The Instigator
FallofEmpire888
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
Ore_Ele
Con (against)
Winning
12 Points

State education is indoctrination

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/14/2010 Category: Society
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,410 times Debate No: 10843
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (4)

 

FallofEmpire888

Pro

The "public education system" as the common culture of today's society claim that state education is an ideal method of educating the young. In this debate I want to refute this concept and show a darker side of the state education system. Rather than educate it teaches the young to become obedient to authority and represses questioning skepticism, free thought instead of mindlessly shoving the boring and repetitive curriculum down the students throats. The purpose of education after we get passed of all cultural dogma and state propaganda was not to educate but to make you into another tool in the market working in repetitive stressful job which you do to gain money in order to pay taxes which goes to fund wars and increase the power of the state.

The school environment tries to reflect the stressful work environment by giving you useless tasks which you get "GRADED" on. If you do not do well on the arbitrary tests and homework assignments you will get pressure by the authorities (teachers staff principal substitutes). They will then contact your parents and give you stress at home. This degrading system in which your intelligence is graded by an arbitrary number and you are told what intelligence out to be. You are not free to choose what you want to learn and select what you excel at. This artificial system of cramming on average 30 students into a small room to be yelled at and feed lies and treated like you are less intelligent than you actually are!

Public education does not make for a intelligent young who are ready to help and improve society but leads depression mental distress anxiety and this can lead to much negative behavior in the future. I believe there must be a drastic change in how we educate the young. The chaos of the public education system results from what we would expect when the state gains power over a vital part of life.

http://www.newfoundations.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Ore_Ele

Con

Where to begin (fyi, I post like I type, so it may help if you read it as if you were listening).

Let's start with some basic definitions. "Indoctrination" - 1 : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : to teach
2 : to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle. Given the intense words that Pro has chosen to use, I feel safe that he is referring to the #2 definition rather then the #1. So that is the one I will be fighting "to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle."

There are many points in his opening post, so I will only address the most blatant ones at first until some sources are presented.

1) "The "public education system" as the common culture of today's society claim that state education is an ideal method of educating the young." I am unaware of anyone saying that our current public education system is the "ideal" (meaning conforming to an ultimate standard of perfection or excellence) since that would imply that there is no need to improve upon it. Yet millions upon millions of dollars as well as thousands of work hours are used to improve it each and every year. While it is not the perfect system, it is a system that is designed to teach everyone. While private schools get to pick and choose their students, public schools is left picking up the rest. So needless to say, one would expect different results as for grades and for cost. I mean, if you were to be playing dodge ball, and Team A got all the first picks, 1-10 and Team B got the rest 11 - 20, it wouldn't be hard to see who had the edge, yet that would not be an accurate reflection on the coaches. While some conclusion could be made, it is not an end all comparison that can not be taken without a grain of salt.

2) "...show a darker side of the state education system." I fail to see how the lighting in a school building points towards brainwashing students. In all fairness, schools should use less lighting to save electricity to save tax payers' money, so long as the low amount of light does not negatively effect the quality of the education.

3) "The purpose of education after we get passed of all cultural dogma and state propaganda was not to educate but to make you into another tool..." I find this to be an odd statement. While I've heard things like, school doesn't teach anything we need for the work force and like such, but never that it tries to teach us to become a "tool." I can only speak for the 10 schools that I've attended (3 elementary, 3 middle, 1 high, and 3 colleges), but none of them taught me how to do what I'm doing now, tech support for Apple. I actually looked through the college course catalog and found nothing in the credit classes for working in a call center (did find 1 in the non-credit though). I also did not find anything in the high school class catalog for the school that I went to in regards to call centers, or sales. Though there was marketing and managing, but both of those were electives and purely optional. Though I will take the time to sit in on a class or two to see if they are trying to sneak the message into biology class or french class.

4) "...feed lies..." Cheap pizza and stale fries, while not the healthiest of lunches, are not lies although they may not be fully open about some of the ingredients (http://www.cracked.com... *warning strong language inside*).

