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The Contender
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Super Smash Brothers Melee is a better competitive fighter than Super Smash Brothers 4.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/21/2015 Category: Games
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 996 times Debate No: 78770
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
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I haven't done a debate in awhile but oh well. Some things to note as well as some rules.

1. If you accept this debate and have no intention to finish it, please go somewhere else. I WILL ask people to vote for me if you reply only once or twice, and you WILL forfeit. I do this for fun, not for free ELO, which you give to me if you forfeit.

2. The rules I set here are absolute and will not be changed without prior consent from BOTH parties. If you decide to make your own rules mid-debate and I say that I did no agree, you must show proof that I did, otherwise you will forfeit all points made by using the rule you fabricated.

3. Be sportsmanlike. This isn't a debate the entire website will see, only me, you, and a few others. We're in the gaming section for crying out loud, don't take it so seriously, but do try your best.

4. I would prefer that you have sources. IGN, Gamespot, and other game reviewing websites are fine, because yes, sources do matter, as does their legitimacy.

5. Arguments are to be made in Round 2 and onward, Round 1 is for acceptance ONLY. The only exception is that I will make a story line of the smash brothers series for both games to give a little background to the debate topic. I will not be making any arguments.

Now that the rules are out of the way, I'll give a small amount of back story for judges to read and understand the history.

Super Smash Bros. Melee (which will also be referred to as Melee) is a game that was released in 2001 by Nintendo containing a wide variety of characters ranging from Mario and Luigi to Fox and Falco to Marth and Roy. All in All, Super Smash Bros. Melee has 24 characters to choose from and 29 stages to play on. Through the years, Melee has had multiple tournaments and player sponsors, examples of this is MLG, EVO, APEX, and few others. Sponsored players are EG|PPMD, C9 Mango, TSM Leffen, Crs Chillindude, and Crs Hungrybox, as well as multiple others. Since this debate is about competitive differences, I will also explain the competitive history of Melee. Since 2001, Melee has also had a competitive scene behind it, and while it was not as big as it was today, it was still something. This is when techniques like SHFFLing, L-Cancelling, wavedashing, and others were discovered. I will divulge more into these as the debate progresses if need be.

In terms of Super Smash Bros. 4 (which will also be referred to as Smash 4 or Sm4sh), the game only recently came out in 2014, and has already been to a few major fighting tournaments, namely Apex and EVO. The game features 52 characters as of right now, with potentially more on the way, and has, admittedly, far more stages than melee, with the ability to make your own included in the game, depending on whether or not you are playing Wii U or 3DS.

As a reminder, I am the Pro, meaning I am saying that Melee is better competitively than Smash 4. Thank you for reading and possibly accepting.


Hey Lulzy. We meet again.

I'm glad you formed this debate topic. As an avid Smash Bros player I couldn't possibly resist a challenge like this.

I decided to play devil's advocate here because I think it would be rather interesting to see the Sm4sh viewpoint. I mainly play Melee and PM myself but Sm4sh not so much. This'll be an interesting activity for me to try and argue from this standpoint.

I accept all of the rules presented in the first post of the debate.

Above all, have fun, and good luck.
Debate Round No. 1


I thank Con for accepting this debate, due to my past debates with him, I am fully prepared to enjoy this debate, with that said, let's get to it:

As a player who has, and does, play Smash 4 and Melee in competitive environments, I feel as though I will be able to argue for both sides of these games while solidly maintaining my support for my own side. Let's begin.

To start off, let me first lay the groundwork for what makes a game competitive. Many factors are involved, which I will name to the best of my ability. The first is spectatability. Sure, anybody can say that a game is competitive, but a majority of people will only agree if they either play themselves or can endure watching a match or round of said game. Let's use football for example. Football is a sport that you don't have to know the ins and outs of to enjoy. The most you need to know is when a team has the ball, what a touchdown and field goal are, and a few other basic, easy to understand concepts. Another example of this is a computer game called Counter-Strike, where the objective of the game for one side is to kill the enemy team, or detonate a bomb, while the other teams objective is to kill the other team or diffuse the bomb, simple to understand, easy to watch. This is a major part of spectatability. One will have issues enjoying watching a game if they understand nothing. Both Smash games have this, but it is my opinion that Melee has it more, and I aim to convince judges of this.

