The Instigator
mongeese
Pro (for)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
mongoose
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

Super Mario Galaxy is more similar to Super Mario Sunshine than Super Mario 64.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
mongoose
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/29/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,532 times Debate No: 8821
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (11)
Votes (4)

 

mongeese

Pro

Super Mario 64 - http://www.nintendo.com...
Super Mario Sunshine - http://en.wikipedia.org...
Super Mario Galaxy - http://www.nintendo.com...

This debate is about the similarities of the three games based on three aspects:
Plot (Movie cutscenes, goals, etc.)
Gameplay (How the goals are accomplished, what the player has at his disposal)
Appearance (Visual and audio similarities)

If I show SMG to be more similar to SMS than SM64, I win.
If my opponent shows SMG to be more similar to SM64 than SMS, he wins.
Otherwise, it is a draw.

I hope that you accept, mongoose!

You can either start with your contentions in this round, or wait.
mongoose

Con

Super Mario Galaxy goes more back to the roots of the great Super Mario 64 than it does to the not-quite-as-great Super Mario Sunshine.

Contention 1: Flying
Mario is unable to fly in Sunshine. In Galaxy and 64, Mario is able to fly.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 2: Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Thwomp, Pushy Wall, and Tox Box
Sunshine has a surprising lack of them, unlike Galaxy and 64.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 3: Bowser Fights
In both 64 and Galaxy, Mario fights Bowser three times, with the final time using him as the final boss. In Sunshine, Bowser is fought only once, at the end.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 4: Bowser Size
See Video 1, starting around 4:05. In Sunshine, Bowser is freakishly huge. In Galaxy and 64, Bowser is much closer to Mario's size.

Contention 5: Beginning of Plot
In Sunshine, Mario is with Peach at the start when they go on vacation, but is later kidnapped. In Galaxy and 64, Peach sends Mario a letter, inviting him to the castle, and he never actually reaches Peach until the end.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 6: Speaking
In Sunshine, as you can see from the same point in Video 1, there is a lot of speaking without subtitles .In both Galaxy and 64, only Peach does this, but not very much, and it is accompanied by subtitles.

Contention 7: Bowser Music
Galaxy uses some of the Bowser Music from 54 at least in the first Bowser stage.

Contention 8: Requirements
In Sunshine, one must defeat Shadow Mario seven times, once in each of the seven places. In both Galaxy and 64, Mario needs 60 Power Stars

Contention 9: Rewards
In Sunshine, the rewards are Shine Sprites. In Galaxy and 64, the rewards are Power Stars.

Contention 10: Sleeves
In Sunshine, Mario has short sleeves. In Galaxy and 64, he has long sleeves.

Contention 11: Rabbits and Penguins
Sunshine has neither. Galaxy and 64 have both.

Contention 12: Number of places
In Sunshine, there are seven major places. In Galaxy and 64, there are 15.

Contention 13: Boos
In Sunshine, Boos don't move, sleep, and must be defeated by a Yoshi. In Galaxy and 64, Boos follow you, unless you turn around, at which point you can see what's inside it and iit stops moving.

Contention 14: Variety
In Sunshine, all of the places are by the water, in a mostly beach-like fashion. In Galaxy and 64, there are lava-lands (Melty Molten Galaxy, Lethal Lava Land), deserts (Dusty Dune Galaxy, Shifting Sand Land), snowy mountains (Freezeflame Galaxy, Snowman's land), and a mechanical place (Toy Time Galaxy, Tick Tock Clock).

Contention 15: Long Jump
Does not appear in Sunshine.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

That is all for now.
Debate Round No. 1
mongeese

Pro

"Contention 1: Flying
Mario is unable to fly in Sunshine. In Galaxy and 64, Mario is able to fly."
Mario has a flying substitute known as the Rocket Nozzle, along with a gliding substitute known as the Hover Nozzle. None of the games have the same type of flying.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

"Contention 2: Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Thwomp, Pushy Wall, and Tox Box
Sunshine has a surprising lack of them, unlike Galaxy and 64."
However, Sunshine and Galaxy both have Cataquacks, Bloopers, Cheep-Cheeps, and Pokey Sprouts.

"Contention 3: Bowser Fights
In both 64 and Galaxy, Mario fights Bowser three times, with the final time using him as the final boss. In Sunshine, Bowser is fought only once, at the end."
In both Sunshine and Galaxy, Bowser Jr. is a character. In both final battles, Bowser Jr. can be seen holding Peach captive. At the end of each final battle, a dangerous event occurs (the stage dropping everybody miles below, the stage turning into a black hole), and Mario's assistant (F.L.U.D.D., Luma) becomes injured in someway. Everything is back to normal in the end. Such a fight does not occur in 64.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

"Contention 4: Bowser Size
See Video 1, starting around 4:05. In Sunshine, Bowser is freakishly huge. In Galaxy and 64, Bowser is much closer to Mario's size."
Bowser Jr.'s size is consistent in both games.
http://www.mariowiki.com....

