Superman can Destroy Goku
Debate Rounds (5)
First round is a simple acceptance and a few quick facts like I have done. I'm not very familiar with Goku, but I will be allowing Super Saiyan God.
Rules are simple, you must cite your source, if it is wikipedia then you must go to the sources that are at the bottom of wikipedia and cite the one that has it.
Second, the movies will not count as they are part of the cinematic universe and I will be focusing on the comic book universe as it will allow me to not have to deal with the crappy Man of Steel movie that would have been better directed by Michael Bay.
Third, you may use anything in Dragon Ball Z, so long as you stay with a single time line and don't use different areas. This is mainly because I don't want fan fiction.
Fourth, power levels can't be used as even the creators call them unreliable and have been come an inside joke with no real meaning.
Also, in your first round you must give a brief history of Goku, as I will of Superman.
Finally, anything that involves these two are fair game; You can cite weaknesses, errors in the writing, and over all flaws in the character ad why yours would win. I will be using post-crisis superman, and as such, that means I can use anything after Infinity Crisis.
Superman was born on Krypton and shipped to Earth as the lone survivor of the planet as it was destroyed shortly after his departure. He grow up on Earth, harnessing his powers and keeping his identity of Kent Clark separate from his Superman identity. H eventually joins the Justice League of America.
Because of his eternal life on Earth, Superman grows to watch all his loved ones die off, from Lois Lane to the Justice League of America members. At the end of the 21st Century, Superman gave his son the responsibility to protect Earth like he had done for nearly 100 years. With that said, he traveled till the 700th Century to gain incomprehensible abilities and broke the source wall.
This led to him learning from the source who, in the DC Universe, is omni-everything. He then traveled back to Earth and received all of his lineages powers, such as when the 67th Century Superman took married the Queen of the 5th Dimension, giving all Superman descendants the power of super-science and manipulation of reality.
After the 300 years following his return to Earth, he sent himself to his new Fortress of Solitude located in the center of our Sun. This became known as Sun-Dipped. He eventually recreated Lois Lane and created a New Krypton with all its former inhabitants.
Roshi destroyed the moon with PL fewer than 200
King Piccolo stated he will destroy 1/43 of the earth with PL fewer than 300
Piccolo Jr destroyed the moon with PL fewer than 500, without even powering up
Nappa effortlessly destroyed entire region just by lifting his fingers, with PL around 5000
Vegeta fired Earth busting beam, which was stopped by Goku, vegeta had PL 18 000.
Since the Earth was saved by goku, and thus remeined undestroyed, we cannot be absolutly sure if he was really able to destroy it, but consider it he was massievly more powerful than moon busters, I think we should take his statement seriously.
what proven moon busters think about Vegeta and Nappa:
Frieza effortlessly destroyed planet Vegeta, with PL 530 000. Planet Vegeta had gravity 10x larger than Earth, which almost certainly means it was much bigger or much denser than the earth.
SSJ Goku had a Power level of 150 000 000.
Frieza also destroyed a Planet Namek, in his final form,
but after this they stoped showing high end feats.
It is clear that their power was increasing constantly, but we had no feat or statement from which we could precisely determine by how much.
SSJ Goku ( on namek)
That is until Cell stated his controversial solar system busting statement, which was confirmed in the official DBZ handbook.
Was he really able to destroy a solar system, and what does it even mean to destroy a solar system?
He said " I have gathered enough energy to destroy a solar system" which is a statement that can be interpreted in several ways.
1.He can create an explosion big enough to cover entire solar system and destroy everything within it's range.
2.He can destroy the sun with 99% of his power, and then use the rest 1% of his power to destoy planets and moons.
3. He can destroy the sun, which would then explode and destroy the rest oft he solar system
4. He can destroy the sun, which is technically the end of the solar system.
We know that character like Frieza in his weakest form with PL 530 000 are casual planet busters, and we also know that SPC is incomperably more powerful than him.