The first reason why I believe that Melee has higher spectatability is due to the fact that Melee is what a fighting game, in the opinion of Pro, should be. When a person hears, "fighting game" they automatically think to games like Street Fighter or Mortal Combat and think of long and complicated combos, while none Smash game really has that, Melee is the game that most Smashers would relate to combos, at least if you asked them to choose between Melee and Smash 4. Here's why: In Melee, many people, most notably a player named Mew2King, has performed countless hours in-game to learn frame data for the game ranging from how long it takes a person to recover from being hit to the length of dodge rolls [1], and he has done the same for Smash 4. During his studies, compared the existing Smash 4 data [2], Melee has MORE hit stun, which is the frame amount that a person is stuck unable to react after being hit. This enables more combos, and faster games, where Smash 4 has LESS, so a person can simply air-dodge or jump aside and take no further hits, from experience, more players and spectators enjoy seeing crazy and exciting combos. It makes them sit on the edge of their seat for the next one to happen, whereas in Smash 4, you simply don't have that level of excitement for combos because they just don't happen.

The second way a game is competitive is how much fun spectators and players have. For Melee, fans of competitive Melee has said that it's the fast speeds, crazy combos, upsets, and denials that can happen at anytime. There's a Melee saying that goes, "A skilled Roy can beat a good Fox." This relates to the fact that, despite all the joking, many characters are viable in tournaments for Melee, the stereotype is that that is incorrect, making it all the sweeter when a Roy does in fact beat a Fox, and it's happened multiple times with different characters, the most recent example being a little over a month ago at Evo, where Plup, a Samus player, was in Top 8 in Super Smash Brothers Melee when nobody would ever expect such a character. Yet another example is Borp, a Shiek main who uses absolutely NO technical skill and goes on to win tournaments. Fans, players, and spectators alike all enjoy seeing a nobody or a player thought to be weak come through and win tournaments. However, this factor doesn't seem to exist in Smash 4. Smash 4's speed is greatly LESS than that of Melee's and as shown before, has no room for insane combos. From time to time, there may be a small upset, but since the game's release, there has been one player who seems to win all of the tournaments, so much so that he's on a 40 win streak as of right now. Many people have stopped watching Smash 4 tournaments because it's not fun when you know who the winner will be, whereas in Melee, people have fun because they know that SOMEBODY different has a chance to win out of many players, and people have fun when they have a favorite that they want to win.

For comparison, Melee's peak viewers for EVO 2015 clocks in at 211,393 people [3], placing it 2nd overall in the entire event, unfortunately, I was unable to find data for Smash 4, though I remember somebody giving me a number roughly around 98,000, though you can take that with a grain of salt if you choose. (NOTE: One of the comments in source 3 states that Smash 4 was popular mostly on Saturday with 95,000 viewers, if you're interested in seeing this comment, find the name "caramell_dragon")

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Unfortunately, I am short on time, so that's all I can post. I will have more for my next round unless my opponent claims the arguments I plan to make, in which case I will attempt to rebut them. Good Luck to Con and I look forward to your response.


Thanks to Lulzy, again, for hosting this debate.

There are a few primary reasons why I’m arguing Sm4sh is a better competitive fighting game than Melee. Even though I could go down the route that Melee is NOT a better fighting game than Sm4sh and have less of a BoP to fulfill, that isn’t fun. So I’ve decided to take my own share of the BoP and increase that by trying to prove that Sm4sh is a better competitive fighting game than Melee.

Fighter Viability (Custom Moves included)

Informational Wall in Melee


Constant Patches

Online Play (especially FG and tournaments)

Let’s begin.

1. Fighter Viability

At the beginning of Melee’s lifespan, people HATED Link, especially his d-throw to up b combo. As time progressed, however, people became smarter about the game, and more AT (advanced tech) showed up. Fox, Falco, and Sheik were dominating the Melee scene in around 2005-6. When people like Armada (with his Peach), Mango (with his Puff), Hungrybox (again, with Puff) and Mew2King (with his Marth) stepped into the scene though, it shook up the rankings a ton. Every character can be played at a decent level in Melee (in fact, M2K has a pocket Pichu for that disrespect, heheh), but there was common trait that the top tiers had: speed. Whether it be on the ground running across the stage, in the air maneuvering over the battlefield, or in their attacks, punishing opponents for the simplest mistakes, those faster than the rest naturally became top tiers. Those slower had more powerful attacks, but with a faster character you could perform combos that racked up too high of a % for heavies to even matter. The top tiers today are Fox, Falco, Marth, Jigglypuff, Peach, Sheik, and Captain Falcon. Nearly every other character cannot compare to the options that these characters have. So despite Melee’s relatively large roster, only seven of those spots are somewhat viable. Pikachu is still relatively good, but Axe is the only person that plays Pikachu at a high level, so I don’t think Pikachu really counts here.