"Contention 5: Beginning of Plot
In Sunshine, Mario is with Peach at the start when they go on vacation, but is later kidnapped. In Galaxy and 64, Peach sends Mario a letter, inviting him to the castle, and he never actually reaches Peach until the end."
In both Sunshine and Galaxy, Mario starts the action in some unknown location (Delfino Airstrip, Gateway Galaxy), where he gains an assistant (F.L.U.D.D., Luma), and then receives one item (Shine, Star). Later in the game, Mario is able to go back and get another Shine/Star.

"Contention 6: Speaking
In Sunshine, as you can see from the same point in Video 1, there is a lot of speaking without subtitles .In both Galaxy and 64, only Peach does this, but not very much, and it is accompanied by subtitles."
See? More characters speak in Sunshine and Galaxy.

"Contention 7: Bowser Music
Galaxy uses some of the Bowser Music from 54 at least in the first Bowser stage."
File this under "Bowser Fights."

"Contention 8: Requirements
In Sunshine, one must defeat Shadow Mario seven times, once in each of the seven places. In both Galaxy and 64, Mario needs 60 Power Stars"
Wrong.
In Sunshine, one needs a minimum of fifty Shines, seven of them being specific.
In Galaxy, one needs a minimum of sixty Stars, four of them being specific.
In 64, one doesn't need any stars. (See Video 1.)

"Contention 9: Rewards
In Sunshine, the rewards are Shine Sprites. In Galaxy and 64, the rewards are Power Stars."
In 64, the Stars are polygonal and yellow.
The graphics are much improved in Sunshine and Galaxy, and the Stars in Galaxy shine golden, much like the Shines.

"Contention 10: Sleeves
In Sunshine, Mario has short sleeves. In Galaxy and 64, he has long sleeves."
In 64, Mario is polygonal.
Mario is not polygonal in Sunshine or Galaxy.

"Contention 11: Rabbits and Penguins
Sunshine has neither. Galaxy and 64 have both."
Sunshine and Galaxy have Bees and Bowser Jr.

"Contention 13: Boos
In Sunshine, Boos don't move, sleep, and must be defeated by a Yoshi. In Galaxy and 64, Boos follow you, unless you turn around, at which point you can see what's inside it and iit[sic] stops moving."
Wrong. Boos are very active in Sunshine, as well.
Mario can defeat Boos on his own in 64.
In Sunshine, Yoshi is required to eat the Boos.
In Galaxy, light is required to defeat the Boos.
For all we know, the Boos in Sunshine and Galaxy can be defeated in the same ways, but we know that they are different from the Boos in 64.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

"Contention 14: Variety
In Sunshine, all of the places are by the water, in a mostly beach-like fashion. In Galaxy and 64, there are lava-lands (Melty Molten Galaxy, Lethal Lava Land), deserts (Dusty Dune Galaxy, Shifting Sand Land), snowy mountains (Freezeflame Galaxy, Snowman's land), and a mechanical place (Toy Time Galaxy, Tick Tock Clock)."
Galaxy has plenty of beach-like galaxies.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

"Contention 15: Long Jump
Does not appear in Sunshine."
In Sunshine, Mario uses the Hover Nozzle as a mid-air jump.
In Galaxy, Mario uses Star Spin as a mid-air jump.
In 64, Mario falls to his death.

Now, for my own contentions:

Contention 1: Coins
Coins make the same appearance sounds in Galaxy and Sunshine, and look the same.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 2: Assistant
In Sunshine, Mario has F.L.U.D.D.
In Galaxy, Mario has Luma.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 3: Graphics
The graphics were nice in 64.
They improved greatly in Sunshine.
They improved even more greatly in Galaxy.
Thus, Galaxy's graphics are more similar to those of Sunshine than those of 64.

Contention 4: Bullet Bill
Sunshine introduced the ability to use Bullet Bills to break cages and such.
This ability was retained in Galaxy.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 5: Shadow Mario
Sunshine had Shadow Mario.
Galaxy had Cosmic Mario.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 5: Racing
While all three games involve races against NPCs, only Sunshine and Galaxy will kill you if you fail.

Contention 6: Victory Dance
Galaxy and Sunshine have longer victory dances, that don't zoom out quite so much.

Contention 7: Shine/Star Location
In 64, the 100-coin Star appears directly over the last coin obtained.
In Sunshine and Galaxy, the 100-coin item appears in a set location.

Contention 8: Death

See Video 2 (everywhere), Video 3 (1:10), and Video 4 (everywhere). In Sunshine and Galaxy, the words "Too bad!" appear when you die. Not in 64. 64 has Bowser's laugh, while Sunshine and Galaxy have funky random sounds.

