Superman would beat Batman in a fight to the death.
Although possible that Batman could defeat Superman in a face-off to the death, it is neither plausible or likely, given the qualities and traits of each hero. To put it very simply, Superman is very intelligent, super powered, and almost completely invulnerable with only one inherent weakness, which is Kryptonite. Batman, although possessing genius level intellect and peak human conditioning, as well as a vast amount of resources, is still a mere mortal, and has one method in which to kill Superman, while Superman has an arsenal of methods in which to kill Batman.
The only accepted evidence in this debate will be comic books, movies or t.v. shows and/or other works which are canonical to the comic books. Please refrain from using your own personal bias and stick to logic, that is, a comparative analysis of the stats, and powers/abilities of both heroes, should be used to determine who the victor would be.
My stance is based on the assumption that both heroes are forsaking their moral belief which prevents both of them from being cutthroat, ruthless, and taking life.
Kryptonite is both expected and allowed in this debate, as well as many other methods in which the two heroes can use to defeat one another. What is not allowed is outside help while the fight is in action, and spacious or sophistic reasoning or devices in preparation for the fight such as: Batman would acquire help from poison ivy, to hypnotize Superman before the fight begins, or Superman would destroy all of Batman's gadgets before hand.
A few core concepts I would like to have thouroghly established about who the Batman is in the comics that I think should be understood before proceeding.
1) Bruce Wayne/ Batman is always CRAZY PREPARED.
Did you know batman has trained himself to be immune to virtually all poisons that could ever be used against him and the few he has not been able to build up natural immunity to he has vials of antidote to stored away INSIDE A HIDDEN COMPARTMENT IN HIS ARMPIT as can be seen in a flashback in Batman RIP. He has a level of raw preparation always in place that zero other DC hero’s can match up against. And that’s just talking about his general preparation for the unexpected things that by all rights take him by surprise. Whatever comes his way he is prepared, wherein the bat-belt or not. In any form of literature or cartoon or live TV show batman’s become as synonymous with crazy prepared as perhaps MacGyver.
He also has set up preparations over time for specific problems. In numerous cannons weather by show or comic book it is discovered by the league that Batman has back-up plans for dealing with all the league members should they turn evil unexpectedly, and it always makes the rest of the league angry and nervous to know he has prepared such defenses and weapons specifically for them. Had Spoiler not jumped the gun trying to prove herself in ‘War Games’ we found out Bruce had a plan prepared to basically control all organized crime as ‘Matches Malone’
He also keeps TONS of stuff in the museum of his cave from all of his adventures, with varying degrees of how locked down it all is.
2) Bruce Wayne has an uncontainable incredible drive:
Perhaps the number one thing that makes us love batman as a hero is not his gadgets or resources or training but the drive that got his to acquire all those things after the death of his parents. His drive is so incredible that Darkside’s minions tried ‘bottling’ it into clone soldiers using a being called ‘Lump’ but Batman’s drive was just too much for them to handle.
With those 2 things established now, you can see how when my opponents says both Clark and Bruce are given the same amount of time to prepare, it really does not matter how much it is, any amount of time to prepair for this specific encounter is CRAZY enough time for batman to be more than just prepaired. He starts out rawly prepared for just exactly this scenario that has occurred in the past before, fighting superman, and he has whatever specific new preparation s he will make for this particular fight with superman, which when your batman could be him pulling off basically anything.
Method #1:I make the case that Batman after his trip to Planet X (Zur-en-arrh world) would have naturally thought to save just small vial of the Rodon soaked air from that planet, then locking it in his Black Vault for X-file type cases he has worked on. In prep for this battle it would take virtually no time for him to shove that in his armpit pocket or his bat belt or for him to just go ahead and inhale the stuff just giving himself supermans powers basically (but freeze vision instead of heat vision) and then batman is on even power field with superman. Except his drive is a billion times stronger than Supermans and thus batman would throw the or relentless punches, endure longer, also not to mention he is trained in every kind of combat.
Method #2: I make the case that batman would look for a magical means of beating superman as superman is vulnerable to magic. Of course obvious problem Batman is not a magical hero and Pro did say no calling for help from other hero’s was an option. But as I said he has contingencies for all heros including not just superman but the others like Green Lantern, the Flash, Hawkman, Zatanna, and most importantly……. Dr Fate. Batman being given time to prepare and always knowing where all heros are and accounted for he would use the JLA watch tower transporter to get the jump on Dr. Fate and ‘Borrow’ his helmet without permission for this battle. Same case for anyone with a Lantern ring of some kind (need not even be green). Knowing superman is week to magic too their be no denying with the Helmet of Dr. Fate anyone whereing it would kick Supermans but without breacking a sweat. and Batman with a Lantern ring is so overpowered (powered by will, imagination) for Batman its not even funny.
Method # 3: Lets go ahead and talk Kryptonite for a minute (the obvious solution to this debate) first read all the kinds of kryptonite here http://en.wikipedia.org... Batman being batman could easily get a hold of whatever amount of this stuff he could want. Not just talking plain old green kryptonite but gold (takes away Clarks powers forever) red (makes him apathetic) silver (makes him paranoid and scared) and much more. Black in this battles case sense both are cutthroats to start with superman would split in two a not cutthroat and the full cutthroat. The new good version of superman would of course fight the evil version of himself before fighting batman as he probable would not even realize batmans just as evil as his evil counterpart is in this battle until its to late. You think superman would be to fast to before getting hit by kryptonite? Magno Kryptonite would suck superman to that spot like a magnet pinning him long enough for batman to get him with gold Kryptonight then kill superman permanently.