5) "Public education does not make for a intelligent young who are ready to help and improve society but leads depression mental distress anxiety and this can lead to much negative behavior in the future." I would have to disagree with this. In studies regarding depression in school aged kids, show that school is actually a small factor (while it is still a factor, family, finances, and friends, or lack there of are much larger indicators) [1][2][3]. And with anxiety, private schools are actually more stressful then public ones [4].

I will leave it at this for now and await your side of things.

[1] http://www.extension.umn.edu...
[2] http://www.uhs.berkeley.edu...
[3] http://www.brains.org...
[4] http://privateschool.about.com...
Debate Round No. 1
FallofEmpire888

Pro

I would have to disagree with this. In studies regarding depression in school aged kids, show that school is actually a small factor (while it is still a factor, family, finances, and friends, or lack there of are much larger indicators) [1][2][3]. And with anxiety, private schools are actually more stressful then public ones [4].

_My opponent does not see the connections between these problems finances, family, school and friends are interrelate and causes social problems in modern days society. For example parents stress there children do good in school to gain higher economic positions in the market.

I can only speak for the 10 schools that I've attended (3 elementary, 3 middle, 1 high, and 3 colleges), but none of them taught me how to do what I'm doing now, tech support for Apple.

_As Chomsky pointed out in the video clip above, the corporations are having difficulties because there is a contradiction they want obedience but they can't get creativity and innovation.

Yet millions upon millions of dollars as well as thousands of work hours are used to improve it each and every year. While it is not the perfect system, it is a system that is designed to teach everyone.

_No the purpose of the system is not to educate that may be the political rhetoric spouted by government officials but it is no the real reason. The ultimate goal is to get you into the market working for a small group of political and financial elites.

My opponent apparently does not know what the argument is about it is irrelevant bring up private schools because state education is pretty much as private. Problems which are happening in society are not random they have there roots and interconnect. To fix the problem we need to stop the environment that creates it.
Ore_Ele

Con

"My opponent does not see the connections between these problems finances, family, school and friends are interrelate and causes social problems in modern days society. For example parents stress there children do good in school to gain higher economic positions in the market."

Oddly enough, studies show that parent involvement is constantly decreasing year by year and that when a parent does get involved, the stress goes down for students [1], so apparently, parents aren't stressing their children very much. And those that do, aren't actually causing stress but are reliving it.

"As Chomsky pointed out in the video clip above, the corporations are having difficulties because there is a contradiction they want obedience but they can't get creativity and innovation."

Between AFT [2] and NEA [3], the public schools are almost entirely run by the various teacher's unions[4]. And since 1914, unions haven't exactly gone hand in hand with big business[5][6].

[1] http://www.michigan.gov...
[2] http://www.aft.org...
[3] http://www.nea.org...
[4] http://teachersunionexposed.com...
[5] http://unionreview.com...
[6] http://www.portlandonline.com...
Debate Round No. 2
FallofEmpire888

Pro

FallofEmpire888 forfeited this round.
Ore_Ele

Con

I am going to give my opponent the benefit of the doubt that something caused him to miss his argument. To keep things even, I will pass this round and wish my opponent the best of luck. Also, as to whatever caused him missing this, I hope that it is not serious and that everything is okay for him.
Debate Round No. 3
FallofEmpire888

Pro

I thank my opponent for skipping the last round, I have been really busy recently in school ironically with finals so now I am going to try to make a good response. First I want to try to refute some some of OreEle's points, but after that I want to move forward with this subject and shows how it interrelates with other subjects and maybe come to some consensus.

"Between AFT [2] and NEA [3], the public schools are almost entirely run by the various teacher's unions[4]. And since 1914, unions haven't exactly gone hand in hand with big business[5][6]."

