The Instigator
HannaChoi
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
idonotbelievey0u
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points

Suicide because of bullying is more unacceptable than bullying itself.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
idonotbelievey0u
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/24/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,128 times Debate No: 49778
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (17)
Votes (1)

 

HannaChoi

Pro

I have made this debate impossible to accept (or at least I think I did). Please leave a comment if you wish to compete. Or if it didn't work for me, feel free to just accept it! :)

I will be saying "yes, Suicide because of bullying is more unacceptable than bullying itself" It is immoral and a stupid thing to do and society should focus more on 'stop suicide' instead of 'stop bullying'

In this case the definition of
1. suicide: Killing oneself because of others who bully them/depression.
2. unacceptable: immoral, stupid, socially unacceptable and should be more focused on in comparison to bullying. ie society should say: "Bullying is bad, suicide is worse"
3. bullying: Can be bullying to any extent or the average 'high-school' bully.

Please try to keep each round over 1500 characters if possible. :)

I'll start off:

Bullying is something that will never be resolved. It will always be there because there can be no happiness without sadness. To know what happiness is, you must understand what [emotional] pain is. By killing yourself because of all the insults, you are simply saying to yourself that you don't deserve happiness. You are saying to yourself that you are weak and undeserving of life.
Bullying is like every other thing in life. Everyone will go through something bad in their life, something horrible. No matter who you are. Rich, poor, black, white, girl, boy, everyone will go through something bad!
Life isn't perfect and it'll never be and to think that you are deserving of a better life means that you are just attention seeking and pathetic and weak. To take your own life because of the tragedies you've suffered mean you are selfish and uncaring for all the people you are going to hurt. To think that you are the only one's who's ever suffered means you are stupid and purely self-centered
idonotbelievey0u

Con

Thank you for inviting me :D
So let's start ( anyways I will just do more COPY PASTE OF WHAT I SAID but I'll refrain from being personal as well)

Suicide is taking away one's life, but in your topic, through BULLYING.
What is exactly BULLYING?
According to Wikipedia:
Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively impose domination over others. The behavior is often repeated and habitual. One essential prerequisite is the perception, by the bully or by others, of an imbalance of social or physical power. Behaviors used to assert such domination can include verbal harassment or threat, physical assault or coercion, and such acts may be directed repeatedly towards particular targets. Justifications and rationalizations for such behavior sometimes include differences of class, race, religion, gender, sexuality, appearance, behavior, body language, personality, reputation, lineage, strength, size or ability.

Your definition of bullying was unsatisfactory.

The human body may take physical pains but emotional problems are critically dangerous to the one"s psychological aspect. And this psychological aspect I am referring is highly connected to one's thinking process and may lead to DEATH.
If that is not dangerous hannachoi I don't know what it is.

Moving on, suicide because of bullying takes away one"s life and may encourage others to do the same.
Now you may say that this is what makes "suicide because of bullying" more unacceptable.
But it only proves how DANGEROUS, CRITICAL, DESTRUCTIVE and more UNACCEPTABLE bullying is.

Generally speaking, one will not honestly kill his or her own self if he/she is not BULLIED.

Can you see the impact brought by bullying?
Suicide is not only the result of bullying. Isolation and being anti-social may occur. Anger may develop deep inside and one may not be able to connect to his/her own family. There are more results of BULLYING.

To wrap up, in life nothing is absolute, cases like BULLYING can never be stopped.
SUICIDE is not the right solution but that doesn't give suicide because of bullying the edge to be more unacceptable than bullying itself. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
HannaChoi

Pro

You said that bullying can damage one's psychological aspect and can lead to thinking about suicide or actual suicide. But the ‘thinking’ happens in the ‘victim’s’ brain. A lot of people have been bullied throughout their lives including me and everyone at some point will think or have thought of suicide as a way out. The rational people will say "Hey. I'm stronger than this. I will NOT kill myself!" and irrational people...you know.


There are a lot of factors that contribute to bullying, yes, but no matter how bad your life is, you should not take it. It will hurt more people in the long run and yes, it will encourage others to do the same. 'Encourage' being the key word. Society also encourages people to kill themselves. 'Victims' of suicide want attention, they want to be loved and cared for, called beautiful and have celebrities talk about them. What society is saying is that if you kill yourself, all those things will happen. All of a sudden, celebrities will start talking about you, people will say "oh, she was so pretty" and "I wish I was her friend!" The problem is, you'll be dead and what people will truly feel is pity. They’ll pity how weak you were and how you might not have done it if there were someone with you. They pity how you thought of yourself in such a degrading way and how you couldn't stand up to some name-callers.

The point I am trying to make is that society focusestoo much on bullying and not enough on suicide itself resulting in a giving suicide a positive look. It makes suicide seem almost alluring. If you kill yourself, all the pain will go away…

The focus on bullying should die down alot and the focus on the negatives of taking one's life should be looked into. Bullying is one of thecauses of suicide. We should focus on the problem at hand, not just one of the causes. If there were a disease, you would try to treat to the disease itself, not the symptoms, right?

The thought of suicide is all in a person’s mind. Bullying is just a helping hand. No one can plant thoughts in your brain and make you do something. Suicide is a choice. It is an option. For some people it’s a way out. To escape their misery; because their misery is the most important thing in the world. More important than the feelings of their friends, their family, just people around them who knows them. They are thinking, “People have done it before so why can’t I do it?”
The only people who benefit from suicide is themselves.

To conclude, the thought of suicide crosses everyone’s mind sometime but most people are strong and make sure they can pull through. But others will think of suicide as something great, they’ll see it as freedom because nobody calls it ‘an unacceptable thing to do, a pathetic and weak thing to do’. Bullying may be the cause of suicide, but no one can make you do something. Suicide is an option.

idonotbelievey0u

Con

My dear opponent, I just want to remind you that our topic should focus more on "SUICIDE BECAUSE OF BULLYING" not suicide itself.

You mentioned many things in your second paragraph (you were able to mention few things about factors and "encourage") but those OTHER points (where you mentioned PITY and many more), you were not able to expand and support your argument concerning our debate topic.

Moving on,
According to you, no matter how bad one's life is he should not take it (bullying). How sure are you that all of those "victims" can manage to be strong? Research proves that even adults have hard time in defending themselves against bullying.