Sm4sh, on the other hand, is a completely different story. With constant patches that tweak a character’s combos, attack %s, and functionality, each character has a chance in the spotlight. Even Samus saw play in CEO 2015 when Esam picked her and ended up throwing his opponent off and winning, despite her being considered “low tier”. Leo, a 14 year old in Mexico, ended up beating Mr. R’s Sheik with Meta Knight, who many considered low tier. Now people pick Meta Knight against Sheik. Abadango constantly places well with Pacman and Wario, even placing fourth at EVO. And more recently, HoodedAltair is making HUGE progress with Ryu. SilentDoom dominates his local scene with Shulk. Some people consider these characters low tier, and some consider them high tier, but this is unimportant. The main difference between these two games is that you have more freedom when choosing a character you like. In Melee, you’re restricted to the people above or else you’re choosing to have a disadvantage against everyone else who picks top tiers. In Sm4sh, you get to choose who you want to and go far with them if you desire. Custom moves branch out this versatility even more. Personally, I’m against custom moves being implemented as competitive in Sm4sh, but you can’t deny how much variety and play style options they offer that Melee simply cannot.

2. Informational Wall

This exists in every fighting game, and it’s still a rather sad thing. To play any FG competitively, you have to be willing to put in the time and effort into learning combos against every possible matchup, how each matchup behaves, how your character approaches, zones out, or does to control the area around you. With Melee, this informational wall is FAR greater than any other fighting game, as it’s a lot faster and requires a lot more APM and tech skill. So not even the info is just a problem, physical ability can hinder your performance in Melee by a longshot. Mew2King is currently having hand problems and thus unable to perform his best (see M2K being 3 stocked on FD by Leffen at SmashCon). Mango says he only has one or two more good years left in his hands before he stops playing Fox. After a while, he will switch to Marth or someone with less tech needed. The reason Sm4sh thrives competitively is because there isn’t a whole lot you need to know about the game apart from raw fundamentals and your character’s combos to get started. In Melee, if you don’t know wave dashing, there’s no point trying to go into the competitive scene before you’ve mastered that. If you don’t know l canceling, there’s no point trying to go into the competitive scene before you’ve mastered that. If you don’t know how to double laser as Fox, there’s no point trying to go into the competitive scene before you’ve mastered that. And there’s just way too much you need to know before you can even skim the surface of competitive Melee, and that’s the downside of so many years of development. I know this affects newer players more than veterans, but it’s still highly important to the competitive life of a game. LoL thrives because it is easy to learn yet extremely hard to master. The same applies to Sm4sh competitive. For competitive Melee, there’s just way too much you need to know before you even start.

3. Patience

There’s always that one guy in Melee that just spams tech skill and doesn’t know what he’s doing in terms of fundamentals. This guy can waveshine for days yet not even know Fox’s short hop timing. The problem is that this type of player is too common in Melee. I used to be like this myself until I tried to understand what I was doing wrong. A huge problem in Melee is the presence of ATs. A newer player sees Mang0 wavedashing/landing and multi shining a ton, not to mention those double lasers. They wanna be just like him, cause he’s one of the best players in the world for this game, so obviously if he’s doing it it must be good (which it is). There’s no harm in learning tech skill, in fact it’s vital to learn it to play Melee (see point 2). But the problem comes in when people learn ONLY tech skill, and not one of the most important aspects of a fighting game: patience. Knowing when to strike and when your opponent has messed up, waiting for them to do something wrong is sometimes not present in the Melee scene. Brawl players are often considered extremely smart and good at mind games. Why? Because that’s what they focused on as there weren’t any ATs they had to worry about. Even when Brawl players transition to games like Melee or PM, they play a lot more patiently and often yield great results. Melee players are often too impatient, and impatience leads to mistakes, which leads to punishes which leads to death. This is all too common in Melee. In Sm4sh, seeing as how there aren’t many ATs (apart from foxtrot canceling and the MALLC), people don’t focus there, and instead focus on patience and waiting for the right time to attack, which is the centerpiece of the fighting game genre. While some spectators are not a fan of patience, perfectly timing that attack and shielding it in response it still a wondrous thing to watch.

