The Instigator
SarcasticIndeed
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
1Historygenius
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Stormcloaks' Goals Are Right

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
SarcasticIndeed
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/4/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,783 times Debate No: 21711
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (15)
Votes (2)

 

SarcasticIndeed

Pro

Note: This is a serious debate Whoever wants to argue against me has to have adept knowledge over Skyrim lore.

Okay, this is something I've wanted to debate. As you may know, in Skyrim, Stormcloaks are the rebels. They fight for the right of worshipping Talos, which is banned by the Thalmor and have their leader as the High King of Skyrim. They fight the Imperial Legion, who is forced by the White-Gold Concordat to outlaw Talos.

Con must argue against this, and explain why the Imperial Legion is right.
  1. Round-Acceptance
  2. Round-Opening arguments (Con may refute in this round)
  3. Round-Rebuttals and defending one's arguments. New arguments, if there are any, may be posed here.
  4. Round-Rebuttals and defending one's arguments.

Game quotes or similar things do not need to be sourced, but it is preferable. http://www.uesp.net... or http://elderscrolls.wikia.com... are good sites for this (especially the first one).

Looking forward to an interesting debate!

1Historygenius

Con

OK I accept!
Debate Round No. 1
SarcasticIndeed

Pro

First, I want to thank my opponent for accepting the debate. I'm as well sorry for the late post (while I'm writing this I merely have an hour and 40 minutes left. So, yeah. Now, I will proceed to explaining why are Stomcloaks right in their goals.

I will base most of my argument on one point.

Worship of Talos
Talos was one of the most worshipped Gods of all deities in Skyrim, as the player finds out while he plays the game. However, this worship was forbidden by the White-Gold Concordat between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion to result in piece. Skyrim never decided or was even asked about this. The Empire only uses this as a valid rule since it doesn't want war with the Dominion (Hence the quote from Imperial Soldiers "What the Stormcloaks like to forget is that the Empire is what is keeping the Dominion from Skyrim"). This is obviously not very nice of them. Talos was one of Skyrim's national symbols, essentially. Imagine if you forbid Christianity in America. What would happen? Rants, rebellion since Christanity is so common in America. All Stormcloaks are asking is to get back the fredoom of worship, which, I believe, many would consider normal. People wish to worship whoever they want. The Thalmor don't have any place in saying people what do to, and their reason is not necessarily strong. The position of Talos as a deity is somewhat implied in the game. The player can get his blessing, which improves his stats, essentially proving Talos exists. Normal people can't give blessings through ther shrines, now, can they?

So, to conclude, Talos is a very important part of the Nordic culture. However, Imperials forbid it without even consulting with them. Thus, the Stormcloaks have the right to rebell and fight for their rights.
__________________________
On another note, hoping to evade Con's possible argument, I'm going to explain why Ulfric isn't a murderer or a bad person.

First, I want to note he is a highly trained soldier, a very good leader (seeing how he named a whole army of his name and how loyal it is to him). As for the murderer part, it is heavily implied that, he, in fact, had a fair duel according to the Nordic customs. He didn't use his voice to kill the High King of Skyrim, but his sword. The voice was merely a tool to get him on ground. Thus, he cannot be called a murderer.

If Con asks how do I know that Ulfric is this honorous Nord, I have two proofs.
  1. Not only Ulfric tells this story his way about the duel, but Sybille Stentor as well, the very court wizard of Solitude. She claims she was there when the duel happened. Ulfric challenged the High King and he had no choice but to accept, due to the customs of the Nords. Therefore, this murder wasn't a cold blooded assassination. (Con can check, if he wants to. Just go to Sybille. She will say this, he just has to choose the right dialogue)
  2. If Ulfric is killed during the civil war quest, and then the player continued to the main quest, he will see Ulfric in Sovngarde, the Nordic afterlife. And Sovngarde is a place for valiant, courageous Nords. [3] This obviously means Ulfric wasn't a bad Nord, and fought for good.Sources:
1. http://www.uesp.net...
2. http://www.uesp.net...
3. http://www.uesp.net...










1Historygenius

Con

OK now I will being my arguments.