Doesn't that show how bullying already crossed the line and how more unacceptable it is even for older people? I mean, in the state of the world we are living in, BULLYING is everywhere, in the streets, in school, in offices of large and small companies and even at home, this is very visible around us and even to anyone who is reading this cannot deny that point.

You mentioned this, "The point I am trying to make is that society focuses too much on bullying and not enough on suicide itself"."
EXACTLY, because society thinks BULLYING is more unacceptable.

You continued, "Resulting in a giving suicide a positive look. It makes suicide seem almost alluring. If you kill yourself, all the pain will go away""
HOW EFFECTIVE IS THAT POINT? HAVE YOU SHOWN ON THAT?? Just because society prioritizes BULLYING instead of "suicide because of bullying" doesn't mean it gives suicide a positive look, right?

I mean, if you have a disease and you focus too much on the reasons of your disease not on the disease itself, do you give the disease a POSITIVE look? OF COURSE NOT! You may ask, "Why would I focus on the reasons of my disease?"
Well, to avoid having the same disease by knowing and avoiding its factors.

In your analogy, " We should focus on the problem at hand, not just one of the causes. If there were a disease, you would try to treat to the disease itself, not the symptoms, right?"
You were trying to say that the disease is the SUICIDE and the symptom is BULLYING.

YOU KNOW SYMPTOMS ARE NOT THE CAUSES OF A DISEASE RIGHT? I mean, if you have a fever, a symptom for DENGUE, does that mean the fever is a cause for Dengue?

I know SUICIDE because of bullying is a BIG PROBLEM but you're wrong, the problem at hand is not that, it is BULLYING. The world's major problem right now is BULLYING wherein kids tend to push themselves to give up or fight back, this is very evident everywhere, just like what I mentioned in my 4th paragraph.

Of course someone or something can PUSH you to do something. When you're tired and sleepy and you don't want to study, yet you still PUSH yourself to study because of your exams your school implemented, doesn't it show that VICTIMS ARE BEING FORCED to do things they think they can but deep inside them, they don't want to.

RELATING TO "SUICIDE BECAUSE OF BULLYING"

Suicide in that case is not a CHOICE it is an EFFECT.

Why would somebody commit suicide if he/she is not bullied? Of course victims wanted to escape their own misery, others just commit suicide, but why? IT IS BECAUSE OF THE "MISERY", it is because of bullying.

HOW DOES ONE PERSON BENEFIT FROM SUICIDE? Is it because he/she can escape this cruel world?

To wrap up, it is very hard to escape bullying. ALL OF US HAVE OUR OWN CHOICE and OUR OWN DECISIONS, but we won't come to think of something like that if it is not BECAUSE OF SOMETHING. Suicide is a choice, but SUICIDE BECAUSE OF BULLYING is not a CHOICE, it is an EFFECT. You my friend, if you are not bullied, would you kill yourself?
Debate Round No. 2
HannaChoi

Pro

The topic is "Suicide because of bullying is more unacceptable than bullying itself." I was saying bullying only plays a part in a suicide and that bullies CANNOT plant the thought of suicide into another's head. The main reason they want to commit suicide is NOT because of bullying but because of the 'reward' they think they can gain from it. That is why suicide is more unacceptable. It's not 100% (not even 70%) the bully's fault.

My rebuttals:
You said: "How sure are you that all of those "victims" can manage to be strong? Research proves that even adults have hard time in defending themselves against bullying." Yes, they do have a hard time defending themselves but they still don't commit suicide. Why? Because they're strong. Research didn't prove that adults suicide as well.

I agree, bullying is everywhere. But that's the problem. There are bullies everywhere you go (you said: "in the streets, in school, in offices of large and small companies and even at home") So if bullying is EVERYWHERE, why are we working so hard to stop it? There aren't as many cases of suicide so why don't we work on that instead? To let it prioritize over bullying?
If our goal was to stop suicide, to show people how bad it is, how much worse than bullying it is, then people will start to listen and the amounts of suicides will drop dramatically. If we stopped making a big deal and feeling sorry for those who've already killed themselves, people will see that suicide will no longer make others feel the way they want them to feel and that they won't make a huge difference in our world, they'll think twice about it. And wouldn't that also make a change in bullying? The bullies won't get the same reactions they want so the amount of bullying will also drop.

"Society thinks BULLYING is more unacceptable." Key word being 'thinks'. Society should make SUICIDE more unacceptable.

"Just because society prioritizes BULLYING instead of "suicide because of bullying" doesn't mean it gives suicide a positive look, right?"
Society is giving suicide a positive look by feeling sorry for the people who committed suicide. Everyone feels sorry for that person including all the celebrities. Who wouldn't want celebrities to talk about them? The reason society makes suicide seem positive is by focusing TOO much on bullying and not ENOUGH on suicide. So little, that people think it's OK to do it. If we changed it around so that we prioritize suicide, more and more people will frown upon it and the suicide numbers will drop.

"if you have a disease and you focus too much on the reasons of your disease not on the disease itself, do you give the disease a POSITIVE look?" I was comparing bullying to symptoms of a disease. Besides, people today focuses on curing the disease itself anyway. If someone had cancer, you would remove the tumour causing it instead of constantly giving that person pain killers for the pain, right? Bullying is causing pain but suicide is the deciding blow.

You compared suicide to forced study because of exams and you said "but deep inside them, they don't want to." That is wrong. Deep inside, people want to commit suicide (and want to get good grades, but that off topic). Suicide is an option. No one can make you do anything. Drugs is an option, homicide is an option, to argue is an option. EVERYTHING IS AN OPTION.
If someone were holding a gun to your head and told you to give you all your money, you still have a choice. To die or not to die. To scream? To fight? To 'emergency call' the police? You will always have a choice. Bullying + misery does not = suicide. In most cases, it will equal a stronger person. A person who can take any insult and yet not be harmed by it. A person who will eventually get tired of the harassment and will eventually tell the bullies to STOP.

Points:
Like I've said before, suicide is an option as are many other things. It is a choice a person makes when they feel like they have been completely destroyed. Some people will take drugs to fill the emptiness. They both do it because of misery by why is one more frowned upon than another? Of course, one is more fatal but what if the reasons are exactly the same? Say, both people are doing it because someone at school is harassing them. Why is a person who takes drugs called an 'drug abuser' while someone who suicides is called a 'victim of suicide'. 'Abuser' and 'victim' but both for the exact same reasons. Why?

