Star Wars (pro) vs Harry Potter (con)
Debate Rounds (4)
1. You claim that Wizards and other magical creatures are incapable of interstellar/interplanetary travel or even air travel other than broom or in Voldemort's case, actual flying. However, you seem not to have considered the ability of apparition, a trait that allows most wizards above the age of 16 to simply appear and disappear at will anywhere they please. This means other planets or inside star wars ships. But this leaves the issue of breathing, surely the wizards do not have the technology for oxygen supply on foreign lands? They have magic, which, as seen from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, allows them to breathe with oxygen for an indefinite amount of time and they can also sustain themselves by temperature control, apparition of resources like food or water
2. Hogwarts, Hogsmeade, the town outside of Hogwarts, Durmstrang and Beauxbatons, other magical schools, and Gringotts are not the only locations that have magical force fields. There is Azkaban and several more magical schools without names mentioned throughout the Harry Potter series that have competed in the triwizard tournament, and an all-girls American academy that is mentioned in the Goblet of Fire. It is safe to assume with the number of students at Hogwarts and the fact that wizards are born worldwide, that there are schools all over the world, along with banks, maybe more prisons, etc. In addition, new barriers can be put up at any time. This is demonstrated by Hermione, a fairly amateur wizard, being able to make more barriers throughout The Deathly Hallows. So wizards like Dumbledore, Voldemort and Grindlewald would be able to put up equivalent barriers at any time.
3. Star Wars technology could not take down the Hogwarts barrier. This is because the barrier is magic. The only thing that can break down magical barriers in more magic. Obi-Won Kenobi defines the force as the following "the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." This is not magic by Harry Potter standards. Magic is less a noun and more a verb in the Harry Potter universe. Magic wouldn't exist without wizards. The ability to alter the universe stems from the magician and not from the universe itself, like the Force does. Therefore the force, good side or dark side, isn"t the same as Magic, these are two different forces and Jedi and Wizards, therefore, are two very different things. This means that force-fields around magical dwellings like Hogwarts cannot be broken by any muggle, which means every character in Star Wars. This also means that any magical barrier or force field cannot be broken down by a Jedi. Especially if the barrier was put up by Dumbledore wielding the Elder wand, which I'll get to in my argument.
Major Point #1 "The Deathly Hallows"
The reason that the deathly hallows are so named is because the wielder of all three becomes the master of death and virtually invincible. The Elder wand, a wand that makes the wielder's spells completely indestructible. This means that any barrier or enchantment put up by the wielder of this wand cannot be broken by any means, except by the Elder wand itself. What does this mean for team Star Wars? End game. Because the most powerful wizard in Harry Potter, Dumbledore, with his hands on the Elder wand, could create a barrier around any place, perhaps with the aid of Voldemort and Grindlewald, that would be completely indestructible except by a very powerful wizard wielding the Elder wand. This is likely the only reason why Voldemort was able to destroy the Hogwarts barrier with the help of hundreds of Death Eaters.
There are three deathly hallows though. There is also the cloak of invisibility which makes the wearer invisible even to death, and therefore invisible to Jedi. And the resurrection stone, which can summon the dead, and though the dead cannot interact with the real world they can be asked of advice and can offer diversion. Such as from Merlin, one of the most powerful wizards ever, or the founders of Hogwarts, also very notable wizards, or from any Harry Potter character that dies in the war with the Star Wars universe.
Major Point #2 "The barriers"
The barriers of magical dwellings are not only likely indestructible for Star Wars characters, but also invisible. Hogwarts and all other magical fortresses are protected from muggles but making the location invisible to them or anyone else for that matter. But of course, Jedi could find these, but if the wizards within see that they have been found out they could be out of there before you can blink your eyes, as they can apparate.
Major Point #3 "Magical Offense"
Any non-magical technology could be easily destroyed by a wizard with the wave of a wand. Obviously, this would be left to warlocks like Dumbledore, who could hypothetically wave his hand and take down an entire fleet of Star Wars air fighters. The only reason that the war between the characters in Harry Potter is so drawn out is because wizards are only rivaled by other wizards, but if the wizards of Harry Potter all decided to gang up on the muggles of Earth, the invasion and killing process of the entire muggle race would take a day or two with the exception of stranglers.
