The Instigator
greatkitteh
Pro (for)
The Contender
JimShady
Con (against)

Star wars - On balance the jedi are evil

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/9/2017 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 740 times Debate No: 101802
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
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greatkitteh

Pro

The debate is currently inpossible to accept - pm or comment me if you intend to debate me.

ARGUMENT - On balance, the Jedi are evil.

BACKGROUND - Jedi, in cannon star wars, are depicted as guardians of the galactic republic and defenders of democracy. That being said, they come to conflict with many groups, external and internal, who belive the jedi do not represent the good of the galaxy. One of these disillisioned people was one Anakin Skywalker. In a duel, he remarked 'IN MY VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL' - A remark that I will attempt to debate.


RULES

1. No kritiking/spamming all that jazz.
2. Only cannon sources may be used. "Legend" are not considered cannon and illegal. Legends that claridy cannon points may not be used.
3.Con must not "argue" in round 5.
4.Con can "argue" in round 1.
5. Con argues that "WELL THEN YOURE LOST!" While Pro argues "IN MY VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL!"
6. The definition of evil is "morally reprehensible : (1)"

1. https://www.merriam-webster.com...



JimShady

Con

"At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was." -Yoda, Episode III

From my opponent's view, the Jedi are evil, but I'm gonna prove he's lost. The Instigator says I can argue in this round, and pass the 5th, so okay. Also, I'm only going to be using the 7 (soon to be 8) Star Wars saga movies, and if I need to The Clone Wars and Rogue One. I don't really read the books, but most of them are Legends anyway. Even so the movies give plenty of evidence that the Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.

The Jedi Order was formed long ago, I'm not sure of the exact BBY date, but I don't think it ever says in the movies. They've been around for ages though. Why were they created? To instill peace throughout the galaxy through their supernatural ability to use the force. It's important to point out that the Jedi Order only supports using the Light Side of the force, and Jedi who use the Dark Side are breaking the rules of the Order.

Jedi are after all human (or alien), the point is that they are not God (or in the Star Wars series, God is basically the Force.), and thus not perfect. From time to time Jedi have used the Dark Side of the Force, and in this way, I think a group of 4 Jedi broke away from the Order and formed a new group of Force users called the Sith.

The Sith are the opposites of Jedi. Sure, they use a lightsaber, dress in robes and use the force, but their motives are entirely different. The Sith use the Force to gain power and galaxy domination, and they are willing to kill or harm anything to get what they want. There powers are mainly used for attack and war.

On the other hand, Jedi use their powers for defense and peace. Yoda says in Episode V, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." [1]. He also says "Adventure...heh... excitement...heh... a Jedi craves not these things. You are WRECKLESS." [1] Clearly the Jedi want not excitement, but peace, and Luke Skywalker wanting the contrary is an attribute to the Sith.

Anakin Skywalker was definitely one of the most famous and prominent Jedi, and he turned to the dark side. You cite him saying that from his point of view, the Jedi or evil. Although people have different points of view about good or evil, it's meaningless. People or things are either good, evil, or neutral. Someone may think differently, but the facts can be established. Anakin thinks differently, but Obi-Wan on Mustafar points out that he is lost. Here's why:

The Jedi fight for those who can't fight for themselves and for what is right. On Episode I, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go to Naboo to settle a trade agreement. They do not turn to their lightsabers immediately as the Sith would, but only draw their swords when Battle Droids attack them. In Episode II, the Clone Wars start. While Jedi are usually opposed to war (Yoda even says that the war is not a victory, and he dreads the idea of the Clone Wars), they act as generals FOR THE GOOD SIDE. After all, it is a defensive war against the Separatists, who started it. Sure, many horrible acts have been done by the Jedi in the war, like Mace Windu killing Jango Fett and Anakin beheading Count Dooku. However, we can see that Mace Windu showed regret on killing Jango, knowing he should've just dismantled him, and Anakin points out that "It wasn't the Jedi way." So although he is a Jedi, killing Dooku was against the Jedi Order. The same thing with Mace Windu trying to kill Sideous... Anakin says he must stand trial according to the laws of the Republic and Jedi. In Episode 4, Obi Wan aids Luke through the force to destroy the Death Star, a weapon that could destroy planets. In Episode 6, Luke, a full-fledged Jedi, acknowledges the Jedi way and does not kill Darth Vader. In Episode 7, Rey, and up-and-coming Jedi, helps in the battle to destroy Starkiller Base. All the acts that I've just cited in this long paragraph demonstrate the Jedi's willingness to fight for the good side, and it points out times when they killed in direct opposition of the Order.