Method # 4: Batman has a army of bat-robots at his command (part of batman inc.) this is not outside help as they are all bat gadgets. Being batman its reasonable to think they are easily made to modify quickly for whatever purpose there called for, like attaching gold, green, silver, red, and magno-kryptonight to various bots. Superman thinks he’s just punching through plain old drone bots getting to Bruce himself but actually he’s surprised when he drops from the sky after busting the one with gold kryptonite in it.
Method #5: Batman has a very tactful advantage to control the location of the battle knowing how to use the JLA teleporters and boom tubes in a very smart way. For example as superman invades the cave batmans already waiting in the caves boom tube, flashes away, superman follows, and WHAM, it’s the city of Kandor with a red sun superman loses his powers. Or heck lets say its MOGO the Living planet who is on guard duty to intercept superboy prime if he bust out of jail so he already has green kryptonite made ready on his surface everywhere. Also speaking of red sun radiation how hard do you think it is for Batman to duplicate that in a weapon. Its just radiation so and he access to JLA tech in a syfi world so….not very hard at all. The Cave itself is probably got artificial Red Sunlight ready to be turned on in the cave. Most the time its just used for a red alert signal imaginably.
Method #6: Superhearing. It’s a really awesome power, unless of course its making all the more able to hear the really high pitched loud noise on an even louder level. Black Cannary fights in Gothem for most of her crime fighting career, you can bet batman has a tape recorded of her screams. Nuff said their. In fact batmans known for using other loud sonic devices just to manipulate bats to scare people, but stuff like that would gives superman such a headache he cant focus.
If any of these Methods dont meet your rules for this battle (I think they all meet them though) just speak up, if I did breck from your intended rules in one or two of them there diverse enough methods there still bound to be several that will still hold, but I'm prepared to defend all of thes Methods are valid in this debate by your rules from how I read them.
I await my opponents response
I was unable to find anything about Batman being immune to most known toxins, and carrying antidotes on him at all times in his armpit compartment. I ask my opponent to provide proof.
2. This drive is known as Indomitable Will, and is in fact an ability that both he and Superman possess. Batman's drive is "a billion times stronger than Superman's" is speculation at best and probably false. Superman also has the ability known as "Torquasm Vo" which is an ancient Kryptonian mental discipline used to help fight adverse effects such as mental domination.
I feel the time allotted for preparation is very necessary, due to the fact that some of the methods you mentioned would require some time to coordinate.
As for the fights with Superman that Batman has had, allow me to shed some light on at least 2 that I know of. In Batman Vol 1 612 http://dc.wikia.com...
If you read it, Batman himself even admits that if Superman wanted to, he could use his super speed to squish him into the cement, but states he doesn't because he's a good person. In this comic it's even stated that "Although he (Superman) is under Poison Ivy's control, a part of his intellect keeps him from using his full strength. Batman won with the help of Catwoman, and Superman himself who had previously given Batman a Kryptonite ring. Superman was also holding back because he wanted to lose, and that is quite obvious.
As for the second fight, that can be found in "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns Vol 1 4 http://dc.wikia.com...
Superman saves the lives of many people in the western hemisphere by diverting a nuclear warhead to an uninhabited area. The Bomb exploded and threw a lot of dust in the air which blocked out the sunlight that gives him his powers. Superman is ordered by the government to take down Batman. If Green arrow would not have tipped off Batman, he would likely be dead, due to the fact that in a surprise attack it would be near impossible for Batman to defeat Superman in a random unplanned fight. The comic stated that Batman "prepares" for his ultimate clash; Batman is armed with Kryptonite (which he created), a powered exoskeleton and the Batmobile, the comic states that he only "manages" to defeat Superman who is severely weakened due to the lack of sunlight. All those nifty gadgets and preparation along with the help of the Green Arrow and a kryptonite tipped arrow, and he only MANAGED to defeat a WEAKENED Superman. If it was an easy or not so difficult battle for Batman, then the comic surely would not have used the word "manages". I believe my point here is clear.
Also it is stated that this series takes place in an alternate continuity that is separate from the mainstream DC universe.
Your link doesn't back up your claim, as it does not adequately explain what went on in that particular story line, so I researched. The basic story is that an alien known as Tlano teleports Batman to his planet Zur-En-Arrh, because he needs help in defeating his foes. Batman gains the ability to jump very high, and punch very hard, due to the very low gravity of the planet. I did not see any mention of other powers such caused by "Rodon soaked air". If this air exists on the planet and simply needs to be inhaled in order to develop super powers such as those of The Man of Steel himself, then Tlano, would have no use for his atomic powered Batmobile and Batplane that he built. So with just the two powers Batman is stated in the comic to have attained he would be nowhere near on an even power field with Superman.
Batman does not always know where all the heroes of the JLA are. Secondly, I would like to point out that Batman getting the jump on Dr. Fate would be a near impossible task. While equipped with the Helm of Nabu, Dr. Fate is almost the closest one can get to being omniscient without actually being omniscient. The helmet also has "Helm's Resistance, and can render the wearer insane. Likely, Batman would not be able to use it.
It should also be noted that Superman is not more susceptible to magic than all other people, but rather it is something he does not have an inherent immunity to. Zatanna has trained Superman to be able to counter almost every known spell.