Frieza first form (PL 530 000)<
Or in other words
Casual planet busters<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
So how do we quantify this massive power difference between casual planet busters and Cell?
I think that accepting his statement and the statement made in the official DBZ handbook is the best method we currently have.
If we decide to ignore the statemets made by Cell and his creator Akira Toriyama, what better method do we have to quantify this massive power difference between SPC and casual planet busters? Clearly we can't just ignore something like that, and put him in the same category with first form Frieza?
its translation :
"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"
In the end kid Buu effortlessly fired an earth busting attack, which was easly countered and stoped by Vegeta, who apparently focus it's explosion.
Then Buu, created an energy ball so powerful that both Vegeta (who had access to SSJ2) and Goku (who had excess to SSJ3) were unable to stop .So the Earth end up destroyed
List of statemntsI've seen people asking, if all top tier DBZ characters have enough power to wipe out a planet with a fraction of a percent of their power, how come most of their explosions are only mountain or city level?
To me, obvious answer seem to be that they focus their explosions on a smaller area, but they remain equally powerful
Bassically, just because explosion is smaller it doesn't mean it is less powerful.
Self destruction is perfect example of concreted explosion.
We know Vegeta used his entire power to peerform this attack, yet the explosion was much smaller then a moon explosion
So was the explosion focused or is this the limit for SSJ2 Majin Vegeta?
Nappa effortlessly destroyed whole region, but when he used his most powerful attack attack the explosion was incomparably smaller
Here, I think, Vegeta focused his attack, to prevent Earth from being destroyed.
There was one time Superman was destroyed by an atttack that didnt even destroy the city.
Do you REALLY still think Superman could destroy Goku???
P.S: I am not fullyy fluent on english
B. Power Levels have been declared pointless and are only useful to show how villains always under estimate their opponents.
C. Goku may have stopped the destruction of the earth, but Superman has held a miniature black hole, as seen in JLA #77. This was even before the DC One Million mini-series in which he gains the powers of the Fifth Dimensional Imps, who have been said to hold Infinity Power. This is said in the 1st issue of the DC One Million mini-series when the 853rd Century Superman tells the original Superman of one of his ancestors married the 5th Dimensional Imp Queen. It was previously stated in an earlier DC Series of these powers.
D. Even if you take away Superman's 5th Dimension abilities, between the 22nd and 700th centuries, Superman amplified his powers, even breaking the source wall and studying under the mentor of the Source. Simply breaking the Source wall has been done by over a dozen, but coming out alive has been done by only Superman and the strongest known villain, Spectre.
E. Superman spent 15,000 years in his Fortress of Solitude, the center of our sun, which brought the now named Superman Prime levels to god status, being able to create Lois Lane from nothing, but used her DNA to make her a GOD and immortal.
F. Finally, he created New Krypton from a single rock.
Nik0 forfeited this round.
Superman is known to be susceptible to magic. This however is not the case if we are talking about Superman at full form. As mentioned previously, the marriage between the 5th dimensionAL Queen Imp led to many new attributes. The biggest is his ability to manipulate time and space, even creating universes if he pleases, and though he isn't shown doing so, the Imps have in multiple comic books. But I have lost track as Superman gained something far better, he lost his magic weakness. This means that he doesn't have to worry about strategy as much for he doesn't have to counter magic of any kind.
Next, is Superman and kryptonite. Superman crested all of Krypton from one rock at the time of the planets explosion 15,000 years prior. That means he was not only able to create a large quantity of kryptonite with no physical affects, but also that he brought roughly 10 billion souls back from shear will from beyond the Source Wall, more on that later.
In DC 1 Million #4, Superman was able to destroy a whole sun within no time with only the lost Green Lantern Ring, which is powered by the wearers willpower. He had what is known as the most powerful weapon in the universe and made used it to destroy an artificial sun which 20th Century Green Lantern was barely holding in the explosion.
Seeing how Green Lantern's willpower is strong enough to hold a huge explosion for several minutes, his willpower is obviously strong. This though is dwarfed by Superman Prime, talked about above. But even with out all these powers,
Nik0 forfeited this round.