Contention 9: Cleaning Up
Sunshine and Galaxy both have events where you must clean things up.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
(Scrubbing Sirena Beach)

Contention 10: Watermelons
Both Sunshine and Galaxy have watermelons.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 11: Order
Sunshine and Galaxy force Mario to get the Stars/Shines in order, with only secrets and 100 coins being exceptions. 64 is more free-reign.

That's eleven contentions. It's ridiculous. It's not even funny.

Anyway, that will be all for now. Thanks for accepting.
mongoose

Con

First, I will refute my opponent's refutations for my contentions, then I will refute my opponent's contentions, then I will add new contentions.

1. Hovering and rocketing are not even close to the great and amazing wonders of flying. You can't even compare them. Flying involves almost complete control, and the ability to turn much more gracefully than hovering.

2. I will add the following to my list: Grand Goombas, Amps, Scuttle Bugs, and FireBars. You see, there are a lot more similar enemies between 64 and Galaxy.

http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

3. In both 64 and Galaxy, Toadsworth, Piantas, and Nokis are not characters. Your argument is largely irrelevant to the contention, but on a different, the ends of both Galaxy and 64 occur outside of Peach's castle.

http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

4. Er... Toadsworth's size was consistent in both games? That is a stupid argument, and not what the contention was about.

5. Wrong. In Galaxy, Mario starts the action outside of Peach's castle, the same place as in 64.

6. So, 64 has a "speaking amount score" of, let's say, 1. Let's say that Galaxy's is about 10, and Sunshine's is about 100. How does this make Galaxy more similar to Sunshine? It doesn't.

7. No. It stays where it is.

8. Wrong. That video is using massive glitches. That is not the true "game." Also, there is one required star in 64 (Board Bowser's Sub.) Sunshine does not actively require 50. In order to get those seven, the minimum that you could have is 50. That is not a restriction. If you hacked to just get those seven, it would try to let you in to face Bowser.

9. You used this argument as a different contention. You can't use it here.

10. You used that argument as a different contention. You can't use it here.

11. You used that argument in a different contention. The bees in Sunshine live in tiny hives, look a lot like tiny dots, give you a blue coin or 1-UP mushroom when you beat all of them, and try to kill you. The bees in Galaxy are anthropomorphic, Mario's size, and talk to you. Big difference.

http://www.mariowiki.com...

12. This has been conceded.

13. Sorry, I was just referring to the Boos that I remembered. In Galaxy, light was always easy to reach near a Boo. In Sunshine, a Yoshi can be difficult to find.

14. Of the 4 beach-like galaxies mentioned, two are not beaches but places with water, and three of them have penguins. 64 has two beach-like areas as well, and a lot of water. (Dire, Dire Docks, Jolly Roger Bay, The Secret Aquarium)

http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

15. Good point. Contention ends in a draw.

Refutations:

1. But they all had coins, and I have no reason to believe you, which I don't. I don't remember what coins looked like.

2. Note that in both 64 and Galaxy, there is no F.L.U.D.D.

3. 64 and Galaxy both had superb graphics for their respective time periods. Sunshine... not so much.

4. But they all had Bullet Bills. That is a very, very minor point.

5. Shadow Mario =/= Cosmic Mario.

6. Exactly, they all had racing. That is a very, very minor point.

8. If you look at my opponent's videos, you will see that Bowser's face does appear when you die in Galaxy and 64, but not in Sunshine.

9. Yeah... great. Very minor point.

10. Also very minor. They do entirely different things.

11. No it doesn't. You can get the Petey Piranha star one when you're supposed to get another one.

http://www.mariowiki.com...

New Contentions:

Contention 16: Cannons
You can shoot out of them in 64 and Galaxy, but they are not in Sunshine. Very important. Very similar.

http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 17: Ratings
Galaxy and 64 both did a good deal better than Sunshine.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Contention 18: Innovation
64 was among the first to introduce a great 3D game play, which really started the great 3D games. Galaxy was among the first to use such great gravity techniques in such a great way. Sunshine introduced... a water backpack. Not nearly as much impact.

Contention 19: Yoshi
In Sunshine, there were many Yoshis, who played a key role. In 64, all one Yoshi did was give you 99 lives after you completed the game. In Galaxy, one Yoshi head appeared as a planet. There was a serious lack of "Yoshiness" in most of 64 and Galaxy.

http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 20: Peach's Castle
In both Galaxy and 64, Mario is able to go to the outside of the castle. The layout in both games is almost the same. Mario can never reach it in Sunshine.

http://www.mariowiki.com...'s_Castle
Debate Round No. 2
mongeese

Pro

"1. Hovering and rocketing are not even close to the great and amazing wonders of flying. You can't even compare them. Flying involves almost complete control, and the ability to turn much more gracefully than hovering."
In 64, Mario can't gain height through flying.
In Sunshine and Galaxy, he can.