As for the Lantern Ring, its power is not based on magic but energy, and thus is not a weakness of Superman.
The ring is weak to vibrational interference, which severely limits the ring's powers. Superman could create a device that mimics this.
If Batman were to steal a ring, The Lantern Corps would no doubt converge on him, and retrieve the ring.
Superman has survived a magical sword in the chest and a magical arrow in his back, during a fight that he won against four Elder Gods.
My opponent's Black Kryptonite plan is fallacious. Batman would have to be able get this Kryptonite near Superman, and succeeding would create more problems. Superman can fly at many times the speed of light, and kill Batman long range. Who's to say that the two Supermen would be able to kill each other? They would have to fight at full power, and this resulting clash would destroy everything in their surroundings and quite possibly the entire planet. If any of the 2 were to win, it would be the evil Superman, due to ruthlessness. Batman is now faced with an even greater problem. An evil Superman would have no problem pushing the entire planet into a star just for the sake of defeating Batman.
Black Kryptonite also has a chance of affecting humans in the same manner it affects Kryptonians, so I believe Batman would never take the risk of splitting himself into 2, so he wouldn't use Black Kryptonite.
Superman need only wear his lead suit. Superman could make a replica of his normal suit that would have lead infused into it (like Batman's mask). Superman could feign susceptibility to Kryptonite to trick Batman, and dispose of him while his guard is down. He could even wear this in addition to wearing his normal lead suit, for further deception.
There are various forms of Kryptonite that are lethal to humans such as Slow Kryptonite & Bizarro Red Kryptonite. Superman need only to have these on him.
He would be able to detect the presence of Kryptonite thanks to his super smell.
My previous defenses against Kryptonite are sufficient rebuttals.
Superman is not nearly stupid enough to burst into the Batcave. Batman would not be controlling the location of this battle, if anything, Superman would, him being able to punch Batman across the universe. Batman would need to know the location of said places to teleport there using the JLA watchtower.
If Batman could easily mimic red sun radiation, why wouldn't he use minimal effort for something that could give him bountiful reward? It has never been shown/implied/alluded to that Batman has created anything like this.
Loud noises would not work against Superman who can either shut off his super hearing, or just choose to focus on a different sound. http://dc.wikia.com...(Clark_Kent)
p.s. Please provide evidence for your claims.
here are some fine links at your request. The majority of my argument was in some way sorced from refrences to Grant Morrison & Tony Daniels work ‘Batman RIP’ and the the story arc ‘Last Rites.’ They can both be found in ‘the deluxe edition BATMAN R.I.P.’ book that you buy at any barns and noble. I have a copy here at my own house to refrence and if you need I can spell out what page you need to flip to. I’m going to make another refrence to a single panle in the ‘last rites’ story that is not mentioned in on the dc wiki but I feel is an important easter egg.
But before I do that I wish to speak first on the ‘fallibility’ of the comics even in this debate where we are doing our best to source our cases to them. The comics are full of contradictions. For example can you tell me how old is Tim Drake in the comics?
Inconsistencies are plagued throughout comics in more than just a sense of time but other things as well. For example there are only 2 things you could definitively say are in the ‘Bat museum’, the big penny and the t-rex. The rest of the stuff changes with whatever the artist drawing the comic feels like putting in there. In several flashbacks Gorden is portrayed with red hair when he was confirmed to have grey since before then. Also between flashbacks and nonflashbacks artist screw up putting batmans yellow emblem on his chest often, sometimes in flashbacks before he decided to start wherein it and sometimes they don’t put it on after he changed his costume without explanation.
Here’s another fun one to consider and it references an INCREDIBLY famous canical comic. When Jason Todd was murdered by the Joker, what country was it in, who was joker the ambassador of? Do you find the answer is ‘Iraq’ or ‘Quarak’?
How was damion wayne born? Even Grant Morrison goofed on that one and knew he did so wrote it off as something that changed when superboy prime beat on the walls of reality.
Those are simple comic trivia questions, how do you think this plays out when arguing about power comparisons with superman and batman? I’m a little shocked you didn’t try arguing my Zur-en-arrh references was no longer canical along with many other silver aged comics since ‘crisis on infinite earths’. But you see a ton of other ret-cons has happened even since then, like ‘Zero Hour’ and ‘Infinite Crisis’ ‘Final Crisis’ and most recently ‘Flashpoint’ which we comic fans are still reeling from hoping DC hasn’t screwed up the comic characters that matter to us too much this time. I’m still on edge to learn why is Barbra Gordon able to walk again? Is she still Oracle? Is spoiler still batgirl too? Has Superman ever dated lois in this new canon where there not married?
Fact is one of the only guides we have that drive a thread of consistency to define the comics is other media as well. So you cant talk about batman comics without blotting out movies and tv shows as well. Joker never had a former identity called ‘Jack’ until the tim burten film was out, then it started appearing in the comics. Viki Vale was a one-shot unimportant date for bruce then became retconed as a major love interest because of the movie.
Heres one thing I feel confident in saying whats canon though, supermans "Torquasm Vo" is bound to be retconed. What evidence is their for that? WONDERWOMAN KILLED MAX LORD. Why? Because he was mind controlling superman and it was the only way to free him. If superman could kick out the ‘Torquasm Vo’ surely it should have not come to that for her. This whole event was a very defining one that set off infinite crises. It’s a referenced occasion for future comics that cant be ignored or written off of ret-conned. So supermans ‘Torquasm Vo’ is an impossible skill to say he has in current cannon. http://comics.ign.com...
