The Instigator
mostatebears17
Pro (for)
Winning
51 Points
The Contender
philosopherpirate
Con (against)
Losing
18 Points

Stopping Illegal Immigration

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/17/2007 Category: News
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,925 times Debate No: 624
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (9)
Votes (23)

 

mostatebears17

Pro

In America right now there are aproximately 12 million illegal immigrants. Now my posistion on this topic is that there should be some sort of military force guarding our borders rather than a bunch of volunteers called the Border Patrol. If we had some National Guard troops or active Army troops on the border Illegal Immigration will almost drop to zero. Our Boder Patrol is tired, civilians, and they just can't get the job done with the limited resources they have.

T.J. Bonner of the National Border Patrol said
" As of right now we are working 3 shifts a day, 7 days a week and are simply overwhelmed"

And thats exactly why we need to take this immigration problem into consideration and this is probably one of the top five problems we face in America today!
philosopherpirate

Con

There are a number of problems with mostatebears17 arguments.

1. The border patrol are not volunteers, they are paid professionals. They have helicopters, vehicles, infrared cameras, guns, surveillance satellites, ect. They are specifically trained to guard the border and are the best force to do so.

2. The army and national guard are poorly equipped to guard the border. These branches of the armed forces are trained to do a very specific task: fight wars. They do not understand the nuances and intricacies of guarding the border, of arresting people, of the relevant international law, and of the rights of illegal immigrants. At best, the army and national guard would be ineffectual at guarding the border and at worse would violate the rights, abuse, and unnecessarily kill those attempting to cross the border.

3. It would be a particularity bad idea to have the national guard guard the border. When joining the national guard, new recruits are told that the extent of their commitment is one weekend a month, two weeks a year. The rest of the time, these people are just average people working normal, full time jobs, living with their families. Having them guard the border would amount to indefinitely drafting thousands of people, destroying their lives and hurting the economy by pulling so many productive people out of their jobs. Moreover, the national guard do not receive nearly enough training, let alone the right type of training, to be effective border guards

4. Illegal immigration is good, if not at least necessary. Those twelve million immigrants do not risk life and limb to come here to just lounge around. The vast majority, the major exception being their children, work one if not two or three jobs, jobs most Americans are not willing to take. Our economy needs those millions of jobs filled and preventing them from being done would hopelessly cripple the US economy.

5. The army is incapable of guarding the border. The army is stretched to the limit by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and simply do not have the resources or man power to guard the border. Having the army guard the border would require either a reduction of forces in Iraq or a reduction of the precious little time at home soldiers already have. Either option would be an unacceptable cost to gain what little border protection the army could give.

6. Illegal immigration is good because it is the only way that millions of people have to free themselves from economic and political oppression. Millions of people are virtually condemned to a life time of poverty, starvation, and oppression simply because they happened to be born in the wrong place. It is terribly dehumanizing and antithetical to the principals the United States supposedly supports. Illegal immigration is often the only recourse these millions of individuals have since legal immigration is a painfully slow and bureaucratic process. Even though these people were not born in the US, they still have a right to the same sort of political and economic freedoms we enjoy and the only option is illegally immigrating to the United States.
Debate Round No. 1
mostatebears17

Pro

Okay here is an attack on all of your arguments.
1. Your right, the border patrol is specially trained to contain the border. Well one question for you. WHY ISN'T IS WORKING? You seem to be all for the border patrol when really you have no idea that we are at the worst immigration level EVER.
2. Now what you say about the National Guard and Active Army makes no sense. Okay first the National Guard was made to protect WHAT? I can tell you the answer. AMERICA. If they are made to protect America then that is what they need to do. Also you say the the National Guard and Army cannot take on such a task but your saying that guys who are letting in 3 to 4 million illegals every year will do a better job. I dont understand your arguement. Apparently the so called technology that you say they have is not working.
3. Okay here is what gets me. "Illegal Immigration is good" What? These people are coming over here and what they do is make a threat of foreign terrorism and yes 1 out of 3 or 4 million can possibly be a terrorist or a criminal. Actually in California there are millions of murders, rapes, burglaries, and robbings that occur by illegal immigrants. If the argument you are going to make is that American do crimes also. Well at least we have records of them and to not be able to find these criminals would be so harmful for our country.
4. Okay really quick about the terms for the National Guard. Well first they can be told directly that they can serve on the border for 15 month enlistments or even 24. But whoever is joing the National Guard will be willing to serve our country regardless.
5. Now my last arguement just extends all my past points. Illegals are dangerous and they can do harm. I realize that every Illegal Immigrant isnt murderers and robbers but it doesnt matter even if the smallest amount were criminals we have to stop them. Boder Patrol troops are tired and need assistane. The NATIONAL GUARD AND THE ACTIVE ARMY CAN take care this problem if giving the chance. Finally we need to stop this problem or eventually we will be paying all of our Social Security money to pay for the over drought of people while they dont pay income tax.
philosopherpirate

Con

"1. Your right, the border patrol is specially trained to contain the border. Well one question for you. WHY ISN'T IS WORKING? You seem to be all for the border patrol when really you have no idea that we are at the worst immigration level EVER."