The people who commit suicide need to understand that life is unfair. You will not always get what you want in life and that is something you have to deal with, not run away from. People understand that at different stages of their lives. They might understand that when a close relative dies or from what they see in movies or from experience i.e. being bullied. Life is unfair. That is a fact and people who commit want suicide need to understand. Some of them refuses to understand and kills themselves anyway. That is what is unacceptable. They think they are the only people who have ever suffered, they don't care that there may be people suffering worse. They think their life must be perfect and if it's not, there's no point in living (to clarify: the 'imperfection' being bullying).
Although bullying may be terrible, the thought of suicide happens all in the victim's head. They think they deserve better than everyone else and because they don't have it, they kill themselves. That is why suicide is more unacceptable than bullying.

"You my friend, if you are not bullied, would you kill yourself?" No, I wouldn't. And if I were bullied (which I have been) I STILL wouldn't kill myself.

Sources from youtube video by @ rob dyke
idonotbelievey0u

Con

Bullies don't plant the thought but they expand it and they PUSH it. My point is, the victim only thinks of SUICIDE at first yet BULLYING just enhances the idea of death and escape, it just proves that if bullying is stopped immediately, of course the victims will not push themselves in suicide .

Are we blaming the victims for committing suicide? Of course not! If a girl did commit suicide, it is because she can't take it, it is because BULLYING is already out of hand and just proves that it is really more unacceptable.

YOU MENTIONED ABOUT A REWARD they'll get from it? PLEASE SPECIFY.

It is estimated that 160,000 children miss school every day due to fear of attack or intimidation by other students. Source: National Education Association.
282,000 students are physically attacked in secondary schools each month.
71% of students report incidents of bullying as a problem at their school.
(http://www.makebeatsnotbeatdowns.org...)

That does not show suicide but a minor cause of BULLYING. Even in that simple way (of not hurting themselves), doesn't that show the great impact of BULLYING to the children?

How sure are you that adults can't manage BULLYING.
Bullying Caused Women"s Suicide, Inquiry Told.
That article talks about the death of a woman caused by BULLYING in her workplace.
(http://antibullyingcrusador.wordpress.com...)
We cannot deny the point that BULLYING already caused SUICIDE to adults, there are more incidents about that.

You rebutted my point that bullying is everywhere by saying, " So if bullying is EVERYWHERE, why are we working so hard to stop it? "

IT IS BECAUSE BULLYING IS MORE UNACCEPTABLE. Why aren't we stopping SUICIDE? (you mentioned that before)
Because the WORLD presumes BULLYING to be very severe and something that must be stopped. We can't question that point?
YOU KNOW WHY? THAT IS REALITY. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING AROUND US even though it's very hard to change and ACCEPT that.

REMEMBER you said, " So if bullying is EVERYWHERE, why are we working so hard to stop it? " and you said, "Bullying is something that will never be resolved. ". You showed a little contradiction to your point. Anyways, we are indeed WORKING HARD to stop BULLYING. Is there any progress? If bullying is not MORE UNACCEPTABLE there would be at least an improvement.

Why are professionals making seminars about BULLYING? Not about SUICIDE BECAUSE OF BULLYING? Another evident example of how bullying overpowers its effects.

IN THE SECOND PARAGRAPH OF MY OPPONENT'S REBUTTAL,
my opponent was not able to STICK to the topic and to the argument
Our argument is "Suicide because of bullying is more unacceptable than bullying itself." And we should argue more on how Suicide because of bullying is MORE UNACCEPTABLE than BULLYING itself, or the other way around. Not on what we should DO to stop bullying and suicide.

"Society should make SUICIDE more unacceptable.", how effective is that point?
I mean, if society made Suicide more unacceptable, how? By showing how severe the effects of suicide is? By showing how bad it is? Doesn't that show how WORSE BULLYING is?? That because of bullying, suicide is taking place. That if there is LESS bullying, there will be LESS suicides?

"Society is giving suicide a positive look by feeling sorry for the people who committed suicide." WHAT? Are you saying that if you are sick and I feel sorry that you are sick, does that mean your sickness is a positive thing for me? I don't think so.
Your point is repeating, Society does not give SUICIDE a positive look just because it prioritizes bullying. Pity does not give a positive outlook to the DISEASE.

"So little, that people think it's OK to do it.", sorry my dear opponent but you are making a Debate Fallacy. Just because you proved that everyone knows how to pity such thing, does not mean everyone gives that thing a POSITIVE look and everyone thinks that is okay. I pity you when you are sick, do you think it is alright for me to be sick as well?

" I was comparing bullying to symptoms of a disease." EXACTLY, I know you meant that, but your analogy of CAUSE and EFFECT was wrong. You can't have the symptoms to be the cause of the disease.

"Bullying is causing pain but suicide is the deciding blow." BULLYING is the one that caused the pain and the deciding blow.

I guess you misunderstood my analogy, what I meant is that they don't want to STUDY at that moment, I did not mention anything of NOT having good grades.

"Deep inside, people want to commit suicide"
Why? Why would they commit suicide in the first place? What is that thing that pushes them to do suicide, what is that thing that gave them the idea of committing suicide? Isn't it bullying?

Just like what I said, Suicide is indeed an option, but suicide because of bullying (OUR MAIN ISSUE HERE) is an effect, that's why we have the conjunction "because". Drug is an option? But how about "drugs because of medications" isn't that an effect?

I am not saying that we don't have a choice, just like what I said in my previous argument, we all have our own choices and decisions, but what do you think pushed us to do such thing? What do you think made us fight? Is it only our choice to fight? As a debater and as the CONS of this argument, I am not taking away our rights to have our own choices, I just want to prove that there are times that things won't go the way we planned, there will be a time that we will be pushed to do such thing, and to make that choice and the choice I mentioned is the effect of what we've felt under the control of fear and danger.

"Say, both people are doing it because someone at school is harassing them. Why is a person who takes drugs called an 'drug abuser' while someone who suicides is called a 'victim of suicide'. 'Abuser' and 'victim' but both for the exact same reasons. ", I am not arguing about the difference between victim of suicide and drugs abuser but to defend my point and TO STICK TO OUR TOPIC (very necessary), both of them are victims of harassment, right? Isn't it a type of bullying? I mean, they both experienced depression that's why they did such thing.
Doesn't that show how MORE UNACCEPTABLE BULLYING is? If not, then you should have said that Drugs because of bullying is also more unacceptable than bullying itself. At the end of the day, the choice the abuser made is still the EFFECT of bullying which is very unacceptable.