"2. I will add the following to my list: Grand Goombas, Amps, Scuttle Bugs, and FireBars. You see, there are a lot more similar enemies between 64 and Galaxy."
Grand Goombas are Goombas. Firebars aren't in 64, according to the Wiki article.

"3. In both 64 and Galaxy, Toadsworth, Piantas, and Nokis are not characters. Your argument is largely irrelevant to the contention, but on a different, the ends of both Galaxy and 64 occur outside of Peach's castle."
Well, of course there are going to be characters that only appear in one game. In fact, Galaxy and Sunshine actually had a diversity of characters, unlike 64, which had Mario, Peach, Bowser, Toads, and Red Bo-bombs. That's it.
My contentions were about what occurred directly after the fight.
In both Galaxy and Sunshine, Bowser actually appears in the ending sequence after being defeated, along with Bowser Jr. and a bunch of partying characters. 64 had a much more subtle ending.

"Wrong. In Galaxy, Mario starts the action outside of Peach's castle, the same place as in 64."
That was hardly action. When the plot really starts, Galaxy and Sunshine are vastly similar.

"6. So, 64 has a 'speaking amount score' of, let's say, 1. Let's say that Galaxy's is about 10, and Sunshine's is about 100. How does this make Galaxy more similar to Sunshine? It doesn't."
Now you're making up numbers.

"8. Wrong. That video is using massive glitches. That is not the true 'game.' Also, there is one required star in 64 (Board Bowser's Sub.) Sunshine does not actively require 50. In order to get those seven, the minimum that you could have is 50. That is not a restriction. If you hacked to just get those seven, it would try to let you in to face Bowser."
Massive glitches? It only used one. Galaxy and Sunshine lack such a glitch. It is still the "game."
Now you introduce hacking, after complaining about glitches.

"9. You used this argument as a different contention. You can't use it here."
This isn't just about improved graphics. It's about how the Power Stars now look more like Shines than original Power Stars.

"10. You used that argument as a different contention. You can't use it here."
No. We're talking about Mario's appearance.

"11. You used that argument in a different contention...."
Bees are bees.

"13. Sorry, I was just referring to the Boos that I remembered. In Galaxy, light was always easy to reach near a Boo. In Sunshine, a Yoshi can be difficult to find."
So? They could still be defeatable by each other's weaknesses. 64 offers no such possibility.

"14. Of the 4 beach-like galaxies mentioned, two are not beaches but places with water..."
Sunshine had places that weren't beaches, but were basically just water.

"1. But they all had coins, and I have no reason to believe you, which I don't. I don't remember what coins looked like."
The 64 coin: http://www.mariowiki.com...
The Sunshine coin: http://www.mariowiki.com...
The Galaxy coin: http://www.cheatcc.com...

"2. Note that in both 64 and Galaxy, there is no F.L.U.D.D."
However, in Galaxy, you at least find a replacement (Luma) while 64 has no such assistant.

"3. 64 and Galaxy both had superb graphics for their respective time periods. Sunshine... not so much."
Keep your opinions to yourself. This is a debate for discussing facts.

"4. But they all had Bullet Bills. That is a very, very minor point."
However, it remains a point.

"5. Shadow Mario =/= Cosmic Mario."
http://www.mariowiki.com...
"He appears as a starry clone of Mario, similar in appearance to Shadow Mario."

"6. Exactly, they all had racing. That is a very, very minor point."
My opponent claims that death is a minor point.

"7..."
My opponent concedes Contention 7, that Stars and Shines have set locations in Sunshine and Galaxy.

"9. Yeah... great. Very minor point."
He thinks that cleaning up is unimportant...

"10. Also very minor. They do entirely different things."
No, you kick the watermelons around in both games. Watermelons are not minor. They are among the larger fruits.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com...

"11. No it doesn't. You can get the Petey Piranha star one when you're supposed to get another one."
Only once.
"Unlike Super Mario 64 where the player could usually get most Power Stars no matter which mission was chosen, this game usually lets Mario obtain only the Shine Sprite the player select[sic] from the screen prior to the level."

"Contention 16: Cannons
You can shoot out of them in 64 and Galaxy, but they are not in Sunshine. Very important. Very similar."
http://www.mariowiki.com...
The cannon to Pinna Park will not be fixed until ten Shine Sprites are collected.

"Contention 17: Ratings
Galaxy and 64 both did a good deal better than Sunshine."
So? That doesn't make the games similar. Does this make Ocarina of Time more similar to 64 than Sunshine? This is people's opinions about the greatness of the game.

"Contention 18: Innovation
64 was among the first to introduce a great 3D game play, which really started the great 3D games. Galaxy was among the first to use such great gravity techniques in such a great way. Sunshine introduced... a water backpack. Not nearly as much impact."
Again, this isn't really an in-game similarity.

