The Instigator
bsh1
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
gabep
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Team Debate: Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious

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after 1 vote the winner is...
bsh1
Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: Select Winner
Started: 8/3/2015 Category: Movies
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,981 times Debate No: 78346
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (81)
Votes (1)

 

bsh1

Pro

Preface

This is a team debate with myself and 1hardthanyouthink [http://www.debate.org...] pitting ourselves against whomever accepts. We are definitely looking forward to a very fun, very nerdy, force-tastic debate.

You must have 2,500 ELO to vote, and you must have completed 5 debates in order to accept. This 5 debate minimum applies to both members of the contending team.

Full Topic

Had Anakin not intervened, Mace Windu would likely have defeated Darth Sidious.

Terms

Intervened - for the purposes of this debate, "intervention" will constitute the moment Anakin entered the Chancellor's suite onward to Windu's death.

Team Dynamics

Whoever accepts must first have a teammate with at least 5 debates. They must declare their teammate in round one. Failure to declare an active, DDO teammate in round one gives me the right to have Max reset the debate. Teammates should both actively contribute to the debate; team members are free to coordinate for each round or to each take turns posting rounds. If a team member is genuinely inactive, the debate may be called off.

Rules

1. No forfeits
2. Any citations or foot/endnotes must be individually provided in the text of the debate
3. No new arguments in the final round
4. Maintain a civil and decorous atmosphere
5. No trolling
6. No "kritiks" of the topic
7. My opponent accepts all definitions and waives his/her right to add resolutional definitions
8. For all undefined terms, individuals should use commonplace understandings that fit within the logical context of the resolution and this debate
9. This is not a troll debate; judges so evaluate the round on the merit of the arguments and without introducing preexisting biases
10. The BOP is shared: Team Pro must argue for the resolution; Team Con must argue that, had Anakin not intervened, Windu would have lost to Sidious.
11. Wookieepedia [http://starwars.wikia.com...] and the movies will be considered valid sources. Only novels not about the movies will be used, since the novels and moves often conflict.
12. Violation of any of these rules or of any of the R1 set-up merits a loss

Structure

R1. Acceptance Only
R2. Pro's Case, Con's Case
R3. Pro rebuts Con's Case, Con rebuts Pro's Case
R4. Pro defends Pro's Case, Con defends Con's Case
R5. Pro rebuts Con's Case, Con rebuts Pro's Case, both Crystallize

Thanks...

...to whomever accepts; may the force be with us all!
gabep

Con

I accept this challenge with Rami as my teammate. Rami, go turn your messages on so we can set up a Google Doc.
Debate Round No. 1
bsh1

Pro

Thanks to the Con team (gabep and Rami) for agreeing to participate in this debate. We look forward to a fun and forceful (pun intended) debate. We will present evidence of Windu's abilities, then Sidious's abilities, and then we will analyze and compare their abilities to explain why Windu would win.

WINDU

A) Windu's Force Abilities

1. Force Leap - this ability is key for several reasons. Being able to leap from danger or to pursue a foe--in fact, mobility in general--is vital in a battle scenario. [1]
2. Force Wave - this allows an individual to send a pulse of force energy out radiating from them. It is capable of destroying hundreds of opponents at once depending on the scope of the energy invested. Clearly, this ability would be a useful weapon in any duel. [1, 2]
3. Force Grip - "The target could be seized with great strength, lifted off their feet and suspended in the air by a powerful Force user. If used to a high degree, it could crush an opponent's bones or organs." [1, 2]
4. Force Speed - enhanced agility. Windu was so proficient at this ability that he could land six blows to another force user before that person could blink. [1]
5. Telekinesis - Windu was highly adept at a variety of derivations of this ability. His skill with manipulating solid objects enabled him to shift things like an At-TE Walker with ease. [1]
6. Shatterpoint - This power "allowed a Jedi to shatter otherwise unbreakable objects by channeling the Force into the places of the object that bound it together." This ability could also be employed during battle, allowing the user to see the weak points in the other's moves and person. [1]

B) Windu's Lightsaber Skills

Windu is the only Jedi to have fully mastered Vaapad (a subset of Juyo), the most difficult and aggressive lightsaber form. [1, 3] Even Yoda has conceded that Windu was the only individual to have fully mastered Juyo--Windu is thus a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat. [3]

"Juyo users were proficient in a technique called 'Assured Strike,' wherein they traded sheer power for a near-certainty of landing a hit. Another technique they used was referred to as 'Vornskr's Ferocity,' which involved 'ferocious' attacking of an opponent...Those skilled in the Vaapad form were known for their use of the 'Swift Flank' technique, where they leaped or dashed around an opponent to make a quick strike. The speed of the maneuver was intended to catch opponents off guard." [3] Windu's incredible speed (for Swift Flank) as well as his shatterpoint ability (for Assured Strike) would compliment this style very well, enabling him to use it to maximum effect.

Vaapad also allows Windu to redirect energy back at an opponent. "Windu redirected the lightning back with his lightsaber, melting away the Chancellor's features in a display of the 'superconducting loop' of Vaapad." This is what deformed Sidious. [1, 4]

SIDIOUS

A) Sidious's Force Abilities

1. Force Lightning - "The technique involved a discharge of electricity from the practitioner's fingertips, resulting in electrocution and even disfigurement if the target was hit with it." [5]
2. Telekinesis - Sidious "levitated several Senate pods simultaneously, including the one he was standing on, with great dexterity and accuracy." [6]
3. Mind Tricks - "A mind trick was an ability of the Force that allowed the practitioner to influence the thoughts of the affected, generally to user's advantage...The mind trick was said to work only on the weak-minded." [7]

B) Sidious's Lightsaber Skills

"Sidious had an extremely aggressive dueling style and augmented his swordplay by using Force-enhanced speed...Although Sidious usually used only one lightsaber, he was also a master of Jar'Kai." [6] Jar'Kai is the use of two lightsabers at once. [8]

COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS

A) Comparison of Physical Abilities

At the time of their battle, Mace Windu was about 53 years old [1], and Darth Sidious was about 63 years old [6]. Windu stood at 1.88 meters (about 6 feet, two inches), and 84 kilograms (about 185 pounds). Darth Sidious stood at 1.73 meters (about 5 feet, 8 inches) and 75 kilograms (about 165 pounds).