4. Constant patches

I mentioned this briefly in point 1, but it needs to be addressed here too. Melee has no patches whatsoever to balance the characters. In Sm4sh, more stages, characters, and balance changes are being implemented, making for a growing, ever-expanding game. This results in glitches being passed. If Sm4sh weren’t patched at all, Sheik, Rosalina, and Diddy Kong would DOMINATE everyone else by a longshot, similar to Melee’s Fox, Falco, and Sheik. Vectoring would still be an issue, and as well, DACUS’ing would return. But unlike previous Sm4sh games, this one is constantly monitored by Nintendo. Glitches and exploits are patched out. Vectoring was changed drastically. DACUS’ing was removed. While some of this may seem negative, it overall leads to a much bigger point: support from Nintendo. Nintendo has provided very little support to Melee in its competitive endeavors and even tried to stop it, but thanks to the community backlash it continued into a thriving community. Smash 4 has no such barrier to deal with, which will help it in the long run.

5. Online Play

This is a huge benefit Melee couldn't possibly provide apart from Netplay, and Netplay is a huge legal gray area. Nintendo has decided to make online even better than in Brawl (thank God cause Brawl online was horrible), and even added in new modes that weren't just for fun. They added a "For Glory" mode, and later a "Tournament" mode, which promotes one on one skill vs skill gameplay. It doesn't seem like such a huge deal at first. But it's crucial to the life of the game to have a decent online, as nearly every major fighting game nowadays has an online feature to test your skill against opponents. Tournaments can now be hosted online instead of in person, and it would bring in more people towards the competitive side of Smash 4.

I can agree that both games share their niche, and as stated in R1 I'm playing devil's advocate. I personally believe Melee has the superior competitive scene as of now. However Smash 4 is still relatively new, and who knows how the game might change from now until then. It may become even more popular than Melee, but I don't know.

To wrap up:

- Smash 4 has a greater variety of "viable" characters that can be used competitively as well as the variety of custom moves for further strategy.
- Smash 4 lacks an enormous physical and informational wall, but both are still present. Melee's is a ton larger.
- Patience is often overlooked in Melee, which results to mindless spamming at times, and a lack of patience contrasts greatly with traditional fighting games which emphasize them.
- Constant patches indicate the support of Nintendo as well as the game's continued lifespan.
- Online play opens the door for huge competitive opportunities for Nintendo.

With that, that's my round.

Over to you, Pro.

Debate Round No. 2


I thank Con for his argument, and will proceed to give my rebuttals and counter arguments.

1. Fight Viability

Con makes an interesting point here, but it is not without it's flaws, which I will point out. Initially, Con is entirely correct in his statement that top tier characters share a speed of trait, however, that is incorrect with many of them. Let's take a look at the tier list.

Tiers number one and two are indeed Fox and Falco. While it's true that Fox is indeed quick on his feet as well as in the air, the character below him in the tier list, Falco, is actually not nearly as fast as Fox. In fact, coming from my own educated Melee standpoint, Falco's speed is one of his primary weaknesses, and other only reason he is top tier with that speed is the fact that he has an amazing combo game and what is considered by many to be the best projectile in the game. The character directly after, Jigglypuff, is also not speedy and quick, and relies more on reads and punishes to win. Hungrybox himself has been quoted as saying that he had to get good with gimmicks because his fingers aren't fast enough to perform advanced tech. Coming in sixth on the tier list? Peach. A character who's dash speed is roughly equivalent to Falco's own, if not a little faster, relies not on speed, but her spacing with turnips and her combo game. Ninth on the tier list we have Ice Climbers, a duo of characters that would not be so high on the tier list were it not for the technique of wobbling, in which the Ice Climbers grab the opponent and perform a down-tilt move, essentially locking the opponent in hitstun which can lead immediately to death, in addition to this, during EVO of this year, an Ice Climbers player found himself in to top 32 players of the entire event, an event, I might add, that had over 2000 participants, further disproving Con's argument that the top tiers are there for speed when a duo of characters that relies solely on grabbing to win can make it that far. To take this even farther, during the aforementioned EVO, a Samus player, number 11 on the tier list, found himself in TOP 8 of the ENTIRE tournament, and while that may seem like a small deal, please remember that Con stressed the idea of a tier list and it's importance as well as speed, while Samus, a character whose only good thing is the recovery, landed in Top 8 during an event with the best players in the world. Furthermore, my opponent says that you are restricted to choosing top tiers, but while I have already disproved that, I will also use Kage and Bizzaro Flame as examples that this is untrue, as they enjoy the game immensely why using Ganondorf.