Major Point #4 "Horcruxes"
The ability to make horcruxes is not limited to Voldemort, any wizard that knows the right incantations and has killed any person, one for each horcrux, could make a horcrux. Of course, most of the wizards that do this would be dark or very desperate as horcruxes make you evil and unstable. The only reason more people don't do this is because the knowledge of them are extremely limited and only the most select wizards are allowed the information. But in such a war, the knowledge would likely go down to soldiers on the front lines, if it came to it.
In addition, another interesting concept that could be learned by the average wizard is to make living people into horcruxes. So someone like Voldemort could make a hocrux out of Luke Skywalker or an important commander, making the only way to kill Voldemort is to also run the risk of killing said commander. Which they likely couldn't do because they need certain magical spells that they can't perform or basilisk venom in the school that they can't get in to. Plus, they would also need the actual knowledge of horcruxes and how to destroy them, which they would need a knowledgeable wizard for.
Star Wars may have a massive population and technology advantage. However, Harry Potter doesn't need technology, they have the infinitely more superior capabilities of magic. Harry Potter has the travel advantage with the ability to go anywhere, anytime, instantly. Harry Potter would utterly destroy any Star Wars advance, and the war would become a game of "how long can you run from the inevitable?"
I would like to thank my opponent for offering the debate and thank the audience for taking their time to consider this debate. Forgive me if I came off as too aggressive during my argument, I didn't mean to be so, but while editing, I thought I sounded kinda aggressive.
Harry Potter 1-7
In response to rebuttal 1:
Apparition is a power wizards could use to flee to other areas they know of, this much is true. Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince iterates; however, that a wizard attempting to apparate must picture the destination in his/her head and Star Wars planets and/or starships are not in the memory of any witch or wizard. Furthermore, a direct quote from the Harry Potter wiki page on apparition states "Inter-continental Appariton should only be attempted by the most highly skilled of wizards." This makes inter-galactic Appariton unthinkable and impossible even for one as qualified as Dumbledore or Voldemort. Appariton could keep food and supplies up for Harry Potter preventing starvation from a siege but I don't see this as a factor Star Wars needs to worry about because starvation isn't as fast or effective as other tactics avalible to the universe. I suppose the bubble head charm could possibly be effective in the vacuum of space and I'll give my opponent the benefit of the doubt in regards to that. This means Harry Potter now has local orbit space capabilities but nothing intergalactic or interplanetary for that matter. Even with this ability I can't see an army of broom riding wizards triumphing against just one technologically superior and drastically outnumbering battleship and star fighter fleet. This idea is reinforced by the fact that the biggest effect seen by wizardry on technology in Harry Potter is Harry Potter himself (one of the most powerful wizards ever to live) made glass disappear. Against millenea of superior technology to glass, the ragtag wizarding space/air force would have no chance of victory in the skies or in orbit.
In response to rebuttal 2:
Again I will give my opponent the benefit of the doubt with these insinuated extra locations for witchcraft and wizardry as there is slight proof to it. All I have to say in response is this; there is a fraction of a small planet going up against four galactic armies designed to control multiple larger planets per single fleet. I see no improvement to the numbers game for Harry Potter. The magical barriers Hermione puts up are far too small scale to protect a massive facility like Hogwarts and also have substantial time frames between their casting. If my opponent is referring to the fact that it goes in all directions, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows refers to these local barriers as one barrier per encampment. Furthermore, if these barriers could be put back up at any time wouldn't the one protecting Hogwarts during the siege by Voldemort have instantly recovered after its destruction and prevented the army of snatchers, death eaters, etc. from raiding the school? I strongly believe it is safe to say these magical barriers have a substantial cool down. It takes less time than that clear cool down for Star Wars units to storm a location in more than enough numbers.