"The people who commit suicide need to understand that life is unfair", and to think that life is unfair is because life is not treating them well right? And it is because of our society right? To relate to our issue, life being unfair is the result of BULLYING.

" Some of them refuses to understand and kills themselves anyway. That is what is unacceptable. "
What's unacceptable is the BULLYING they experienced that made them REFUSE TO UNDERSTAND AND KILL THEMSELVES.

"Although bullying may be terrible, the thought of suicide happens all in the victim's head. "
And the thought of suicide you are talking about is also caused by bullying.

You may say that I focus too much on BULLYING being a CAUSE but it can't be stopped. I know, it can't be stopped, but what's the use of these these seminars and life lessons? Lessons that prove how MORE UNACCEPTABLE BULLYING is.

You answered NO to my question, which proves that bullying is indeed an effect. But you countered it back with " And if I were bullied (which I have been) I STILL wouldn't kill myself.", that is YOU. That is your OWN decision, just like what I mentioned again we have our own choices which is the EFFECT of our own situation.

SUICIDE is very bad and unacceptable, but how much more is BULLYING? People come up to different kinds of resulted decisions, they tend to make things they don't really have to do, overall, it is because of what we call BULLYING.
Debate Round No. 3
HannaChoi

Pro

Rebuttals:
Of course bullies can push an idea but that's all it is. An idea. There's a huge difference between 'an idea' and actually going through with it. You said "BULLYING just enhances the idea of death and escape". By saying that, you are just proving what society is doing. Focusing so little on suicide that it almost seems positive. Escape is what everyone wants; to have no bounds and to be free. Society is saying 'if you kill yourself, you'll be free'. That is why suicide is more unacceptable than bullying. People make it seem like a positive thing when it's actually alotworse than bullying.

"Are we blaming the victims for committing suicide? Of course not!" Why not? Why do we blame people for using drugs when they are in depression but not blame people who suicide because of depression? People who take drugs were also 'pushed' to do it. They don't do it for no reason either. Why do we blame murderers for killing people? Studies have shown (from previous notorious murderers) that most murders kill people because they had an abusive childhood and grew up with pain. If we don't blame people who suicide fortaking their own lives, we shouldn't blame a murderer for taking another's lives either, right? I mean, both outcomes are the same: death. Both reasons are also the same: pain, misery, etc. The only difference between the two is a the choice of life. Victims of a murderer do not have a choice but people who suicide do. That is why suicide should take priority. The show people that thereisa choice.

"YOU MENTIONED ABOUT A REWARD they'll get from it? PLEASE SPECIFY." I have. The reward they get is: people noticing them, celebrities talking about them, people calling them pretty or saying they wish they were their friend and the opportunity to make the bullies feel bad.

(your paragraph 4 - 6) According to UNICEF,millionsof children can't evenattendschool. Of course many people report incidents of bullying but hardly anyone reports incidents of suicide. That's because people arestrongerthan that and don't let the bullies get to them.
Adults understand the fairness of life better than children, which is why the amounts of suicide is much less. If we were to focus on stopping SUICIDE, the amounts will become lesser still. Adults would want to set a better example to their children and will tell them that suicide is not OK. The problem is, WE ARE NOT DOING THAT! We all are focusing on how bullying is not OK but not a lot of people are listening. We have to send a different message out, one that will truly have an impact on people. "Suicide is not OK. Here are the reasons why..."

"...even though it's very hard to change ..." If it's [bullying] hard to change, shouldn't we try to change something that is easierto change? Something that will make more of a difference?
People are trying in vain to get the bullying message out with a progress that is much too slow. the 'REALITY' is suicide andthatis what we should focus on.
Yes, there will be an improvement if we focus on bullying but it is happening much too slowly. Bullyissomething that will never be resolved and itiseverywhere which iswhywe shouldn't focus so much on it.

"...my opponent was not able to STICK to the topic and to the argument..." I'm sorry but I disagree with this. Here is where 'ideas' and 'action' comes back into play. For me to make the claim "Suicide because of bullying is more unacceptable than bullying itself." I must come up with a possible solution for it.

"if society made Suicide more unacceptable, how? By showing how severe the effects of suicide is? ...Doesn't that show how WORSE BULLYING is?" The effects of suicide isencouragementof suicide. If one person did it, wouldn't that encourage others to do the same? Wouldn't they think "Why can they do it but I cannot?" It also has an impact on family but I will get on with that later.

"...if you are sick and I feel sorry that you are sick, does that mean your sickness is a positive thing..." I was making the comparison of sickness and symptoms to bullying, not suicide. Your comparisons are illogical and not well used because I have already said that by 'feeling sorry for' means having celebrities talk about you, have people call you beautiful, etc.
Society in general is focusing so little on suicide that people don't understand the seriousness of it.
"You can't have the symptoms to be the cause of the disease." That is exactly what I'm arguing. Bullying is NOT the cause of suicide.

"...you misunderstood my analogy..." Yes, I believe I did misunderstand. No one studies if they don't want good grades.

"What is that thing that pushes them to do suicide, what is that thing that gave them the idea of committing suicide? Isn't it bullying?" No it is not bullying. It's what they think, what goes on in their heads. They think their misery is the most important thing in the world and that they deserve happiness (which I believe they do but my point is suicide-because-you-don't-have-happiness is unacceptable). Also, you shot yourself in the foot with "what is that thing that gave them the idea of committing suicide?" because your first sentence was "Bullies don't plant the thought..."

I'm sorry but I do not understand your use of the word 'effect' when you say '...but suicide because of bullying is an effect" (By drugs, I meant the illegal ones, not medications)

(Your paragraph 20:I am not saying that we don't have a choice...) My answer to that is we will always have a choice. And not only a choice but a wide range of choices. It's not "fight or die". The world is not in black and white. We could run, fight, seek help, revenge; the choices can go on and on and if something doesn't go planned, come up with a plan yourself. Isn't that what we do in debating? If we weren't expecting the opponent to say something, wouldn’t we come up with a plan (on the spot) to rebut them?