The Issue of the Worship of Talos
While things maybe better in Skyrim if Talos was legalized the Imperial Legion is simply honoring their commitments. The Empire probably wishes that Talos would be legal, but if they make it legal they will get crushed by the Thalmor. If Thalmor crush the Empire then practically the Dark Ages of the Elder Scrolls will begin. To relate this to history the Dark Ages are considered what happen in Europe for centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire which united the most of Europe at the time. Like the Roman Empire, Skyrim's Empire would be shattered into many pieces each being held by a possible warlord dictator who wanted to collect them all. Ever heard the phrase "United we stand, divided we fall." That is what would happen if the Stormcloaks win in Skyrim.

How Ulfric is Bad
Ulfric is bad in the sense that he would represent the "....divided we fall" part of the phrase while the Empire stands for "united we stand". The Thalmor would love if Ulfric could win the war and cause division because that would make it easier for them to conquer Skyrim. Ulfric basically causes the Dark Ages if he wins, in the Elder Scrolls. Also, while it may not be true, it is possible that Ulfric could not just be in the war for the Nords, but also for personal gain (rule all of Skyrim) many rebel leaders wish that in the modern world. In end the Thalmor want Tamriel can use Ulfric to get what they want.

The Stormcloaks are Racist
Especially in Windhelm the Nords have segregated two groups within the city. These two groups are the Dumner (Dark Elves) and the Argonians who are both segregated into two sections in Windhelm. It is only said through Viola Giordano that the Dumner are more heavily taxed than the Nords are at the Jarl's wish. The Dumner are forced to live in the infamous slum below Windhelm called the "Grey Quarter" because of the Dumner skin color and Ulfric turns a blind eye to their pleads. The Argonians on the other hand are forced to live outside the city walls and live at the Argonian Assemblage and work at the city docks. If the Stormcloaks come to power this racism and segregation could spread through all of Skyrim and engulfing it into a rage of fire and blood on the Dumber and the Argonians. In many ways, Ulfric is like Governor George Wallace of Alabama who was pro-segregation of whites and other races in the south and ran for president in 1968 winning Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Arkansas. Luckily, Richard Nixon won the presidency.

http://www.uesp.net...
http://www.uesp.net...
http://www.uesp.net...
http://www.uesp.net...
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...(Skyrim)
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...(Skyrim)
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://answers.yahoo.com...
Debate Round No. 2
SarcasticIndeed

Pro

First, I want to thank Con for a good argument. I also want to note that the first two sources were placed as a mistake. They were a part of a text I deleted. Now, I will continue onto proving my point.

Defending My Argument:

"The Empire probably wishes that Talos would be legal, but if they make it legal they will get crushed by the Thalmor"

Con makes a mistake by saying this. If the Empire could truly be crushed by the Dominion, the Thalmor would already attack it. I would say the two armies are about tied in their forces, and the Empire would probably have the upper hand. After the Battle of the Red Ring, the Dominion lost all of its forces in Cyrodiil, the main territory of the Empire. The war would continue, but Titus II realised his army was too exhausted to continue battling. Additionally, Hamerfell solely managed to stalemate in a war with the Aldmeri Dominion, proving they aren't nearly as a strong army as Con presents them. [1] If the Thalmor couldn't have continued the war against the exhausted Empire, it means it was severely damaged. Therefore it isn't true that, if the White-Gold Concordat was broken, the Thalmor would've won.

I, however, agree with the first part of the sentence. The reason the Empire wants to respect the Concordat is not in order not to get crushed by Skyrim, but most likely only not to cause a war.

"Like the Roman Empire, Skyrim's Empire would be shattered into many pieces each being held by a possible warlord dictator who wanted to collect them all."

If the Stormcloaks won, they would most likely be the strongest force, and not many holds would oppose this. Logically, if they won the civil war, all the Jarls would accept Ulfric (especially since the Jarls royal to the empire would be changed). They would find a common enemy in the Thalmor. Therefore, Skyrim would pretty much be united if Stormcloaks won. Perhaps minor rebelions might break out, but a majority would respect Ulfric.

Again, Talos is a national symbol taken away without their acceptance, and it is not only Ulfric's will to get it back. Numerous people in Skyrim want Talos back. It is perfectly normal to go against this, and protect the honor of your land.