Darth Sidious, being far out of his physical prime at that point, was substantially outmatched in his physical abilities. Windu was extremely physically fit, whereas Sidious had clearly not been as experienced in combat as Windu, having spent much of his life as a politician, trying to avoid having to engage in combat for the sake of keeping his public profile intact.

Mace Windu displayed many times his exceptional physical condition--notably in the Battle of Dantooine--where he fought B2 super battle droids with his bare hands when deprived of his lightsaber [9, 10].

In a prolonged instance of combat, Mace Windu would outlast Sidious with his superior stamina, would have an advantage due to his larger size - and therefore longer reach, and, due to the fact that he was far closer to his physical prime than Sidious - would be naturally physically stronger, and more agile.

B) Relation Between Vaapad and Sidious' Dark Side Energy

Vaapad required that its practitioner use the dark side energy inside of them, and if the person they were fighting made use of the dark side: the dark side energy of their opponent as well [6]. This gave Windu a major boost in strength: "For Windu, having given himself completely over to Vaapad, was able to draw on the torrents of dark side energy emanating from his furious opponent like a heat sink." [4] Vaapad also allowed Windu to redirect the force lightning of Darth Sidious back, rendering one of Sidious' greatest powers useless - and even counterproductive to victory: "In response, Sidious hurled a torrent of Force lightning at the Jedi Master. Calling once again on his Vaapad mastery, Windu just barely managed to catch the lightning on his lightsaber and began deflecting it back at Sidious. The redirected current flowed through Sidious, injuring him and deforming his face hideously..." [4]

Sidious would be an extraordinary source of power for Windu, as he was described as a "black hole of the dark side" by Count Dooku, and as the "Dark Side's most powerful expression" by Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. Being able to use Sidious' power as his own as an addition to his natural ability due to the full use of Vaapad, Mace Windu had a clear advantage.

C) Comparison of Force Abilities

Unlike Sidious, Windu has access to the "shatterpoint" ability. This ability will enable Windu to identify Sidious's weak points during battle. Windu can see exactly where to strike Sidious in order to have the greatest impact in the battle. Shatterpoints can be used on people to great effect. "Shatterpoints could also be discovered in the physiology of living beings. Cade Skywalker was able to perceive shatterpoints in Darth Talon and Nyna Calixte, whom he had previously healed from mortal injury. By focusing through the Force on where the healing had taken place, Skywalker was able to see where her old wounds were, and reopen them." [11]

Consider the strategic nature of Windu's assault on Sidious, in which Windu knew just how to disable Sidious: "Driving Sidious back with an offensive march, Windu steered the battle towards the office bay-window, which was promptly shattered by their whirling blades. By bringing the duel to the ledge of the window-sill above the sheer drop of the Coruscant cityscape, Windu prompted Sidious to channel more energy into a Force-powered grip on the ledge, and less into the Force powered speed that he was using against Windu. Sidious's slight drop in speed allowed Windu to defeat the Sith Lord with a well-placed kick to the face, which caused him to drop his saber into the streets below." [1]

Finally, Sidious's mindtrick ability clear won't work on Windu, who is obviously not feeble-minded. There other abilities are roughly comparable, though there is little evidence that Sidious has the same mobility (leaps, speed, etc.) as Windu.

Thus, we affirm the topic. Windu would likely have been victorious. Thanks again to the Con team and to the readers. Please Vote Pro!

SOURCES

1 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
2 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
3 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
4 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
5 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
6 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
7 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
8 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
9 - http://starwars.wikia.com...(Clone_Wars)
10 - See Video (2:25-4:00)
11 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
gabep

Con

INTRODUCTION:
We would like to return the thanks to bsh1 and 1harderthanyouthink. It is our belief that if it were not for Anakin’s intervention, Sidious would have defeated Windu. We wish the very best luck to the opposing team, and May the Force be with us all.

Force Abilities - Sidious:
In the Pro team’s opening argument, they omitted some very important details and powers from their description of Sidious. We will state and elaborate on two of the most important powers utilized by Sidious in his duel with Windu.

Force Lightning:
We would like to thank Pro for listing this as one of Sidious’ abilities and providing a definition. Unfortunately, Pro has not fully described the sheer intensity of Sidious’ Force lightning blasts. At this, we shall explain in further detail.
It should be noted that Sidious’ attacks were recorded as some of the strongest in the Galaxy’s history. Force lightning is no exception. His lightning blasts were powerful enough to instantly kill his target (1). He was also proficient in the use of several variants of Force lightning (2). We will discuss his use of Force lightning in the duel later.

Dun Möch:
While the Pro team did list mind tricks as one of Sidious’ abilities, he has mastered several other mind-control and manipulation tactics that humble the simple mind trick. Dun Möch was quite possibly the most potent of these powers.

“The Sith aimed to completely dominate an opponent's spirit through whatever means possible by employing their own lightsaber combat doctrine… Mental attacks would also be utilized during combat in order to strip one's concentration with the Force, making an opponent less precise and effective. Such a thing could be quite deadly, especially against Jedi, since concentration was of vital importance when using the Force.” (3).

Unlike mind tricks, Dun Möch was also effective against strong-willed beings, as shown when he used this technique to confuse and kill three Jedi Council members within a short period of time.

