The Instigator
Loserboi
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points
The Contender
Baseballer2007
Con (against)
Winning
20 Points

Tests/projects should be the only decisive factors in determining a high school student's grade

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
Baseballer2007
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/24/2010 Category: Education
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,516 times Debate No: 11538
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (7)

 

Loserboi

Pro

Grades- are standardized measurements of varying levels of comprehension within a subject area. Grades can be assigned in letters (for example, A, B, C, D, or F), as a range (for example 4.0 - 1.0), as descriptors (excellent, great, satisfactory, needs improvement), in percentages, or, as is common in some post-secondary institutions in some countries, as a Grade Point Average (GPA)

Tests/Quiz- examine someone's knowledge of something

Pro side will be arguing that a teacher should only base a student's grade from their tests and individual projects only.

Homework, Attendance, Class Participation, Classwork, group work, etc should not have any percentile factor towards a student's grade. (if you find any other criteria in maybe your teacher's rubric you can use that to argue too)
Baseballer2007

Con

Hey Thanks for the debate. I will argue that all grades that my oppenent stated in his first speech ought to be used to evalute a students grade/performance.

First, a couple questions.
1. What age we talking about? K-12? 6-college? Pls specify
2. When will these "almighty tests" that determine someone grade and ultiminently future be administered? And how frequently?

Ok so I accept my oppenent definitions and will now state me case.

contention 1) Tests can be inaccurate and misleading. A whole Year of studying and working should not come down to 1 test. This can stress students and proves nothing. Life doesn't reflect this idea. Work involves daily work and constant participation. Schools should prepare kids for reallife so they have an obligation to do so.
contention 2) Teachers can be biased and subjective when grading projects. Also some students might not have the resources of others, this leads to discrimination.
A) teachers determine a kids future. Not their brains. If a teacher/student relationship were to be flawed a unethical choice of grading can occur. It is only in human nature to be
flawed.
B) some studets are poor, or not as well off as others. Therfore if out-of-school projects required them to
obtain resources the teacher provides can lead to more discrimnation and unfair judging among children.
Contention 3) if students knew that the only grade they would get in class would occur on one day, there would be no point of daily school, instead kids would only come to school the week before the test, hear the review, and somewhat attempt to pass the test. This is a practice common in college.
A) school attendance would plumment. This leads to drop-outs. If kids knew that once a year try HAD to go to school to obtain their grade, typically they will only go around the day of the test
b) if te grade only matters on the test it is highly likely kids will spend more time trying to find a way to cheat on the test than studying for it. This also kills education.
Contention 4) daily grades/class preticipation encourages kid to stay active and maintain interest in school. Kids dislike when teachers "teach to a test" or base their whole ciriculum on a test kills education because it doesn't apply real life instances and excludes communication activities.
A) class activities and daily grades are good and encourage educational integration every day. This will allow students to really learn, while having fun. More kids would rather come If they knew the work they were doing actually mattered
b) attendance and daily work are applicable in real life. Since school
is the gateway to this it should at least reflect this. Kids won't have to go to work once a yer and do a "job test" or "pick up an expensive client on a contract" but instead build up daily work while working with others.

I would refute my oppenent case but he hasn't(or has vaguely) stated his. I will answer his CX questions along with his case in the next speech. Goodluck
Debate Round No. 1
Loserboi

Pro

First, a couple questions.
1. What age we talking about? K-12? 6-college? Pls specify
2. When will these "almighty tests" that determine someone grade and ultiminently future be administered? And how frequently?

I did clearly state high school students and usually high school students are between 9th-12grade
These tests will be administered when a teacher chooses to pass them out.

Answers to contention 1
How are tests inaccurate? Tests are designed to sum up the lesson that a student has been taught and to evaluate how much the student has learned from the lesson. If a student goes to class participates, does classwork and then fails the test it just means that the student did not understand the material and means they should not pass. This does reflect real life ideas because it lets children know that they need to prove that they know what they are talking about and show they need to have an understanding of what they are doing. A test does that it evaluates and shows people just how much a student knows.

A student is supposed to show what is in their brains for a teacher to decide what their grade is. A teacher does decide the grade but he/she should only be deciding on how much he feels the students has learned from his lesson plan. A student teacher relationship should not reflect the grade given out to a student, a teacher and student can be best friends but if the student fails every single tests about geometry it is obvious he/she does not know geometry and should not pass the class.