(Your very next paragraph) How am I not sticking to the topic? I am saying: both victims of suicide and drugs abusers do those things for the same reason but people make a bigger deal about the drug abuser.
Life will always be unfair no matter what situation and with people who suicide not understanding that is UNACCEPTABLE.

(My rebuttal to the next few paragraphs) You cannot plant a thought in another's head.
People talk about bullying (seminars) because that's what society is telling them to do (also paying them to do). If they can persuade people to stop bullying, they must be able to stop suicides.

My answer to your question was to tell you (or anyone else reading this) that I am a strong person and if I chose otherwise, it would make me weak.

Point:
Suicide is unacceptable. Even more so than bullying because bullying tends to affect one person in general. Suicide, however, affects many more. (I've already talked about encouraging others) It affects family members and friends. Of course, those people will probably blame it on the bully but {off topic} that's the problem with us. We tend to blame things on people too much. We fill our lives with so much hate that we can't see the fault on the other side. Not many people think 'she should have been stronger than this' or 'she should have fought' or 'it's partially her fault as well' {back on topic}. To not blame the person you loved is being in denial. Close people who suicide makes them feel depression, anger, hate and denial. Those feelings will haunt themforeverno matter what age they are. Bullying will make people feel disappointed and cause hate in the general public but the feelings suicide can cause is much worse than that. If one of my friends killed herself because of bullies, (beside my hate for the bullies) I would honestly feel disappointed that she wasn't strong enough. I would also feel sadness/emptiness/depression for the rest of my life. And I only got these ideas from movies/books that describelosinga family member (not to bullying).

idonotbelievey0u

Con

"By saying that, you are just proving what society is doing. Focusing so little on suicide that it almost seems positive."
Society is making BULLYING to be more unacceptable and I did not say anything about making suicide positive. If you were paying attention to some of my previous points my dear opponent, I mentioned that focusing to much on something does not give another a positive look. Your arguments are not that effective since giving more attention to BULLYING, we don't give suicide a positive look. For the victim's perspective, suicide is the solution. They think that it is the"good" solution but they also know that it is NOT the "right" solution. We all know the difference between GOOD and RIGHT. And we all come to think between the WRONG and RIGHT solution. When there is a problem, we tend to think for a solution, and of course we BRAINSTORM for POSSIBLE solutions, if you were able to think of one, does it mean to be CORRECT immediately? We are being PUSHED to think that it is CORRECT because of our situation (for our topic's case, because of BULLYING) which just proves how unacceptable that situation might be.

To further support my stand, DEPRESSION is caused by BULLYING right? Research proves depression can mean just being in low spirits. It doesn't stop you leading your normal life, but makes everything harder to do and seem less worthwhile. At its most severe, major depression can be life-threatening (http://www.mind.org.uk...). It also proves that the mind cannot focus much and think well during depression wherein the solutions the victim can think might be the wrong remedy, that once again proves the dangers of BULLYING.

" Society is saying 'if you kill yourself, you'll be free'. That is why suicide is more unacceptable than bullying."
NO, BULLYING is more unacceptable because it MAKES society say that if one kills himself he will be free. Which is not a benefit. BULLYING makes our world a terrible place and makes the people think terrible, that is unacceptable right? But it does not give the edge to be more unacceptable than bullying itself, and I was able to mention WHY from my previous arguments in the past rounds.

People blame drug-abusers for taking drugs, but shouldn't we focus AGAIN on blaming the cause? Blaming depression which pushed them to do so, take note, PUSHED them, which they will not actually do if they were not forced in the first place. In the 3rd round you said that,
" Besides, people today focuses on curing the disease itself anyway. If someone had cancer, you would remove the tumor causing it instead of constantly giving that person pain killers for the pain, right? " HOW DO WE GET TO CURE THE DISEASE without CURING IT'S CAUSES? If you analogized the tumor to BULLYING, the tumor caused the disease (suicide) that's why we are getting rid of it. And you were agreeing on my side.

"Victims of a murderer do not have a choice but people who suicide do. That is why suicide should take priority. The show people that thereisa choice.", of course victims of murder have a choice but whatever their choice may be it is because of their own situation, to fight back? To call the cops? To give up? Aren't these choices BECAUSE they are in that situation? I agree there is a choice, but the point I am trying to make is we won't choose that choice if it is not because of how TERRIBLE and more UNACCEPTABLE our situation is.

"I have. The reward they get is: people noticing them, celebrities talking about them, people calling them pretty or saying they wish they were their friend and the opportunity to make the bullies feel bad.", Are you serious my dear opponent?! In the first place, people don't commit suicide to have THOSE rewards. If someone killed herself because of BULLYING it is because she doesn't want people to NOTICE her but to ESCAPE her misery. And that is not a reward, that is PITY, is PITY a reward? No! If bullying made bullies feed bad, why isn't it stopping even though cases of SUICIDE are enormous?
" Of course many people report incidents of bullying but hardly anyone reports incidents of suicide. " EXACTLY, because BULLYING is more unacceptable.

Of course we can tell our children how bad suicide is but we should also tell them how WORSE bullying is. That if we told them that bullying causes these and those and told them a bully's perspective, of course they'll avoid bullying. All we can do is just avoid the cause of them being a bully and of them being bullied. How? Of course ethics, morals, guidance and more.

In your 5th paragraph, you are agreeing that BULLYING is more unacceptable than SUICIDE. How? You said the "easier to change" is suicide, am I right? Which proves how hard BULLYING is and how more unacceptable it is. You mentioned that bullying's improvement is slow which agrees to my point.

That's the risk of SUGGESTING solutions, it's a slippery slope situation. And how effective are those solutions, how effective can they be to drop the cases of suicide dramatically? In our world today, in our society and the way it treats BULLYING, I doubt.

Bullying encourages others to bully someone or other people, which then increases suicide. "If he can bully that girl, it means I can bully that boy too". That proves bullying is indeed more unacceptable.
Celebrities talking about you is not POSITIVE. It is even worse because they negatively talk about how MISERABLE the victim's life was because of bullying, is that positive? I don't think so.

"That is exactly what I'm arguing. Bullying is NOT the cause of suicide." BULLYING is the cause of suicide. That is a fact and you can't question that. SO, to relate to our topic, what caused suicide then if not bullying? Choice? Then what led them to that choice? Of course it's BULLYING.