We will elaborate on the significance of these powers later.

Lightsaber Skills:
“Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."- Nick Gillard, Star Wars choreography.
Like Windu, Sidious was also proficient in all 7 forms of lightsaber combat (see quote). Impressively, he could ambidextrously utilize all 7 in a duel. As Pro stated, he was also a master of Jar’Kai, or dual wielding.

Comparison Between Dun Möch and Windu's Powers:
While reading this segment, keep in mind that Dun Möch is effective against even Jedi (3).
While the Pro team mentioned Windu’s skill with Shatterpoint, they neglected to mention that the technique required intense concentration (4). The purpose of Dun Möch, meanwhile, was to break the opponent’s concentration (3). Thus, we must conclude that Windu was not able to use Shatterpoint effectively, or at all, against Sidious.
Vaapad also required extreme concentration on the part of the user (5). With Dun Möch inhibiting Windu, it is unlikely that the use of Vaapad would have been successful.

Sidious' Use of Force Lightning and Analysis of the Scene:
With Windu’s two trump cards effectively negated, we shall now examine Sidious’ use of his most powerful attack. As we mentioned earlier, his Force lightning should have the power to instantly kill a being, and it had on multiple occasions. However, Sidious did not kill himself as his lightning was reflected back towards him. In addition, he made no effort to block the lightning, as Yoda did in Attack of the Clones, or to stop using his attack. We must conclude that Sidious was deliberately putting himself in a position of weakness for the purpose of turning Anakin Skywalker to the dark side, and we shall provide evidence from the circumstances preceding and during the duel (6).

Analysis:
Sidious had complete power over the Jedi at this time, but did not have enough power over Anakin to fully turn him to the dark side. He needed to find a way for Anakin to side with him morally. To achieve his goal, Sidious began the duel by quickly killing three Jedi Council members, but spared Windu, whom Anakin considered to be the strongest of the four masters. Just as Anakin arrived, Sidious put himself in a position of weakness and appealed to Anakin for assistance in the fight. In a manner that could be considered a usage of Dun Möch, he put Windu as the villain in Anakin’s eyes by putting Windu in a position of apparent power over Sidious’ life. As Windu was to deliver the killing blow, Anakin sided with Sidious and fell to the dark side. The duel was not a fair battle. In reality, it was merely a part Sidious’ grand scheme to turn Anakin to the dark side. This theory is proven to an extent in the Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader novel:

“As some Jedi had feared from the start, Anakin had been ripe for conversion when Qui-Gon Jinn had first brought him to the Temple, and for well over a decade all of Sidious's plans for the boy had unfolded without incident.”

This duel was an instrumental in Sidious’ plan to turn Anakin to the dark side. If Sidious was truly on the brink of defeat at the time of Anakin’s intervention, the duel would likely have been listed in the novel as an “incident”. Therefore, it can be assumed that Sidious had the upper hand over Windu throughout the duel but did not capitalize on it for his own reasons, not least of which to recruit Skywalker as his apprentice.

At this, we conclude that Sidious would defeat Windu without Anakin’s intervention. Once again, we return the thanks to the Pro team. May the Force be with us all, and vote Con.

(1)- http://starwars.wikia.com...
(2)- http://starwars.wikia.com...
(3)- http://starwars.wikia.com...
(4)- http://starwars.wikia.com...
(5)- http://starwars.wikia.com...
(6)- See video provided by the Pro team in R1.
Debate Round No. 2
bsh1

Pro

We would again like to thank the Con team for their arguments. At this time, we’ll rebut Con’s case.

FORCE ABILITIES

Force Lightning

Despite however intense the power of Darth Sidious’ lightning was, it could rather easily be rendered ineffective by Mace Windu, who was able to use his lightsaber to not only absorb lightning - but deflect it back at Sidious with Vaapad: “Calling once again on his Vaapad mastery, Windu just barely managed to catch the lightning on his lightsaber and began deflecting it back at Sidious.” [1]. This would make the force lighting not only useless, but something that could contribute to the defeat of Sidious, rather than victory: as his own lightning could be used as a tool against him.

Dun Möch

Dun Möch (abbreviated DM) “commonly involved spoken taunts, jeers, and jests that exposed the opponent's hidden, inner weaknesses and/or doubts, which had the end result of eroding the opponent's will.” [2] Based on an analysis of the article on DM [2], all DM techniques have some physical manifestation. For instance, “taunting Yoda verbally and displaying his mastery of telekinesis in an ‘unnecessary’ flashy fashion,” “Darth Maul also used this in his second duel against Obi-Wan Kenobi, by cruelly reminding the Jedi Master how Maul killed Qui-Gon Jinn in front of him,” and “Jacen Solo applied Dun Möch when he used the Force to hurl dislodged bricks at Mara Jade Skywalker during their brawl on Kavan.” In fact, every single example of DM listed in the “notable example” segment of that page involves taunting, jeering, or some physically provocative move designed to unbalance the opponent. Therefore, but “mental” attacks, it seems as if the article means using physical actions to surprise, unsettle, confuse, or enrage an adversary. It is clear that Sidious did not use verbal taunts while in combat with Windu; it also does not appear as if he did anything to deliberately unbalance Windu. [3] So, DM was not being used, which make it unlikely that it would’ve been a factor in the conflict.

Even if DM were being used, the fact that Windu was strong enough to fully master Juyo without falling to the dark side (which other accomplished Jedi like Sora Bulq and Depa Bilaba did [4]), it is clear that Windu had a mastery of himself and his emotions that few others truly had.

Also, Con says “Unlike mind tricks, Dun Möch was also effective against strong-willed beings, as shown when he used this technique to confuse and kill three Jedi Council members within a short period of time.” But the Con team has shown NO evidence that DM was being used against those 3 Jedi, and so this claim is wholly unwarranted.