Refuting Con's Arguments:

"The Thalmor would love if Ulfric could win the war and cause division because that would make it easier for them to conquer Skyrim. Ulfric basically causes the Dark Ages if he wins, in the Elder Scrolls."

This is not really true. As I quote "During the quest Diplomatic Immunity, a Thalmor Dossier on him can be found revealing that he was captured and interrogated by the Aldmeri Dominion as a prisoner of war during the Great War. The Thalmor currently consider him a "dormant asset", albeit "uncooperative", as they need the civil war to remain in a stalemate." [2] This proves that the Thalmor wouldn't find it benefitial for the Stormcloaks to win. For what reasons, it remains unknown. I could guess it is because a war with Skyrim would prove to be very unfortunate for them, greatly weakening them. Perhaps they fear that they might win, as well. Therefore, this point is not true.

"Also, while it may not be true, it is possible that Ulfric could not just be in the war for the Nords, but also for personal gain (rule all of Skyrim)."

While this may be possible, it is usually hinted otherwise through the game. While General Tullius has this opinion of him, everyone close to him appears to think otherwise. After all, this is a debate of whether Stormcloaks' goals are right, not Ulfric's himself, though they most likely share the same interests.

The Stormcloaks are Racist

Con continues saying that Stormcloaks are racist. However, this isn't only the case with them. The guards in every city will say "What is it, ?" to anyone who isn't a Nord (Unless the guard isn't Nord himself). It is noted by numerous Khajits that they aren't allowed in cities, and that they have to stay outside of the cities. Although to a lesser extent, Argonians are under a similar situation. As for the Dunmer, I guess it's Ulfric dislike for Mer since they make the Thalmor. I know that it isn't a reason, but still makes some sense. Additionally, these traits of racism have been shown in numerous Nords throughout the game. It isn't specific to Ulfric, though I agree he promotes it the most. However, there are no signs that show Ulfric would carnage these races if he became the High King. I don't think things would change much.

Sources:

1. http://www.uesp.net...
2. http://www.uesp.net...







1Historygenius

Con

I thank my opponent for continuing and not forfeiting. On another debate at the same time I was doing this one, my opponent forfeited! :( That is not a fun debate, but this one is. :)

"Con makes a mistake by saying this. If the Empire could truly be crushed by the Dominion, the Thalmor would already attack it. I would say the two armies are about tied in their forces, and the Empire would probably have the upper hand."

I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree with my opponent, respectfully. The Thalmor are probably making an actually good tactical decisions by not attacking now as there is a possibility that they may get crushed, but that is where I only agree with my opponent. You see, perhaps the Thalmor would get defeated by the Empire again which is actually good why they are waiting. Perhaps the Thalmor are hoping for the Stormcloaks to win and thus the Thalmor can win with a "divide and conquer" plan. Even if the war is won by the Empire it still weakens them as they lose troops. If the Stormcloaks win it maybe worse. Also I in a way disagree with my opponent that the Empire would probably have the upper hand. This is because the Empire is not the same old Empire. Two hundred years after the Oblivion Crisis the Empire is in a state of collapse with many provinces seceding the Empire, the first being Black Marsh followed by Elsweyr. The Empire is in a state of corruption and betrayal. The Imperial Legion is not better. What was once the most powerful fighting force in Tamriel is now just a shadow of its former self and its condition is much like the Empire's. Without the Legion all would be lost for the Empire.

"Like the Roman Empire, Skyrim's Empire would be shattered into many pieces each being held by a possible warlord dictator who wanted to collect them all."

I posted my own quote because I made a mistake in it. I meant Skyrim's Empire in terms of meaning the Empire during Skyrim so just during the game and during the game the Empire is not just in Skyrim. The Empire is on the continent of Tamriel. I am sure that in its current state the Empire has also suffered from troubles all over the continent. The Empire has to spread out the Legion all over the continent and is slowly weakening. Losing Skyrim maybe wound the Empire perhaps fatally. It would raise the morale of other rebellions and start the Dark Ages of the Elder Scrolls. The Stormcloaks may have a bigger impact than you think. However, I disagree with my opponent that if the Stormcloaks won they maybe the strongest force in Skyrim and not many would oppose this. First off, the Stormcloaks came out of a bloody civil war and thus they may be weak.