"Contention 19: Yoshi
In Sunshine, there were many Yoshis, who played a key role. In 64, all one Yoshi did was give you 99 lives after you completed the game. In Galaxy, one Yoshi head appeared as a planet. There was a serious lack of 'Yoshiness' in most of 64 and Galaxy."
A lack of something does not make games similar.

Contention 12: Hit Drop
In Sunshine and Galaxy, when Mario uses the Hit Drop, he leaves a trailing illusion of himself.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 13: Undergrunt Gunner
http://www.mariowiki.com...
"The Undergrunt Gunners appearances and attack patterns are similar to the Monty Moles from Super Mario Sunshine.
Notably the cannons they use are similar to FLUDD's nozzle."

Contention 14: Shadow
In both Sunshine and Galaxy, you can see Mario's shadow whenever he is behind something.

Contention 15: Ninjaness
In 64, it is easy for Mario to get stars in ways that were completely unintended.
This is not so in Galaxy and Sunshine.

Contention 16: Toads
Five Toads appear in Sunshine, that don't appear in 64, as they are different colors. These five Toads then appear as the supreme Toad Brigade in Galaxy, helping Mario on his journey.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 17: Rooms
64 requires constant opening and closing of doors to enter different rooms. Galaxy and Sunshine don't.

Contention 18: Release Date
Both Galaxy and Sunshine were released after the Wii and GameCube, respectively. 64 was released concurrently with the Nintendo 64.

Contention 19: Damage Meter
Enemies and obstacles have variable damage in 64. In Sunshine and Galaxy, everything does 1 damage, or is an instant kill.

Contention 20: Air Meter
64 combines the air meter with the damage meter. Sunshine and Galaxy have a separate air meter.

Contention 21: Camera
The camera is not held by Lakitu in Sunshine and Galaxy.
mongoose

Con

1. In 64, he can use a cannon. In Sunshine, after rocketing into the air, he has little control, and quickly plummets.

2. In that case, Pokey Sprouts are Pokeys. Fire Bars are in 64. Look again. I would like to add Swoopers to the list of enemies in 64 and Galaxy, but not Sunshine.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

3. I added that to the contention. Whether or not there are other characters is not as important as what the characters are.

5. Bowser coming down with airships and kidnapping Peach isn't action? What?

6. I know. They're just representative. You conceded the point.

8. That is one massive glitch. How do you know that Sunshine and Galaxy lack such a glitch? It took many, many years to find the other one.

9. That is about graphics.

10. That is about graphics.

11. No, they are not. Giant bees are structured much differently than tiny bees.

13. What doesn't 64 offer the possibility?

14. So did 64. In fact, most of the areas in 64 had at least some water.

1. Very minor.

2. But they both lack F.L.U.D.D. Also, in Sunshine, at many points during gameplay, Mario loses F.L.U.D.D., or transforms it into a different nozzle. This never happens to the Luma.

3. It's true.

4. But very minor, having little impact on the resolution.

5. Similar is not equal to.

6. It is. In 64, you'd probably exit course to try again.

9. In Sunshine, he cleans goop with water. In Galaxy, he cleans trash with bombs. Also, he dies if he fails in Sunshine. Not so for Galaxy.

10. But one is judged, while the other is used to kill things. Different.

11. "Usually." That does not mean always.

16. The cannon in Sunshine is simply a portal to a different place. It functions no differently than a Warp Pipe. In 64 and Galaxy, you aim the cannon, and choose when to fire.

17. It makes Ocarina of Time more similar than it would otherwise be.

19. If you have three pictures, and one has a red pineapple, one has a yellow pineapple, and the other has both a green pineapple and a watermelon, which two are the most similar? The first two.

12. Very minor.

13. But they are not the same.

15. How do you know? You haven't played Sunshine nearly as much as you have 64.

17. That's because it's indoors.

18. This is not "in-game."

21. How do you know?

Time for new contentions.