Finally, DM has a key flaw: “If not carefully applied, Dun Möch could backfire upon the user, spurring the intended target to anger instead of overwhelming him/her with fear.” [2] Vaapad, Windu’s preferred fighting style, allowed him to utilize that anger more effectively in combat. By allowing DM to spark anger in him, Windu could thus make himself even stronger. “Vaapad was explained as being a state of mind rather than just a fighting style, allowing the wielder to channel his own inner darkness into the duel, and accept the fury of the opponent.” [4]

LIGHTSABER SKILLS

Con states that Sidious is a master of all seven forms and Jar’Kai. However, he does not make a case for why Sidious is greater in his performance of these forms. Windu also mastered all seven forms - including the Vaapad variant of the VII form, whereas Sidious is not a known practitioner of Vaapad [4]. Vaapad gave Windu an inherent advantage, as a master of it would be able to use the darkness of their opponent as an amplifier to their combative ability 4]. Windu was said to have used this ability of Vaapad in his battle with Sidious, where he “was able to draw on the torrents of dark side energy emanating from his opponent like a heat sink” [1].

Moreover, Windu's ability to strike with amazing alacrity would've allowed him to respond to multiple blades effectively. "Skywalker considered Windu's Vaapad bladework to be "an oblate sphere of purple fire" which contained dozens of blades attacking from every angle." [4]

Finally, Sidious's mastery of dual blade fighting is almost totally irrelevant, as it is evident that Sidious only had a single blade on him to wield at the time. [3]

COMPARISONS

DM vs. Windu

The article [5] specifically mentions that shatterpoint requires talent “or” concentration, not both. There is also an image in that article, the caption of which notes that shatterpoint can be used in lightsaber combat. Also, we have already proved that Vaapad was used by Windu to deform Sidious [1]. If Windu had the concentration to use Vaapad, which he clearly did, either Sidious was not using DM, or DM failed.

Lightning

Despite the sheer amounts of power in Sidious’ lightning, Vaapad allowed Windu to render it utterly useless, as Vaapad allows its user to use the dark energy from their opponent [4], and Windu was shown to be able to use the energy from Palpatine to deflect the lightning back, rather than simply absorbing it. Palpatine was indeed putting himself in a position of weakness - but that was only because Anakin intervened. Had he not, this point would be irrelevant. Simply because he most likely threw the fight does not point towards him being able to win it if he did not - especially since Windu was able to match Sidious’ ability, as well as using his energy against him [4]. The idea that Sidious put himself in a position of weakness is irrelevant, since this debate is about Windu and Sidious fighting without such intervention. Finally, there is no reason to believe that Sidious could both block and deploy lightning simultaneously.

ANALYSIS

The question of this debate is not whether the battle Windu fought with Sidious was fair or whether or not Sidious threw the fight. The question is whether, if it had been fair, Windu would’ve won. The answer to that is a resounding yes. Even if Sidious could have continued using the lightning, anytime he used it, Windu would’ve reflected it back. Furthermore, there is no evidence to suggest that Sidious specifically planned to turn Anakin in that particular way, but even if he had, just because Sidious planned to lose does not mean he would’ve won had he tried. When Windu’s force abilities are compared to Sidious’s abilities, Windu’s abilities are far superior, and directly counter those Sidious could deploy. Windu would have won. Thus, we affirm.

SOURCES

[1] http://starwars.wikia.com...
[2] http://starwars.wikia.com...
[3] See Video (all) http://www.youtube.com...
[4] http://starwars.wikia.com...
[5] http://starwars.wikia.com...

Thank you! Please Vote Pro! Chris and I now turn things over to Con...
gabep

Con

REBUTTAL: https://www.youtube.com...
Firstly, we would like to thank and commend the Pro team, who wrote a superb argument and rebuttal. Hopefully the Pro team has the same opinion of our writing. As good as that argument may be, however, there are some flaws and inconsistencies that we would like to address.

Mind Tricks and DM (a)

In Pro’s R2 and R3 arguments, they claimed that mind tricks and/or DM would not be effective against the Jedi. However, the video provided by Pro in R1 seems to state otherwise.

It is well known that Jedi had superhuman speed (1), reflexes, and could even see an opponent’s move before it was executed. This phenomenon was displayed in Pro’s R2 video. By examining the video provided in R1, however, one could see that the Jedi were reacting extremely slowly, for whatever reason. We will analyze and attempt find a cause for this discrepancy.

  1. When Sidious killed the first two Jedi, Windu was more or less standing still and did not react. Several blows could have been landed at the time, or to use Pro’s statistics, six blows before Sidious could blink. Why did Windu not step in?

  2. At the end of the duel, Windu took a very long time to finally deliver the “killing blow”. In addition, he was uncharacteristically slow and did not sense Anakin’s intervention.

  3. The duel went on slowly, and the number of strikes that were landed did not even get close to Pro’s figures for Windu.

Regardless of Windu’s abilities against a mind trick, he either succumbed to it or was slowed down by another factor, as presented above. The slow speed of the duel is also uncharacteristic of a duel involving Juyo/Vaapad practitioners. While this may not conclusively prove that the mind trick or DM worked, it does show that something was limiting Windu’s powers.

Lightsaber Skills and Physical Abilities (b)

Sidious is also capable of greater speeds (2), yet chose not to fight at that speed. This brings us back to our argument in R2 - that Sidious was deliberately limiting his own powers.

Pro stated that Windu had the clear advantage in his strength and stamina. While Sidious appeared to be a frail old man, he used his abilities with the Force to grant him astonishing speed and strength (1) (2) (3).