And then I've already mentioned the saying, "Any skilled Roy can beat a Fox." That's tier 19 beating tier 1.

2. On the informational wall

My opponent makes the point that 2 of the top 6 players in the world right now are concerned with arthritis-like symptoms in their hands, which I mentioned just previously that the need to play Fox isn't as high as con would have you all believe. I will recycle my example with Hungrybox and how he has been a top player for YEARS, in ADDITION to being one of the most consistent of them all. An even better example further back is Mang0 himself who played Jigglypuff when he was first starting the game absolutely DESTROYING the top player of the time, Mew2King who was using Marth, not Fox. In fact, if you ever go back and look at players who have gone on massive winning spree's without having a response, the two most notable in the history of smash played almost exclusively Marth during their time, again, Not Fox. On the topic of Con saying you don't need to know much besides the fundamentals and combos, I also say this is incorrect, especially since, as I've mentioned before, Smash 4 has almost no true combos, and as I mentioned before, this slows gameplay even more due to the fact that the game is no longer an entertaining clash of players, but more a contest of who will get hit less and who will read a person more, which is exciting to begin with, but after a while quickly loses it's luster.

3. On Patience

My counter-argument here will also slightly go hand-in-hand with mentioning that Melee is fun because it's fast and fun to watch and not just watching two or four people hit another and run away. Yes, I admit that Smash 4 does emphasize patience over aggression, but the issue arises that Smash 4 is a game that heavily rewards defensive play, and as such, forces players to stay in a passive mind set when playing. This can lead to long games that neither the players nor spectators want to watch. The game DOES put extra focus on predicting your opponent and punishing them for it, but it makes no difference when both players are predicting each other, which results in them just running forward and then jumping backwards, the limits to this are stretched so far sometimes that even a match timer, which runs for 5 minutes in length, have been stalled out by a player unwilling to give up an advantage, in fact, it's worth mentioning that this has happened more in the year Smash 4 has been out than in the 14 that Melee has been out, whereas with Melee, there is indeed some level of patience there with mind games and reading, but then you also get to see the awesome combo and punish that follows, which is something that won't happen in Smash 4 because there ARE no good combos to punish with that don't last for more than 2 hits. If you need any more proof that a crowd enjoys a beat-down more than a timer stall, watch any EVO match for both games and you'll see just how much louder the Melee crowd will get. Of course, that may just be because the Melee crowd is bigger, since many others consider it a better game overall. And to counter Con's specific sentence, he says, "In Sm4sh, seeing as how there aren't many ATs, people don't focus there, and instead focus on patience and waiting for the right time to attack." Con mentions later in his argument the existence of WiFi battles, what he fails to mention is that in many of these battles, you will usually either be paired against a person who is far better, or far worse, and even than, in many cases the game is just trying to attack, only for it to be shielded against, and then both players resetting, where it starts all over again.

4. On constant patches.

Con is right in saying that Smash 4 does have more patches, but he is wrong in saying that Melee has received none. Melee actually has three different versions, in order, they are 1.0.0, 1.0.1, and 1.0.2. Another proof of this is in the tier lists for the two different regions of Melee. While the PAL version [1] is version 1.0.2, the NTSC version [2] is 1.0.0. Another thing worth noting that Con fails to mention is this section is that Melee recently gained Nintendo's support around the time that Smash 4 came out, evidence for this is that Nintendo helped to Sponsor Melee and Smash 4 at Apex as well as EVO this year for both games.

5. Online play

This will likely be my favorite section in my response this time for a very good reason.

While it is very true that Melee has only netplay to substitute for online play, it's also true that Smash 4's online leaves very much to be desired. Nintendo made online play for Smash 4 be from player to player instead of having a server based somewhere for players to connect too. This can result in terrible connections and laggy fights, making players angry over the game because of reasons like some sort of lag. Smash 4 also has no balancing mechanics, as mentioned before in my arguments, you are highly likely to run into a player who is either far better of far worse than yourself, with minimal chance of running into an equally skilled player, and even then, what's to stop the match from lagging out or becoming unplayable for some reason? While Melee has only netplay, which also has all of these issues, Melee was also not meant to be played online, while Smash 4 WAS, and even though it was made for online, it still has these issues.