In response to rebuttal 3:
My opponent makes the argument that magic can only be beaten by more magic. The hole I see in this argument is the fact that it relies heavily on the fact that Star Wars and Harry Potter are separate universes. Assuming these two co-exist is the point of this debate, and under this assumption there is a shocking similarity between those deemed force sensitive and those deemed a witch or wizard. Both rely on blood. Harry Potter's witches and wizards have their abilities because of magical blood but the nature of this inheritance of power is never explained outside "this person has magical blood and this person does not." Star Wars does explain the exact same inheritance. A force sensitive child has force sensitive blood because of microscopic life forms known as midi-chlorians within their blood. These midi-chlorians are in all living things and are what connect the universe to the force. Star Wars force sensitivity and Harry Potter magical blood are the same thing. Star Wars, being the more advanced civilization, has tapped into the power of the force and has transcended the use of wands to channel their power. The rumbling and flickering Harry created in The Prisoner of Azkaban was actually a very weak force repulse (as seen in Star Wars: The Force Unleashed). Magic is the force discovered by humans on Earth in a weak form. The force would annihilate magic because it is the pure and perfected form of it. Now I also have a less extravagant argument for more down to earth voters. The force is just far greater a power than magic, shown to have far greater capabilities on a far greater scale. It is a universal power whereas magic is just a small power on a single small planet. The laws of magic would not govern the abilities of such a greater power. These laws of no muggle being able to touch a magical barrier are included. Because the force is beyond magic, it is also beyond the laws of magic so it would be able to affect these great barriers and bring them down.
In response to major point 1:
The Elder Wand: The wielder of the elder wand my be able to create indestructible local defensive charms, preventing a collapse of protego in a fight, but a duel is not fought solely on the defensive. Dumbledore would have to attack at some point and he is vulnerable at that point. Furthermore, the force grants the ability of disarmament to even its most basic wielders, similar to expelliarmus inversed. Dumbledore is shown to have this work on him and therefore could be disarmed of the wand by a simple force wielder using it on him when he's not looking. It is also a piece of wood so when he is disarmed, it will get snapped by whomever took it from him. As for the indestructible barriers, I would like to point out Voldemort destroyed the barrier without the blessing of the elder wand. Without the blessing, he had none of its abilities besides it being a regular wand in the hands of a very powerful wizard. The wand belonged to Draco Malfloy, not Voldemort. He destroyed the barrier through his own power, so massive barriers from the wand are destructible to powers outside its own.
The invisibility cloak: While the one who wears the cloak is undetectable, they are not invincible or shielded from anything. A Star Wars army creates a huge array of blaster fire not to mention massive explosions that would more than likely find their way to the wizard wearing the cloak at some point during any battle. The cloak offers a brief escape advantage or protection from direct fire, but in the end it not enough to save the one wearing it from the entire battle.
The resurrection stone: Unlimited second long distractions are really not advantages that will win a war. One person can wield it at a time and only by the time his/her distraction is long gone will another be able to create a new one. Really it offers no significant advantage.
In response to major point 2:
Star Wars will easily overwhelm the entire planet with its numbers so a fleeing wizard can buy a little time until the next place comes under siege like the rest. The barriers I have already covered.
In response to major point 3:
My opponent has offered no proof here on Harry Potter being able to destroy all technology with the wave of a wand. At no point does any spell come up that does that. Also if it were possible Voldemort could have destroyed London as soon as he knew Harry was in the vicinity but he didn't because he couldn't. An Imperial fleet is several times that size so I see no reason why this would be true.
In response to major point 4:
A horcrux splits the soul, not only affecting this life but the next. Any wizard not completely consumed by darkness would avoid this fate. The only people I would see using this are the darkest followers of Voldemort who would then be killed and reduced to a soul fragment. They would then have to use the darkest of incantations only known by the darkest of wizards to come back only to be killed again. Eventually these horcruxes would be found and destroyed and that advantage removed. Horcruxes are a solid stalling technique for Harry Potter but again, it will not win the war by a long shot. Also, Voldemort made a human into a horcrux by accident entirely and even he didn't understand how it worked or even that it existed. Dumbledore knew of it but never found out how so that technique wouldn't be avalible to Harry Potter. The force grants knowledge to those who meditate its secrets, Yoda could summon powerful and detailed visions of the future. The Jedi Council could easily collectively mediate on and be granted knowledge of these horcruxes. Again, they are a stalling technique but have no offensive power.