As for Batmans powers from planet X air? Do remember back in the day supermans powers only had him faster than a train and able to leap building in a single bound. Flight was not in his wheelhouse yet. Later his powers would be made out so great he could blow out the sun like a candle but they have stepped back from that since then as its impossibly hard to write for ‘Mary Sue’ characters that are just too powerful.
So knowing the gist behind that story was that Batmans powers mirrored supermans at the time, and also given we have in a modern portrayal of the comic in Batman Brave and the Bold, wich is where I got the name of the air from we can conclude it ended up a lot more like that. It the show he had freeze vision, super strength, flight, speed, bulletproof, the works.
You might go “Hey if your quoting from RIP as cannon then isn’t Zur-en-arrh batman retconed as a hallucination experienced while forming his backup personality in case of psychological attacks?’ It was, but it also wasn’t if you read on through the ‘Last Rites’ Story arc.
This panel isn’t referenced on the link but its an undeniable Easter egg Morrison dropped in there. Alfred and Batman are striating up in the cave talking about robins ‘laughing contest’ with the joker. And in Batman’s had is an unmistaken able Bat-radi! The keep sake that served no other purpose at the end of the planet X story than to remind Batman it actually wasn’t a dream! You find this in the same panel Alfred is holding a big oversized crown.
All that delt with M1 so I’ll start with the helmet next
M2: the helmet could not be surprised. Okay I will concead that, but it would let batman take it. It’s the logical coarse of action, its admitted that batman and superman have become evil, thus causing chaos. The Helmet of Fate would let Bruce take the Helmet and mix him into the battle to attempt to restore order to the most important advocates of good in the planet if not universe. Would this screw up Bruces mind after that battle? This is not relevant to this debates resolution, however I defend it would not. While supermans ‘mind karate’ is unarguably ret-conned Batmans is not as all the elements of the R.I.P. story are still present currently in spite of ‘Flashpoint’. Quoting directly out of flashpoint from Mokkari as he said in aw ‘what kind of a man can turn even his life memories into a wepon?’ The plot to ‘last rights’ was very similar to when goku fought the green monster that ate energy in the buu saga of dragon ball z. like Goku just fed so much energy into the monster it exploded batman fed so much drive and emotion into the Lump and the clones they tore each other apart and the Lump attacked the scientist in death. A man with a back-up personality and control over the situation even when the Lump is in his head is not going to go mad with the helmet of fate on his head. Bruce is probably the only human alive who theoretically could put it on without consequence.
Due to my argument taking more space than I realized first typing it on word I'm going to have to cut it shorter than I thought this round on the other methods. I felt it imporant I spent time on the continuity issue and my stretch of case that planet X is currently cannonized again the way its portrayed in Batman Brave and the bold cartoon.
but I will pick up the other methods next round and promise to spend no time revisting platet X or the Helmet of fate arguments until after next round.
the armpit thing can be found in the R.I.P. story arc too Batman Issue 681 specifically. he tricks a monk into drinking his own poison and pulls the antidote out his armpit to save him so he can give a message to his 'dark' master.
2. http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com.... arrh.html
Quoted from Con: "Do remember back in the day supermans powers only had him faster than a train and able to leap building in a single bound." "So knowing the gist behind that story was that Batmans powers mirrored supermans at the time." By Con's very own utterance, Batman only gained Superman's primitive weaker skills, further proving that he would not be on even playing field with Superman.
From the very start of this debate, I stated that the only evidence accepted, would be those that are canonical to the comics. The majority of your first few paragraphs were unneeded. What it all summed up to was you, trying to say that because some things in the D.C. comics are inconsistent, that we can't really trust a lot of other things, because it's not definitive, and different writers write different things. Regardless of the fact that different writers tend to change different things that are USUALY minute in importance, does not mean we can point an accusing finger towards everything in the comics and question their integrity. This is a faulty argument and does not help your claim of rodon being the cause of Batman's alleged powers of freeze breath, flight, and so on.
Coming to "The Brave and The Bold" episodes that you referenced; I will not acknowledge that as sufficient evidence. That series is not canon, just by watching the episode this can be seen. There are numerous inconsistencies in that episode, such as: in the comics Planet X Batman specifically brought Earth Batman to his planet to solicit his help, Batman did not arrive there by chance(#9,5,2). Another inconsistency, Batman's powers were the result of Gravity not rodon, like the actual comic states (#10, 2). Even if you were to somehow prove that the show is canon, the actual comic is far more solid evidence. Like the TV. series "Smallville", Batman Brave and The Bold has familiar traits that can be found in the comics, but as a whole is not congruent with the comics. The Wikipedia page even states that "The Brave and The Bold" is only "based in part" on the DC Comics series.
You also just so conveniently did not mention that the rodon affected, super powered Batman has a very crucial weakness that is tantamount to Kryptonite, which is quartz (#5). Quartz is stated to be the weakness of Batman in this TV. series; a VERY common element found on Earth that is much more attainable than Kryptonite. Superman could easily use this to counteract Batman's powers.
