The Instigator
olle15
Pro (for)
Losing
43 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Winning
86 Points

Superman is one of the best cartoon heroes of all time.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/7/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,454 times Debate No: 1479
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (18)
Votes (33)

 

olle15

Pro

Superman is the base for just about all modern day superheroes and villains. Superman's always been one of the most popular heroes thats why every hero is modeled after him. Here's the list of his powers so you can see for your self.

1) Heat vision Just about every Superhero has laser eyes now.

2) Super strength even spider man has that and he sucks

3) Flight theres only about 12 heroes who don't have that.

4) Super speed enough said

5) Secret Identity this isn't really a power but every hero has one

As you can see he basically made the other heroes. Infact it was because of him the word Superhero came into being the name for superheroes in comics were vigilantes. Also Superman was the one to start the now popular tradition of tights.
Logical-Master

Con

Good afternoon. First, I would like to thank my opponent for starting this debate and allowing any other member to enter. In today's round, I will do my best to disprove the notion that Superman is one of the best cartoon heroes of all time. With formalities out of the way, let us proceed onto my opponent's case. :D

My opponent begins his argument by stating that every super hero is modeled after Superman. I'm sure he is not being literal, but I still find question with his claim and would like for him to name at least 9 other popular super heroes that are modeled after Superman. And just so we're clear by what I mean by the term popular, I would like these heroes to be heroes that have their own successful cartoon shows (since my opponent has listed Superman as being one of the best cartoon heroes of all time).

Concerning the 5 similarities my opponent lists:

1) Not at all. Most superheroes of today are street level heroes that have a modicum of powers (or rather no powers at all). In fact, in the successful Justice League Series (before it went on to becoming Justice League unlimited), Superman was the only hero to have laser eyes. Heck, even when it went on to Unlimited, there still weren't that many heroes who had this power.

2) I agree (not about the Spiderman part).

3) I would agree that most heroes have flight, however, I can list more than 12 who don't.

-Spiderman -C
-Batman -C
-Flash -C
-Punisher -C
-Nightwing -C
-Wolverine -C
-Cyclops -C
-Beast -C
-Gambit -C
-Aquaman -C
-Nightcrawler -C
-Leonardo (TMNT) -C
-Raphael (TMNT) -C
-Michelangelo (TMNT) -C
-Donatello (TMNT) -C
-Captain America -C
-Spider-girl - C
-Daredevil -C
-Mr Fantastic -C
-Invisible Woman -C
-The Thing -C
-The Question -C
-V
-Luke Cage
-Spiderwoman
-The Hulk -C
-Optimise Prime -C
-He-Man -C

As one can see, I listed more than twice the number my opponent stated there to be. All the ones mark with "C" have been involved in a successful cartoon series. I could list MUCH more, but I believe this is enough to disprove my opponent's claim. To add fuel to the fire, I would like to add that the original golden age Superman did not possess the ability to fly; he could only leap great bounds. In fact, it was a hero created after him (and who was once more popular) that had the ability of flight; Captain Marvel had the ability to fly.

4) Nope, there aren't many who have this ability. Using the above list, I would only need to remove one hero.

5) Every hero does not have a secret identity. I'll list 10 heroes to show that my opponents claim is incorrect.

-Punisher.
-Optimus Prime.
-Wonder Woman
-The Hulk
-Wolverine
-Cyclops
-Leonardo (TMNT)
-Michelangelo (TMNT)
-Raphael (TMNT)
-Donatello (TMNT)

Although I merely listed 10, I could easily have listed far more.

Basically, my opponent is arguing from a standpoint that similarity is the basis for popularity; if a writer borrowed his/her ideas from another writer, the original writer must be more popular. However, this idea is not true. For example, the manga writer/artist Masashi Kishimoto based his manga "Naruto" off of some of the ideas presented in Akira Toriyama's manga "Dragon Ball Z." By the affirmative side's logic, you'd think that Akira Toriyama's manga would be the more popular and compelling of the two fictional stories, but it isn't. Even in the US, the series Naruto is better accepted than the series "Dragon Ball Z." In relation to the argument, I would agree that some (not most or all) were inspired by Siegal's Superman, but that doesn't make Superman more popular or a better story altogether.