-The border patrol is not working for two reasons. The first reason is that there are not enough border patrol agents to complete close off the border. The second reason is that it is impossible to stop illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants streaming into this country are not only responding to economic demands, we need them to fill jobs, but are also looking for more political and economic freedom. These people risk their lives crossing the border to have the opportunities American's have and they cannot and will not be deterred by any amount of guarding of the border.

"2. Now what you say about the National Guard and Active Army makes no sense. Okay first the National Guard was made to protect WHAT? I can tell you the answer. AMERICA. If they are made to protect America then that is what they need to do. Also you say the the National Guard and Army cannot take on such a task but your saying that guys who are letting in 3 to 4 million illegals every year will do a better job. I dont understand your arguement. Apparently the so called technology that you say they have is not working."

-Of course the national guard is trained to protect America, but they are trained to protect it in a very specific way: waging war. The national guard cannot deal with every threat to America. If America is threatened by protectionist trade practices in the EU should the national guard suddenly be involved in international trade relations? Guarding the border is beyond the scope of the national guard's training and ability and so they should not guard it.

"3. Okay here is what gets me. "Illegal Immigration is good" What? These people are coming over here and what they do is make a threat of foreign terrorism and yes 1 out of 3 or 4 million can possibly be a terrorist or a criminal. Actually in California there are millions of murders, rapes, burglaries, and robbings that occur by illegal immigrants. If the argument you are going to make is that American do crimes also. Well at least we have records of them and to not be able to find these criminals would be so harmful for our country."

-Illegal immigrants (specifically those who have crossed the southern border, what this debate is about), at least historically, have not lead to a single act of terrorism. The acts of terrorism that have been carried out on US soil were either committed by US citizens or by immigrants who came here through legal channels. Mostatebears17 is right that the undocumented nature of illegal immigrants is the problem. The solution: give them documents, make them legal. It is terribly impractical if not impossible to stop all illegal immigration into this country and to kick out the 12 million already here illegally. It would be much easier to legalize them all and give them proper documentation. This means they would have track-able arrest records, they would pay the taxes people accuse them of dodging, and would in every way become full, productive, and contributing members of American society.

Furthermore, illegal immigrants have arrest records, and they can be "found" (whatever that means). When illegal immigrants commit crimes, we arrest them and send them to jail just like American citizens. Mostatebears17 gives no reason why it is uniquely worse for illegal immigrants to commit crimes than citizens or legal immigrants, nor does he prove, or even argue, that illegal immigrants commit more crimes than citizens or legal immigrants.

"5. Now my last arguement just extends all my past points. Illegals are dangerous and they can do harm. I realize that every Illegal Immigrant isnt murderers and robbers but it doesnt matter even if the smallest amount were criminals we have to stop them."

-He cannot extend his arguments when I refute them and he ignores my second, fifth, and sixth argument. Moreover, it is terribly bad logic to prevent 11.9999 million people in this country because .0001 million are bad eggs. The benefits of illegal immigration vastly outweigh the costs.

"The NATIONAL GUARD AND THE ACTIVE ARMY CAN take care this problem if giving the chance."

-This is simply not true and mostatebears17 ignores my arguments that disprove this. The army and the national guard are not only not trained to guard the border, they are ignorant of the national and international laws that govern immigrant rights and border crossings. As a result, the army and national guard would not only be terribly ineffective organizations to guard the border but would most likely needlessly shoot, kill, or assault many immigrants trying to cross the border.

"Finally we need to stop this problem or eventually we will be paying all of our Social Security money to pay for the over drought of people while they dont pay income tax."

-If mostatebears17 thinks that illegal immigrants receive social security benefits or that income taxes fund social security then he has no idea how the organization works. Illegal immigrants have no impact on social security.

Furthermore, mostatebears17 advocates stopping all illegal immigration by putting the national guard and army on the border. His primary problems with illegal immigration stem from their undocumented status and its effect on their status on the justice system or tax system. My counter-advocacy is that we should legalize, grant amnesty, to all current illegal immigrants. This would solve his problems becaue they are now documented which means that they pay taxes and can be "found." My counter-advocacy is also a much easier to implement solution to the exact same problems and can fix them better.