Contention 21: Lava
In 64 and Galaxy, lava makes Mario jump into the air, taking some damage. In Sunshine, it's an instant kill.
"Falling into the lava results in instant death."
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 22: Ice Water
IN 64 and Galaxy, there are places where Mario takes damage from being in the water.
http://www.mariowiki.com...'s_Land#Star_4:_Whirl_From_the_Freezing_Pond
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 23: Sunken Ship
There is a sunken ship in 64 (Jolly Roger Bay) and in Galaxy (Drip Drop Galaxy), but not in Sunshine.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 24: Clams
There are clams in 64 and Galaxy, usually containing a coin or similar item.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 25: Piranha Plant
In 64 and Galaxy, this enemy looke normal, is not covered in goop, and can be killed with a jump.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 26: Airship
In 64, there is a flying ship in Rainbow Ride. In Galaxy, Bowser has a fleet of flying ships.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 27: Pyramids
There are pyraminds in 64 (Shifting Sand Land) and Galaxy (Dusty Dunes Galaxy).
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 28: Rabbit Hunting
In 64 and Galaxy, there are stars that can be obtained by catching rabbits.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 29: Logo
In 64 and Galaxy, the logo has the word MARIO with a blue M, green A, yellow R, red I, and green O. In Sunshine, all letters are blue, except the O, which looks like a sun.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 30: Snow
There is no snow in Sunshine, but there is a lot of snow in 64 (Cool, Cool Mountain; Snowman's land) and Galaxy (Freezeflame Galaxy; Snow Cap Galaxy). This also applys to snowmen, although the ones in Galaxy don't attack you.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 31: Green Shell
These do not appear in Sunshine. In both 64 and Galaxy, they can help Mario traverse water more quickly.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 32: Invisibility
In 64, Mario can get the Vanish Cap, which lets him pass through certain walls. In Galaxy, Mario can get the Boo Mushroom, which turns him into Boo Mario, which lets him go through certain walls.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 33: Transformations
In 64, there are the three caps (Wing Cap, Metal Cap, and Vanish Cap). In Galaxy, there are Mushrooms, Flowers, and Stars (Bee Mushroom, Boo Mushroom, Spring Mushroom, Fire Flower, Ice Flower, Rainbow Star, and Red Star). This is unlike F.L.U.D.D.'s transformations because this changes Mario himself, not his assistant.

Contention 34: Volcano
In 64 and Galaxy, Mario is able to enter a volcano from above. He can't in Sunshine.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 35: Sinking Sand
There is no sinking sand in Sunshine.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...
Debate Round No. 3
mongeese

Pro

"1. In 64, he can use a cannon...."
Ah, but cannons aren't everywhere, while in Galaxy, Mario could gain height anywhere.

"2. In that case, Pokey Sprouts are Pokeys..."
http://www.mariowiki.com...
Notice how he is the one who added Firebars to be in 64. He needs video proof, or it doesn't exist.

"3. I added that to the contention...."
Well, when you have two characters that mirror each other, it's worth noting.

"5. Bowser coming down with airships and kidnapping Peach isn't action?..."
Not for Mario, seeing as you can't actually do much.

"6. I know. They're just representative..."
No. You're making up numbers. They mean nothing. Your comparisons are worthless.

"8. That is one massive glitch...."
However, with improved technology comes the ridding of glitches. Plus, we know that 64 has the glitch, but we don't know about the others, so that is separate for now.

"9. That is about graphics."
This means that the graphics contention consumes this contention.
Same to 10.

"11. No, they are not..."
How do you know?

"13. What doesn't 64 offer the possibility?"
In 64, physical blows work, but they don't in Sunshine and Galaxy.

"14. So did 64...."
Sunshine was more directed towards water, and Galaxy acknowledged this with more water stages than normal.

"1. Very minor."
Coins are not minor. They are a key aspect of the game. And so far, I'm winning in the Appearances category, especially because all of the enemies in 64 and Galaxy look completely different, while enemies in Sunshine and Galaxy behave almost identically.

"2. But they both lack F.L.U.D.D...."
Lacking F.L.U.D.D. at times isn't as bad as having nothing to make up for it.
So F.L.U.D.D. is slightly different from Luma. This is expected.

"3. It's true."
Yeah, right. This is unsupported. Plus, it doesn't really matter, because Galaxy is still more similar in graphics to Sunshine than 64.

"4. But very minor..."
A point remains a point.

"5. Similar is not equal to."
The resolution says, "similar."

"6. It is. In 64, you'd probably exit course to try again."
But it wouldn't be mandatory, and you wouldn't lose a life.

Contentions 7 and 8 are conceded.

"9. In Sunshine, he cleans goop with water. In Galaxy, he cleans trash with bombs. Also, he dies if he fails in Sunshine. Not so for Galaxy."
The point is still on my side.

"10. But one is judged, while the other is used to kill things. Different."
You can use the Sunshine watermelons to squish things. Plus, you kick both watermelons. They're watermelons.

"11. 'Usually.' That does not mean always."
There was only ONE exception. So, Sunshine is still more similar to Galaxy in this respect.

"13. But they are not the same."
"Similar."

"15. How do you know? You haven't played Sunshine nearly as much as you have 64."
Did you watch the ninja Mario video? That was 64. Sunshine has more open spaces, rather than everything stacked up, which led to ninja Mario.

Contentions 12-15 are conceded by my opponent.

"16. The cannon in Sunshine is simply a portal to a different place..."
Cannons are cannons. With the exception of the ability to choose direction, the Sunshine cannon is an ordinary cannon.
In both Sunshine and Galaxy, the cannons are red.

"17. It makes Ocarina of Time more similar than it would otherwise be."
No, it doesn't. Appeal to the public does not change a video game.

"17. That's because it's indoors."
Ah, so both Sunshine and Galaxy are outdoors, while 64 is indoors. That's huge.

"18. This is not 'in-game.'"
The game's launch date is at least as important as ratings.

