Stormcloaks are better for skyrim than Imperials
Anything you can come up with on why Imperials are better, you put it into your argument. Just comment to let me know you wish to participate.
I accept, And i think that The imperials are the lesser of the two evils. I cant wait to see your Arguments, and for you to see mine.
This debate will contain Spoilers.
This debate will take any arguments whatsoever that prove any aspect of the stormcloaks or imperials is superior to the other, whether it be economics, standards of living, relations with other provinces, and the future of Tamriel, the actions of your particular Dragonborn, and etc..
I support the stormcloaks. The debate will start this round.
Stormcloaks are better for Skyrim for a number of reasons.
Ulfric killed the high king in fair combat, Torygg accepted the challenge and was killed. What the empire should have done was offer skyrim to Ulfric, but urge him to remain part of the empire. The empire has caused a lot of bloodshed by being control freaks and wanting skyrim.
Stormcloaks are better for the city of Whiterun because...
^My point with all this is that Whiterun would be stronger as a stormcloak city, seeing as how so many agree with the stormcloaks by default. If the imperials took control there would be a lot of persecution in the city, the battle borns would be allowed to continue their corruption.
Greybeards and Blades
Stormcloak soldiers and imperial soldiers
Among the ranks of imperials, when counted, most are actual native imperials, and only a couple are Nords, and the rest are bretons. This means that hardly any Nords are in the imperial army, whereas stormcloaks are all nords, with the odd regaurd here and there. This means that the majority of skyrim is already stormcloaks. The imperial soldiers in Skyrim have been sent there from High rock and Cyrodil to hunt down the stormcloaks. This shows that though 80% of skyrim's nords show support for Ulfric, the empire has sent soldiers from Mmorrowind, Cyrodil, and High rock to make sure that it stays in the empire.
Stormcloaks are cautious when dealing with magic, and that is a good thing, bcause in numerous caves we find that necromancers kidnap innocent people and set them on fire, or enslave their souls, or performing surgical operations on the bodies of victims. These things ar e not welcome in the homeland of the nords. Siding with the stormcloaks ensures such people who perform these acts are hunted down and brought to justice. Still, the college of winterhold is a safe place to practice magic even after Ulfric gains the throne, and if the Dragonborn becomes archmage that's even better. Don't forget, Ulfric himself has a court mage so magic is NOT under threat with Ulfric.
Falkreath's default imperial jarl is a corrupt lazy man. It would be a service to the town to remove him. There are also many nationalist nords in the town, which make the town ready to join the stormcloaks.
If the imperials Take Riften Mavan Black briar and the entire Black-briar family gain maximum power available to them in the Rift. Keeping Jarl Laila and her housecarl around is the only thing standing between Mavan black briar and total control.
Riften also has a nord nationalist family which tends the Talos shrine. They would be good for the stormcloaks.
If Riften is aquired by the empire, the thieves guild becomes more powerful due to Mavan controlling the law.
For these reasons, I think a stormcloak Skyrim is both stronger, and less corrupt.
All of what I write in this is what I believe myself in the rights of skyrim. Some things I will agree on with you, but ultimately I think the imperials are more in the right than the stormcloaks. BTW it is Cannon that Tiber Septim became a God, the Elves want the worship outlawed because they are embarrassed at their failure.
Here are some Points I made up.
Hypothesis on what the imperials WERE doing.
The Imperials and the Stormcloaks are united in their desire to make Talos worship a right of every Nord, but the Stormcloaks refuse to admit it. The Imperials only agreed to the ban (that they only rarely or never enforce — only the Thalmor enforce it) as a bargaining chip to end the war with the Elves.
The Stormcloaks are a band of poorly unorganized nords, who just sit around and moan about how they cant worship talos in the open anymore. And instead of attacking the THALMOR Directly (which are few in number ) They decide to attack the Imperials of their own blood. WHY?
The best plan, if the Stormcloaks could actually think for a second, unlike the racists they appear to be, is to become an Imperial, rise up through the ranks, and then sucker-punch the Thalmor with a surprise attack that will shatter their foothold and turn the tide widely into Nord favor. The Stormcloaks should be in support of Imperial efforts, not hampering it with their incessant whining and poorly-organized attacks that only strengthen the Thalmor advantage!
The Stormcloaks are HELPING the Thalmor
The war is only hurting the imperials, which is exactly what the thalmor wants. If the stormcloaks win, then morale in cyrodill will be horribly low, and with their resources nearly gone, the Thalmor can attack and take more land. And in so how would skyrim be able to defend themselves against the Aldemeri Dominion? The Imperials had only Stale-Mated them. The Stormcloaks wouldn't stand a chance.
I know you are thinking "But they beat the imperials, so they could beat the aldemeri dominion." No. The imperials were weakened after the war and were not as powerful as they once were, so they were probably only HALF of what they used to be. So how could the Stormcloaks stand up to a superpower that Made the Imperials step down?