The public schools aren't actually run by the unions (a reaction of workers who group together try to resist state or private exploitation), there influence is minimal and mainly extends to teachers rights such as higher pay and less constraint from the curriculum. All they really do is rally up the teachers and go on strike for a week once every couple years, but the influence on the state education system is marginal. The main reason for this is because the "education" system is run from the top down, centrally planned and run, where the politicians and the business make decisions the are rammed down the system to the teachers and students. Decision making is being made by people who are not affected by there decisions.

By thinking that unions control the "education" system it is obvious to see why he would think that big business is not involved. Business men lobbied the state for kindergarten, abolished local control, have disproportionate power on school boards. "A steadily lengthening school year led to an extended career ladder, specialization, and a credential-oriented society. School people were assigned the role of bringing about a conflict-free world by teaching indirectly that the preemption of work by corporations and professions (later by government) was right, proper, and "scientific." Also attitude and the curriculum was set to fit business interests.

The grading system sickeningly reflects the racist ideologies was set up to reflect the evolutionary hierarchy. So that business men could select the most indoctrinated students who where rewarded by gaining privilege higher up in the hierarchy while the students with lower grades were dumped out into the working class.

Once we look at the history of public education which started in Prussia and was viewed highly by business men and politicians. They modeled the American "education" system off the Prussians that had used it to increase the military power and create a failed Utopian society, and was used to mold students into servants of the private sector working efficiently for corporations.

Why should we accept these institutions who force us into these giant dull buildings. Are we not even aloud to question the system that takes a third of are day away from us. Destroying are creativity and freedom to be shaped into another cog in the capitalist machine for there ends not are own desire. Giving us lots of mocking assingments and straining tests which have no relevance with our lives. Putting a grade on are intelligence and acting like education is merely a game that can be calculated with a number. Putting us with strangers who yell at us and no nothing about us. Having us run from classroom to classroom like a worker in a office filing and taking orders. Filling us with data which that barely goes through are heads and then are expected to spew back the repetitive data onto a test, then criticized for not writing out the data properly. Told that we need to do this to get are desired dream jobs, instead being givern mindless repetetive jobs and at the most if your lucky an 8 hour desk job which is unhealthy and destructive to the human psyche. Family's are being broken apart from this work it is hard to make meaningful friends when most of the people you see in your day are merely artificial contacts who work with you but do not care for you, rather compete against you. We have been lied to by institutions that care nothing for us, deceived by false promises that have led to failures. History stores many things but has the power to refute the prevailing beliefs, ideologies, and intuitions.

http://www.spinninglobe.net...
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Ore_Ele

Con

I'll try to keep this short.

The notion that the teacher's union has no power is not being supported by you, as you've provided no unbiased sources. I will gladly show that at my old high school, the site council (which is in charge of how extra money is spent within the school, including but not limited to donations, fundraisers, and ticket revenue) is 4/9 school staff, 3/9 parents, 1/9 students, and 1/9 community members[1]. Now, I fully realize that this is just a single school, but I can show that this trend (giving almost all voice to the school staff and parents, and very little to "community", which basically means business) is common in many schools. This ratio was actually worse back when I was on the site council from 03-05. The community was 1/11 and even the students out numbered them with 2/11. Most of what we did was a battle between the parents and teachers as to implementing new teaching methods.

But let's pretend to go with the conspiracy theory. If we are making the assumption that the schools and their classes are dictated by big business interests and their goal is to make a horde of mindless obedient zombies, then it leaves quite a few questions that need to be asked.

1) If schools were trying to teach us to obey authority without question, then why would they allow for experiments in science classes, or questions in general? Instead of doing experiments on various chemicals in testing solubility, why not just tell us things and have us "trust them"?

The initial answer would be to build that trust through proofs so we don't doubt them later, which kinda makes sense, but not when you think that they would be "trying to built trust" at the ends of our educational requirements (high school). This would make sense if they were doing this at the elementary level and then implementing and testing that trust at the high school level. But to try to build that blinding trust on people just as they leave school seems like poor planning on the big business.

A far more likely reason for this? To let us find out for ourselves that certain things are true and to show us how to test things so that we can learn for ourselves and not have to relay on others to tell us info.