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To begin with you must look at the source and the beginning. How did Superman Prime come to be?
Quoting sources from the Superman Prime wiki and the official comic i can
"The legend began in the last years of the second millennium anno Domini with a birth not of this Earth. That child was Kal-El of Krypton, the sole survivor of a cataclysm that destroyed one of the most advanced and ancient civilizations in the galaxy. Kal-El was raised as a normal human child by the Kansas farmers Jonathan Kent and Martha Kent. It was their love and care that would transform one of the world's most powerful individuals from the product of a cold alien civilization into one of the most noble and charismatic men alive. Under the Earth-name of Clark Kent he was a reporter for the Metropolis Daily Planet where he worked with his future wife Lois Lane. Kal-El is however more widely known by the name, Superman. It was as the costumed "super-hero" Superman (an identity designed to preserve his privacy as Clark Kent and to protect his adopted family) that Kal-El had his biggest impact. He was the leader of Earth's superhuman (and often much of the human) community and served as the role model that all subsequent heroes were measured by. In his career he saved the world from the threats of interstellar invasion, natural disaster and the continued activities of a cadre of "super-villains" (including the original, the early Bizarros and the sentient anti-sun Solaris). During this time Superman rose to the height of his activities, married his beloved Lois Lane, served as leader to the Justice League and acted as mentor to a new generation of heroes. The vast Kryptonian powers that served to make him Superman also made Kal-El virtually immortal. He would watch as he out lived his parents, then his friends and then even his wife Lois. Still serving as the world's foremost champion he began to slow as the sadness of the losses began to mount. Legend then tells how close to the end of the twenty first century, Superman Prime (as history will remember as Kal-El) passed the responsibilities of being Superman to his heir, Superman Secundus, and created the Superman Dynasty. Then one day he left Earth.
The Return to His travels lasted from the 21st Century, and ended somewhere at the turn of the 700th Century. During his travels, he acquired vast abilities and skills from every being he meet and gained perfection over all the abilities he received (when he broke through the Source Wall he even studied under the Source itself, meaning he could have a portion of the Source's power or more, the true extent of abilities he received from the Source are unknown). When he returned he forged a covenant with his descendants, he would bestow upon them a small fraction of his power as long as they served for truth and justice. He also gained the abilities of his lineage and magnified them with his own power (for example, the Superman of the 67th century married the queen of the 5th Dimension, GZNTPLZK, which in turn gave Superman Prime the abilities and powers of a 5th Dimension Imp). After the covenant he left and returned to his fortress of solitude in the center of the Super Sun."
Whoa that's some impressive backstory, but how much of it is actually fact? Lets look at scans and such to see how powerful he is technically.
First off, Superman Prime powers have come into question by some people, some of which doubt the power he possesses, here are some common critiques.
"Superman Prime couldn't even bring Lois Lane back without her DNA."
This in not true, Superman Prime was fully able to bring back Lois Lane without her DNA. He just needed it to put her into a god like body like himself. He later proves this by recreating all of planet Krypton and its inhabitants with only a Rock. This shows that Superman is able to create not one but 10 billion people from no DNA. Also, Krypton is similar in size to the Earth, so by calculating the number of atoms in a square meter on average, and how big the Earth is, we can assume that he effectively created or transported 47102641.4373024*10E-11 atoms. This is roughly 4,710,264,143,730,240,000 atoms, rounded to nearly 5 Quintilian atoms.
Also you may ask, "But still, doesn't this prove that he couldn't recreate something out of nothingness?" Fair enough, but i must remind you that this is when he first used his new found powers, which probably means he was getting used to them. He proves different later on.
Other Criticism and skepticism includes
"Why did Superman need to use the Green Lantern Ring to defeat Solaris?"
Short Answer no. Solaris was already extremely weakened and therefore it is extremely possible that Superman didn't want to waste any Solar power that he didn't need to. Plus on top of the fact that the Green Lantern in the most powerful Weapon and the Universe and that the strongest of willpower can use its power to "shape reality" I definitely wouldn't put this thing at a low level.