Skyrim would fall shortly after they won.
Let's face it, they don't like Foreigners, which means less people for their army ( Even if they let you join as a different race than nord, you had to go do a very dangerous thing just to get in.) They would be trying to rebuild skyrim, and would be ripe for the picking. So the Aldemeri Dominion would be able to capture Skyrim and get what they wanted all along.
I will be doing Rebuttals NEXT round, as it would be in all fairness with my opponent.
My first argument was a list of pros for a stormcloak Skyrim. Now I will try to refute what my opponent has stated and use some lore.
"The Imperials and the Stormcloaks are united in their desire to make Talos worship a right of every Nord"
I do not agree with that. In the temple of the divines in Solitude, Either Silana Petreia or Freir says that "Tiber septim was a good emperor, but he was not a God" and in "The Talos Mistake" it is clearly shown that Imperials are adopting the idea that Talos isn't a God. So The Imperials are slowly being brainwashed into believing this about Talos.
The stormcloaks know that the The thalmor have infiltrated the empire and empire follows the orders of the Dominion, so THIS is enough for the stormcloaks to fight against them both.
It clearly states there that a stormcloak victory should be avoided.
After re-reading the dossier, it looks as if Ulfric used to be in contact with the thalmor, and no longer is in contact with them. During the quest season unending, Ulfric shows his hatred for Elenwen. However, it is the Dragonborn who is the true leader of Skyrim, not Ulfric. Talos himself was merely a soldier but after conquering tamriel he became emperor. Ulfric is a tool to be used, nothing more.
As I said earlier, there are more nords in the stormcloaks than there are in the legion, so killing off all the stormcloaks and restablishing the legion will weaken skyrim and spread it's soldiers thin, and there will be bad blood within skyrim because of the persecution and Talos worship.
As you know, Hammerfell is fighting the dominion and High rock is the smallest province, and without the empire, High rock would look to skyrim for support. So there, you have a potential alliance or maybe even confederation between High Rock, Hammerfell, and Skyrim, and the actions of the Dragonborn in the "Dragonborn" DLC make me think Morrowind could join in too. Remember, The Dragonborn is potenitally the reincarnation of Tiber Septim/Talos, and is capable of both defeating the dominion with the stormcloaks, and the empire. The only difference is that with the empire, you help kill the true king of skyrim, and with the stormcloaks you help free skyrim and potentially renew the tamriel under a DIFFERENT banner, which, I think, is better than the empire of Cyrodil.
I will only be rebutting in this round as to be fair to my opponent.
Most of your opinion on this prompts me to think that you are a companion yourself. A lot of the reasons you provided dealt with the companions and I suspect that it may in fact be a faction siding. (Not a bad thing) However, if this were into play, I am a member of the thieves guild and from my perspective the Imperials would be better for me and my faction, since Maven Black Briar would be Jarl. I will go more in depth on this point in the Riften argument.
Jarl Balgruff's housecarl is incredibly loyal to him, and is the only one of importance that is of elven descent. She would not lead to betrayal. The Stormcloaks basically forced him to take a side in the war, or get attacked. He is a great example for all Jarls to follow. He is loyal to his hold first, Empire second. If the Stormcloaks hostily took over Whiterun, then it would be a stormcloack tool that replaces the good Jarl, no better than the imperial tool at Falkreath.
Greybeards and Blades
It is Canon that Tiber Septim became a god. Also, the Imperials consist of Nords just as well as Imperials and Bretons (more actually). The Blades were a part of the Empire which also supported Tiber Septim.
We also see bandits killing, raping, pillaging, and even more horrible things to innocent people. These bandits also have Warrior skills. I do not blame the Warrior skills, that is just absurd, as is blaming the Magic for the evil Necromancers.
Nothing much to say really, I said I would agree with you on some stuff. I believe this man is generally lazy and should be replaced with someone who cared more about his people.
The thieves guild is in Riften, and if not for the war than one of the high ranking guards said he would go in the ratway and wipe them out. IF he did this then Nocturnal would lose a lot of her worshipers, and she is one of the few Daedric prince/princesses who is not considered to be inherently evil. The Thieves guild would be lost forever and the Dragonborn would lose a lot of potential experience and REALLY good gear.
-There is no proof that the dragonborn will become high king.
-Ulfric would try to stop it, but ultimately, the Aldemeri dominion, seeing some easy land ripe for the picking would take it.
-And therefore he encourages the outcast of other races which would hinder skyrim, not help it.
-Skooma might not come as easy/hard we would have to see how far the racial segregation goes.
-COULD be made, but why would Hammerfell want to have an alliance with a country that JUST go up off of it's feet?
Now to wrap up, I think that the imperials are better for skyrim than the Stormcloaks are. The leader of the Stormcloaks is power hungry, and can't wait to get more. And even if the Stormcloaks win they are sure to die out soon and be captured by another country. Under imperial rule they at least have a chance to later win.
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||0||5|