Finally, I would like to claim that contrary to my opponent's point of view, heroes like Superman are not what the audience of today enjoys the most. Evidence: In comparison of box office receipts, the first modern Spiderman film (Spiderman) easily surpasses the first modern Superman film (Superman Returns). The problem with Superman is that the general cartoon/comic book/moviegoer audience simply can't relate to him. The guy has so many powers and so little internal struggles, that he hardly makes for an interesting hero. Basically, if the protagonists can essentially do anything, his problems won't be that difficult to solve. On the other hand, Spiderman is a hero cartoon/comic book/movieogers are able to relate to. His lack of powers as well as his unlimited number of problems are to thank for that.

I now stand ready for my opponent's rebuttal.
Debate Round No. 1
olle15

Pro

Hello Logical-Master first of all I would like to thank you for excepting my debate and obviously from the way you completely demolished my first argument you a debater of high quality and I am honored that you would except a beginners challenge. I was in a rush before but no more obviously I have to refine my thinking for you. Anyway let's jump back in.

First of all my opponent quoted me on saying every superhero is modeled after superman but that is wrong what I said was that most modern day heroes are modeled after Superman and I still stand by that and furthermore when I say modeled after Superman I mean they have at least a few of their traits are from Superman.

1.Capitan America one of marvels first attempts at creating a superman figure of their own.
2.the Iron Man another bad attempt to make their own superman
3.The Hulk has his strength (also most people did not know his true identity depending on which story you look at.)
4.Booster Gold dc Comics
5.J'onn J'onzz
6.Power girl
7.Thor
8.Diana, Princess of Themyscira AKA Wonder Woman
9.Supergirl

There are your 9 heroes. (but I could have added more)

As for the street heroes you mentioned they are just that street heroes If they don't have powers they are not superheroes because the definition for a Superhero is: Someone who has superhuman powers and uses them to fight crime or evil. This would mean people like Batman, Nightwing, and He-man are not counted as Superheroes, and things like all off the (TMNT) and Optimus Prime seeing as they are not human and you can't have superhuman powers if you are not human and if you don't have superhuman powers you can't be a superhero.

Now I would like to stop momentarily to mention that you listed Supergirl as non flying but she can just watch justice league unlimited.

Though I was not basing my opinion I can and now I will. You've said that superman is not what the world of today wants. If that is so then why on my last trip to google Superman got more hits than almost every other major Hero.
And you talk about the movie as if that alone shows how popular it is. Wrong. The movie just sucked even I say so it was more like a corny chick flick what you should look at is the hype the movie created before it came out before we found out the move sucked a lot of people wanted to go.

Then there is the death and life of Superman a short comic in which he finally dies as hinted in the title and this comic broke the record and sold more than the bible the only one to do so and to this day even though its old it still sells a record number of copies. It was so popular it was turned into a book and just recently a movie and again it broke a record this time it was the most movies sold for a straight to DVD movie. And all of my facts about the comic you can check by getting the book.

I await your rebuttal.
Logical-Master

Con

First, my opponent states that he never suggested that every hero was modelled after Superman, but if you scroll back to his statements in the first round, these are his exact words: "Superman's always been one of the most popular heroes thats why every hero is modeled after him." Pay special attention to the last four words.

Now, lets look at my opponents list of characters:

1. The only similarities Superman and Captain America have is that they value America to a great extent. However, the modern day Superman has a specific interest in the entire world rather than merely the US. With that said, one must note that Captain America has no real super powers and barely stronger than Batman (since the super soldier serum merely pushes him to the pinnacle of human physical perfection). Their origin stories are certainly much different in that Steve Rogers started out as an average joe with no special background whereas Clark Kent was beamed from a dying planet only to start out as a super hero while rather young with practically no real reason to use his powers to be a super hero.