Students are poor... well poor or rich if they go to school together they will have access to the same resources. The students who goes to the same school are given the same textbooks to study from just like the rest and a number of school resources to use like the library which is a quiet environment and usually have internet access for the students to use. A teacher will usually not require a student to buy expensive materials to do homework.

Contention 2
If teachers are biased then they should not be teachers. We are not talking about the ethics of teachers we are talking about how grades should be distributed. Again Projects usually require just research and all students have access to a school library to do research and a textbook that helps them.

Contention 3
I do not think class attendance would drop. I will go back to one of your points that school teaches about real life. Well it is up to the student to decide whether or not he/she wants to gain an education. Students who want to learn will most likely attend class to learn the material and try hard to pass the test. This puts more pressure on students to actually learn instead of relying on homework or classwork to fall back on to save their grade. Students who generally do not want to learn will not attend class and what is the point of forcing them to go? There are also those students who decide that they already know all the material so they do not go to class because it is a waste of time. If this particular kind of student can prove that they actually do know all of the material and pass the test then they shouldn't have to go to class to learn something they already know.

School attendance would only plummet for those students not wanting to learn or for those who feel they know enough of the material to pass the class. This is where personal responsibility comes in if a student really cared about their future they would go to class if they felt they were unsure about their knowledge of the material. There is no point of forcing children who generally do not want to go to school, to go to school when they will most likely not put any effort into learning in the first place.

Cheating on a test is not easy because they are usually monitored by the instructor unlike homework which is not and can be easily copied by other students. If cheating on a test was so easy then everyone would score really high on the SAT and ACT which they usually don't. Test are usually how teachers discover how much their students have learned and those who fail obviously do not know the material and should not move on to the higher level if they do not know the prerequisites. If a student failed every algebra test you cannot send him/her off to advance algebra and expect him/her to succeed if he/she dose not know algebra 1. This is the only effective way to determine if children are actually learning the material that the schools intended them to learn.

contention 4
School's main objective is to teach kids the material. Homework can easily be copied after leaving school. Classwork does not prove anything because the student can just be repeating what the teacher said 5min ago but not truly understand the material. Basing a grade off tests will force students to actually put an effort into learning the entire material and in doing that help them discover which subjects they truly enjoy reading about to determine what kind of future they want. Attendance to school and work are completely different you cannot compare the two. Going to class everyday is to benefit the student, going to work everyday is to benefit the productivity of the work force.

Summary
Tests evaluate how much a student has learned and if a student fails to show what they have learned then it is only obvious that the student has not understood the material and should not move on up to a higher level of a subject if they did not understand the lower level subject.

Class Attendance- I believe should be optional, those students determined to learn will show it by going to class to study for their tests that determines their grade. Student who do not want to learn will not want to learn even if you force them so they will only disrupt the learning environment. Students who thinks they are wasting their time learning the same material can just show their knowledge by taking the same test everyone else takes to determine if he/she really does know as much as the others. Students will work harder to learn if they realize they have to know the material to pass.

Homework, classwork, group work, class participation shows very little on how much a student actually knows and these activities should have no percentile factor in their grade. A student who does all the homework, classwork and group work is not showing they know the material these activities are very inaccurate. School is to educate the children and these factors were intended to help children better understand the material to prepare them for the upcoming tests.

You kept talking about real life situations. A system like this will teach students early on how to survive in college as most of their grades will be decided on their mid terms and finals not their homework or etc. With all this pressure to learn subjects early on it will really show which students are really capable of handling work on the college level. If grades in high school were really just based on tests alone, those who pass will be better off in college because they have proven they understood the material that their high school has tried to teach them.
Baseballer2007

Con

Ok lets start with an overview: First my oppenent still doesnt have a "case" or standpoint with points and/or arguements and has merely defended mine, i am not pro, and i am not here debating my resolution, he is. Therfore he must present a case or something for me to attack or there is nothing for me to go on besides one statement.....

Second: He never said highschool at all in his "case"

Third: "The tests will be administered when a teacher chooses to pass them out"... What if a teachers chooses midway thru the year, or when a student is unprepared or not ready. Since my oppenent hasnt offered framework to how these almight tests will be administered it is safe to say that they will not be done to perfect standards.

So on to my case.