"19. If you have three pictures, and one has a red pineapple, one has a yellow pineapple, and the other has both a green pineapple and a watermelon, which two are the most similar? The first two."
If you had a picture of a piece of cheese and a cookie, a picture of cheese and a strawberry, and a picture of cheese, which two are the most similar? The first two. That is the comparison between Sunshine, Galaxy, and 64.

My opponent conceded the similarities in the damage meter and air meter.

"21. How do you know?"
http://www.mariowiki.com...
Mirrors and water reflections. Somebody would have spotted Lakitu by now.

"Contention 21: Lava
In 64 and Galaxy, lava makes Mario jump into the air, taking some damage. In Sunshine, it's an instant kill."
http://www.mariowiki.com...
"Episode 3: The Goopy Inferno
The entire village is covered in magma, and the mayor is stranded."
http://www.mariowiki.com...
"In Super Mario Sunshine, the Goop painted by Bowser Jr. (a.k.a. Shadow Mario) with his Magic Paintbrush would occasionally contain traces of lava. This lava, however, did not result in immediate death."

"Contention 25: Piranha Plant
In 64 and Galaxy, this enemy looke[sic] normal, is not covered in goop, and can be killed with a jump."
Normal?
Both Sunshine and Galaxy have a Piranha Plant boss, either Petey Piranha or Dino Piranha.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

"Contention 29: Logo
In 64 and Galaxy, the logo has the word MARIO with a blue M, green A, yellow R, red I, and green O. In Sunshine, all letters are blue, except the O, which looks like a sun."
In Sunshine and Galaxy, you see the three words occupying separate layers. In 64, the 64 is to the right of the rest of the logo.

"Contention 31: Green Shell
These do not appear in Sunshine. In both 64 and Galaxy, they can help Mario traverse water more quickly."
In 64, you ride on the green shells over water. In Galaxy, you carry the green shells, and can use them underwater.

"Contention 33: Transformations
In 64, there are the three caps (Wing Cap, Metal Cap, and Vanish Cap). In Galaxy, there are Mushrooms, Flowers, and Stars (Bee Mushroom, Boo Mushroom, Spring Mushroom, Fire Flower, Ice Flower, Rainbow Star, and Red Star). This is unlike F.L.U.D.D.'s transformations because this changes Mario himself, not his assistant."
However, F.L.U.D.D.'s transformations are still transformations.

"Contention 34: Volcano
In 64 and Galaxy, Mario is able to enter a volcano from above. He can't in Sunshine."
Here's the obvious counter-contention: In Sunshine and Galaxy, Mario is able to exit a volcano above. He can't in 64.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

"Contention 35: Sinking Sand
There is no sinking sand in Sunshine."
But Sunshine has lots of sand.
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Now, for my final contentions:

Contention 22: Jumping
In Sunshine and Galaxy, Mario can jump and bounce on everybody's heads. Not so in 64.

Contention 23: Red
Mario flashes red when hit in Sunshine and Galaxy.

Contention 24: Kidnapping
We witness Peach's kidnapping in Galaxy and Sunshine, but not 64.
http://www.mariowiki.com...
http://www.mariowiki.com...

Contention 25: Saving
You can save after the final fight in Galaxy and Sunshine, but not in 64.

Contention 26: Graphic Similarities
Enemies look completely different in 64 from Galaxy and Sunshine. Look at Cataquacks from each game, and then look at Goombas from each game.

Contention 27: Ratings
64 is rated K-A.
Sunshine and Galaxy are rated E.

So, in conclusion, Sunshine and Galaxy have a more developed plot than 64, look more similar in appearance than 64, with the improved graphics and whatnot, along with the shadow, the flashing red, and the coins, and have more similar gameplay, with the jumping on characters, the 100-coin star, the damage and air meters, and the necessary order of stars. So, Galaxy is more similar to Sunshine, and the resolution is affirmed. Vote PRO.
mongoose

Con

1. Ah, but Red Stars are not everywhere either. Mario could only gain height at the observatory.

2. See about 4:30 in the video. That is a FireBar.

3. The characters do not mirror each other, so it's worth nothing.

5. Mario walks to the castle, while dodging cannon balls. That is something.

6. You can't call my comparisons worthless. The point is, Galaxy is about half-way between 64 and Sunshine as far as how much cinematic action is used, so it means nothing when comparing them.

8. If you say the difference is in what we know, then that is out of the game.

9. But graphics has nothing to do with its name (Power Star) and shape (star). I win.

10. The contention was about sleeves. Not graphics. I win.

11. Sunshine bees sting you. Galaxy bees can't. The Galaxy Queen Bee is huge.

13. But they MIGHT be killed by light as well.

14. 64 had more water stages than Galaxy, so Galaxy had less water stages than normal. So 64 is in between, making it more similar to Sunshine.

