The Instigator
nobleislandbag
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Youraverageunicorn
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Students should be allowed to wear clothing with any political message they please.

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Post Voting Period
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It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/8/2017 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 573 times Debate No: 104839
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (13)
Votes (0)

 

nobleislandbag

Pro

People's first amendment rights are being violated by school campuses that believe that some words are not good for their environment.

The first round will be to state the challenger's claim, the second to state all arguments (please no counter arguments yet), the third will be to refute and counter, and the 4th will be a last shot.

Ad hominem not allowed :)
Youraverageunicorn

Con

Thank you for making this debate topic

My claim is that there should be limitations to which political messages are expressed on school grounds.

Please do not forfeit, for that has happened quite a lot recently.

I look forward to your arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
nobleislandbag

Pro

1. The First Amendment gives the right for any citizen to have the liberty of freedom of speech.

The Constitution states that there is to be no law, "abridging the freedom of speech" of citizens. Public schools must abide by governmental regulations and standards, and Constitutional rights apply to every single student in their schools. There should be no trifling of the rules to fit the wants of certain people who may be offended by certain political attire.

2. By drawing a line where something becomes "disruptive" to schools or "changes their school climate", there comes into play a sort of bias.

A 9-year-old boy wore a "Make America Great Again" hat to his school in Fresno, California. Now, California is known to be strongly liberal, and the hat wasn't taken lightly by other students. After three days, the boy was instructed to remove his hat, as other kids were constantly confronting him about it. The district said, "It is...our responsibility to take precautions when the discourse begins to impact our school climate and interrupt school operations".

The problem here is that if a student had come in wearing a Clinton hat, they would not have "interrupted school operations" (which the district exaggerated) and absolutely no doubt would the student not have had to remove their hat. Why should one student be instructed to remove their Clinton hat, but another not to remove their MAGA hat? Why should one student's liberty and right be sacrificed for the sake of the feelings of another?

Thanks for accepting. Just a reminder, no countering until the third round please :D
Youraverageunicorn

Con

Thank you, opponent for your argument.

To start off, I want to drop the bias argument because not only did my opponent not offer evidence for the "Make America Great Again" hat, they also didn't provide evidence for the fact that a student wouldn't be called out for wearing a Clinton shirt, meaning we don't know if a student would be instructed to take off attire that expressed such political messages.

I want to remind everyone that my stance in this debate is to put limitations on what students wear. I don't want to deny student's right to freedom of speech, but vulgar attire could be exposed to students on school grounds which brings me to my first on case argument.

1. Vulgar clothing and/or accessories
K-12 schools usually have a dress code. Used for things like safety. Safety's interpretation is usually physical safety. But it could also be used as mental safety. Without limitations on political messages expressed for K-12 students, students could wear political messages that could trigger a sense of unsafety in a school.

Imagine having a muslim student in your class. One day, you come into class, you see the muslim student, and right next to them is a person wearing a shirt that says: Kill the muslims before they kill us. The muslim student wouldn't feel safe to go to that school anymore.

Other messages such as: Feminists suck, or Gay isn't natural could be emotional triggers and harms the mental health of our students. Things like, Dump Trump is different because it isn't as influential to mental health since it's such a broad statement, and doesn't target people in the way other messages do. I think you get the point.
Although this article isn't about attire, keep in mind use of these beliefs incorporated in clothing still affects students.

https://newrepublic.com...

In conclusion, the right to wear any political statement makes a school environment unsafe for learners.

2. Inappropriate statements
This one is pretty self-explanatory, the right to wear any kind of political statement allows students to have the ability to wear things that are inappropriate for school grounds.
Let me give two examples of inappropriate.
a. If someone wears an anti abortion t shirt, they have the opportunity to wear a picture of a dead baby on their t shirt which is completely unacceptable for people in the K-12 portion of their life, or in general.
b. Someone has the opportunity to wear a message that involves swear words or even sexual content which is inappropriate for the view of students. "Sexual content? How is that tied into political messages?" Someone may want to have a message about things like women's rights and therefore could wear a picture of body exposure on their attire.

My argument isn't about denying freedom of speech, but the political message students want to enforce could be in a more appropriate manner, and we need to protect our students. Keep in mind that my argument isn't about attire from the left or right wing.