In conclusion, my opponent has pointed out small advantages Harry Potter could use to buy time but nothing capable of surviving the pure onslaught of Star Wars. My argument remains the same as round two in regards to the offensive capabilities of Star Wars. I thank my opponent for making a very interesting debate and eagerly await the next round.
Sources and side notes:
Most of my sources are directly in the debate but the direct quote comes from here
To my opponent: don't worry about your timing and tone, it's absolutely fine and I respect and appreciate your conduct/knowledge. I hope you won't take any possibly aggressive tones in my own debate to heart either. If they are there, I promise they were unintentional. Good luck in the coming rounds.
1. It is very open to debate as it is within itself a whole other subject whether or not wizards would be able to apparate to foreign locations because, as my opponent stated accurately "a wizard attempting to apparate must picture the destination in his/her head", however apparition is described for more advanced wizards as simply focusing on where you want to go, therefore one could argue that the apparition intructors at Hogwarts told the students to picture their destination in their mind as this could help beginners and one could argue that more experienced wizards like aurors, Death Eaters and such could simply tell themselves "I want to apparate inside that star ship" and do so. Whether or not this is true is unresolvable short of asking J.K.Rowlings, author of the Harry Potter series. And it is proven in several places in the Harry Potter series that magic and magical locations are very detrimental to electrical devices. Quoting the Electricity page of harrypotter.wikia found in the sources, "Magic is known to cause interference in the operation of muggle technology powered by electricity, rendering them inoperative."
2. The barriers around massive facilities like Hogwarts wouldn't be put up by Hermione, certainly at least not Hermione alone, but by a collaboration of very powerful wizards. Assuming by standards that were established in the comments section that not only could Star Wars troops find the barrier around Hogwarts and other places, but destroy it as well, the barrier could be recast or held up by a committee of very powerful wizards like Dumbledore, Voldemort, etc. especially with help from the elder wand. The reason the barrier was destroyed and didn't come back in the battle of Hogwarts was because the barrier was only being held up by four wizards, that while these four (the four heads of houses) are quite powerful wizards they were no match for hundreds of equally powerful Death Eaters and the superior Voldemort. Once the barrier is down it must be recast, which could take a while to restore, but by then dark wizards had breached the premises and the enchantments would be useless.
3. Magic and the Force are not the same thing because, as I said, Magic only comes from the wizards: no wizards, no magic, making Force detection a different thing completely because it is just that: a detection. The Force is there no matter if there are people capable of detecting it or not, that is why it is described as always being there. But if there were no wizards, and in the time before wizards, there was no magic. I stand by these statements. As for the flickering of lights in the Prisoner of Azkaban, I've already addressed this. My opponent also claims that the Force is a superior version of magic, this may seem so because the Force is everywhere in the universe, and therefore capable of massive feats of power, but so is magic, magic is everywhere that the wizards that produce it will it to be, and magic can accomplish equally impressive feats as the power of magic increases exponentially with the addition of more and more wizards.
4. As said, a barrier reinforced by the master of the elder wand would become invincible, Dumbledore could easily hold the barrier while performing daily tasks at Hogwarts as can be seen by similar feats done by him in the past.
The reason Voldemort could break through the Hogwarts barrier is of several reasons, the barrier had been previously berated by hundreds of powerful dark wizards, while the full power of the Elder wand was not extended to him, some was, as can be seen by Harry Potter using Hermione's wand in the Deathly Hallows; though it didn't belong to him; some of its powers, strengths and abilities were transferred to Harry, and also the fact that Elder wand's additional shielding produced by Dumbledore was dropped with the transfer of ownership to Draco. These types of enchantments are meant to be extended after the death of the wizard, but if said wizards wand"s allegiances are switched to another, said wand would drop all lasting enchantments, therefore dropping the Elder wand's enchantments around Hogwarts.
I didn't mean for the invisibility cloak to be used in battle, but used to escape; no sentries or patrol could detect the wearer of the cloak of invisibility. In addition, Dumbledore could actually use this cloak in battle to fight, while protecting himself, while being invisible. And not all personal protective charms are like protego and work in only one direction. Protego is used often in battle because it is easier to perform and fighting usually takes place in only one direction in wizard duels, so a charm offering protection from all sides usually isn't necessary in wizard combat just because the way they do battle with one another. Even if there were no such spells, they could be invented by knowledgeable wizards, a concept I'll save for my last round.