Now turning to the Sith, the opposites of Jedi, Sideous ordered many Gungans to die (which I am honestly OK with), and He also held Naboo under military control. In episode 2, Count Dooku and Palpatine orchestrate the Clone Wars to instill war in the galaxy. In Episode 3, Darth Vader kills numerous Jedi and younglings, as he is seduced by evil. In Episode 4, the Empire under leader from Sith Lords destroy Alderaan. In V, they take over Cloud City, and in 6, they build a new super weapon to destroy even more innocent lives. Clearly the Sith are not on the good side.

In essence, although the Jedi have unlawfully murdered villains who should've been taken prisoner, on balance they fight for peace and tranquility, choosing to negotiate before fight. In the end of Episode 6, Anakin and Luke restore peace to the galaxy, and in Episode 7-8, Rey (or maybe Luke) "The Last Jedi", fight against the evil First Order.

(Note to readers: I only have one source listed, but I guarantee you that all my listed info is legitimate. Look up anything and you'll see it's correct. The only reason I didn't source things a lot is because, well, for one, it's against the rules, and also to Star Wars fans, the people who are most probably reading this, it's common knowledge.)

Sources:

1.http://www.starwars.com...
Debate Round No. 1
greatkitteh

Pro

Well in my view the Jedi are evil!

*****
The Vaapad (my arguments)

1. BRAINWASHING

Jedi are known brainwashers. The standard practice of recruiting Jedi is surprisingly dark for a group that supposedly brings peace to the republic. Jedi take children from their parents, sometimes against the will of the parents, and they do so not for the child's but for the master jedi's good. Jedi are taught to "let go of their attachments"; having no their loyalty then to themselves.

2. THEY DONT SERVE THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE GALAXY, BUT THEMSELVES.

The Jedi do not support democracy or the republic moreso then themselves. For instance, in the clone wars despite pledging neturality they served as generals in the side of the republic. While it was true forces like Dooku were pulling the strings behind the confederacy, it was in fact the republic who were oppressing independant systems that triggered the entire war. The planets of the confederacy felt unrepresented (as the senate didnt provide the outer rim with equal development. (2) The Jedi had even let corruption, slavery, and un-equal growth (for instance, tatooine where two jedi were compared to Naboo) become of a part of the republic.

The Jedi, two movies later, had formed the alliance under the exact same pretexts the separatists had used against the republic.

3. UNDERMINING DEMOCRACY

The jedi's alliegence is to the republic, to DEMOCRACY . . . When it is in their interest. When it is not , for jedi democracy is only another tool to be used. There are specific examples of this, such as

- Supporting Palpatine to become chancellor and his move to get emergency powers in a conflict he had very little secult (non sith) importance in.
- Sending anakin to spy on their own chancellor; the equivelant in the usa of Mike Pence being used to spy on trump.
- Arresting Palpatine "In the name of the galactic senate" where "the senate will decide your (palpatines) fate" without actual endorsement from the senate, who cheered for Palpatine.
- Deciding Palpatine should be killed after he was defeated, as "He's to dangerous to be alive! He controls the senate and the court."
- Aiding han solo, a smuggler who openly broke the rules of the empire and republic.
- Commiting extrajudicial murder or attempted murder.

In no other democracy are these acceptable. Obama and 3 SEALS cannot storm Trump's office and kill him on the pretext "He controls the supreme court and the us senate!" The truth is Jedi did not care for their democracy, but rather towards their own interests.

*****
SORSEAU - REBUTTAL

1. Jedi's fighting for those who cant fight for themselves/what is right/ fight as a last resort.

Jedi have historcially fought with slaves for those who can fight for themselves. For one, Jedi fight for their interests and not the common good. They fought the separatists right until Vader fought them, in which obi wan switched sides almost immidieately.

While Jedi do occasionally fight for those who cannot defend themselves, they more often slaughter whoever stands in theor way. Anakin slaugthered all the sand people but was pardoned, as "it is only human to be angry." Luke causes huge amounts of collateral damage against humans and allien speicies without losing any sleep over it. Palpatine was threatened with 3 lightsabers without any knowledge of Palpatine's skills with combat.

The Jedi also do not use fighting as a last resort. What Qui-Gonn and Obi-wan did in episode one was only because the chancellor ordered the Jedi to be diplomats, not warriors. Jedi actually did kill unjustifiably in several cases, such as

- Anakin killing all the sand people, including the children.
- Yoda killing two clone troopers who were about to aim on him. Yoda had absolutely no evidence of the clone trooper's intent or even order 66. He alao could have deflected the blasters, yet he belived his percieved paranoia was enough a reason to kill the clones.
- Obi wan, without any sufficent evidence, chops off hands in a crowded bar because of "Jedi Buisness."