2) If schools were only preparing us for a future of dull work in a cubicle jungle, then why wouldn't they actually teach us anything about working in a cubicle or doing office jobs or anything like that? Having to train us at the actual employment site, only wastes time and money for the company.

The likely argument is that they (the big businesses) don't want the students and people to catch on to what they are doing, they are hiding their hand. But this only makes sense if they plan on using their hand later in the "game" (which you just lost). Like in texas hold 'em, if you have the winning hand, you slow play so your opponent doesn't catch on that you've already won, but by the end you try to make the most out of it. You wouldn't check after the river card if your opponent also checked. And so a business may try to hide their hand and not make it obvious acts to let people know what they are doing, but they also aren't going to do nothing to achieve their goals.

What is more likely, is that the schools are not actually trying to prepare us for cubicle life. While they do have a responsibility to prepare us for working in the real world (since getting an education, then not being able to get a job would kinda piss people off), it is not their sole responsibility or goal.

3) If schools were trying to conform us into a "one size fits all," then why offer AP classes and advanced classes? Or any extra curricular activities? Or even allow us to us (on the high school level) choose our own schedules? Giving students such freedoms and options to customize and individualize their schedules for their futures, seems to contradict the idea that they want us all to be the same man in the grey flannel suit.

One might try to explain this as, it is a false sense of freedom that they bestow on kids to allow them to think they are individualizing when, in fact, they aren't. They are more likely to accept the conformation if they falsely believe that they are getting an individualized education. But while this explanation seems to hold true when people go from high school directly to the work force (since employers don't really care what classes you took in high school), it falls apart when a student tries to go to college. Those AP classes (or IB classes) and extra-curricular classes are very important when trying to get into a college and degree program. A 4.0 GPA is not going to get you into MIT or Caltech if you didn't take calculus or physics (same thing applies to pretty much every Ivy league school too). And that degree from Harvard looks so much better on a resume then a degree from so and so State University. And so, on that standpoint, those AP classes and extra-curricular classes ended up making a huge difference on the job you can get.

A more likely reason, just like how schools try to prepare you for the real working world, they also try to prepare you for college and getting into the best one of those that you can. Really, what they do is to try to prepare you for whatever you want to do (be it college, trade school, or working). And because people often change their minds a lot about what they want to do, the schools have to go with a more rounded out base of knowledge to go from as a launching pad.

[1] http://www.sherwood.k12.or.us...
Debate Round No. 4
FallofEmpire888

Pro

FallofEmpire888 forfeited this round.
Ore_Ele

Con

I'm sorry that my opponent was unable to post his final argument and hope that everything is okay for him.

The idea that state education is indoctrination is a common conspiracy that comes out every now and again. The problem with it is that there are just so many holes in the argument that just don't make sense, as shown by my previous questions.

Does school try to teach us things that will make us do better in the work world? Yes, of course it does. Why would anyone want a school that doesn't prepare them for the real world?

Does school try to brainwash us into being mindless puppets to the big evil business man? No.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by FallofEmpire888 7 years ago
FallofEmpire888
I am fine I am just busy with finals this week but I should have my next argument posted Friday.
Posted by Ore_Ele 7 years ago
Ore_Ele
You're the one that started with "public education system" so if you want to say it isn't really "public" but "private" you're more then welcome to back track.
Posted by FallofEmpire888 7 years ago
FallofEmpire888
OreEle, "Public" education is just as much private as the US government is basically a private institution which conceals it's illegitimacy by claiming that it serves "the will of the people" and other absurd statements. It is a private monopoly that helps corporations.
Posted by Ore_Ele 7 years ago
Ore_Ele
I am so all over this. As someone who has gone to both private and public schools.
Posted by Xer 7 years ago
Xer
You're indoctrinated? It appears as though you go to a public school.
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Vote Placed by Yvette 7 years ago
Yvette
FallofEmpire888Ore_EleTied
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Grape
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curious18
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Vote Placed by Ore_Ele 7 years ago
Ore_Ele
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