While it is true that Sidious did not see much combat during his time as a politician, he proved to be very skilled in combat during his duel with Maul and Savage Opress (2). In addition, he frequently had duels and training spars with Maul, who he defeated easily:

“Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul suddenly stood up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand.” (4).

This quote shows several of Sidious’s attributes. The fact that he could knock Maul’s lightsaber out of his hand is rather impressive, as Maul was one of the (physically) strongest beings alive at the time. The fact that Maul’s strength was “evaporating” could be a description of Force Drain (5), and given that Sidious’ training was centered on his abilities with the Force and combat (6), it is entirely possible that he had mastered this technique.

This brings us to our next point. Pro stated that Sidious would not be very skilled in combat. However, given Sidious’ training and his frequent duels with Maul, it would seem that he was very proficient in lightsaber duels and combative Force abilities.

Thus, we conclude that Windu’s powers were limited at the time (a) and that Sidious had complete control of the fight (b). Once again, we would like to thank Pro and encourage our readers to vote Con.

  1. - http://starwars.wikia.com...

  2. - See R3 video

  3. - http://starwars.wikia.com...

  4. - Star Wars - The Wrath of Darth Maul (2012)

  5. - http://starwars.wikia.com...

  6. - http://starwars.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 3
bsh1

Pro

Again, we’d like to thank the Con team for their arguments, and return their praise. We will now address their R3 comments.

FORCE ABILITIES

Con writes: “they claimed that mind tricks and/or DM would not be effective against the Jedi.” It is well known that mind tricks only work on the weak-minded; the video (canon material) confirm this fact. [1] As for DM, we never asserted that it could not work against Jedi, just that it was unlikely to work against Windu. Maul was a highly emotional individual with a clear connection to his brother, and who was given to being prideful: “Maul's hatred of the Jedi notwithstanding, his master cautioned him to guard against his pride.” [2] All Con’s video shows is that Sidious took advantage of Maul’s lack of emotional self-control, Maul’s burning desire for revenge [3], and Maul’s wounded pride to unsettle him. Windu, as noted earlier, had remarkable self-control, the kind of self-control Maul lacked. Maul was the kind of being vulnerable to DM, but Windu was the kind of being who was not at all susceptible to it. Again, as we wrote last round: “the fact that Windu was strong enough to fully master Juyo without falling to the dark side (which other accomplished Jedi like Sora Bulq and Depa Bilaba did), it is clear that Windu had a mastery of himself and his emotions that few others truly had.”

Con asks why it took Windu so long to respond to Sidious? There are several explanations, the first being that with four Jedi in a crowded entry way, it would be hard to have the room enough to strike without injuring a nearby ally. There was just no space for Windu to employ his force-enhanced abilities. The confined space of Sidious’s whole office may also be responsible for the lack of a “speedy” duel, since the space limitation would force both Windu and Sidious to focus more on bladework. Additionally, Con asks why it took Windu such a long time to apply the killing blow. The answer here is also simple: Windu did not intend to kill the Chancellor. He had hoped to place the Chancellor under arrest, and killing a disarmed opponent is not the way of the Jedi. [4] It was only after internal deliberation and Sidious’s use of force lightning that Windu came to the decision that, given Sidious’s power, there was no choice but to eliminate him. This was not a case of DM working, this was a case of Windu analyzing his own Jedi values.

NON-FORCE ABILITIES

Physical Abilities

Con claims that Sidious is capable of greater speeds than Windu, but the reason for Windu’s lack of speed has already been discussed. Sidious’s only really burst of speed during the entire fight was during that first strike, when he was farthest from the Jedi, and had the most room to capitalize on the use of force-enhanced speed.

And, sure, Sidious “used his abilities with the Force to grant him astonishing speed and strength.” But that doesn’t rebut the fact that Windu had greater stamina. Stamina is not the same as strength or speed, it’s the ability to maintain that strength and speed over time. Con’s points here are just non-responsive to ours. Just to remind readers, we wrote: “At the time of their battle, Mace Windu was about 53 years old, and Darth Sidious was about 63 years old...Darth Sidious, being far out of his physical prime at that point, was substantially outmatched in his physical abilities. Windu was extremely physically fit, whereas Sidious had clearly not been as experienced in combat as Windu, having spent much of his life as a politician, trying to avoid having to engage in combat for the sake of keeping his public profile intact. Mace Windu displayed many times his exceptional physical condition...In a prolonged instance of combat, Mace Windu would outlast Sidious with his superior stamina, would have an advantage due to his larger size - and therefore longer reach, and, due to the fact that he was far closer to his physical prime than Sidious - would be naturally physically stronger, and more agile.”

Lightsaber Skills

I cannot access Con’s source 4, so I cannot ascertain at what point in Maul’s training this incident occurred. But, judging from the fact that Maul was defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi, a Jedi less accomplished in combat than Windu, Sidious’s ability to defeat Maul is not impressive. Windu would’ve put forth a far more significant challenge. Moreover, Savage was not particularly strong in comparison with his other Sith; Maul easily dealt with him himself, as did Dooku. [5, 6] Sidious, as seen in Con’s video, was only really able to defeat the two combined because he was able to divide and conquer. Furthermore, Sidious’s duels with Maul would’ve ended after the Battle of Naboo (32 BBY), meaning that Sidious would’ve gone 13 years with little practice in swordsmanship (19 BBY). [7, 4] Thus, the points remain that Sidious was far less practiced than Windu in combat, and that Sidious, in Con’s example, effectively faced two opponents separately who were weaker than both him and Windu. There is no doubt Sidious was a formidable enemy, but it is unlikely that he was stronger than Windu.

The Conclusion that can be drawn from all this, and which we will distill more clearly in the final round, is that even if Sidious had been fighting at peak capacity, Windu would likely have won the match.