The Jedi had no qualms on cheating the poor when they needed it. Aliens without force abilities were constatly used by the jedi, such as when Qui Gonn Jinn tried a mind trick on watti.

2. The Jedi code/ not killing.

My opponent claims himself killing was what the order told them NOT tondo, yet so many times, Jedi comoletely ignored this rule. Only Luke stayed somewhat true, and even then he caused huge amounts of collateral damage without minding.

Almost every duel saw Jedi murder / attempting to murder their enemies.

- Obi Wan Kenobi murdered maul when he was a still target.
- Anakin killed Dooku while knowing it would be against the code and when he was defenceless.
- Anakin killed the sand people breaking the no killing and no dark side rule.
- Mace Windu killed Jango Fett when his equipment was faulty and only had a single "always miss" blaster.
- Even if he "regrets" it, he comes right back to attempt to murder Palptine when he was subdued.
- Yoda killing the clone troopers that were ready to shoot him without any proof but his paranoia. He could easily have deflected the blaster shots.
- Obi Wan leaving Anakin on mustafar to die when all he had to do was show him luke and leia (as well as padme, who wouldnt get a broken heart) to bring him to the light.
- Rey attempting to kill Kylo Ren even as he was already defeated. The fact he was able to escape due to a diversion stopped her.
- Luke killing regular people as collateral damage (for instance, when saving han.)

My opponent claims that the jedi simply made isolated incidents, but this is not true. Only in one duel (luke vs vader) did a jedi show mercy to an oppenent. In every other case, jedi had chosen to kill, a number far higher than one. Luke remains an exception (who still killed thousands with no sweat via collateral damage) , not the rule.

3. Fighting Sith.

It is true Jedi fight sith, and sith are evil. However, just because one fights evil does not mean one is not evil.

Is stalin, for fighting and defeating Hitler, a "normally good person?" If he killed millions? (3) In gang wars, all cribs heros for fighting bloods, a gang that did evil things?
JimShady

Con

"Greatkitteh, my allegiance is to the republic, to DEMOCRACY!!!!!" -a Jedi

Most of the arguments that greatkitteh brings up can be refuted. He does bring up a few good ones, because as I have said the Jedi are not perfect. However, the argument is that on balance they are good. There's still 2 rounds, so I may put up more points. Right now I'll just post rebuttals and counter this guy's rebuttals.

1.BRAINWASHING-
Jedi are known to use mind control, brain-washing, and other skills of the mind, but consider the intent and outcome. First off, force-users are usually given up by their parents willingly and are taken by force rarely. The Sith are known to do it a lot though, such as with Darth Maul and Cad Bane taking force users. The best way to become a Jedi is to become detached from the world, and this can best be done by detaching right at birth. You can see that this produces good Jedi. Jedi who have entered the order at too old of an age, such as Luke or Anakin, ESPECIALLY Anakin, had major problems with being a good Jedi. In order to become the best Jedi possible, it's best to be taken at birth.

2.THEY SERVE THEMSELVES-
When do they ever pledge neutrality? They want to keep the peace, and standing around doing nothing during a war does not keep peace. They fought for the good side, remember, they pledge themselves to the republic, not neutrality. The republic is not perfect, comparable to the U.S. in the 1860s. The South felt unrepresented, so they broke off from the Union. Even though the North should've given more thought to the South, the Union was still the good side, and the Southern rebels were bad. Like the Confederacy, the Separatists were pro-slave labor and taking over worlds that wanted to stay in the Republic. The Jedi were defending.

3.UNDERMINING DEMOCRACY-
I will address each point:
-A lot of people were seduced by Palpatine, not just Jedi. In fact he was not a bad leader at the time. Also, you were wrong, they did not like when Jar Jar motioned emergency powers to him. Mace Windu wanted him to give them up right after the war.
-Spying is not undemocratic, and keep in mind, he WAS a suspected Sith Lord.
-True, they were not endorsed by the Senate, but the Jedi are basically police of the Republic and can make this arrest. Also, is the Senate, under control of Palpatine, supposed to vote to arrest him? That's not how democracy works.
-I've already said, Mace shouldn't have tried to kill Sideous, it was not the Jedi Way. I've also heard that Mace uses some dark side powers, which is an infringement of the Jedi Order. Like I said, they are not perfect.
-You got a point, he is a criminal, but the Jedi are no more, and understand it was for the greater good, Han after all destroyed the Death Star
-Jedi have judicial power to kill, but only in defense.
-Yes, Navy SEALS can't do that to Trump, because Trump is doing nothing wrong. However, if he was secretly aligned with ISIS, they could to be honest.