"This proves that the Thalmor wouldn't find it benefitial for the Stormcloaks to win. For what reasons, it remains unknown."

Then it is possible that it could be a trick. Also the civil war is not technically cover when you take down Solitude or Windhelm depending on who you choose. They do state the possibility of small bands of either side still out fighting which will be hard to find. While the Empire is weak, even if the Stormcloaks take Solitude what about the possibility of reinforcements? The war does not end with the taking of Solitude or Windhelm, the campaign in the Skyrim Civil War ends.

Continuing with the Stormcloaks are racist argument. What the civil war does is again bring other rebels against the Stormcloaks. In fact, the Stormcloaks may have to deal with a united force of Dumner, Argonians, and Khajits. Also the small bands of Imperials + reinforcements and the Thalmor may actually attack if that happens it would be the perfect opportunity for them and everything would work out for them.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...
http://www.uesp.net...
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com...(Skyrim)
Debate Round No. 3
SarcasticIndeed

Pro

"I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree with my opponent, respectfully. The Thalmor are probably making an actually good tactical decisions by not attacking now as there is a possibility that they may get crushed, but that is where I only agree with my opponent. You see, perhaps the Thalmor would get defeated by the Empire again which is actually good why they are waiting."

My opponent contradicts himself at this point. First he says the Empire would be rushed by Thalmor should they make Talos worship legal. Then, later, he says that they did good by not attacking the Empire since they could be crushed. Thus, I do not know which side does Con take. The solely purpose of my argument on this point was to say why his sentence "The Empire probably wishes that Talos would be legal, but if they make it legal they will get crushed by the Thalmor" is not true, which he presented in the second round.

Why Con takes a totally different opinion in the second round, I do not know. However, since he contradicted himself, I guess it's bonus points for me.

"Perhaps the Thalmor are hoping for the Stormcloaks to win and thus the Thalmor can win with a "divide and conquer" plan. Even if the war is won by the Empire it still weakens them as they lose troops. If the Stormcloaks win it maybe worse."

I already said why this is wrong in the past round. Skyrim would be more unified with one side won, than being in a civil war. The Thalmor certainly doesn't want anyone to win in the civil war. I will talk about this point more a bit later in t argument. Then Con says that it would be bad for the empire to win since it would weaken them. This is a logical fallacy. The one who loses is certainly more weakened than the one who wins. Therefore, it would not be benefitial to them at all. Same thing with Stormcloaks.

"This is because the Empire is not the same old Empire. Two hundred years after the Oblivion Crisis the Empire is in a state of collapse with many provinces seceding the Empire, the first being Black Marsh followed by Elsweyr. The Empire is in a state of corruption and betrayal. The Imperial Legion is not better. What was once the most powerful fighting force in Tamriel is now just a shadow of its former self and its condition is much like the Empire's. Without the Legion all would be lost for the Empire."

First, to clear up the definitions, I want to note that the Imperial Legion is the army of the Empire. [1] Therefore, the state of the Empire and the Legion is always the same. Con talked about them as seperate forces, which is wrong. I do agree that the Empire is far weaker than it once was. However, if it was as weak as my opponent says it was, then the Thalmor would have already attacked. Their intentions are obviously of conquering nature, and if they could do it, they would've already started. In the year 4E 175 the Thalmor faced their biggest defeat up to date, significantly weakening them. [2]

Just 5 years later, Hamerfell went against one of the conditions of the Concordat, which said that the Southern part of the country should be taken by Thalmor. Without anyone's help, Hamerfell defended their country. [3] It would be logical to asume that the Dominion was in bad conditions at the time. It was both weakened by the war and lost a large part of its potential territory. This also shows the White-Gold Concordat would've been uneccesary, and that, even though it would be exhausting, the Imperial legion would totally erradicate the Aldmeri Dominion, if it continued the war.

Skyrim is set only 21 years after the last noted year. [3] In such short time, the Dominion couldn't have possibly improved their state by a large amount. The Empire would recover for the same time, additionaly.

I've shown that the Empire could still win in a war against Thalmor, and that the Dominion was severely weakened by the recent wars.

