The Instigator
tjzimmer
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points
The Contender
Kasrahalteth
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points

Tell me your thoughts on Abortion.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Con Tied Pro
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/18/2007 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,005 times Debate No: 641
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (11)

 

tjzimmer

Con

I feel that abortion should be outlawed in all cases accept three. Those are the if the birth jeopardizes the life of the mother or child- final decision given to mother, victims of rape, and if the child is under 15 years of age and requests one.
Kasrahalteth

Pro

This ought to be interesting. For the most part, I agree with you. But hey, I can't turn down a challenge, so I'll give it a try.

First of all, if does this 15-year old have to get parental consent? Otherwise the abortion would be violating the parents' rights, which, of course, is illegal. Just something I wanted to get out of the way.

But anyhow.

Kids have the power to mess up anyone's life, regardless of age. And only allowing people 15 and under to have abortions is decidedly ageist. And how do you determine the age at which people are responsible for their actions? The reasoning center of the brain doesn't finish developing until 21 or 22. So why make 15 the cutoff for stupid decisions?

And for that matter, not all unintended pregnancies are the result of stupid decisions, anyway. Sometimes contraception just fails. And who are you to tell that kid in college on scholarship that she has to drop out to raise her kid?

And if people want abortions, they probably have good reason to. Forcing people to drop out of college or leave work is damaging to them, not to mention the fact that they're probably not emotionally ready for children and both the parent and child will suffer as a result. A single-parent home with an unintended child is going to be incredibly unstable, and while it probably wouldn't be as bad as a teen pregnancy would, it would still economically hurt the parent in a big way. And children raised in such unstable homes are probably going to be just as unbalanced themselves and will grow up to be angry and maladjusted people, and likely spend the rest of their lives occupying the nation's prisons.
Debate Round No. 1
tjzimmer

Con

I agree with the idea that much of this debate is based on things that we can assume will happen in the future of infants brought into poor families. For example, you talk about the fact that it is ageist to cut it off at 15. However, my argument is that many teens fully know the implications of having sex. Sure contraceptives fail but you and I both know that there is adequate knowledge out there that enables teens, though not fully developed mentally, to know what is right and what is wrong. I feel that when we talk about things like the child's upbringing into a bad home is a result from not having an abortion is ridiculous. I know in America we are very forgiving when it comes to bad decisions; we love to give second chances making people not learn from mistakes. Yet, making a baby and being responsible for ones actions is something that our society has overlooked because of things like abortion. We are quick to take the easy way out if we "make a mistake". That isn't right. A person needs to be accountable to his or her action. Sure it is a mistake, but it was ultimately YOUR decision to have sex. Sometimes the case is when a baby is made some young kids clean up their act and become adults. As we both know in places in the "ghetto" of America we have an enormous problem with just the opposite. However, some mistakes can make a person learn and have more character because of it. The Myans use to kill of their infants ultimately leading to the demise of their society. I know this is an extreme example, but as time has told history does have a way of repeating itself.
Kasrahalteth

Pro

Sorry I took so long to respond, by the way.

But first of all, you never answered my first question, about the 15 year-olds and getting parental consent.

Secondly, even though teens fully know the implications of having sex, they still make stupid decisions because they're not very good at reasoning and they're very impulsive. I mean, the ultimate in stupid decisions is killing someone, and we don't allow the death penalty for anyone under 18 because we know they can't reason well. If people under 18 have reasoning bad enough for us to have to add a law like that, then it warrants abortions. At the very least, you'd have to raise the age to at least 22, where the majority of people are capable of making a good decision.

And I don't think many people get an abortion twice. I mean, that's mistake enough for most people, and usually the guilt gets to people enough for them not to make a mistake like that again. Actually forcing them to raise the child as punishment, as you seem to imply, is a bit drastic, not to mention outright cruel to the child, who's only crime is existing in the first place.