And last but no least on the criticism is that
"Superman Prime doesn't have any feats back up his supposed Omnipotence"
This is where i can somewhat agree, but that's what the next portion of this list is gonna show.
FEATS AND FACTS
First we have to talk about how Superman Prime came to be and where he got all of his extra powers from. Surely 15,000 years in the Sun wouldn't make him a Universal or even Mutiversal level character. For that we have to look at his power sources.
First, The 5th Dimension
For those of you that don't know, the 5th Dimensional Imps, are Imps... from the 5th Dimension... go figure. They are beings with extreme power at their disposal that put them above nearly all cosmic beings in the Multiverse. They have shown to be able to destroy dimensions by laughing and creating entire Universes by snapping their fingers. They surely have a lot of power under their belt. But what does this have to do with Superman Primes power.
Simple, this is where one of his main power sources come from. You see one of Superman's descendants actually married the Queen of the 5th Dimensional imps and not only was able to have the lineage of Superman having some 5th Dimensional powers, as mentioned here.
In fact every a descendant of Superman from this gained 5th Dimensional imp powers, and one Superman was a 5th Dimensional Imp.
But also gave much of the Superman lineage afterwards immunity to Magic.
Also Mxy, the Multiversal level god who did all that crazy stuff? He worked for Superman Prime later on.
Seeing how powerful 5th Dimensional imps are, the fact that not only was Superman given a lot of their powers but also the fact that a 5th Dimensional imp actual looks up to Superman means a lot. Look up Worlds Funnest for reference to how powerful they are.
This alone could give evidence to Superman Prime being majorly cosmic in power and control, but there still a lot of space left to go.
2.) The Source Wall
Superman mentions in one of his tales that he "Crashed the Gates of Heaven" to find all the answers.
He also mentions that he went to the edge of the Multiverse and Back, this could mean only one thing. He went into the Source Wall.
What is the Source Wall you ask? Simple, it is the wall that is supposed to separate the creator of all Reality with the Multiverse at large. It s set towards the edge of the Universe (New Earth) and is beyond the Promethea Galaxy. It isn't all to hard to access, as several have done before to gain its amazing power, that of which is beyond all others in the Multiverse, but at a terrible cist. None has ever reached the Source Wall itself and lived to leave, not even majorly god level beings. Only 2 have ever in DC managed to do it. Well get to the other one later.
The fact remains that Superman Prime apparently not only got into the Source Wall, which isn't that hard, but escaped with his life and apparently some of the power and knowledge of it. This is extremely impressive and does prove that Superman could be nigh-omnipotent. Why?
Well Spectre has those powers, and he didn't train under the Presence, while Superman Prime did.
This is basically as far as i need to go to prove that Superman Prime is not just Superman that spent 15,000 years in the Sun and came up Universal Level. There's a lot more to it than that.
But i feel that i should show some more feats and such and explain why Superman Prime is considered so OP as anyone can be.
1.) Superman Prime apparently made his own Universe.
2.) Superman Prime could also stop Universes from collapsing and save lives.
Now there are those who would say that, "Well just because he said MY Universe doesn't mean its his" Well that is debatable, but still the overemphasis on MY does leave some questions, i wouldn't say My Earth if i didn't have something in direct affiliation with it, but the way he said MY was that he either owned it or had direct control over it, again, both are direct possibilities.
The thing however that makes this scan count is what Superman Prime says afterwards "Things were moving so fast even I couldn't stop your reality from collapsing" This basically proves that Superman Prime states he can stop a Universe from collapsing which in turn could mean that he could do more like rebuild or recreate. This scan however is the only one whee i seems this direct comparison is made, since there us no scan of Superman affecting Multiverses or anything as OP as that, though the nonchalant way he says how he could stop realities means he could do more... but again that's based on the Power Sources and some speculation.
Nik0 forfeited this round.
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