"I meant Skyrim's Empire in terms of meaning the Empire during Skyrim so just during the game and during the game the Empire is not just in Skyrim. The Empire is on the continent of Tamriel. I am sure that in its current state the Empire has also suffered from troubles all over the continent. The Empire has to spread out the Legion all over the continent and is slowly weakening. Losing Skyrim maybe wound the Empire perhaps fatally. It would raise the morale of other rebellions and start the Dark Ages of the Elder Scrolls."

The Empire, during the game of Skyrim, has stabe control of High Rock and Cyrodiil, with Skyrim being under Civil War. [3] I agree that it has suffered from the continous wars over the last years, but losing Skyrim wouldn't mean a fatal punch to the Legion. I also don't know about what "rebllions" is Con talking about. The only one existing at the Skyrim time is the Stormcloaks vs Imperials. There exist no other rebellions that could start the Dark Ages. Additionaly, the Dark Ages aren't defined in the game. One could look at the whole Fourth Era as a dark age, but it doesn't go against the Stormcloak rebellions.

"The Stormcloaks may have a bigger impact than you think. However, I disagree with my opponent that if the Stormcloaks won they maybe the strongest force in Skyrim and not many would oppose this. First off, the Stormcloaks came out of a bloody civil war and thus they may be weak."

Con says that if Stormcloaks won, they will not be the strongest force in Skyrim. I oppose. If the Legion is driven out, the largest military force would be them. Jarls would have been changed to those who are in favour of Stormcloaks, with Stormcloak guards patrolling the cities. This happens in the game itself. Of course, certain families would go against them, but nothing major would happen. About the last sentence... well, it is obviously not true. They obviously have great organisation, or they wouldn't have gotten as far as in the start of the game. If they were weak as Con says they could be, they wouldn't be given an option of winning in the game. If something arises from a cil war, it doesn't mean it is weak.

"Then it is possible that it could be a trick."

This couldn't have possibly been a trick... I don't know if my opponent has finished this quest, but it involves infiltrating the Thalmor Embassy and taking classified documents from it. The Thalmor would have no need to fake them.

"Also the civil war is not technically cover when you take down Solitude or Windhelm depending on who you choose. They do state the possibility of small bands of either side still out fighting which will be hard to find. While the Empire is weak, even if the Stormcloaks take Solitude what about the possibility of reinforcements? The war does not end with the taking of Solitude or Windhelm, the campaign in the Skyrim Civil War ends."

First, I want to note that it is not only takning one of these cities that make the win of either side. During the questline, the side who the player fights with takes numerous forts, which are the base of Imperial/Stormcloak operations. During the Stormcloak questline, they also acquire large weapon and silver resources from an Imperial caravan. [4] Not only does this go in favour of Stormcloaks, but also weakens the Imperial resources. After the Solitude battle, the number of Imperials in skyrim would be so small it wouldn't even matter. These small camps are just the remaining soldiers which cannot do anything but hopelessly defend themselves. Skyrim would most likely be rendered free, and Empire would only be in loss by sending reinforcements. They were in not such a good situation before it anyway.

Racist Argument
This argument makes no sense. Khajits and Argonians are treated everywhere equally, with only Dunmer being especially discriminated (only in Windhelm). Their number would, either way, be meaningless. The small bands of imperials would be too small to do anything. I've already stated why there wouldn't be reinforcements and Ulfric either way wants to attack the Thalmor when he wins [5].

Conclusion and soures in comments-lack of space


1Historygenius

Con

"My opponent contradicts himself at this point. First he says the Empire would be rushed by Thalmor should they make Talos worship legal. Then, later, he says that they did good by not attacking the Empire since they could be crushed. Thus, I do not know which side does Con take. The solely purpose of my argument on this point was to say why his sentence "The Empire probably wishes that Talos would be legal, but if they make it legal they will get crushed by the Thalmor" is not true, which he presented in the second round."

Actually there was no contradicting here. How the Thalmor will crush the Empire is simple. What they can do is wait for the time to come because sometimes patience is key. They are waiting for the Empire to get weaker to they (the Thalmor) can be stronger against them (the Empire) in the war. It is not a totally different opinion, I am just explaining how the Thalmor can tactically win and why they are not attacking immediately. Comparing this to our history lets look at the Battle of Austerlitz in the Napoleonic Wars. Napoleon was waiting for his enemies to attack him to he can win.