Cont 1) First he doesnt understand the true warrent, by tests being "inaccurate" they simple show how 1 WHOLE year of school (180 days) is crammed into say 20 questions. They are inaccurate because they simply show a)who is the better test takers and b)who can remember more. Daily work allows teachers to see students progress and know WHO and WHAT needs to better taught. Like I've stated students will not be motivaterd to do class work that doesnt have any value and they will not try their hardest which means; that daily work will be inaccurate and teachers will not know any problems students or having if they do not understand a subject/objective. So my says "it shows how much a person knows" Well thats the point, kids wont be going to class/participating b/c it doesnt matter and then they wont be learning period, which kills debate itself, and instead leads to a lot of confused, undereducated children who walk into a test unprepared...which is once again why the tests are inaccurate. My claim still stands in this card as my warrent was misunderstood. Also this one contention outweighs my oppenents entire "case" already

Onto 2 a-b) First he says teachers are fair and grade how much they "feel" went into a project. Once again this is the point im making. If a student puts 10 hours into a project and believes it is perfect, and his teachers says "it;s not really neat/organized to me" and docks 20 points then the true effort and thought put into the project is destroyed because no matter how much a student may fathom a concept in school, if he/she isn;t neat and perfect then thier grade will suffer. Also with teacher/student relations; im not saying that they have true "relationships" which is affecting the grade but simply a flawed relationship which allows small points here and there to be deducted. He says "teachers who are biased shouldnt be teachers"..sorry but you arent the chairmen of every school district and they are out there. Even if there is one "unbiased "teacher then the small amounts of students they have would have their grades ruined by the aff plan of Tests only advocacy.

Next subpoint B) my oppenent sorta misread my coneption. Contention 2 is two arguements, a and b. so here is the response to his attack on "3" or B. He says 2 lines on the contention which say "all students have in school research that is the same" Once again not the point. If a teacher says, "Write a report and create a model of Saturn" and gives the students a textbook and a pack of supplies. Now the poor students will go and create a mediocre project that will get a passing grade, now the other students wil, go to the internet..use better materials..and go out and find better stuff and all around create a better project and getting a better grade simply b/c thiers is more flashy. So by saying saying "Its equal in school" its the out of school ones that are the problem.

Next real 3)
a)"Its up to the student to decide whether they want to go to school or not." - Ok that right there. No wants to go to school, so no one will go if we vote aff. then when the test runs around ( randomly cause its the teachers decision right?) they will unprepared, the tests would be flawed, and students will have their grades, which should be prefect relections of their work, destroyed. Onto the true warrent, if students, who are unmotivated enough, know that all days but one will matter for nothing, why go? who cares.....no reason to right? this will drop attendance, kills true education, and will lead to higher drop-outs.
b) Next on the cheating claim. He says " its not easy" ok thats true, but it happens. If there is a .0001% chance that someone can/chance to cheat then they will. 1 person can not watch 20 persons flawlessly and the one time it does occur, it becomes an inaccurate representation of the persons grade. Then he says, if you dont pass, you dont contiue. This is true and weither you go with the aff system or the con(orginal) system..seeing as how the us standard is test grades are (60-70%) then failing tests hurts. Also some kids are just bad at tests. Nervousness, the fact that all year matters on the next 10 questions, and just plain blankness means some kids who truelly understand the concept and have awesome daily grades and participate and totally get it...can fail. this not only dismotivates people but kill their grade once again...

lastly 4) He consedes 2 main points first is that. "school attendance is benefictial to the student" and then previously says it doesnt matter and its up to the student: so he says neg is correct and that only voting neg will lead to a stanle, if not incrasing attendance which will in turn lead to more educated workers and more workforce, this is another way neg outweighs pro. so by saying more attendance good and dropping that neg does that he consedes and important point in the debate.

now a) daily work and Homework can be copied. true. just as tests can. But still a student is looking at the material and remembering, i have math to study since i didnt do Homework. next he says daily work is just repeating what a teacher says, true. But nowadays school is based on repitition and listening and participating with the teacher to understand a concept. So even if it is repeating, it still hearing the objective, again.

b) cross apply what my overview of the 4th contention. he conseds this points and contradicts himself. Attendance is only affected by daily work, also cross-apply what i said in my case about "common college practices" as in going the week b4 the test cramming in the "ONLY" information needed to pass the test and then barely practicing it.