"Also, you shot yourself in the foot with "what is that thing that gave them the idea of committing suicide?" because your first sentence was "Bullies don't plant the thought..." What I meant to the first question was BULLYING which gave them the idea. BULLIES do not plant the thought. The doer does not plant the thought but the the action, that is if you were paying attention to my arguments.

"which I believe they do but my point is suicide-because-you-don't-have-happiness is unacceptable", you should have changed the debate title then.

" come up with a plan yourself. Isn't that what we do in debating?" EXACTLY, we plan BECAUSE we want to win, we wan't to prove something right or wrong. That's exactly why our choices are effects." I chose to eat cause I'm hungry. I chose to debate cause I want to prove something, I chose suicide cause of bullying which pushes me."
you said " If they can persuade people to stop bullying, they must be able to stop suicides.", EXACTLY, persuade to stop bullying because it is more unacceptable than suicide.

To wrap up, bullying does not affect ONE person in general. It affects the bullies and the witnesses around them. BULLYING affects more than suicide. The fear it gives to the victims and to the witnesses, the negative confidence it gives to the bullies and to other superiors, the depression it causes that disconnects FAMILY and distracts education and society and the painful reality it proves about our world. There's nothing RIGHT about being WEAK but why is that it is very hard to fight against bullying? Why are others STRUGGLING to fight back, while others GIVE UP? Don't you think it is because of how SEVERE BULLYING IS? If one of my friends killed himself, of course I would be disappointed to the same reason of yours but I would be MORE disappointed to why BULLYING EXISTS. It always breaks my heart to think that EVEN BULLIES DID NOT MEAN TO HURT OTHERS BUT THEY STILL DO. Why? It goes back to the bully's ENVIRONMENT.
BULLYING EXISTS, that's the PAINFUL "FACT", and we can't stop it. If we can stop SUICIDE not BULLYING, doesn't that show how more unacceptable BULLYING is?
Debate Round No. 4
HannaChoi

Pro

Rebuttals:
You said "For the victim's perspective, suicide is the solution" What is stopping this thought? No one wants to stop you because it’s not important. The fact that 'society' is focusingso littleon it makes it seem positive—No one will stop you from suicide because 'it's no big thing'. And I've already said, you'll have celebrities talking about you, people calling you pretty, etc. I did notonly say “by focusing so much on bullying, suicide seems positive.” I gave a heap of reasons more.
Also, you keep shooting yourself in the foot. Yes, people think suicide is the RIGHT solution andthat's the problem. We need to tell them that it is WRONG. We need to tell them how unacceptable it is and how it’llnever be the right solution.

There are many people suffering depression and yet they still don't kill themselves. The kind of depression they suffer can be much worse than being bullied. For example, the death of someone close. Maybe that someone killed themselves becausethey were depressed from bullying. Losing someone, (for example a mother losing a child) is probably the worse feelings anyone can get. It can be so overwhelming that they would kill themselves too. THAT proves suicide [from bullying] to be more unacceptable. Not only are you killing yourself, you are also making others want to kill themselves too just so they can be with you.


"BULLYING is more unacceptable because it MAKES society say that if one kills himself he will be free" So shouldn't we change that message? If bullying 'makes' society say that, shouldn't we work on changing the message? Shouldn't we prioritize suicide so that the message says "If you're going to kill yourself, think about the people you will hurt. They lives you will destroy…"?

{Paragraph 4} We blame people who take drugs because theychose to take drugs. That is why be should blame people who suicide because theychose to do it. However, we are not doing that and we are not setting a moral ground for it. Again, we are focusing so little on it that people think it's not actually wrong. [Before you rebut, my explanation] Our world focuses on how bad drugs are so peopleknow it's bad. If we show people how bad suicide is, they willknow it's bad too and will decide against it.

"HOW DO WE GET TO CURE THE DISEASE without CURING IT'S CAUSES?" I said nothing about bullying being the cause. In fact, I was saying the exact opposite. I was comparing bullying to symptoms and by treating to symptoms, it will make no difference on the disease. The cause of suicide is not bullying. It is the person's thinking that causes it. If they think they're strong, however, they will not suicide. Further explanation later.

In your fifth paragraph, you did not provide a proper explanation to the point you were trying to make. But I shall elaborate on the point I tried to make. Victims of amurdererdo not have a choice because they would not have seen it coming (as long as the murderer's smart and clean) but if someone were holding a gun to your head and told you to give them all your money, you do have a choice. Please do not twist my words.

{6th} People want to be loved and to be noticed. The thing society is saying (by paying almost no [bad] attention to suicides) is that if you kill yourself, you will get all of that. Why? Because of everyone who's killed themselves before. They got all the attention, everyone talking about them, everyone loving them. When Amanda Todd made her video, she was looking for attention (not in a bad way) and she got it. People want to be loved and accepted and they think suicide is the only way to get it. However, that is not what they get. That is what society makes them think they will get (more later). Weneedto tell them that it is UNACCEPTABLE.
You did not explain your last sentence properly.


"Suicide is bad but bullying is worse" The message I see from this is "Bullying is much worse than suicide so it's OK to do it if you're bullied." Wecantry to avoid bullying but that is not working. We must focus on suicide and tell people how unacceptable it is. “If you suicide, you will ruin the lives of those around you, make them feel pain thatyou'venever felt before..."
Your reasoning for stopping bullying (ethics, morals, etc) does not work. We are taught all those things already and the progress is much too slow.

I do not understand your 8th paragraph. I said that it is easier to stop suicide than to stop bullying because, let's face it, we are progressing much too slowly.
If we tell people to be strong, that we love them, that it'll hurt us too much to bear if they die, then they'll listen. If they love whoever's telling them that, they'll listen, why wouldn’t they? We sit down with people and tell them how terrible things like drugs, violence, sex, etc are so we should tell them about suicide as well. We all look down to drugs and violence and feel ashamed of those people. We tell our kids that those things are bad and are wrong. Suicide belongs on the list.

"If he can bully that girl, it means I can bully that boy too" You are only replacing my words but not providing evidence as I did with the explanation of impacts.

I repeat myself, the idea of suicide may have been created by the bully, HOWEVER, actually going through with it is entirely the 'victim's' fault. Just an idea is very different to actually going through with it. I have an idea: to work very hard and get a job and become the richest person in the world, but that will not happen because I don't want to work that hard. Suicide is a choice and no one can force you nor ‘push’ you to make that choice.