2. Iron Man and Superman are quite different. Iron Man (whose real name is Tony Stark) is a rich earthling who used his uncanny intelligence to create a special battle suit for the sake of justice. During most of his comic book history, he served as a bad role model to children due to his tendency to irresponsibly get drunk. This has cost him battles in the past and has endangered innocents. To top it all off: In the recent Civil War storyline, he served as the antagonist as he had other heroes hunted down and locked in an inhumane prison within another dimension. Modelled after Superman? No chance.

3. The Hulk has super strength, but how does that make him modelled after Superman? The Hulk has always been best known as a misunderstood hero whose powers activated when burned with rage. He certainly doesn't have a plethora of super powers as Superman does. In the current comics, his identity is public knowledge.

4. Booster Gold did not have his own tv series and only appeared in one episode of the Justice League. This conflicts with the conditions I had set. That said, even if they didn't, Booster Gold is hardly similar to Superman.

The information concerning Booster Gold's origin can be read here: http://en.dcdatabaseproject.com...(Michael_Carter)

Like Superman's? Nope. Booster Gold gains his powers from the artifacts he stole from a museum in the future. He is basically like iron man in that he uses gizmos to fight crime.

5. The Martian Man Hunter is comparable to Batman in terms of personality. He only shares Superman's number of powers (in fact, he has even more) as well as the theme of being the last of his species. However, don't let this fool you, as the idea that Superman have a myriad of powers was influenced by a hero who had surpassed his popularity at the time (Captain Marvel).

6. Incorrect. Power Girl was based on Super girl as she was created around the time the evil twin theme was well received in the comic book community. By the way, in the animated series, she is received as a villain, thus another reason she cannot be placed on this list.

7. The only version of Thor that serves a main role in an animated series is the Ultimate version. This version of Thor only process Super strength and the ability to summon mystical bolts. Not only that, but he is actually responsible and unkempt; his values are no different than Iron Man's were for a number of years. Although even if we were to use the normal Thor from the Marvel 616 universe, he'd only be similar Superman in the aspect of strength and speed. When it comes to personality , other powers, and origin, they are hardly similar.

8. My opponent is correct on this one as the modern version of Wonder Woman seen in the animated series (JL and JLU) was made to be the female equivalent to Superman.

9. My opponent is correct on this one as well.

So, out of the nine heroes my opponent presented, only two heroes were acceptable.

My opponent then tells you that you my comments concerning street heroes be discounted as they are not superheroes. However, if you look at the resolution, it states that Superman is the best cartoon hero of all time. Notice that there is nothing about "super heroes" listed.

My opponent states that I listed supergirl as a hero that could not fly, but by checking my list above, we can see that I clearly did not do that.

Proof? For a quick method of proving that I didn't list supergirl, highlight the list concerning characters who could fly and click control + F. After you do that, type in the word "girl." You'll notice that Spider girl is the only character with girl in her name.

Next, my opponent attempts to prove Superman's popularity through claiming that Superman has the most hits based on his google search, but we surely cannot base popularity on interest based on results in google's search engine.

Firstly, the means of getting these results is rather flawed as the search results don't always bring up exactly what is placed into the query. For instance, a guy could type in something along the lines of "Batman would kick Superman's scrawny butt", but could get search results that lead to a website that has the words Superman and Batman, but not the words "would", "kick" , "scrawny", and "butt." In other words, search engines can be used to find out the level of interest one has in a topic, but whether or not that interest is positive or negative is inconclusive.

Secondly, my opponent didn't link us to his search, thus even less reason to accept his claim.