Umm his "summary/overview"

1. the summary is irrelevant is unorganized, no need to reattack his weak points.
2. he says attendance should be optional...he once again said in his rebuttal that incrase in it is good and important yet he doesnt care. Con solves this deliema with the original system.
3. he says daily work doesnt refect what a student knows, it is just the opposite. Tests are inaccurate and only relect 20 "questions or points" a teacher made the ENTIRE year. class work shows daily participation, stimulates students, and allows teachers to know what they need to teach better/to who.
4. Real life situations - once again like i said, you dont go to work once a year or take a "yearly job test" so why should school relfect what real life..isnt like. he compares it to college but this isnt college like he said in CX and that is the point.

In review i guess.

He has no case, nothing to vote on for pro except a definintion and a line of text.

His attacks were weak and didnt truelly attack the warrents in the claims, he twisted them to fit his small text and constanly repeats hisself and doesnt elaborate why.

Next if i win on any of my contentions(i am :D ) then my case outweighs his. Also only con solves harmful impacts such as the workforce, drop-outs, and unaccurate grades. His "case" causes them.

Vote Con
Debate Round No. 2
Loserboi

Pro

"High school Student" is clearly on the title of this entire debate.

The point of school is to educate and tests is the most effective way of determining how much a student has learned from a teacher are tests.

Nervousness
This is a ridiculous argument my opponent has stated time and time again about how school is to prepare students to be effective in real life. Well when will a student to get over there nerves? being nervous is just an excuse and real life situations will not accept excuses.
At the end of medical school you still take a test at the end to obtain a medical license, at the end of college a student must pass all their mid terms and finals before being able to get their degree because college professors only care about those tests, at the end of law school you have to take the bar exam to get a license to practice law, they need to pass a driving test to get a drivers license, you even need to pass a test to sell real estate. Life will have a test for everything fail any of these tests, a person cannot get a degree, be a doctor, lawyer, or even drive a car. Teaching a student that there are moments where they cannot fail is more of a wake up to reality than teaching them working hard everyday will get them what they want because it doesn't.

Daily work in class and classroom attendance
Okay lets say everyone does not go to class and just arrive to the times when there is going to be a test. Well Con let me ask you if kids do not go to school how will they know when the test is? If a teacher was a teacher who chose random times to distribute tests then the student would feel more pressure to go to class everyday on the fear that a test might come at any time. Daily work does not measure anything lets compare it to like P.E if a student dresses everyday but runs a 15minute mile time and cannot reach the minimum requirements to pass a physical exam, should they just pass because they try hard everyday? No, that would be ridiculous you cannot pass a student just because they show effort in everyday work they have to prove it by passing a test. Same for other subjects a child who do not pass algebra tests obviously does not know algebra.

Cheating on a test
You can cheat on a test okay that is a sure possibility. But at least a test is monitored by an instructor to at least make an attempt to stop you from cheating. Homework is take at home not monitored so the chances of cheating of that is really high. Classwork everyone communicates with each other so they will all just listen to the smartest student to get the answers they need. Classroom attendance and participation should not be a factor to a students grade because some students just do not like to answer questions and attendance is just showing up it does not prove anything about a student's knowledge. The chances of cheating on your daily work is a lot easier than cheating on a test because basically the teacher isn't monitoring it.

The point of school is to educate students and tests are universally agreed upon by colleges (since most college professors base their grade on tests) as a way to determine if a student has learned the material. Since high school should prepare students to move onto a higher level which is college they should teach students early on the college system and base their grades on tests.
Baseballer2007

Con

Ok, quick overview. My oppenent's last round left numerous arguements dropped, he instead took little one's out that werent the arguements i was making. So since he has essentially dropped half my case, that i organized, you should extend, and vote on it. Also extend again that he doesnt have a case. It was the pro's job to prove why daily/attendance/homework is bad, not that tests are good. Ive conseded that tests are good because i am for tests AND daily/hw/attend. My oppentent barely touched on why daily/hw are bad, just how tests are good.

I'll answer his 3 little arguements that are in a way irrelevant. Nervousness, cheating, and attendance are not what we are debating, he needed to prove why daily/hw were bad and misrepresent a students grade, his last rebuttal didnt touch on this.