As for your rebuttal against "Torquasm Vo", this can easily be explained. This was simply a product of "Plot" which is many times highly inaccurate when determining things like skills and power levels among characters, why, because regardless of certain traits and skills, the storyline must prevail. I'm not trying to imply that storyline never accurately depicts anything as true, but I'm merely citing this as a very possible instance of the storyline being incongruent with other known facts about the characters in the story. For example, how did the JLA constantly lose or come very close to losing battles against the various villains and super-villains they have faced, when they have on their side Captain Atom, a man with the power to create entire universes with merely a thought (#8)? The answer to that question is plot construction. Torquasm Vo is still a very legit power of Superman that you cannot definitively prove has been ret-conned, especially when upon reading your cited article it is stated that Maxwell Lord, a villain with the power of EXTREME MIND CONTROL, knows the intimate details of DC's greatest heroes (#4). This means it is possible that Lord, knows how to bypass Superman's Torquasm Vo.
I also found it amusing that you cited a comic, in which SUPERMAN TOOK OUT THE ENTIRE JLA AND BROUGHT BATMAN TO THE BRINK OF DEATH (#1). Where were Batman's fail proof plans to defeat Superman then?
I never rebutted the validity of Batman actually having the Planet X experience. In my 2nd round rebuttal I did enough research to find out that the Bat-Radi remained in his possession, affirming the fact that his experience was in fact reality.
You saying that the Helmet of Nabu would allow itself to be taken by Batman is complete conjecture and not based on any solid evidence. Keep in mind that I never said that neither Superman nor Batman are evil in this fight, I simply said Superman is cutthroat. So If anything, the Helmet would see Superman as the greater asset to the Universe, because he is the Universe's greatest hero, and would either not allow itself to be taken, or would in fact sabotage Batman in order to allow Superman to win the fight. Also in the unlikely case that I am wrong, and the Helmet chooses to allow Batman to use it, remember what I said about Zattana (#7) (who has been noted as the most powerful in the JLA) specifically trained Superman to counter almost every known spell (#6). Also it stands to reason that in order for Batman to use the Helmet (especially to its full extent) he would need to have a working knowledge of the various spells, and entities in which the magic and the power of the Helm comes from in order to properly wield the power it holds. Also, keep in mind my 2nd round rebuttal in which I stated "Superman has survived a magical sword in the chest and a magical arrow in his back, during a fight that he won against four Elder Gods." He was even able to withstand a magical blast that rendered the entire JLA unconscious including Wonder Woman (a magical being) and Zauriel (Angel). Superman then went after the culprit, and stopped him (#6).
I can't verify your armpit statement, as I do not have the comic, and cannot find anything online about it. I will take your word for now, only because it does not really help your argument much. You also did not verify Batman's immunity to various toxins.
I completely understand your plight of not having enough characters to prevent your case, I sympathize with you. My original first rebuttal that I typed on word was 7 pages and over 3,330 words. I covered everything thoroughly, and much to my dismay, I had to cut it down severely to 4 pages.
Points my opponent failed to rebut/touch on:
1. My first paragraph about Batman always being prepared.
2. Batman's alleged immunity to toxins.
3. Batman's fight with a Superman controlled by Poison Ivy.
4. Batman's fight with Superman in "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns Vol 1 4".
5. Batman does not always know where all the heroes of the JLA are.
6. Batman would need to know the location of the two planets my opponent mentioned, in order to teleport there.
7. My Lantern ring rebuttal.
8. The rest of Method 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6.
As he stated he ran out of characters, and will pick these up in the next round. I look forward to his retorts.
Batman killed Darkside, an immortal. It’s a hard sell to try and underscore the level of preparedness that is the batman. Batman also defeates Ra’s Al Ghul all the time, another Immortal.
Anyway I said I would cover the other methods this round so pressing on….
M3: you start out with ‘superman can fly faster than the speed of light’. Even if that’s so that does not indicate he battles at the speed of light. Even assuming because he has dropped morals does not fix this as there are numerous battles with villains on power levels like his or above his (darkside for example) with no disclaimer of ‘this whole battle takes place too fast to see with the naked eye). Unless your like the flash who’s powers specialize in speed specifically in connection to the Speed Force, you have to slow down to think, aim, ect… for battle. Otherwise you would see superman fight that way more often.
But like I said superman can just run faster than a ‘locomotive’. That’s what the oldest comics say. Your just picking your favorite cannon to gauge his powers. If you wanted to you could say superman leaves earth forever, blows out sun and batman dies without ever coming face to face with superman who flew off to planet Oa or somewhere else like that. No writer would put supermans powers at that godlike level though these days.
It’s a great big deal about those inconsistencies as it shows whats ‘Canon’ in the comics is super subject to change and is not even in the fictional sense ‘logical’ all the time. With the very recent events of ‘Flashpoint’ where Zoom changes history and Flash fights to change it back, when its all fixed and done its not done without changes, like superman not being married anymore.
It means another retcon occurred. It means there is no ground for defending you know the degree of power Clark has if it’s as fast a train or a bullet or the speed of light or if clark could enter the speed force now all by himself.
Do note also Flash who is considered faster than superman in any canon was cut down by Slade Wilson in Brad Metzlers ‘Identidy Crisis’. Ollie said he ‘fought like Batman’ and was prepared for what flash would do before he did it, so it did not matter that he did it quickly.
You state that if 2 supermans fought the resulting clash would destroy the planet. That is retarded. When superman famously died like a MORTAL, it was from a pure beatdown by Doomsday, and his powers where not weakened at all for that fight. If his and Doomsday’s fight only manage to shatter widnows but not the planet, a superman on superman fight would not do more than that.