SOURCES

1 - See Video 1 (4:00-4:30)
2 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
3 - See Video 2 (1:00-1:25)
4 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
5 - See Video 3 (1:00-1:25)
6 - See Video 4 (0:20-1:10)
7 - http://starwars.wikia.com...

Thank once more! Please Vote Pro! Chris and I now turn things over to Con...
gabep

Con

Defence:
We thank Pro for doing an exceptional job in defending the case. We will now defend our case, specifically on the use of Dun Möch, which we had previously agreed to abbreviate as DM.

Mind Tricks and DM:
Team Pro claims that mind tricks work only on the weak-minded, and that Mace Windu was clearly was not. They also claim that DM would not have worked on Windu, or may not have been used at all. However, no matter how strong-minded Windu was. we cannot ignore the facts.

1. Pro claims that DM requires a verbal attack:
Sidious did use words to demoralize the Jedi prior to the duel (1). Specifically,
we are referring to two quotes which we shall elaborate on.
a. “I am the Senate” - This phrase was used by Sidious which may have caused the Jedi to believe that their actions were futile and that Sidious controlled the Senate. This attack ultimately failed, as Windu sees the lie.
b. “It’s treason, then” - This line had the potential effect of making the Jedi doubt their actions, breaking their concentration and allowing Sidious to strike.
These quotes show characteristics of DM (2), said characteristics being the use of verbal attacks and, as we stated in R2, possibly mental attacks, to throw the opponent(s) off guard. Also note that Sidious is listed on the wiki as a “notable practitioner” and is described as “the greatest practitioner of all time”. This leads us to believe that he would use DM in most, if not all, of his duels. This duel would be no exception.

2. DM’s effectiveness:
The fact that Windu had control over his emotions is irrelevant. DM was used to merely break an opponent’s will to fight and/or concentration and did not necessarily require strong emotions to work. For example, it could merely be a distraction or, as we stated in R2, a mental attack. DM can take several forms, and the creation of an emotional imbalance is just one of them.
a. Again, Sidious’ use of DM would break Windu’s concentration, negating the effects of Vaapad.
b. Windu’s use of the “superconducting loop” is very interesting. However, as the R2 quote from Dark Lord: Rise of Darth
Vader may prove, Sidious threw the fight to turn Anakin to the dark side (see claims made in R2). While Pro may have shown that Vaapad was used in that situation, it is possible that Sidious stopped using his mental attacks, allowing WIndu to use Vaapad, and instead focused on Skywalker. For example, Sidious said “Anakin! I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over!” (1). This quote has several effects and can be considered as a usage of DM:
1) By claiming that the Jedi were “taking over”, Sidious portrays the Jedi as the antagonists.
2) “I told you it would come to this” shows that the fight was planned by Sidious and he used his power of foresightto plan the duel (3).

Lightsaber Combat
The article on Sidious states that he was the equal of Windu in terms of lightsaber combat (3). Thus, even if Windu did use Vaapad, Sidious probably had a way to counter it, possibly in DM in conjunction with Force Rage (4), another of Sidious’ frequently used abilities. In any case, Windu did not have an advantage over Sidious.

Thus, we conclude that Sidious did use DM and countered WIndu’s use of Vaapad, only to throw the fight so Anakin would turn to the dark side. Thus, in a fair fight, Sidious would have been the victor. Thank you and please vote Con!

(1) - See R1 video
(2) - http://starwars.wikia.com...
(3) - http://starwars.wikia.com...
(4) - http://starwars.wikia.com...

Debate Round No. 4
bsh1

Pro

Thanks to gabep and Rami for a wonderful, informative, and nerdy debate! At this time, we’ll present our final rebuttals, review some other points raised in the round, and provide some concluding analysis.

DROPS

The below are arguments we raised that the Con team has failed to address or has dropped. Since this is the last round, any attempt by Con to rebut these points or to extend dropped arguments would count as a “new” argument. New arguments are prohibited by the rules, so I ask judges to disregard any attempts by Con to address these points.

1. Windu was physically stronger than Sidious and had more physical stamina.
2. As we wrote: “Finally, DM has a key flaw: ‘If not carefully applied, Dun Möch could backfire upon the user, spurring the intended target to anger instead of overwhelming him/her with fear.’ Vaapad, Windu’s preferred fighting style, allowed him to utilize that anger more effectively in combat. By allowing DM to spark anger in him, Windu could thus make himself even stronger. ‘Vaapad was explained as being a state of mind rather than just a fighting style, allowing the wielder to channel his own inner darkness into the duel, and accept the fury of the opponent.’” This turns Con’s DM arguments: DM would’ve strengthened Windu.
3. As we wrote, “Finally, Sidious's mastery of dual blade fighting is almost totally irrelevant, as it is evident that Sidious only had a single blade on him to wield at the time.”
4. As we wrote, “The article specifically mentions that shatterpoint requires talent ‘or’ concentration, not both. There is also an image in that article, the caption of which notes that shatterpoint can be used in lightsaber combat.” So, shatterpoint CAN be used by Windu in this situation and in the midst of combat.
5. As we wrote: “Sidious’s duels with Maul would’ve ended after the Battle of Naboo (32 BBY), meaning that Sidious would’ve gone 13 years with little practice in swordsmanship (19 BBY).”
6. The confined space of the Chancellor’s suite is a plausible alternative explanation for Windu’s lack of speed, just as Windu’s unwillingness to kill if he could arrest explains some of his slowness in making the killing strike.
7. Maul was vulnerable to DM given his emotional instability and prideful nature.
8. As we wrote: “however intense the power of Darth Sidious’ lightning was, it could rather easily be rendered ineffective by Mace Windu, who was able to use his lightsaber to not only absorb lightning - but deflect it back at Sidious with Vaapad: ‘Calling once again on his Vaapad mastery, Windu just barely managed to catch the lightning on his lightsaber and began deflecting it back at Sidious.’ This would make the force lighting not only useless, but something that could contribute to the defeat of Sidious.” Even if Sidious wasn’t trapped in the loop, one of his most powerful assets still could’ve been countered by Vaapad.