"I chose suicide cause of bullying which pushes me." You chose suicide because you are too weak to stand up for yourself and because the world did not tell you "No". They did not try to stop it so you though it OK.

I feel it too hard to rebut to some of your points. They are empty and have no solid evidence other than “[just] because bullying more unacceptable than suicide.” And "BULLYING affects more than suicide." Please elaborate.
Your last sentence was also contradicting to yourself.

Points:
Suicide marks you out for being weak. People will pity you and not in the way you want them to. On the outside, they will talk about how lovely you were, how beautiful, how friendly, but deep inside, what they feel for you is pity. Pity at how weak you were and how pathetic, how you couldn’t stand up for yourself and how youletthose people put you down. When you suicide, you will be remembered. Not for how great you were but because you killed yourself. You will be forever remembered as the person who was so weak, they took their own life. You will have a Wikipedia page with the first sentence being “(name) committed suicide on…”

This is the message society should work on. To show how truly unacceptable suicide is and how it should take priority over bullying. We should stop learning about bullying and focus on suicides because that is what is causing all the trauma, the tears, the pity and the even more suicides.

Another problem with our world is that we try to prevent things after it has happened. We only try to prevent bullyingbecause people suicide from it. Repeat: we try to prevent bullying Because Of Suicides. What we should do is focus on stopping suicides. Why? Because of suicides, of course. We should try to prevent people from killing themselves in the first place rather than focus on the so-called cause of it.
Suicide must take priority over bullying because it is more unacceptable. It is a cause for depression amongst many, it is encouragement for our future generation to suicide and it is a symbol of the human race as being weak.

Note to readers: For some reason, whenever I make words into italics, a space disappears. Sorry if you thought I had terrible grammar! :)

Thank-youidonotbelievey0u for such a thrilling debate! It was a lot of fun and (although it will not play in my favour) good luck!

idonotbelievey0u

Con

Being the last speaker, I would like to conclude my opponent's arguments from the past 5 rounds.
My opponent is trying to say that we should FOCUS more on suicide, that we NEED to tell them that it is wrong, that we should CHANGE society's outlook, and MAKE it more unacceptable than bullying, but these points were only his/her opinions which then proves what is REALLY happening in our world right now, that BULLYING is still more UNACCEPTABLE than suicide, because he/she's trying to make a CHANGE, but our goal here is only to PROVE why it is more unacceptable not to show WHAT TO DO to make it more unacceptable.

My dear opponent we are only spinning in circles with your point about making it POSITIVE, but my previous points were able to prove you wrong cause your rebuttals are still the same and not changing.
I disagree with your point about shooting my self in the foot, just like what I said, depression caused by bullying, making the victim think that SUICIDE is the right solution. Now, that's a reason to support my stand.

Your points in the SECOND paragraph were not strong enough. It is because it all goes back to the BULLYING that caused the child's death and caused the depression and the mother's death. That choice they made was because of BULLYING which is only more unacceptable.

Once again, in my opponent's 3rd paragraph, points were trying to make a CHANGE and not PROVING how more unacceptable suicide is.

In the 4th paragraph, it is still making a change, you said, "Our world focuses on how bad drugs are so peopleknow it's bad. If we show people how bad suicide is, they willknow it's bad too and will decide against it.", your point here is to tell how bad suicide is, but doesn't prove WHY? Our world is showing how bad BULLYING is that's why you asked to do an ACTION in making suicide bad, so it just proves the reality and the evidence it gives on how more UNACCEPTABLE BULLYING is.

" In fact, I was saying the exact opposite. I was comparing bullying to symptoms and by treating to symptoms, it will make no difference on the disease." JUST LIKE WHAT I SAID, YOU CAN'T HAVE BULLYING TO BE THE SYMPTOMS, explanations are on the previous arguments and you know that.

I disagree in your 6th par., I was able to give ENOUGH explanation, of course you do have a choice but that choice is just a RESULT of what is happening around you.
"Victims of amurdererdo not have a choice because they would not have seen it coming (as long as the murderer's smart and clean) but if someone were holding a gun to your head and told you to give them all your money, you do have a choice. Please do not twist my words." YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOUR OWN POINT. Even though they would not have seen it coming they would still have a RESULTED CHOICE., it is just like what you said, remember? ", you do have a choice."
I wasn't twisting your words, I was correcting your words, your CHOICES are RESULTED CHOICES because of the situation.

In your 7th paragraph, you're still making a CHANGE on what society's doing, which then agrees to my point. Were you able to site more examples? Just because you proved one doesn't mean all of them wanted THOSE REWARDS you mentioned. Some just wanted to escape from BULLYING not to be PITIED, if you killed yourself because people are bullying you, is it because you wanted others to mention how beautiful you are? Of course not! It is because you don't want to be BULLIED anymore.
"Bullying is much worse than suicide so it's OK to do it if you're bullied." , the message you saw from that was WRONG. That's why we are saying that BULLYING is WORSE to say that SUICIDE is BAD. And that doesn't show that it is OK. Hunger caused by society is worse than stealing because of hunger caused by society, was I saying that stealing is OK? No!

JUST TO RECAP WHAT I MENTIONED my dear opponent, we're here TO PROVE NOT TO SHOW WHAT TO DO , we should be telling facts on what is happening around us to support out argument, not showing UNDONE ACTIONS to be able to support our points. " I said that it is easier to stop suicide than to stop bullying because, let's face it, we are progressing much too slowly.", EXACTLY, suicide is easier, bullying is HARDER, that's why we are progressing slowly, isn't that already an evidence why BULLYING is more unacceptable?

In your 10th paragraph, if you understood my SUMMARY, you were unable to understand why. I wasn't replacing your words I was expanding it to support my argument. It gives others NEGATIVE CONFIDENCE to bully inferiors, that is my point and that is exactly what is happening in schools right now.

"Suicide is a choice and no one can force you nor "push" you to make that choice." NO! Of course, AGAIN, someone or something can push you to do that choice, it is your RESULTED DECISION to commit suicide or not if you were not BULLIED, as you see, VICTIMS would really stop suicide if BULLYING them stopped as well.