SORSEAU - REBUTTAL (Rebuttal to Rebuttal)

1. Jedi fight as a last resort.
Name the instance, you are being very unspecific. Jedi do fight for the interests, which is predominantly the common good. Sometimes they may not fight for good (Anakin), but that is un-Jedi like. "They fought the separatists right until Vader fought them, in which obi wan switched sides almost immidieately." I don't understand this line, please explain. Also, your claim that they fight for those who can't defend themselves less than just slaughtering who is in there way is just false. Examples from movies: Naboo, Gungans, Senator Padme', Republic Worlds taken over by Separatists, Alderann, Cloud City, Ewoks. There are many more in Clone Wars, but already I outnumber yours. Also, Anakin should not have killed the Tusken Raiders. However, he acted out of anger, and thus he was more Sith than Jedi at that moment. Luke is not a traditional Jedi, and he never kills just to kill, only in defense. Name a time when he does, other than the pig guards in VI, I admit that was Sith-like... The 3 Jedi knew Palpatine was a Sith, and thus skilled in combat. Too obvious.

Your claim that Yoda killed the Scout Trooper and Gree without knowing there intent is BS. He can easily force mind read them, and he had previously felt through the force the mass amounts of Jedi death by Order 66. It was not paranoia, he knew their intent. Obi-Wan chopped off Zam Wessel's hand because she was aiming her pistol at him, he felt it through the Force. That was an act of defense and mercy, he could've killed her. jedi do mind-tricks a lot, but usually it is for good In the case of Waldo, it was to get off of Tatooine to protect the Queen.

2. Jedi Code- No killing
I have already said, Jedi are not supposed to kill unless in defense. When Jedi kill people otherwise, it is in direct contrast of the Jedi Order, and thus it cannot be counted against the Jedi. That's like a U.S. soldier killing Vietnam civilians. Because of that, is the whole U.S. Army bad?

-Obi-Wan maimed Maul in self-defense. He saw an opening and took it. If he would not have sliced him in half, Maul would've attacked him again. (P.S. Maul did not die, according to CW. I know, I know, I think that's stupid, too., but it is cannon.
-Anakin acted in direct violation of Jedi code by killing Dooku Unlike Maul, he could not fight anymore (his hands were cut off)
-The sand people slaughter was more Darth Vader than Anakin.
-After all, Jango was shooting at him. He could've cut off his hands, but he has a missile that can be fired through his helmet. So killing him was not altogether wrong.
-He acted out of Jedi code when he tried to kill Palpatine.
-As stated before, Yoda knew they were enemies. And if he deflected them, then what? They would keep shooting at him, he would keep deflecting, and it was just go on forever. He ended it in defense.
-Your last point is dumb, no offense. Anakin is seduced, and he hated Padme at that point. Even if he did see his kids, what would make him go back to Jedi? In Episode V he sees Luke, but he wants Luke to JOIN the Sith...
-Rey is not yet a Jedi, therefore she does not know the Jedi way.
-Luke did kill the Gamorean Guards unjustly, I will concede that. (Well, actually, he could've just force choked them a little, as Vader did in Episode IV to the Death Star guy. We don't know if they died).

Once again, Jedi kill in defense, and when they don't, they are not following the Jedi Way. Obi-Wan killed Maul and Grievous in self-defense. Luke killed those on board the Death Star, yes, but think if he HADN'T. Many more would die. All of those who died on the first death star are technically killed in self-defense.

I like your closing remark about Stalin and Hitler and Cali gang warfare. However, it is in vain, as I have just refuted that the Jedi are evil. They are good.

"...The Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic..."
-Obi-Wan, A New Hope

Sources:
1. http://starwars.wikia.com...
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Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by greatkitteh 1 year ago
greatkitteh
Sorry; i was busy. Will argue
Posted by qwzx 1 year ago
qwzx
I have replied to your.....comment on my feminism debate. Enjoy...Wannabe Ben shapiro
Posted by greatkitteh 1 year ago
greatkitteh
Ill accept you later on
Posted by JimShady 1 year ago
JimShady
Draws green lightsaber.
Posted by JimShady 1 year ago
JimShady
I'm a big Star Wars fan and I could debate this topic all day. Of course the Jedi are not evil. Let's debate.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
You underestimate my power
Posted by greatkitteh 1 year ago
greatkitteh
>middle ground

I HAVE THE HIGHGROUND CAPITALIST. ITS OVER.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
But then again, the idea of a grey Jedi comes from the star wars video games... so I suppose it's not canon.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
Actually, I would take a middle ground position. I think in some ways the Jedi are evil, and in others the Sith are evil. Grey jedi is the way to go.
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