FORCE AND LIGHTSABER ABILITIES

As we said in earlier rounds, DM would be an ineffective tactic to use on Windu, due to his mastery over his emotions - as DM was purely an emotional attack. That said, there was no evidence that Sidious even attempted to use the tactic. There were no taunts directed at Windu in the battle, and Sidious didn’t do anything that would fall under provocative - such as using telekinesis to throw things at Windu in an attempt to throw him off. Con also put forth no evidence that DM was a tactic used by Sidious that made him able to kill the other three masters with Windu. One of his proposed DM taunts was said by him to have failed (“I am the Senate”) - which wasn’t really a taunt that was of a personal nature anyway. Therefore, it couldn’t even qualify as a DM taunt in the first place. Regardless, even if it could, Con says it failed. His other quote that he pushed as a mental attack - “It’s treason, then” - could not have affected Windu, as he was already convinced to be doing the correct thing, and therefore could not have been thrown off in this manner. It doesn’t quite qualify as a DM attack, as we have cited DM attacks to be “...spoken taunts, jeers, and jests that exposed the opponent's hidden, inner weaknesses and/or doubts, which had the end result of eroding the opponent's will.” Windu’s moral conviction in his actions were not internally doubted, as doubt was not a weakness Windu had.

Con writes: "The fact that Windu had control over his emotions is irrelevant. DM was used to merely break an opponent’s will to fight and/or concentration and did not necessarily require strong emotions to work. For example, it could merely be a distraction or, as we stated in R2, a mental attack. DM can take several forms, and the creation of an emotional imbalance is just one of them."

Firstly, Windu had an extreme amount of control and concentration for a Jedi. He was indisputably the master of his emotions. Plus his strategic thinking in driving Sidious to the window-ledge (see our R2) and his ability to use shatterpoint demonstrate that Windu was a highly focused fighter, and would not have be susceptible to DM in any form, including attempts to distract him.

Secondly, every example of successful DM that Con has cited (such as Maul) has been someone who was emotionally vulnerable to DM. So, Con's own examples seem to suggest that you must have some chinks in your emotional armor for the mental or verbal attacks of DM to really be effective. There is no evidence that Windu had such chinks, and there is a lot of reason to believe that he was too emotionally stable to succumb to DM.

Thirdly, Con says Sidious used DM (“The Jedi are taking over”) while Windu was using Vaapad to reflect lightning back at Sidious. This is further evidence that DM wouldn’t have broken Windu’s concentration or Vaapad ability.

Also, Con never ultimately rebutted the most recent argument put forth on the relation of shatterpoint to DM. We said: “The article...specifically mentions that shatterpoint requires talent “or” concentration, not both. There is also an image in that article, the caption of which notes that shatterpoint can be used in lightsaber combat.” We also noted that Windu was obviously able to continue using Vaapad - thus pointing to DM failing, if Sidious even attempted to use it (and we also have shown he did not attempt using it, regardless). So, it must be concluded that Windu had the full advantage of shatterpoint, as well as Vaapad - which allowed him to use Sidious’ rage against him - giving Windu a substantial addition in power, and thus an undeniable advantage.

NON-FORCE ABILITIES

Con does not properly address the point of stamina in our argument. Windu, being an entire decade younger, had much more capacity for long-lasting battle than Sidious did. The entirety of Con’s rebuttal to Windu being more physically fit was that Sidious could use the force to enhance his speed and strength to great levels. While strength was important in battle, Windu could still outmatch Sidious here due to his natural strength, as well as his ability to also use the force to enhance strength. Using the force would be irrelevant, too, due to the small space they were dueling in - which didn’t allow for a great amount of maneuvering. However, while Con put forth argument on speed and strength, Con did not rebut the stamina argument - of which force enhanced speed and strength is irrelevant to. Windu’s superior stamina would allow him to, in the long run, outlast Sidious and therefore gain an advantage in a duel with no intervention. The ability to continue fighting would have been important, and Sidious would not have been able to keep up with Windu.

Con also adds: “Thus, even if Windu did use Vaapad, Sidious probably had a way to counter it.” This is pure speculation on Con’s part, and no evidence Con offered suggests that Sidious had a way of defeating the superconducting loop of Vaapad (which rendered Sidious’s lightning useless, even if he could’ve broken off the loop) or of being able to overpower Windu with lightsaber technique.

CONCLUDING ANALYSIS

With these things considered, Windu had the clear advantage in this duel. Firstly, his Vaapad ability gave him the power to counter Sidious’s lightning and to even reflect it back at Sidious. Secondly, Windu’s shatterpoint gave him a combative advantage Sidious did not have--the capacity to see exactly how to defeat or weaken an adversary. Thirdly, Windu’s physical abilities would make him able to last longer in a duel, in comparison to Sidious. So, Windu himself would’ve been a formidable opponent.

It would also give him more physical power. In our rounds, we have shown that Sidious’ major force powers, as pushed by Con - DM and lightning - would be useless in battle against Windu. Vaapad would also make it so Windu could use Sidious’ lightning to his own advantage. Therefore, we have absolutely negated two major points in Con’s argument - and one was even dropped completely (lightning). DM, too, is a useless tactic against Windu, due to his mental guard and concentration, which was shown to be unaffected during the fight, as he was shown to have the concentration to use Vaapad. Also, if there even was a successful application of DM, it would have been to Sidious’ detriment, as DM exposes inner flaws - which is one of the things Vaapad exploits for a combative advantage. That is a dropped turn of Con’s main argument.