1) Nervousness - this wasnt an arguement. This was one word used in a sentance to explain how sometimes kids do extremly well in class and understand a subject, but get nervous and do poorly on a test. He answer this one example but forgot about the other examples; like unpreparedness and bad studying because they dont go to class because the 179 days that aren't the test day dont matter. The whole point is that a year of studying and learning shouldnt come down to 10 questions that a student might forget. Next he uses a bunch of real life examples to show how end of year tests affect real-life, cool. Im totally for that. End of year tests are good but dont these people go to work/study/do daily stuff that builds up to that? doctors/lawyers/kid's all take courses to take these tests, and are evalutated daily on their work. Also by comparing life to "dont work until one day when it all matters" is a stupid, illogical comparisson to real life. Instead school should promote that every day matters and that everyday you should try your hardest becuase you are being watched. Extend that this wasn't an arguement or point, just example and that it shouldnt be thought of in voting decision.

2) Daily work/attendance - My oppenent says " If a teacher was a teacher who chose random times to distribute tests then the student would feel more pressure to go to class everyday on the fear that a test might come at any time" first this is unrealistic. Teachers must tell advance when a test should come, especially one that will be 100% of the grade, now when the kids know this date they will come in, review what it will be over and then come in and get mediocre grades weither they studied or not. Next he still hasn't proven that daily grades are bad, just that "they can be copied" but he has already said so can test. So even if ur copying your still repeating the material and making an effort, its better than skipping everyday b4 a test, that pro says in ok, they will just be in trouble when a tests come. This isn't how school goes. Kids can't and shouldnt do that. Everyday should be a challenging one that encourage a kid to particpate and engage in his/her own education to better themselves for the future. Only the con allows this situation to occur.

Cheating - Silly arguement, he says you can cheat in both systems so it doesnt matter. This arguement doesnt outwiegh anything and doesn't effect anything either, if your cheating on daily work at least ur attending class and making an effort to get a good grade, also for those who DONT cheat there is a huge benefit and allows teachers to know who/what to teach better (he drops that daily work stimulates education grows and allows teachers to see progress).

Finally he last statement is that, high school is to educate you so your ready for college...and sorta real life. True but college doesnt encourage students to never show up and dont do daily work. Also real life jobs require you to go to work EVERYDAY or your fired, no way around that. Sure there might be some days more important than others and you might take tests in jobs but i am totally for that. Pro needed to prove why daily+hw are bad and tests are good and con just need to say that tests are good, but so is the other stuff.

In conclusion

a) Oppenent doesnt have a case, no reason to vote
b) hasn't stated why daily is bad, just that it can be cheated...so can tests
c) dropped half my case so they outweigh
d) School needs to teach reallife situations, only con does that. refer to paragraph above for example.
e) his last rebuttal didnt make sense and took words outta context and hasnt attacked ANYTHING i was advocating in the last speech.
f) all his situations/examples are unrealistic, ie: teachers giving out random tests, "yearly job tests
Biggest voter: hasnt proven why daily is bad, just how tests are good. con advocates that test/daily is good.

Vote con, thxs for debate. goodjob!
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by JuanBueno 7 years ago
JuanBueno
That last comment wasnt me it was my friend, who won...
Posted by JuanBueno 7 years ago
JuanBueno
i like peto
Posted by Baseballer2007 7 years ago
Baseballer2007
ya i saw that after i posted my last arguement, haha
Posted by belle 7 years ago
belle
con: "high school" is right in the resolution...
Posted by JuanBueno 7 years ago
JuanBueno
Umm I'm going with Con for this one, the pro answers that hw can be copied...so can tests there is a high cheating rate in schools. And all of the Pros answers are saying that tests are a good way to measure the grade HE HAS NOT PROVIDED ANY REASON WHY DAILY GRADES ARE BAD except the cheating on hw which you can also on tests and the con lists multiple daily grades which the pro has not refuted, the Con defends only that tests shouldn't be the only thing evaluating the students grade, so the con defends daily work and tests should be added together. The Pro also concedes the test phobia argument which is also a great argument , which many students suffer from. The Con also is winning the fact that Daily grades are a good way to measure the effectiveness of the learning ability, along with the tests. So the Con is winning bc The Pro has not said why all daily grades are bad and just says tests are good when the con is saying it shouldn't be just tests. I believe the Pro is Mis-understanding His/Her own Debate.

Hopefully this was a sufficient comment.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
Edit: A new direct challenge.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
If I can take this and assert that projects should not be a factor in grades, then send me a direct challenge.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by JuanBueno 7 years ago
JuanBueno
LoserboiBaseballer2007Tied
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Vote Placed by belle 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by Baseballer2007 7 years ago
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