Also Good always triumphs over bad. Case in point, Ultraman Vs Superman is basically the very battle we are talking about. Superman has won in that instance before, it only makes sense he would win as good in this case too. So yes the Good superman would win. Prometheus and Deathstroke are ruthless versions of Batman and arguably have more power yet Batman has beaten them before in the past, heck Bruces sidekicks Tim and Dick have wiped the floor with them in the Teen Titan Comics.
You say black kryptonite could affect humans. Well then batman would just use it covertly in his batbots.
Fiegning would be Clarks biggest mistake. You cant fool batman. While Clark pretends to be dead batman finishes the job with armor piercing kryptonite batarangs.
Superman is not prepared enough to go find slow-kyptonite like batman is and would have to take a ton of time searching to find it. “but hes fast…” I know but that changes nothing. Every comic it takes superman time to just look for criminals on the planet, and now your asking him to run everywhere looking for an obscure rock. All this while trying to escape the pull of Magno-kryptonite that batman has placed in his bat bot.
Lead or no lead suit, his face is generally exposed and batman does not miss.
Also how does kryptonite smell different from any other rock? If you cant answer this you point about smell does not mean anything.
Method 4 really adds too any and all the methods not just kryptonight. Superman dosent want to come into the cave? He’s going to have to as that’s where the controller of the batbots attaking him outside the cave is.
Kill superman with a red sunlight radiation gun? Equip it to a bat bot
It puts the distance kill argument to a rest on supermans part.
Needs time to apply kryptonite, armor piercing bataranges. Bat bot distraction.
Generates Canary level noise generation could be equipped to these bots.
Fly in formation making an unexpected makeshift forced teleporter, taking Clark to Kandor or the batcave.
M5: You say superman would not come to the Cave. That’s were its going to have to happen if Batman tacticfully chooses to wait there, with Lois tied up no less, threatening to rape her. And then doing it...
You hinged your case also on ‘Batman would need to know where such places are…’ so it fails. Of course he knows where they are, He’s The Batman. You don’t think he has ever looked at maps of the cosmos, memorized important planets and wich have red suns? He’s studied up on everything.
You questioned if batman could make red sunlight generating tech, even you know this must be a weak case or you would not have started with ‘superman would not be dumb enough to enter the cave’ cause he would get killed there by your own admission. Its just a kind of radiation. And through the league there has been access to all sorts of futuristic otherworldly tech for Bruce.
To quote strait out of Brad Metzlers Identity Crisis when Green Arrow talks about the security JLA famly members have had sense Batgirls being crippled, he said it was made up of
“Thanagarian, Martian, Apokoliptian, and Kryptionian technology. Plus the Really Scary Crap Bruce Invented.”
The Apokoliptians have Motherbox technology and Green Arrow is more afraid of what Batman Invented. Says a lot.
You ask why has red sunlight tech not been mentioned in stories as something that batman can use on superman hypothetically? Because the Kryptonight ring is the special symbolic achilese heal of Clarks that he gave to Bruce to use on him if he’s mind controlled cause is Torquam Vo sucks. They don’t need to go into to detail about his exploiting the Red Sunlight Weakness as Kryptonight is enough hands down for writers to say Batman could beat him if he had too.
I concead M6
Immunity to toxins: your right you have little reason to doubt my word. the imunity is shown in the same scean as teh armpit pocket for antidote. Bruce tells the monk "I've Faced Experts, Lunatics, Artists whoxpress their fellings through deadly toxins. I carry antidotes fo all the poisons I'm not immune to. Ican usually improvise if I'm faced with something unfamiliar"
seriously though buy Grant Morrisons R.I.P. Its pretty much the greatest comic read ever.
'were were batmans fail proof plans then....'
i thought you would bring that up. like Time drakes age, they were ignored at the convience of the DC comic editors. pass it off as batman holding back and Clark not if you must. For purposes of this debate you stated its assumed they both had time to prepare of some kind, so no suprises for the bats this time and his ability to defeate the man of steel can be considered at a peak that was not present in that comic.
"you didnt touch on the fight with superman controled by ivy..."
Pass that off to Batman underscoring his talents. This is a good example of one of those inconsistancies in comics that just has to be ignored in light of everything else thats shown in the comics.
"that other fight I mentioned..."
superman lost in it, and batman had the prep time which you said he's alloted in this fight except cut loose without morals. if you think brute strenth cut loose is bad, consider how much scaryer master intelect that matches wits with genious villians on a daily basis cut loose would be like. I've listed plenty of ways that recreates the sunlight problem except in greater degrees.