Finally, mostatebears17 ignores my second, fifth, and sixth arguments. When he concedes that the army is incapable of protecting the border because of its commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan, that the national guard is poorly equipped and trained to guard the border, and that illegal immigration is good because it provides immigrants with an opportunity to be free and be economically mobile, he should lose because those three arguments are sufficient to disprove the resolution.
Debate Round No. 2
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by spinaltap 9 years ago
spinaltap
Most Americans are immigrants. And most came here legally. I don't see why we can't enforce our boarders and let people come here legally. Obviously we need some major reform because we should allow more people to come here if they want to work and obey our laws, and make a better life for themselves. Isn't that the American dream? That said, if they choose to break the law and come here illegally we should send them back because their first act on our soil is illegal. They obviously do not respect our laws so we should not respect them. Same goes for the politicians who protect and defend the illegal immigrants. They took an oath to protect and defend our laws. They can't cheery pick which ones they want to defend. We should throw them out of office and send them to Iraq. Furthermore, businesses who knowingly hire illegal immigrates should be fined for the first offense and jailed for the second offense. Again, I'm for immigration...just not illegal immigration. We need to elect politicians who will fix the backlog of applications and let honest, hard working people come to our country and thrive.
Posted by philosopherpirate 9 years ago
philosopherpirate
"He has enough training to be in Iraq , I think he is trained well enough for the border."

Its not a matter of "enough" training, but the right type of training. The type of training a soldier gets to fight in a war is not the same type of training you need to guard the border. Not only are the situations simply different and what you do in one is not the same as what you do in the other, but there are different laws regarding the use of force and arrest (namely, you arrest people trying to cross the border, but there aren't a whole lot of arrests going in in wars). It is these differences that make the national guard, and especially the army, not very good border guards.
Posted by philosopherpirate 9 years ago
philosopherpirate
"Look philosopherpirate, I have been looking over a lot of your debates and I see one thing in common with them all. You always say "I should win because... or my opponent should loose because..." These are all uncalled for, Let the voters decide for themselves! You job is not to tell everyone why you are amazing but to proof your argument to be the winning one. I agree with you on some issues actually quite a few but your tactics are all screwed up. I cant vote for you for this reason! I am sorry."

That is the dumbest reason to vote for a side ever. Not only does it ignore all the arguments made by both sides, it is wrong. My job is not to let judges make up their own mind, my job is to make a convincing argument so they can easily see who won the round. I identify important issues people should vote for by saying they should vote for them. Its an attempt to make judges decisions easier by highlighting key issues. In fact, since you and other judges seem disposed to vote on issues where were brought up by neither debater, I would say labeling issues as places where people should vote necessary to prevent dumb decisions like yours.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
philosopherpirate, You say the NG only does two weeks , that is not true .. the majority of them serve a deployment from anywhere from a year to 24 months. My husband is currently in Iraq. Also they can be sent on deployments for months when a national disaster occurs. IE They were deployed for months with Hurricane Katrina, and also with the Tsunami in Thailand. Also they have very adequate training. My husband went to basic training , and does 2 weeks a year ,one weekend a month and trains for border duty when he is home and has his weekend drills. He has enough training to be in Iraq , I think he is trained well enough for the border.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
Mostatebears , There are National Guard at the border. They were put in place last year , when you do your two weeks out of the year that is often where you end up , my husband was going until he was transferred to a unit that was deploying and had to get his bags from the bus ... They are there , they just cant carry guns that are loaded ..which is not right , because they should have a way to protect themselves , not everyone coming over the border is peaceful . There are drug smugglers , and guerillas , and people running sex slaves and most carry weapons , for example the there was a group of NG soldiers that were shot at my automatic weapons and had to hide in a bush until they were gone , because they had no form of protection.
Posted by brandonallison48 9 years ago
brandonallison48
Look philosopherpirate, I have been looking over a lot of your debates and I see one thing in common with them all. You always say "I should win because... or my opponent should loose because..." These are all uncalled for, Let the voters decide for themselves! You job is not to tell everyone why you are amazing but to proof your argument to be the winning one. I agree with you on some issues actually quite a few but your tactics are all screwed up. I cant vote for you for this reason! I am sorry.
Posted by NSG 9 years ago
NSG
I am a legal immigrant moving to the US and work hard to achieve my goals.

You need to be clear about WE ARE NOT AGAINST IMMIGRANTS!
We just want them here LEGALLY.

Immigrants do help this country with its economics, but the point is-Come here LEGALLY.
Posted by megan91509 9 years ago
megan91509
ojmartinez25, I would be sad if my parents were murderers and went to jail for the rest of their lives, but if they were they should take responsibility for their actions. I can't help but feel you are at a bias because of your own ethnicity.
Posted by ojmartinez25 9 years ago
ojmartinez25
should not stop immigration because if you your parent were Illegal Immigrate you will be sad of them. And they are taken away you will be mad,sad,and angry.
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