I have explained why Thalmor find the Civil War beneficial as it remains a stalemate. I understand about all the forts as well as the conquering of the capital cities in the war, but we cannot say that the Empire will just simply pull back out of Skyrim and give up. The Empire would want those forts and resources back and thus it would send troops to get them back.

"Khajits and Argonians are treated everywhere equally, with only Dunmer being especially discriminated (only in Windhelm)."

This what he said this round, now lets see what my opponent said last round:

"It is noted by numerous Khajits that they aren't allowed in cities, and that they have to stay outside of the cities. Although to a lesser extent, Argonians are under a similar situation."

In case my opponent completely changed what he said this round. You are not treated equal if you are not allowed in a town. If the Stormcloaks do take control of Skyrim more people will discriminate because the Stormcloaks will rule more than Skyrim and that is why the Khajits, Argonians, and Dumner would rebel. Numbers do make a difference in terms of the size of your army. Then the rebels would help those small bands of imperials out.

http://www.uesp.net...
http://www.uesp.net...
http://www.uesp.net...
Debate Round No. 4
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by SarcasticIndeed 5 years ago
SarcasticIndeed
Did you even read a sentence of the debate, 1dustpelt? It's stormCLOAK, not clock... <_<
Posted by 1Historygenius 5 years ago
1Historygenius
That no one hear knows what Skyrim.
Posted by 1dustpelt 5 years ago
1dustpelt
Nobody votes because nobody knows what a stormclock is. Is a stormclock a clock that measures storms or something?
Posted by SarcasticIndeed 5 years ago
SarcasticIndeed
Conclusion:
I have proved why Con was wrong in his point while mine remained untouched. Stormcloaks are fighting for the freedom of worship anyone would have. If Skyrim separated from the Empire, there would be no beneficial things to the Dominion. Skyrim is stronger unified, than in a Civil War. They also have a vast army that could easily have the upper hand against the severely weakened Thalmor.

Sources:
1. http://www.uesp.net...
2. http://www.uesp.net...
3. http://www.uesp.net...
4. http://www.uesp.net...
5. http://www.uesp.net...

Vote Pro!
Posted by SarcasticIndeed 5 years ago
SarcasticIndeed
Agreed.
Posted by OMGJustinBieber 5 years ago
OMGJustinBieber
TRACKED WE NEED MOAR SKYRIM DEBATEs.
Posted by SarcasticIndeed 5 years ago
SarcasticIndeed
Where it says "What is it, ?" the "<race>" I wrote is missing, probably a coding mistake. Just noting this not to confuse Con.
Posted by 1Historygenius 5 years ago
1Historygenius
OK then I accept!
Posted by SarcasticIndeed 5 years ago
SarcasticIndeed
If you're confused, see the now on-voting stage debate "We should go to Mars". Pro obviously meant "the human race" or "the USA" by this. However, Con says that "we" means himself and Pro. He self-proclaimed himself as a winner because of this. This is just a poor way of debating.
Posted by SarcasticIndeed 5 years ago
SarcasticIndeed
Well, essentially, it is using a different meaning of the word, or a true meaning of a word misinterpret by people to win a debate.

For instance "Planes Can't Fly" is a debate and the instigator is Pro. Then, he says he's right by saying the definition he meant by plane is "A surface containing all the straight lines that connect any two points on it." It is a dumb example, but that's what semantics are. Using the meanings of word to cheat your way through the debate, essentially.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by OMGJustinBieber 5 years ago
OMGJustinBieber
SarcasticIndeed1HistorygeniusTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Very interesting debate. Con's case would have been bolstered a lot by challenging Pro on the right of Talos worship rather than just accepting it and speculating about a Thalmor backlash. Con questioned the consequences, but the resolution concerning the goal of Talos worship went largely unchallenged. The debate inevitably became murky when both sides brought up points about the relative strength of the Thalmor, Empire, and Stormcloaks when precise numbers are not feasible.
Vote Placed by 1dustpelt 5 years ago
1dustpelt
SarcasticIndeed1HistorygeniusTied
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Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: IDK what a stormclock is.