Then, my opponent goes on and states that Superman Returns shouldn't count simply because it was a crappy movie due to it being a corny chick flick. However, I'd advocate that super hero films being used as chick flicks can produce successful box office results. Don't believe me? Spiderman 2' main focus was on Peter Parker's relationship with the love of his life (and regrettably not the love of mine) Mary Jane Watson. It had little action and plenty of story concerning romance, yet still turned out to be a box office monster. In short, Superman Returns being a chick flick is by no means a reason to dismiss its sheer inferiority to the first Spiderman film (or the second for that matter). Also (audience), keep in mind that the resolution is "Superman is one of the greatest cartoon heroes OF ALL TIME." That means that he must

My opponent states that the "Death of Superman" was very successful. Before I can clarify on this matter, I would ask that my opponent present a link to the information he had used to conclude that this story has more sells than the Bible as well as how it broke the record for having the most sales for a straight to dvd movie. Due to time and cash restraints, I cannot go out and purchase the book, so it is my opponent's job to scan his copy and present an official source which states the same thing. I question both of these claims and expect to see evidence before I can actually clarify on it. I would also like to add that the Bible has been printed and sold since the year 1455 and is still being printed/sold at a high rate due to the large percentage of individuals who follow/scrutinize the Judeo-Christian faith. I submit that the death of Superman comic could not have outsold it merely within 15 years. I would also like the audience to observe the following essay:
http://www.milehighcomics.com... . In this credible essay, it is suggested that "The Death of Superman" comic was to blame for the large decrease in the comic book community during the 90s.

And with that said, I now await my opponent's final rebuttal.
Debate Round No. 2
olle15

Pro

olle15 forfeited this round.
Logical-Master

Con

NOTE: I ask that the audience vote on who provided the better arguments rather than what you personally believe.

Since my opponent has forfeited his round, I'd like to extend all of my arguments and clarify on a few.

First, when my opponent accepted my nine super-hero challenge, he only managed to present two actual super-heroes which were inspired by Superman in terms of their television series. The other 7 heroes don't apply as I've shown. Thus, my opponent's implication that many heroes ripped off Superman is hardly supported.

I would again like to remind the audience that my opponent's condition was "heroes" since his resolution states that Superman is one of the best heroes of all time. This is in response to his claim that my point concerning street heroes can be thrown out since he was talking about super heroes.

My opponent didn't provide any link to his google search concerning Superman, so you can dismiss his point. However, if you don't buy this, you can also read my reasons for why such a conclusion would be erroneous.

I realize that I had in incomplete sentence in my previous round. It was the one that said "That means he must . . ." I apologize for the mistake and will clarify on what I had meant to say. I meant to say that Superman's popularity must has to always been phenomenal in order for my opponent's popularity arguments to work. As suggested in my "mile high comics" citation, it was likely the "The Death of Superman" comic which comic book sells to plummet.

My opponent doesn't present his source for "The Death of Superman" comic book's success, thus you can dismiss his statements concerning the dvd, that it sold more copies than the Bible. Again, if you don't buy this, you can check out my counter argument which I had presented in the previous round.

On top of all that, my opponent did not respond within the allotted time. Since his arguments don't address my arguments in both round 2 or 3, his forfeit is essentially the equivalent to conceding to my case.

I maintain that Superman is not one of the best cartoon heroes of all time. As I've suggested earlier, Superman is character who has no flaws. The man of steel is a character who can never do wrong and who is practically invincible. In short, he is the equivalent to the character one might find in a bad fan fiction; he is essentially a mary-sue. As I've suggested previously, a character with flaws and weaknesses is far more likable. Not only can we (the audience) relate to this character(as which one of us doesn't have flaws and weaknesses?), but there's always a high level of suspense as we don't have to wait for a middle aged bald man to get his grubby hands on a green rock (to know that the protagonists is in trouble).

With that said, I thank my opponent for the two rounds he put into this debate and I thank the audience for reading.

Good night! :D

By the way, for those who don't know what a mary-sue is, you can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Gohan12345 3 years ago
Gohan12345
superman is crap spiderman is awesome so don't dis him
Posted by Kleptin 8 years ago
Kleptin
Kleptin- Voting as a Cleaner

Conduct:

There was no competition here. Logical Master addressed the audience formally and presented his case the same way, whereas Olle simply did not. His posts were far too casual, I noted quite a bit of slang, and found most of his arguments unprofessional.

Spelling and Grammar:

Olle had quite a few uncapitalized letters, but setting that aside, there were also a variety of grammatical errors and poor choices of sentence structure. Logical Master's arguments were presented far better.

