here.

Though Tolkien was inspired by norse mythology, George Lucas has 'created' numerous two dimensional alien races, frequently with the assistance of paid empolyees and are generally based around a lazy racial stereotype.

Twi'leks, are simply arab traders in space.
Watto, (a toydarian) was created by a team and criticised as an antisemitic parody.
http://en.wikipedia.org....
Ja-Ja Binks faced acusations of 'blackface' amongst others.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

My opponent states that,
"In The Lord of the Rings, there is magic much like any other fairy tale. There are Wizards and Witches and Bad Wizards and Bad Witches... but it's all pretty typical and not too impressive, maybe it would be if Tolkien would've explained magic in LOTR a little better - Like, certain people are born with it or it stems from a source... or something. But Nope, Johnny (i.e. Tolkien, no disrespect btw) leaves us with nothing."

Likewise George Lucas fails to explain the nature of the force and his failure to do so creates inconsistencies that cause confusion. For instance the Dark Side derives it's power from death, it is however part of the force, the force is derived from life. Why should a powerful user of the Force, which is derived from Midi-chlorians suffer from physical decay, such as Palpatine or King Onderon. It makes no sense.

In addition certain creatures without a bloodstream are also capable of using the force.
http://starwars.wikia.com...

My opponent states of the Expanded Universe that
"The Movies did a very good job of detailing the main species of Star Wars, but the EU is just fascinating. You could explore for hours and hours or days and days...

And you could never know all the species, and planets, and crime lords.. etc."

However the Expanded Universe creates inconsistencies, for instance in the films Palpatine states that the Republic has not fought a major since it's founding. In the expanded Universe we have the Stark Hyperspace war within living memory, the Hyperspace War, the 100 years of Darkness, the wars of Darth Revan, the Mandalorian wars. In addition hundreds of people have contributed to the expanded universe, LoTR is mostly the creation of one man.

My opponent extols the virtues of the Starwars universe in the same way that he attacks what he perceives to be the failures of LoTR. (Some of which I have already addressed but I'll go over what I have missed).

The Setting
"This Universe contains so many different things it would take a lifetime to name. The Planets are all original with a different history and different natives - From Hoth to Tatooine"

This is true, however the Star-Wars Universe is vast, it is also devoid of any real development. For instance what is the constitution of the Republic, what are the powers of the Chancellors, how many have been impeached, are there term limits, are there political parties, what are the major religions of the galaxy. These key details are ignored. At least we can gain some sense of culture from Tolkiens Gondorians and the riders of Rohan, the Star Wars universe is a vast but lazy construction.

I have address the issue of species, George Lucas has populated his universe with superficial two dimensional constructs, no depth, no characterisation and generally racist caricatures. Do Hutts worship? Are Rodians anything but hired killers? Tolkien even went so far as to develop an entire language for the elves, a simple description of a single interesting alien race with actual depth is beyond Mr Lucas.

PS: I have addressed my complaints with regards the force.

In conclusion Stars Wars, which is the creation of many people, is utterly unoriginal, has added nothing to the science fiction genre and is a poorly developed setting without depth.

LoTR the creation of a single person, Tolkien in in effect revered as the father of modern fantasy.
Debate Round No. 1
Jurn77

Pro

Jurn77 forfeited this round.
Cerebral_Narcissist

Con

My opponent was sadly unable to make a post for round 2, so I restate my round 1, thankyou.
Debate Round No. 2
Jurn77

Pro

Jurn77 forfeited this round.
Cerebral_Narcissist

Con

My opponent has forfeited again, default to con.

This could have been an interesting debate and I would be willing to have a rematch, perhaps with a longer time limit.
Debate Round No. 3
37 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Jurn77 7 years ago
Jurn77
All right, let me know.
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 7 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
Yea I am up for that!
Posted by Jurn77 7 years ago
Jurn77
Cerebral Narcissist, I very much apologize for spoiling the debate by my inactivity, and all the audience who were awaiting an exciting debate, I am sorry.

We could possibly do a rematch if Con would so want to, and I will make it a much longer deadline.
Posted by tvellalott 7 years ago
tvellalott
REMATCH!!! plz.
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 7 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
Seriously, I rebutted every single point of his!? But anyway that does not really matter now.
Posted by BellumQuodPacis 7 years ago
BellumQuodPacis
Pro had a good running case in the first round that really wasn't fazed by Con. Until forfeits, Pro had the chance of winning.

Before: PRO
After: PRO
Conduct: CON
Grammar: Tied
Arguments: CON
Sources: Tied (Both opponents cited wikipedia itself and not the cite that wikipedia used, considered inaccurate and not necessarily a good thing.)
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
Double forfeit = Default to opponent. Let's finish next time, guys =\
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 7 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
The 24 hour thing nearly put me off, oh well these things happen. Of course I dont when the system will sort itself out!
Posted by Jurn77 7 years ago
Jurn77
Damn, I'm going to start sticking with 2 or 3 days limit,.
Posted by mattrodstrom 7 years ago
mattrodstrom
(just not the first 50 or so pages :)

there was once a whole in the ground... a hobbit hole... about 2 1/2 feet wide 3 feet high, about two meter beneath the top of a hill... Inside there was a corridor leading about 10 feet in with...... (go on for appx. 50 pgs.)
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
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TheSkeptic
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lovelife
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innomen
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