Also, earlier, I mentioned the fact that Melee has been around for 14 years vs the single year of Smash 4, yet Con states that the online, skill based play is crucial to a long life of a game, I disagree. Brawl had terrible online play but still kept a growing community for years, and in fact, still does, just by watching the recent Brawl matches on VGBootCamp. In addition to that, Melee has no real online besides netplay, and it's been one of the top competitive games for years. Another competitive game that gets a lot of attention is Project M, which ALSO has no way of getting online since Nintendo shut down WiFi services for the Wii. It is the strong opinion of Pro that online is, in fact, not needed for a game's longevity, espicially in fighter games where matches are much more intense in face to face, especially when one considers the sociological effects to the player to have a real environment of people like themselves to play with versus an almost strictly online community.

Seeing as how I only have about 600 character left, I can say no more in this post. I give it over to Con and wish him luck in his next response.



I’d like to thank opponent for his response as well as the time and effort he put into his response. This debate it extremely fun for me, and I assume it is for my opponent as well.

First of all, character viability. I feel this is the most important topic to discuss in this round so I will put more emphasis on this section.

I believe opponent didn’t fully read it when I mentioned “speed”. It wasn’t just ground speed I referred to. I referred to “Whether it be on the ground running across the stage, in the air maneuvering over the battlefield, or in their attacks, punishing opponents for the simplest mistakes, those faster than the rest naturally became top tiers.” Opponent mentions Jigglypuff, Falco, and Peach as counters to this. Jigglypuff was who I was specifically referring to for aerial maneuverability, as her air game is one of the strongest in the game. She has a great air speed and can recover from pretty much anywhere horizontally due to her multiple jumps and Pound. Falco has speed with his attacks and combo game. One hit from his shine can often guarantee tons of % damage on the opponent. He has fast options and combos, and has one of the highest fall speeds in the game, making his combos even faster. Even Icies and Samus can be considered fast, as Icies have the second longest wavedash in the game [1], and Samus has her super wavedash [2]. Opponent might bring up Luigi and Mewtwo as being relatively low tier yet still fast, but they’re low tier for their lack of options against other top tiers (apart from M2’s FD chain grab, I’ll go into chain grabs later). One thing to note though is my opponent’s saying “A skilled Roy can beat a good Fox.” This is true at lower levels of play. However, when it comes to the best of the best players, Roy has little to no chance. This is due to many factors, such as fall speed and lack of a tipper compared to Marth, to name a few. In low tier matches, this won’t matter too much, as the Roy can still chain grab spacies and combo them easily due to his fast fall speed and similarities to Marth’s chaingrab. However, in higher levels of play, Marth is clearly superior. If the player knows how to space and utilize Marth’s WD and combos, Marth will be a far better pick as he deals more damage with tippers, has a longer wavedash, higher jump for multiple aerials in one jump (SH double fair namely) and can overall deal with the spacies better. Roy has no tipper to easily deal with spacies and spacing and has to get up close and can result in getting chain grabbed and punished greatly due to his high fall speed. So while yes, “a skilled Roy can beat a good Fox”, at higher levels of play, at near equal skill level, Fox will almost always win, further demonstrating fighter inviability at top level competitive Melee.

In Sm4sh EVO, for comparison, the top 8 used 10 different characters. [3] This isn’t really something I’ll spend too much time into in future rounds, because no matter how opponent tries to argue this, it’s obviously true that Sm4sh offers player and fighter variety and viability that Melee cannot, despite low tiers placing high such as Samus (and the only reason Samus can is because of her zoning ability and punishes VS Fox/Falco, with nearly every other character she cannot perform as well. In the top 8 at EVO for Melee, Armada, Mang0, PPMD, and Leffen used Fox or Falco for at least 1 match). It's an uphill battle and it's a waste of text space to try and argue it.

2. Informational Wall/Combos/Patience

Tying this into one category cause I felt the need to.