I look forward to the next round.
Debate Round No. 2
nobleislandbag

Pro

Although I reminded twice that there would be no countering of my arguments until the third round, my opponent continued to counter me saying, "I want to drop the bias argument." But I'll excuse this.

This bias argument is absolutely viable. Let me elaborate. Us Californians are known to be liberal. Almost everyone in my school dislikes Donald Trump. It's just a mindset people have. Again, my example is hypothetical, but based on rational logic. The Fresno school district says that they won't tolerate clothing that causes a change to their school climate. Now (and this is hardly refutable) the same hate simply is not there against Hillary Clinton. It's very simple logic, and is absolutely reasonable. Clinton causes no commotion, not banned. Trump causes a commotion, banned. Who loses their freedom of speech? The Trump supporter. Bias? Absolutely.

If you choose to ignore this very reasonable hypothetical situation, the same could be said of your examples.

"I want to remind everyone that my stance in this debate is to put limitations on what students wear."

My argument is NOT to allow for students to wear any clothing they desire. Let me address this next quote:

"Someone has the opportunity to wear a message that involves swear words or even sexual content which is inappropriate for the view of students."

Now my claim does not give leeway for students to wear inappropriate clothing such as the ones you stated. If a student comes in wearing a shirt with a nude lady on it, or a dismembered baby, of course the child should remove the shirt. But that kind of political statement is not the type I am defending. The Trump one is one I would defend. The 9 year old (which was not made up, it was a real situation) was ordered to remove his Trump hat even though he was outside of the classroom! I'm not arguing that swear words should be allowed on clothing in school.

Other messages should be allowed. By the way, feelings aren't to be sacrificed for the rights of others. If a student threatens another with the words they express, of course that shouldn't be allowed. But if we shield kids from stating their thoughts, and from stating their opinions just because they are "disruptive", how are we preparing them for the future?
Youraverageunicorn

Con

I was countering your argument, I was explaining that in the future I"m dropping this argument because even though you explained that theory, the school may not like to show any form of politics at the school for people at that age. A lot of schools like to keep politics out. My examples aren"t hypothetical. I provided expedience unlike your example, that actually needed evidence more than mine did.

I announced at the beginning of the debate: "there should be limitations to which political messages are expressed on school grounds."

From what I see you were fine with that. "Students should be allowed to wear any political message they please." Thats your claim and that makes my inappropriate clothing argument, topical. Technically, you"re allowing students to wear ANY political message and it doesn"t just have to be text. It could be a dead baby to represent abortion and it could be a nude lady to represent feminism. Therefore your claim does let children wear such clothing.

Limitations represent things like messages that don"t target other people. Things like, "end racism" and "gay rights" are considered appropriate. But things that would make another student feel unsafe is unacceptable.

Keep in mind my opponent dropped one of my most important arguments: vulgar clothing

And if for some reason the last paragraph was your refute against mine, you"re basically saying that you"ll let people express their opinion, even if it makes student"s feel unsafe in the school. You're telling kids not to care what others think and fight for what you. Believe in. Yes, fight for what you believe in but that doesn"t mean you should hurt others in the process. If you looked at my evidence from the recent round you"d understand why then.
Debate Round No. 3
nobleislandbag

Pro

Again, my argument is NOT to allow students to wear ANY clothing they like. Please don't try to dictate to me what my argument is.

I did not drop the vulgar argument as you say. I stated that vulgar clothing should not be permissible. There is a seperate set of rules that don't allow for vulgar attire to be exposed to minors, and my argument is not to allow students to overstep that. What is closer to what I am arguing for is like the 9 year old who wore a Trump hat, or the students who protested the Vietnam War with their black armbands.

If students are allowed to wear a "gay rights" shirt then someone should be able to wear a "I don't stand with gays" shirt. There was a case where some students wore shirts with the words "white power". I absolutely do not support what they say but they had every right to do so, and the teachers should not have instructed them to remove their shirts.

If a student wears attire specifically aiming to attack a person, that is bullying. That does not fall under the title "political message". A political message is something you believe in and want others to see.

Please excuse this late response.
Youraverageunicorn

Con

You can't change your definition halfway into the debate. The topic is LITERALLY the title of this debate, "Students should be allowed to wear clothing with any political message they please." You said the first round was for people to state their claim and I keep telling you, your argument IS NOT topical to your definition. Any political message can be shown at schools. You can't say there will be rules because that's my counterplan. I clearly stated it in the beginning so halfway through the debate you can't just say there's limitations to student's statements. I'm sorry but everyone can clearly see your claim.