You are right that the resurrection stone wouldn't be very useful in battle; I just inserted the distraction factor as an additional weapon to be used. And yes, though it can offer useful advice from the dead, the resurrection stone would ultimately be pretty useless in a war, I merely mentioned it to address it as the third Deathly Hallow.
5. I have no real rebuttal for this as I have previously defended advanced travel of wizards to expand their travel scope, taking the fight off of not only Earth but other planets as well, this point made by me here would only hold up if the contention of wizarding interplanetary travel holds up.
6. I pointed out the ability of wizards to disable Starships as a logical assumption, not as a directly evident fact, that's why that point was rather weak, I admit. But I wasn't necessarily addressing the ability to take down entire Imperial fleets, I merely meant smaller fighter vessels, as seen in the assault on the Death Star in the original Star Wars or similar.
And I didn't necessarily say that Voldemort could destroy all of London in an instant if he desired, as he would likely need help and more time. He also wouldn't completely destroy London because even when he knows Harry is there, he is far off and isn't powerful enough to destroy it far from its vicinity. He also wouldn't destroy London because he expresses wishes to not necessarily destroy muggles and the muggle world, but rather rule over them with an iron fist: them and other wizards. This is illustrated in the dystopia of Harry Potter in the Deathly Hallows in which Voldemort takes power as the "Minister of Magic" and uses this to very obviously rule over as much as possible with as much power as possible.
7. The horcruxes are, indeed, a stalling technique, but while they are so, I think they are a very good one and could play a pivotal role if handled properly.
I'd like to wrap this up by stating that a lot of what I said here would hold a lot more weight if apparition had as much power as I believe it does, but as that is unprovable and not the subject of the debate, some sort of concession must be made. Because if wizards are capable of interplanetary travel through apparition, then they may very well beat their opponents through trickery and guerilla tactics, but if they are not capable, then this is a very uphill battle for them indeed.
Technology advantage doesn't mean much when held to Harry Potter-brand magic, as previously stated. Like fighting an ocean with a flamethrower.
The population advantage is very useful for the Star Wars side, but the most valuable portions of the Star Wars population are only those of Force sensibility, meaning that the fate of this war would rest almost solely on their survival, because without them, the Star Wars side doesn't hold much weight against magic, as the Force is the closest competitor they have to magic.
I truly anticipate my opponent's next argument
In response to point 1:
My opponent is correct in saying that the ability of a witch or wizard to apparate within an area as long as he/she has seen it versus a witch or wizard must have visited a place to apparate to its general location is highly debatable. This much is true for many other things when theorizing on two separate universes being combined. Assuming my opponent is correct in saying an advanced witch or wizard may apparate inside a star cruiser by looking at it, I would still say this effort would be futile. The time it would take to destroy one of these enormous ships would be far too much (Harry Potter doesn't have information on the layout of a starship, so it would be very mazelike) and there are far too many starships to destroy. Furthermore, defenses of a breached battleship are immense and in the confined hallways of a Star Wars cruiser, Harry Potter casualties would be numerous unless an extremely powerful wizard was sent in (Dumbledore, Voldemort, Grindewald etc.) The abandonment of their posts sustaining the magical barriers around their respective schools would leave them open to attack and therefore I doubt this strategy would be used as the limited witches and wizards Harry Potter has would diminish too quickly. On the topic of electricity, I acknowledge the fact that Harry Potter can interfere with electrical devices but it does not destroy them entirely. Electricity is extremely primitive by Star Wars standards, and so if magic can only interfere with the equivalent of Stone Age technology to Star Wars, I doubt it could cause an effect great enough to make an impact on the universe's warlike technology. As for intergalactic travel I believe my opponent will accept the idea that this is impossible for even the greatest witches and wizards based on the evidence I have presented.
In response to point 2:
My opponent stated in his argument that the barriers around Hogwarts were taken down and could be recast but they were not because death eaters had already breached the school grounds. Star Wars units could do just the same making a recast pointless, but I suppose the barrier point is more centered on the sub-debate about the ability of the force to affect magic. I will address this later in my debate.