Arguments:

Logical Master's arguments were detailed but also sharp to the point. His rebuttals were direct counters. Olle, when offering rebuttals, would not defend directly, but would slightly skew his response to circumvent the full force of the counterpoint. This approach is far too obvious to the eye not to be a negative mark. In addition, the arguments in and of themselves were poor on the part of Olle.

Sources:

Logical Master provided more sources than Olle, who provided none. More support would be needed for him to prove his case.

**Special note**

Olle forfeited his final round, earning him negative marks in all four categories. This seals the deal, even though he lost in each category already.
Posted by Yraelz 9 years ago
Yraelz
That was some amazing articulation on my part.....
Posted by Yraelz 9 years ago
Yraelz
I thought good debaters did a good job but olle obviously dropped logicals arguments so they extend as logical said. Thus I can only see how logical has won this debate. I'm actually kind of sad this is so close. Oh well...
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
So yeah, guys who voted to tip the favor in the pro's direction, some constructive criticism would be appreciated. :D
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
Firemonkey6775, a secret identity is an identity which is kept secret.

Frank Castle does not hide his face and has been photo'd many times. In the 20th episode of the animated Spider-Man series (1994), his name is stated on the news.

Optimus in the latest (in terms of time line) transformers series is certainly not in hiding. Also, the Autobots have successfully been accepted by human beings at that point. Their vehicles are merely used for heightened mobility.

Wonder Woman's real name is Diana, but (like the Punisher) in the Justice League series, this is merely a title.

The Hulk's identity used to be secret, but it is currently well known by all of the Marvel Universe.

The name Wolverine is noting more than a title. Besides, he supported the super hero registration act during the first half of the civil war arc, so he would have outted himself anyway.

Again, merely a title coined by Xavier. In the past (before Xavier's school for the gifted was exposed as the members of the X-men), it was secret.

As for the Ninja Turtles, hiding in the sewer is not the equivalent to having a secret identity as they have no identities which they use to regularly interact with the public as normal human beings.

As for the super hero bit, I covered that in my second rebuttal. Besides, the resolution uses the term hero rather than super hero. Anyway, I would ask that you save comments like these for after the debate concludes as it would be unfair for either of us to receive some form posted help from other users. Also, I would ask that you vote based on the argument rather than your opinion of the topic.
Posted by shlh1514 9 years ago
shlh1514
Come on so of these "heroes aren't popular or is failed or even unknown.
Posted by firemonkey6775 9 years ago
firemonkey6775
ok well superman is such an excellent hero because like captian america he has the best attitude another reason we all love him is hi is well impossible cool fly at the speed of light punch holes through space ships breath in space he can do anything a human would want to. He has also left the greatest legacy of any comic book hero.

some of these heros do have secret identities

-Punisher: frank castle
-Optimus Prime: giant semi
-Wonder Woman: diana
-The Hulk : Bruce banner
-Wolverine: logon
-Cyclops: scott summers
-Leonardo (TMNT)as pointed out not a super hero and they hid in the sewer for years call that not secret
-Michelangelo (TMNT)same
-Raphael (TMNT)same
-Donatello (TMNT)same
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
Argh! Just one hour off. Sorry, but I was given a tedious math assignment.
Posted by shlh1514 9 years ago
shlh1514
how much longer the suspense is killing me :p or :b
33 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by U.n 1 year ago
U.n
olle15Logical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: forfeiture
Vote Placed by Gohan12345 3 years ago
Gohan12345
olle15Logical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Umm superman can go suck and he is stupid with a stupid costume and he is too overpowered so he shall be banned
Vote Placed by Tatarize 7 years ago
Tatarize
olle15Logical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by JBlake 8 years ago
JBlake
olle15Logical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
olle15Logical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Robert_Santurri 8 years ago
Robert_Santurri
olle15Logical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Riddick 8 years ago
Riddick
olle15Logical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Kleptin 8 years ago
Kleptin
olle15Logical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
olle15Logical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Jamcke 9 years ago
Jamcke
olle15Logical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30