1. It has no effect on game play, and they are still both yellow and circular.

2. Not as bad, but still bad.

4. But not as much as you make it out to be.

5. But being similar to it makes the two games less similar to each other compared to how similar they would be if it was the same.

6. But it doesn't affect game play that much.

9. Only as much as the racing one is on mine.

10. Sunshine watermelons burst when hit by enemies. Galaxy watermelons only appear when you have 9999 star bits.

11. So they're not as similar as you claimed.

13. ^ see 5.

15. You say nothing about Galaxy, and I know that one can be ninja in Galaxy, because I have. So, I say that you can't be ninja in Sunshine, but you can in Galaxy and 64.

16. The Sunshine cannon has no different game play than a warp pipe to another place. The cannons in Galaxy and Sunshine are used in individual stages, and Mario stays in that stage. He also has to walk into a square hole in the ground, then aim, and fire.

17. It changes the opinion of the game.

18?. But Sunshine is in a town, populated by Piantas. Galaxy and 64 are in places where 1 human lives, along with either Toads or Lumas.

19? So both don't count.

20? No, your comparisons don't apply to the games, and don't have anything to do with Yoshi. I win this contention.

21. Water doesn't reflect in those games.

21. That lava is only a thin layer, and not a sea. The "sea" lave in Sunshine is instant kill, unlike any lava in Galaxy or 64.

25. But one is half-dinosaur. 64 and Galaxy both have bosses with giant, rock hands (Eyerok and Bouldergeist).

29. That is not as important as the color of the glorious name of "MARIO."

31. But you can't deny what I said, can you?

33. But they are not Mario's.

35. And so do all the games. But this is about sinking sand.

26. They still look similar, and THERE ARE NO GOOMBAS IN SUNSHINE. For a Mario game, that is a major red flag.

27. They are the same. http://www.mariowiki.com...

In Conclusion, both Galaxy and 64 had:
Flight
Rabbits
Penguins
The castle (where it starts and ends)
Goombas
Grand Goombas
Koopa Troopas
Pushy Walls
Tox Boxes
Amps
Scuttle Bugs
FireBars
15 major courses
3 Bowser fights, 1-1, at a regular size
Peach sends Mario a letter at the beginning
Long Jump
All speaking with subtitles and little to no actual spoken words
Power Stars, 60 of which are required to face Bowser the third time
Long Sleeves
Lava Place
Desert
Snowy Mountain
Mechanical Place
Less Water than Sunshine
Cannons used to aim Mario at will
Little mention of Yoshi
Mario transformations
No instant-kill lava
Icy water that damages Mario
Sunken Ships
Clams
Piranha Plants that are red, and don't spit goop
Airships
Pyramids
Rabbits with Power Stars
Logo in which Mario has a blue M, green A, yellow R, red I, and green O.
Snow
Green Shell
Invisibility
Sinking Sand
A boss with rock hands

Vote CON.
Debate Round No. 4
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
Wow. 49 to 57. Given the fact that most of those were just the same source used over and over again, if you only count individual websites, it is PRO's MarioWiki, YouTube, Wikipedia, and a picture against MarioWiki and YouTube.

"neither debater had much of an organized argument"
Is responding with quotes more organized than responding without? CON just numbered off rebuttals, while PRO directly rebutted.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
COND: TIED (no major infringements)
S/G: TIED (no major infringements [mongeese, come on])
ARG: TIED (neither debater had much of an organized argument, as it was not much more than a large hodgepodge. I'm sure a few points went each way, but it was nothing but a stalemate)

So, it comes down to sources. I counted videos as 2.

SRC: CON (49-57)
Posted by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
I know, but there are so many contentions!
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
What a long debate over something so few care about.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
RFD:
B/A - PRO
Conduct - TIED
S/G - PRO
"Lave"?
Arguments - PRO
CON's list at the end was mostly minor.
http://www.debate.org...
"◦Organization - Which debater organized their arguments the best, creating an easily understood and readable path to follow?"
This was obviously PRO, as PRO quoted and refuted CON, while CON messily countered by number.
Sources - TIED
Super Mario Wiki!
Posted by iamadragon 7 years ago
iamadragon
Yeah, I used to a play a bit, then I quit for over a year and a half, then played for like three days, then quit for a few months, then played for a few weeks, then quit. I think I'm done, now.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
I used to play KoL. Got tired of it around last December. TomBill.
Posted by iamadragon 7 years ago
iamadragon
1. Sunshine is overall kind of easy. They're all great though.

2. I read the first round and got bored. mongoose had some good arguments, though.

3. You play KOL?
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
It was released in 2002. http://en.wikipedia.org...

Yet somehow I haven't heard of it.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
Wow. It's a great game, and it's one of the most challenging Mario games I've ever played.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
mongeesemongooseTied
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Vote Placed by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
mongeesemongooseTied
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Vote Placed by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
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Vote Placed by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
mongeesemongooseTied
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