Your vulgar attire argument is pretty weak. If you were allowed to, you said you would offer a separate set of rules for attire, yet you fail to show them. And even if you did, it would have to be at the beginning of the debate which you obviously didn't do.

Attire should have a positive message. Someone should be able to wear a gay rights t shirt because it's not targeting anyone negatively. If someone wears a "I don't stand with gays" t shirt, LGBTQ students would feel unsafe. You can't have a message that offends students. That's not a reputation a school wants to have. A school that doesn't welcome all students.

You agree. If someone wears attire attacking a person, it's bullying. If you don't stand with gays, you're targeting a gay student.

Sure you should express your opinion. But you have to be careful with what you show. Positive messages should be shown and not messages that harm the mental safety of others. You also failed to address my counterplan, so I think we can agree that you like it since you want to put limitations on attire. But I already said that was my counterplan and you already had an initial plan that you didn't continue.
Debate Round No. 4
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by YakovF 8 months ago
YakovF
I know it sounds odd, but your tiny flaws can make a big difference. The whole point of this debate because you should be able to wear any political message. That flaw directly relates to the debate. You probably aren't an SJW, but the rest of your argument was amazing. But realize small things make big differences. Also pro couldn't refute that because you had the last say BTW. You did good, but I would go with tied for grammar and conduct, but he would win convincing arguments. (You would have gotten reliable sources)
Posted by Youraverageunicorn 8 months ago
Youraverageunicorn
MaybeI should have made a better statement than that. I did look back on it. But then you vote for pro just because of that one statement and because I had a tiny flaw in my argument makes no sense. I provided evidence for the way it affects students and pro barely had an argument to refute that.
Posted by YakovF 8 months ago
YakovF
Con was ahead (not by much) and she was about to win, until I saw one thing. I thought she was the person who thought you can wear anything that's not completely radical, violent, or flat out sexuality, until she said this:

"Attire should have a positive message. Someone should be able to wear a gay rights t shirt because it's not targeting anyone negatively. If someone wears a "I don't stand with gays" t shirt, LGBTQ students would feel unsafe. You can't have a message that offends students. That's not a reputation a school wants to have. A school that doesn't welcome all students."

"I don't stand with gays" X00; "I want to kill all gays"

You went under the baised SJW radar until then.

I can't vote, so I'll say here: Winner goes to Pro.
Posted by nobleislandbag 8 months ago
nobleislandbag
Mharman you make some very good points.
I really wish I had a round 5 lol
Posted by Mharman 8 months ago
Mharman
If you can't tell what I'm doing here, I'm using your logic against your own arguments.
Posted by Mharman 8 months ago
Mharman
"Dump Trump is different because it isn't as influential to mental health"

Well, what if it triggers a broad group of people? Are we going to use your logic to ban all "Dump Trump" shirts, or are going to have a double standard?

"since it's such a broad statement, and doesn't target people in the way other messages do."

Dump Trump targets Trump, his political allies, and possibly his supporters. Are you saying those don't count as people?

Also, even if it did target large groups of people, they STILL have a first amendment right to wear the shirt.

Under the First Amendment, people still have a right to wear such shirts, regardless of who it targets.
Posted by Mharman 8 months ago
Mharman
"Feminists suck, or Gay isn't natural could be emotional triggers"

Holy sh!t. this is full SJW here.

If people need trigger warnings, then they're a bunch of pansies.
Posted by Mharman 8 months ago
Mharman
"Attire should have a positive message. Someone should be able to wear a gay rights t shirt because it's not targeting anyone negatively. If someone wears a "I don't stand with gays" t shirt, LGBTQ students would feel unsafe. You can't have a message that offends students. That's not a reputation a school wants to have. A school that doesn't welcome all students."

"You agree. If someone wears attire attacking a person, it's bullying. If you don't stand with gays, you're targeting a gay student."

My God you're such a cuck
Posted by Youraverageunicorn 8 months ago
Youraverageunicorn
Haha okay
Posted by nobleislandbag 8 months ago
nobleislandbag
nevermind it worked
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