I’ll start out with Hungrybox and compare him to Mango. Hungrybox plays extremely defensive and waits for opportunities for his opponent to punish, similar to S4. Mango goes all in on his opponents, with his aggressive ability he is easily able to deal tons of damage to his opponent. The reason Mango doesn’t like Hungrybox (even Leffen doesn’t like him to an extent) is because of his playstyle. In fact, in EVO Grand Finals 2015, Armada VS Hbox, on Yoshi’s Hbox repeatedly falls down and grabs the ledge, waiting for Armada to approach him, while Armada was laser camping on the other side. Hbox explains this as “playing to win”, and I’m sure the same can be made for Armada. Apart from going totally against the fast nature that my opponent describes normally, both players are waiting it out. Why? Because they know aggression won’t win all the time, and this is very similar to S4. As opponent mentions, Hbox’s tech is not the best, and he uses Jigglypuff to win. Why? Because Hbox uses patience as opposed to huge tech, again, representing the nature of a fighting game, and this is what I think opponent fails to understand. You do not need to employ fancy combos that last for 5-10 seconds that can’t be broken out of, what you need is patience, and Hbox waiting for the right time to strike embodies this. He will probably never come close to doing anything Mango or Leffen can do with Fox. But he still has patience, and even on a character like Jiggly, that can win him games. While the crowd may not like it compared to what Melee normally is, it’s a necessary part of fighting games, and as patience is more of the major focal point of a fighting game.

Also, opponent commonly mentions the lack of combos. While there nowhere near as many "true combos" and more of combos that can be broken out of, this does not mean AT ALL that combos are not present. While these combos are not true, and DI, airdodging, and teching are all applicable to some, Sm4sh thrives off of read based combos. In the video I linked, it shows some combos, most of which are not true, rather, it employs reactions to certain teach, reads based on airdodges or rolls, or even some true ones to further extend these combos. Combos in Sm4sh are not one huge hit, which is what opponent points out quite frequently. Rather, Sm4sh has many, smaller hit combos that have the potential to chain into larger ones.


It is my fault that I said "Melee has had no patches" as it is untrue. But I neglected to note the different versions of Melee simply because I thought we were referring to specifcally the NTSC version, as a majority of this debate is about the competitive sides of both games, and the competitive side of Melee primarily takes place in the USA, with very little elsewhere. I know Heir II The Throne was a huge European tournament recently, but that had many problems associated with it, unfortunately. However, HII's not relevant.

In regards to support from Nintendo, while Nintendo has supported Melee this year, let's not count out the events Nintendo did to raise awareness for Sm4sh, such as the Invitational at E3, where top players such as ZeRo and Hbox were invited to test out Smash 4. No such event existed for Melee, nor has Nintendo made any attempt to showcase something with top players. So while Nintendo has supported Melee, S4 is undeniably receiving more support as of now.


The reason Brawl still had a community despite bad online was because it left too much to be desired. Opponent mentions some of the problems with S4 online, and they were amplified a ton in Brawl. "Terrible connections and laggy fights", to be precise. The difference between S4 Online is superior is because the online is actually PLAYABLE. Either with friends or for glory, connections have vastly improved. Even with P2P connections, S4 still has surprisingly good connections. Opponent does mention lag, which is a common issue, as well as the lack of a ranking system. In For Fun, it doens't matter as much as it's, well, for fun. For Glory however, I admit, is hurt with the lack of a ranking system. A decent alternative, however, is the ranking system on, which opponent mentioned in his argument. It's a wonderful tool that helps by creating a ranking system in which other people can play online and face each other, which is pretty important. Smash 4, also, still retains those 1v1, person to person connections at tournaments. They aren't gone because of online. Rather, online allows for another medium for people to test their skill against other players and learn new tricks. Tournaments are a separate entity altogether, and they still retain those internse player to player connections.

That's all for my argument this round. Over to Pro.


Debate Round No. 3


Unfortunately, I had fully intended to respond this weekend for my final round. Unfortunately, I was slammed with two days of work at 12 hours each for a total of 24 hours over the entire weekend, to add to that, I had multiple assignments due for school and as a result, have not had enough time to type my own response.

Personally, I'm angry at myself for this, and I'm also sad because I have to forfeit this round, and likely the debate. My sincerest apologies to Con, it's my fault for not having the time set to complete the debate.


We can resume this debate another time.
I thank Pro for his effort and his time he put into this debate.
Do not vote on this debate. It shall be continued at another time.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Valkrin 1 year ago
3 more chars and I would've gone over the limit, LOL.
Posted by Proving_a_Negative 1 year ago
Melee in my opinion :P
Posted by Lulzy 1 year ago
The Wii U and 3DS are the same except for a few game features.
Posted by ATR2004 1 year ago
Too bad I only played woo u edition I would love to challenge you
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