So, even had this been a fair fight, even had Sidious foughts his hardest, there is no reason to believe that he would’ve won. His two biggest strengths as outlined by Con were useless, and Windu had clear advantages over Sidious. Thus, we affirm that Windu would’ve been the likely winner had Anakin not intervened. Please, VOTE PRO! Thank you!
gabep

Con

FINAL ARGUMENT
Since the release of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, one important question has divided fans and has been the cause of much debate. Fans have wondered if Sidious’ survival was a consequence of Anakin’s actions, or if Sidious could have fought off Windu. Another question: Did Sidious allow Mace Windu to win, or could Windu win in a fair fight? We have taken the position that Sidious would have been the victor. Here is our final attempt to convince the readers. Please vote Con.

Pro made compelling arguments in the final round. However, one quote that we posted in R2, and Pro neglected, provides evidence supporting our claim:

“As some Jedi had feared from the start, Anakin had been ripe for conversion when Qui-Gon Jinn had first brought him to the Temple, and for well over a decade all of Sidious's plans for the boy had unfolded without incident.”

As we stated earlier, if Sidious was truly defeated, would the duel not be listed as an “incident”? As a major part of Sidious’ plan, the duel would not be forgotten in the future, and surely such an event would deserve a mention if Sidious’ plans were moments away from destruction. The duel earns no mention, showing that Sidious had planned every single step in his rise to power, including that duel, and his supposed defeat. Sidious was in complete control of the Jedi, and as powerful as Windu was, he was no different.

It is also worth noting that while Pro has described and elaborated the powers of both combatants to a great extent, the bigger picture and the scenario described in our main source must be seen. While the question still remains of who would win in a fair fight, keep in mind that the duel in the movie, which should be considered our main source, was set in a different scenario. It was not a fair fight. Sidious needed to turn Anakin to the dark side, and as we stated above, Sidious threw the fight. The fact that Windu cornered Sidious is irrelevant in the scenario in the duel. Sidious purposely “lost” the fight, as proven above, so any arguments regarding Windu’s performance, or powers used, during the duel may not be very relevant in the context of a fair fight, especially those that may specifically counter Sidious’ powers.

For the final time, we affirm that Sidious threw the fight, and in an ordinary situation, Sidious would have the advantage over Windu.

This was an enjoyable, nerdy, and interesting debate. May the Force be with us all, and please vote Con!
Debate Round No. 5
81 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by tejretics 1 year ago
tejretics
Sorry, but I don't have time to have a vote up, since I've got to study . . . really sorry
Posted by kasmic 1 year ago
kasmic
Finally got moderated haha.
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: kasmic// Mod action: Removed<

7 points to Pro. Reasons for voting decision: Fascinating read. Well done by both sides. Con's interpretation of the fight in question and the idea that Sidious threw the fight in a way to convert Anikan is fascinating. Unfortunately it is speculation and thus weighs little in my vote. It seems to me that much of pro's arguments are left untouched. In round 5 Pro points this out under "Dropped." It is on these dropped points that swing my vote in favor of pro.

[*Reason for removal*] The voter really hasn't done enough to examine the debate. He only points to one argument given by Con, affording the debate to Pro without ever examining a single argument given by them. Merely pointing out that much of Pro's argument is dropped is insufficient " the voter must examine which arguments play a role in his decision to vote for Pro, not just point out the lack of rebuttal. Similarly, the voter must do more than just analyze one argument given by Con so lightly. Merely pointing out that one of Pro's arguments is speculative ignores the support Con places behind that argument.
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Posted by bsh1 1 year ago
bsh1
Thanks for the vote, Whiteflame!
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
RFD:

While there were a lot of good arguments presented by both sides, it was Pro that managed to come through mostly unscathed with their arguments. Meanwhile, Con's arguments took a beating throughout the debate, mainly because there were only a few points that really got a lot of the focus. DM was effectively countered by Pro when they showed that Windu was far better fortified mentally than any opponent Con cites it working on, and that dominated much of Con's arguments, leaving Con with few avenues to victory.

What's left is two arguments. The first of these is the various skills and abilities that Sidious brings to the table, and while these present a formidable opponent, Pro does a very solid job of showing how Shatterpoint and Vaapad counter them. What's more, they show that Vaapad actually creates a large boost that is impossible for Sidious to effectively counter, thus skewing the fight in Windu's favor. He also has the stamina advantage, making long fights solely his domain.

The last argument is where Con doubles down in the end, and that's with regards to Sidious's motivations. The view is two-fold: that he was mainly focused on converting Anakin and needed to look weak for that purpose, and that the literature excludes this fight as important. The former, while not being completely speculative as it does have some support, still doesn't negate the resolution. Con had to show that these skill and power reserves of Sidious's were evident somewhere, and not just assert that they likely existed and were just being held back. Dropping the skills and abilities, and not providing enough support for this, doesn't help them. As for the latter, the literature is not enough to win this argument. Merely pointing to a single line and claiming that it automatically defeats Pro's entire argument is a little heavy, especially as there's no clear support for it. These points just aren't enough to sink Pro's arguments, and thus I vote Pro.
Posted by bsh1 1 year ago
bsh1
Cool. Thanks, Tej.
Posted by tejretics 1 year ago
tejretics
I've been asked to vote on this, so I shall, soon.
Posted by gabep 1 year ago
gabep
Come on, guys... someone vote!
Posted by gabep 1 year ago
gabep
You wouldn't be biased at all. Totally.
Posted by Rami 1 year ago
Rami
Waaaaait, it was never posted teammates can't vote. :). I won't though.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
bsh1gabep
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: Given in comments.