In response to point 3:
I should clarify my point on magic and the force being the same. This was a theory based on the fact that these universes co-existed that could be considered conceivable. Theories aside, my main point is the force is a greater power. My opponent states magic is a force (no pun intended) that is created by wizards and becomes stronger the more wizards there are. If this is the case, then it would seem magic is a biological force created by biological beings as it has no other source. The deep science of magic is never revealed directly and again this is left to theories. I will make a point based on my opponent's statement that magic comes from wizards. As I said, if this is the case then it is highly likely magic is a biological creation and has some science behind it. The force is similar, it is created by all living things (including wizards) and is able to be manipulated by those who possess midi-chlorians in their blood. The nature of these midi-chlorians is unknown and I could argue two things at this point. I could say these midi-chlorians are supernatural beings and therefore the force is a supernatural power. If this is the case, a universal supernatural ability would easily triumph over a small scale biological occurrence. I could also assume these midi-chlorians have special properties that allow them to manipulate the force and they are a biological power too. If this theory were accepted, than there would be two biological occurrences fighting one another. Again, it comes down to the fact that the force is a larger power and muggle laws on magic's influence do not take effect because it is so far beyond magic. A good illustration of this would be a rhino attacking a turtle. A turtle's predators have a hard time attacking it because it has a near impenetrable shell, consequently it is not prey to many animals. If an animal such as a rhino were made a predator to the turtle all of a sudden, it could still trample the turtle and break its shell because it is so much bigger and beyond the turtle on the food chain. In the same way, this debate has thrown the force, a power capable of having universal influence everywhere (a huge power like the rhino), against a power that has strong defensive capabilities against other humans strictly on Earth and that is effective against these local predators (a good small scale defense like the turtle's shell) against each other. While magic is powerful, it is dwarfed by the sheer power of the force and therefore the force can and will effect magic with great influence in a fight.
In response to point 4:
The elder wand barrier would be a great task to bring down, but my previous argument shows that the force is not governed by the laws of magic and could affect the barrier. It would still be strong since it is one of the greatest powers magic has to offer. It would take a great deal of force power to bring it down but with enough Jedi and Sith, this is doable. As for other barriers, the greatest power magic has to offer is not active and they could be taken down by a moderate serving of the force. The invisibility cloak would be able to stall the deaths of important wizards, protecting them well but if the user cast a single spell at a remotely close range, their location will be known and much firepower would be concentrated on their location, eventually killing them. It would buy time, but in the end not be able to create enough of an effect to win a war. My opponent states Protego is used because it is quick and easy, matching the fast pace of a wizarding battle and I will not challenge that statement. Star Wars battles are; however, as fast paced if not faster than wizarding battles so it would be likely still used more than 90% of the time in one. Larger in-combat spells would take longer to cast and eventually go down forcing protego to be resorted to once again.
In response to point 5:
Interplanetary travel by apparition would unfortunately be impossible. If intercontinental travel is only for highly advanced wizards then I doubt interplanetary travel could be accomplished. Furthermore, if it was couldn't wizards find safe refuge on a faraway planet to practice magic in peace? I really don't see any way that its possible.
In response to point 6:
Some very powerful spells cast from a broom could probably down a smaller fighter, making for very interesting dogfights. Imperial starships; however, are too big for that kind of spell to destroy and AA defenses could down any wizard that got too close. As for the dogfights, they might be even but numbers I believe give that fight to Star Wars.
In response to point 7:
The horcruxes could extend the war by a great deal but even if resurrection by dark magic is available to Harry Potter, even remotely good wizards would not accept the punishment in the afterlife for creating such dark things. This leaves only the Dark Lord and his greatest allies to use this ability. If he tried to force people to use it, Dumbledore would try to stop him causing a civil war which would spell doom for Harry Potter. They would be a pain to destroy but Star Wars could do it.
My opponent has offered many thorough and well thought out counters to the abilities of Star Wars, many of which are really a debate on what would affect what. I believe that if the universes were combined and went to war the Star Wars universe would triumph because of numbers, the limited travel capabilities of Harry Potter, and a superior ability. I would like to thank my opponent for taking the time to have this debate and his well educated responses. Good luck and may the best man win.
Black-Jesus forfeited this round.
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