For my opponent to cite the fact that Batman has defeated Darkseid and Ra's Al Ghul as a testament to his level of preparedness is very faulty. My opponent did not mention the conditions in which Batman defeated these two villains. His victory over them was clearly plot constructed. Darkseid, who is more intelligent, has better technology, can time travel, warp reality, go blow to blow with Superman, and is also a master tactician(1), should not have lost. Oh and let's not forget the Omega Effect. Take the two out of the realms of storyline and plot construction, and Darkseid would completely obliterate Batman with minimal effort. Sure Darkseid has a weakness to Radion but, Batman has a weakness to um�€� everything that can kill any other human, pretty much. Ra's Al Ghul is undoubtedly smarter than Batman, due to the fact that he has accumulated over 700 years of knowledge. He is also a better tactician than Batman. The very first time him and Batman met, he was able to figure out that Batman is Bruce Wayne, through sheer deduction. Ra's Al Ghul also has several lifetimes' worth of skills, wealth and contacts(2). It hardly makes any sense to say that Batman can actually defeat him. Batman's skills are hailed to highly; my opponent might as well say that Batman can defeat Superboy Prime. Again, Batman only won due to plot construction, especially DC's "good beats evil" complex. For those who watched the "Heroes" we know how annoying plot construction can be. Like seriously, all the chances to kill Sylar, and yet he remained till the very end.... -___-
Thank you for citing the Superman vs. Darkseid fight. If you will kindly read Darkseid's stats, you will see that he possesses superhuman speed and reaction, yet it is stated that he is still not able to move as fast as Superman. Superman and Darkseid were fighting at super speed(6). Superman can't move at the speed of light, but he can certainly move fast enough to react to whatever Batman has in store for him, such as a batarang. Superman could still fly out the way if he needed to(breaking the sound barrier).
I'm not going off of specific comics for my argument of Superman's powers; I am going off an almost all inclusive list on Dc.Wikia. It would be foolish for either of us to start picking certain comics that we want, because then there could be almost no resolution to this fight because we can't agree to the abilities of the two heroes. I could say if Batman is so smart and prepared, how is it that in the Knightfall Arc, that Bane devised a plan in which he weakened Batman, defeated him, and broke his back(4). Then you would just sight another instance in which Batman overcame someone of higher caliber than Bane, thus this debate would really never be conclusive. It makes much more sense to go off the list of our heroes' powers on dc. Wikia. If you were enter the two heroes' stats into a computer, much the same way it is done on a show known as Deadliest Warrior on Spike TV, and then run the simulations, we would see that Superman would win more times than not.
If two Supermans fought at full power, they would of course destroy the planet. The only reason this didn't occur in the comics with his other fights, is because it would make no sense for the writers to have planet Earth destroyed just for the sake of Superman, and Darkseid's fight. Every time Superman fought someone with similar power level as him, the resulting clash would destroy everything in the vicinity. Then they would have to write these planets back into existence, and make up more stories, while keep the stories congruent with everything else, this is far too tedious of an objective. Our debate is clearly contingent on the powers and abilities of our Superheroes taken out of DC plot construction.
You assumption that the good Superman would win, only makes any sense if this was in terms of DC plot rules, but again it is not. Also, even in DC comics, the good guys do not always win. They win the war but often lose battles. This fight between our two heroes is a battle.
I still doubt that Batman would resort to anything that would affect the people of planet Earth. Imagine that Superman doesn't punch the robots, but just blows them up from a distance, now we have bits and pieces of deadly kryptonite in the atmosphere that could harm people. Batman would not resort to this.
"Batman can't be fooled"; that is laughable at best. He is not omniscient,and has been fooled the comics. A recent example would be in Arkham City in which Joker feigns defeat, and Batman comes close enough for Joker to spring to life and inject him with his blood, that Batman almost dies from(5).
"Superman is not prepared enough to go find slow-kryptonite like batman is and would have to take a ton of time searching to find it." Superman who possesses genius level intellect and is about to fight Batman, and you mean to tell me he wouldn't think to exploit black kryptonite? My opponent is being biased and twisting facts to suit his tastes. Superman would not have to worry about evading Magno Kryptonite, because the fight has not started yet. Each hero has time to prepare and Superman would have obtained the rock far before the beginning of the fight. The fact that he's fast changes everything; I shouldn't have to explain why.
Batman does not miss? Batman misses many times throughout the comics, whether by fault of his own aim, or evasion by the target. Why would Superman be so foolish as to negate the purpose of wearing the suit in the first place, by exposing his face to an attack from Batman? I think we can all agree that Superman is not stupid.
"Also how does kryptonite smell different from any other rock? Being that Kryptonite isn't just any old rock, but a radioactive substance, and did not originate on planet Earth, it is very probable that it would smell different than "any other rock".
The Law of Thermodynamics states that everything decays over time, and this also applies to Kryptonite, which has been stated to eventually decay to iron. Kryptonite is a decaying substance, it stands to reason that it is most likely giving off some sort of odor, the decay is happening to slowly for human olfactory cells to pick up the odor. Superman with highly advance and fine-tuned senses should be able to detect the odor. Kryptonite is a heterogeneous compound made up of different elements. In "Superman III (1983) it is said that Kryptonite is a compound made up of 15.08% plutonium, 18.06% tantalum, 27.71% xenon, 24.02% promethium, 10.62% dialium, 3.94% mercury, and 0.57% of an unknown substance. A Post Crisis story in Action comics #591 (Aug 87) also made Kryptonite a compound."(3) Superman can pick up these various scents, and deduce that Kryptonite must be afoot.
Remainder of my argument(tried to embed the pics, but just in case that failed, I posted links to the pics):
Thanx to Con For an awesome debate :D
I thank my opponent for completing all the rounds to this debate and while this is a heated topic between comic fans I have enjoyed this debate very much.
Pro put the perhaps the majority of his arguments for the final round in not 1 but 3 pitchers. I would like the point out to the audience that This is basically akin to saying ‘the rest of my arguments are in the comment section…” and thus should lose him the conduct point. Even though he said I could do the same if I wanted I’m not getting a photobucket account just for a debate. I also intend to stick with the restrictions that are intended to go on these debates. 8,000 characters in 4 full rounds is plenty enough for these official debates. Its why I like these better than Forum debates sometimes wich just go on until we get tired of each other.