" You chose suicide because you are too weak to stand up for yourself and because the world did not tell you "No". They did not try to stop it so you though it OK.", NO, you became weak because of BULLYING, you lost confidence and self-esteem, that's why you could not fight for yourself. The world was not able to tell you NO because of BULLYING, see? It is very SEVERE just to push the victim to think that the world is against you.

I disagree, I wasn't contradicting my side. My dear opponent if you were able to understand my rebuttals, they weren't empty, the EVIDENCE is your STATEMENT, you can then scan our previous arguments. Your STATEMENTS were telling reality and I was expanding why is that reality? It is because it proves how hard, painful and destructive BULLYING is, just enough reason to say it is MORE UNACCEPTABLE than suicide. Why am I saying those points? It is because you yourself contradicted your own side by, AGAIN exposing REALITY.

MY FINAL POINTS
Suicide did not cause our weaknesses, BULLYING does. One is strong, but BULLYING just destroys it through lowering the self-esteem, the confidence, the belief, the power to shine and increases FEAR, HATE, ANGER and DEPRESSION. We can't blame them for being weak, we cannot force them to stand up all by themselves. Just like you, do you really have to stand up if your foot hurts SO MUCH? If you can't, should I be disappointed at you like that? just like how disappointed you are to the victims? NO! Because I know your limitations. We all have our own limitations. But friends help us, so as a FRIEND, I will CARRY you to help and save you. But what is BULLYING doing? It takes away FRIENDSHIP for the FEAR of being BULLIED as well. It takes away one's courage to help you for the fear of getting hurt by bullies. REALITY HURTS SO MUCH.
I remembered that you said SUICIDE is not caused by BULLYING now you're taking it back. How can we stop people from killing themselves if we won't tell them how CRUEL its CAUSE is. I know, taking away one's life is bad, but how much more is the cause for it? Right?
Once again, from the way you wanted SUICIDE to be changed to something more unacceptable, it just proves how MORE UNACCEPTABLE BULLYING is right now that's why you are insisting for an action.

To end this, BULLYING is a widespread virus that kills, it can't be stopped but it can be avoided just like how FIREWALLS in our computers are used against viruses. We can't stop it, a reason, an evidence, a FACT, isn't it enough to PROVE how MORE UNACCEPTABLE it is? Why? I can't accept that it cannot be stopped, that we have no chances of destroying it. However, GOD is great to help us, I know suicide (its result) is not the right answer but it can be stopped, it can be changed (just like what you're saying), and that is ACCEPTABLE for me, you know why? Cause it gives me HOPE against that UNACCEPTABLE BULLYING.

Thanks for making this debate great and thrilling hannachoi. I appreciated your WORDS OF ENCOURAGEMENT, and I learned so much. Hope you learned something as well :D.
Debate Round No. 5
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by cynicalthoughts 3 years ago
cynicalthoughts
I believe the Pro is right in this debate. Not just because of his arguments, but also because of my own experiences. I was heavily bullied through childhood and yes I did contemplate suicide numerous times. There was one important life lesson I took away from this that I believe is applicable to any victim of bullying. The minute you give up, you lose everything. I cannot stress how important it is to keep your head up and keep trudging forward. Life is painful, hard, and seemingly-worthless - I KNOW, and yes, suicide is the ever so tempting, easy way out. However, if I had suicided back then, I would ever be able to appreciate everything I've accomplished till now. Bully is absolutely unacceptable, if I could time travel back to give those bullies a piece of my mind, someone please tell me where to apply. Despite this, I think that suicide is even more unacceptable. Life shouldn't have to be extinguished over something like this.
Posted by HannaChoi 3 years ago
HannaChoi
@dvande28 I'm not talking about suicide because of something as severe as rape, although it still is not a wise move. Suicide because of bullying is the case in this debate.
Posted by HannaChoi 3 years ago
HannaChoi
idonotbelievey0u Sorry, I wasn't meaning to be offensive. I just thought this would be a good debate topic.
Also, since you were 1st to comment an acceptance...and an argument, I've accepted to compete with you. (BTW, You can copy+past what you said)
Posted by bsh1 3 years ago
bsh1
I'd accept this...
Posted by OliveJuice 3 years ago
OliveJuice
I would be more than willing to accept, however, I cannot because of your set requirements. If you would be willing to adjust them, I would join in and put forth a decent argument.

Thank you
Posted by evansgay.com 3 years ago
evansgay.com
I 100% agree with this, you sir are correct, stop being pathetic and man up, killing yourself is admitting that you aren't good enough to make it
Posted by NiqashMotawadi3 3 years ago
NiqashMotawadi3
I'm not sure if I'm the only one who could see the "Accept the challenge."
Posted by dvande28 3 years ago
dvande28
If a girl killed herself because of the emotional trauma after getting raped, would the suicide be worse than the rape?

Rape is something that will never be resolved. It will always be there because there can be no happiness without sadness. To know what happiness is, you must understand what [emotional] pain is. By killing yourself because of the emotional trauma caused by the rape, you are simply saying to yourself that you don't deserve happiness. You are saying to yourself that you are weak and undeserving of life.
Rape is like every other thing in life. Everyone will go through something bad in their life, something horrible. No matter who you are. Rich, poor, black, white, girl, boy, everyone will go through something bad!
Life isn't perfect and it'll never be and to think that you are deserving of a better life means that you are just attention seeking and pathetic and weak. To take your own life because of the tragedies you've suffered mean you are selfish and uncaring for all the people you are going to hurt. To think that you are the only one's who's ever suffered means you are stupid and purely self-centered.
Posted by Rasputin45 3 years ago
Rasputin45
I would like to debate this.
Posted by Pfalcon1318 3 years ago
Pfalcon1318
@Ragnar, PRO is suggesting that one of the results of bullying is a cause for happiness, not that bullying itself is the cause of happiness. Either way, it's a poor point, bit for different reasons.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ameliamk1 3 years ago
Ameliamk1
HannaChoiidonotbelievey0uTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:12 
Reasons for voting decision: Claims like "society makes suicide seem alluring" and "research proves this", but no evidence and few sources were actually presented in this debate. Arguments cannot be given, as neither side actually proved anything, but instead insinuated or claimed the existence of evidence. Sources go to Con for at least including a few links. Grammar goes to Pro, as Con practiced a rather bizarre propensity for random capitalization.