And while some kids clean up their act and become adults, most don't. And you end up with self-perpetuating poverty where people who are just kids themselves have kids, drop out of school, and can't get a job. And of course, with such a horrible upbringing, the kid's going to do the same thing when (s)he's the same age

I'm sorry, but the character someone gets from raising a child isn't going to be enough for the time and education they lost. And those are just the handful of good stories you hear about on the morning news. Dropping out of a school and raising a kid is next to impossible. If you manage to do it, yeah, you'll have a lot of character afterward, but you must have been pretty strong beforehand. More often it just breaks people and they become addicted to alcohol and drugs and other such things, and go into a downward spiral for the rest of their lives.

I mean, most of your argument states that the person should have to raise the child as punishment, a consequence of their actions. But one of the very definitions of teens are that they are weak and prone to mistakes and often need to be protected from the consequences of their actions, at least until they can learn to make the right choices.

And again, using a child as punishment is just inhumane. There's no way the kid is going to have a good childhood. I mean, worst case, it may just be dumped somewhere after it's born.

No offense, but I have no clue what you're talking about with the ghetto... so I'm not really going to respond to that argument.

And I don't think we're exactly in danger of dying out because we killed off all our offspring. In fact, if you think of it a bit brutally, we'd be culling out the worst of them, because they're the ones most likely to end up as maladjusted and potentially dangerous adults. It's better for society, really.
Debate Round No. 2
tjzimmer

Con

I wasn't trying to say that the child should be a punishment to the parents/parent at all. The fact is that the moral responsibility for someones actions should be enforced. I strongly feel that our society is quick to give too many second chances. Young women have been raising children for centuries. When women would hit puberty back in history they were ready for child bearing. My point is here that maybe they are physically ready but not mentally as tough as you mentioned. However, I would be in favor to maybe having the cutoff at age 17 but no higher. Once again I have to go back to the fact that teens know what sex is and what the implications are. Use a contraceptive. Millions of kids drop out of school because of many other things than a child. You talk about how a person that drops out to raise a child is worse off. Of course that is true, but you know that it is their responsibly and worrying about their well being before their child's is selfish. If they cant take care of their child put it up for adoption. There a thousands of willing couples that will love and nurture a child. When I take a step back and look at the abortion issue it just seems so absurd. I mean we are actually killing our own young. We are preventing a natural cycle of life because of technological advances and "convenience" of the parent. The idea of making a baby is considered an accident in most occurrences nowadays. America has a ton of systems set up to provide welfare and aid to those who do have a child and are unable to take care of it. We give millions in hand outs to help young parents/parent out each year through our tax paying dollars. Did you know that the average mother gets 1300 a month per child through just the state welfare check? They get federal aid as well as the many food programs. So there is a ton of money that can aid these mothers. The problem is that these people keep making babies and don't feel the major affects of paying for a child because of the hand outs they can fully exploit. People aren't dumb and know that having a child is expensive but also gives a lot of handouts for a person living under the poverty level. You talked about parents using drugs and such well our system right now pays/contributes to these addictions. Other then the three exceptions I have given there is no reason for ever killing a baby. It doesn't matter if it is three weeks or nine weeks, once that embryo is created it should not be destroyed.
Kasrahalteth

Pro

Gaah. Looks like I'm going to have to give up on the parental consent question, won't I?

And back in history, women were essentially property. They didn't do anything for themselves. Now, women get educations and careers and the like and it's a lot harder to scrape out a living now than to pass from the ownership and care of one's father to being owned by someone else, so having kids younger wasn't a problem. Not to mention the fact that people didn't live nearly as long, and that at the time, it made more sense to have kids quickly, and to have a lot of them because of the chances of their being killed off by disease.

And being physically ready to have kids has little bearing on the argument.

And you suggested using a contraceptive. But as I stated, contraceptives sometimes fail. And where does that leave people? You can't encourage sex under certain circumstances and then strand people when something goes wrong.

"You talk about how a person that drops out to raise a child is worse off. Of course that is true, but you know that it is their responsibly and worrying about their well being before their child's is selfish."