So only whats in this debate and not the photos should be considered when voting, although I will attempt to address those too if I have room. My method for this closing round seems to call for focusing on general concepts that affect all these specific ways for the Batman to beat Superman.
1) My opponent has danced around the preconditions of this debate.
At the start of this debate Pro said it was assumed morals were dropped and they had no problem killing each other. But when it suited him he changes that up “oh well batmans not evil, just superman” That’s an really rigged way to look at this match-up. If batman is still good then he would never kill Clark but persevere the battle until Clark is fixed. Then Clark could just keep fighting until batman dies.
You put superman in a position to not care if the panet is destroyed to kill batman for this battle but you say Batman cant because he does care. If batman is the same then so is superman. But for this fight there not. Its more like Owlman vs. Ultraman.
Batmans harem is pretty diverse as is, taking Lois when his morals drop is just the kind thing you would do when you’re the BATMAN. Especially when it can contribute to tactical advantages in this battle.
2) Evil beats Good outside the comics conituity
That’s the statement of someone who is not just cynical but ignorant. Last time I checked the world is relatively controlled by the civilized not the barbarian. If you were going to base any of your argument on this you should have brought this up round one as that would have been a very good additional concept to argue in relation to this debate.
The Truth is Good will always win over evil, and one day the ultimate good Christ will come and bring us Final Victory against evil forever.
In any case whether you believe that or not the fictional mechanics that gave Superman his powers and Batman his driveness and gadgets have to be the same mechanics that govern the battle.
This whole part of the debate begs us to ask the question “If David vs. Goliath was done on deadliest warriors would David win?” do we believe the smaller can rise to defeats to powerhouses through will, courage, faith, training, or preparation? If you vote for Con you show that you do believe men can take on the giants and win
3) Comic continuity/ plot construction
I have covered the point about ‘plot construction’ since before you brought it up yourself for your own convenience. You dismiss the basic canical elements that could be defined by Batman Brave and the Bold because it’s not in the comics then dismiss what’s in the comics basically cause ‘its in the comics’. You can’t have it both ways, especially when you have been insisting we source from comics from the beginning. If you really just wanted to pair up your very favorite overpowered, mary sue version of superman and the very worst watered down version of batman in a fight on deadliest warrior you should have said so. Then it really would have been the ‘could David beat Goliath” concept debate from the start.
Your arguments for ‘plot construction’ truly make you the only hypocrite who is cherry picking what examples from the comics define this battle not me. Batman defeating both Darkside and Ra’s al Ghul is a re-occuring event to define to limits of Bruce Wayne. A single battle with Superman for a specific plotline that can be chalked up ‘plot construction’ but you cant just throw out the running themes you don’t like altogether.
My arguments which you did not actually get to addressing where about how the shows and movies drive the definition of the comics. Vale was a one-shot girlfriend in the comics until the movies made her important. ‘Jack’ was not the jokers probable former name until the movie came out. The movie changed the comics. Brave and the Bold is definitely going to too. It’s a fun show, the nation is heading out of Iraq withdrawing form so many wars, people are happier and the media both comic and show will reflect it. Numerous things that were retconed out of existence in the past are being cannanized again with some flavor changes. Comic writer quality is at an all time high as they fight to keep the industry alive with there dropping sales in the techno era.
4) It would take to much preparation and work for Supermans weakness’s to be exploited
Not for Batman. That’s what makes him Batman. If he could not do so with a doable amount of effort for him we would not be talking about Batman. We would be talking about you or me. We might be talking about Wally West or Jason Todd. We could be talking about Oliver Queen or Arthur Curry. Mabye we would even be talking about Rorshak or Deadpool or Punisher. But we would not be talking about Batman. Its what makes him the Batman more than just any other hero.
Back to some specifics
A) I showed the basic elements of the planet X story are canical again thanks to Morrisons great writing with the easter egg he dropped. I gave a reasoned case that whenever a full fashback is given of the event the story will resemble the Brave and the Bold episode.
B) The ‘conjecture’ I base the helmet on is called ‘reasoning’. If you just want to call them cutthroats or evil it changes nothing order has been lost to the 2 greatest heroes in the universe, batman being number 1. Also the Zatanna argument is week considering were not talking about just any spell caster. We are talking about freaking Dr Fate. He is like the Batman of Magic. Like you said he is a near omniscient as anyone can get and the limits to his powers are quite out there. So superman has some basic defense from magic, big deal. Having basic self-defense lessons in martial arts does not make you able to defend yourself against Batman. This would not put Clark on grounds to win against Dr Fate.
C) It would be dumb to give superman’s so much strength that in full power fights with villains like Doomsday it cracks the planet with after shocks, you are right. That’s why comic writers do not give him that level of strength.
while niether the pitchers or the anything I put in the comment section should be considered by the voters, I put further cases there for those who are interested. also the videos are here for fun more than argument, I thought they ended the tone of this debate well espically the ones related to captin atom who is basically my opponent, and I am like aquaman in all those videos singing about how cool batman is. and you the voters can pitcher yourself like Martian manhunter, recolesing what it was like to be the soap bar Luther was using........Keep those mental images wont you.
I had great fun with this debate, thanks again for stating and finishing it with me. ;)
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