That's just the point. If you have kids, you can't be selfish. Usually, the kid comes first. And of course, if you're putting someone else's needs before your own, it's a lot harder for you to have your needs met. If you're focused on taking care of the kid for the day, it's obviously going to be a lot harder to keep up with your coursework, and consequently you'll flunk out of school. And, again, in this day and age, it's near-impossible to get a job without an education and so you end up spending whatever money you had and then living in abject poverty.

And as for adoption. There are most certainly not thousands of families looking to adopt. Do you really want to create even more children that no one wants? I couldn't find a nationwide statistic, but in Iowa, for example, 3% of adoptable children are actually adopted. The rest rot in foster homes for their entire lives, and end up emotionally disturbed. People like to paint a rosy little picture about adoption, but you never hear about the kids that never found families.

And I know that statistic sounds like I pulled it out of thin air. I wish I did.
http://www.ipt-forensics.com...

"I mean we are actually killing our own young. We are preventing a natural cycle of life because of technological advances and "convenience" of the parent."

And preventing this ‘natural cycle' isn't necessarily a bad thing. You're making it sound like the way humans live is natural. You're typing this into your computer, probably from the basement of your house, in a nice little neighborhood with all sorts of trains and planes and paved roads. The way we live is not natural by any stretch of the imagination and neither is our reproduction because medicine is keeping our kids alive when they should have been culled out by disease or predators. And it's not like we're dying out. We've got plenty of families raising the next generation, and because the average family has more than two kids, the earth's population is going to get even bigger. And abortion is hardly a matter of convenience. In this day and age, again, if you're at a certain age and you're pregnant and you don't have an abortion, you're going to make it near-impossible to keep yourself somewhere in the middle class.

Our systems to provide welfare aren't nearly enough. The $1,300 a month you mentioned? That's $15,600 a year. Factor in $200 a month for food, $500 a month for rent and you're already down to $7,200 for living expenses, bills, gas, taxes, healthcare and the like. It's very little money, really.

And to make things even worse, now people are being ‘proactive' and forcing single mothers to take jobs in order to get that $1,300 a month. So you end up with people who have to take a bus out to the city to work 8 hour days for minimum wage in addition to being the only parent in the household. What kind of life is that for a kid?

And here's the most obvious argument. We donate these millions of dollars to the people that need them now. Can you imagine how many more people would need financial aid if we made abortions illegal? Either the money would be split more ways making everyone suffer, or taxes would go through the roof.

"The problem is that these people keep making babies and don't feel the major affects of paying for a child because of the hand outs they can fully exploit…You talked about parents using drugs and such well our system right now pays/contributes to these addictions. "

Well, this is the system that you want to use even more by forcing people to carry to term. If abortions are legal, you don't get nearly as many people exploiting the system and buying drugs. Better for everyone, right?

Besides, I think I already mentioned that these people certainly are feeling the effects of raising the kid. Again, the welfare isn't nearly enough.

I know I should sum up my argument neatly or whatever, but this is my second abortion debate in two days and in all honesty I'm getting rather sick of the subject so I'm not going to bother. Just pretend I said something witty.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Kasrahalteth 9 years ago
Kasrahalteth
Thanks. I try.

Yeah, now I have to add more characters to take up space. Darn comment editor.
Posted by tjzimmer 9 years ago
tjzimmer
your pretty damn intellectual for someone your age...very impressive
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Mharman 2 weeks ago
Mharman
tjzimmerKasrahaltethTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by indianajones644 8 years ago
indianajones644
tjzimmerKasrahaltethTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by adamh 9 years ago
adamh
tjzimmerKasrahaltethTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by griffinisright 9 years ago
griffinisright
tjzimmerKasrahaltethTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by zsavi524 9 years ago
zsavi524
tjzimmerKasrahaltethTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Mallory89 9 years ago
Mallory89
tjzimmerKasrahaltethTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by dirtycommiepig 9 years ago
dirtycommiepig
tjzimmerKasrahaltethTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Phil 9 years ago
Phil
tjzimmerKasrahaltethTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by tjzimmer 9 years ago
tjzimmer
tjzimmerKasrahaltethTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by kinley_cutie 9 years ago
kinley_cutie
tjzimmerKasrahaltethTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03