The Instigator
tvellalott
Pro (for)
Losing
17 Points
The Contender
FREEDO
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

That Batman is the Greatest HERO in all of Marvel & DC.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 8 votes the winner is...
FREEDO
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/7/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,214 times Debate No: 12227
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (8)

 

tvellalott

Pro

INTRODUCTION
Batman. The Dark Knight. The Caped Crusader. Bruce Wayne. (1)
I declare that Batman is the greatest hero in all of DC and Marvel.

Now let me get a few things about this debate before I begin my round one argument.
When I say HERO, I am including characters with super powers (superheroes), but to avoid any "Batman isn't a superhero" crap I am characterising him as a hero. Batman is a superhero.

No villains are to be included in this argument except as examples of a heroes prowess, however due to the dark nature of Batman's crime fighting style, neutral characters may be included.

My opponent should choose one hero and base their entire debate on that particular character.

Good luck.

ROUND ONE ARGUMENT - POWER & SKILLS:

In the real world, there are no superpowers, only maximised skills.
A expert illusionist may appear to be able to do magic.
A trained ninja warrior can disappear into and strike from the shadows.
An inventor will use mechanical devices and technology to make whatever area he focuses on easier.
A skilled athlete can push the human body to its absolute extremes.
A powerful martial artists can beat ten men.
A traceur or traceuse (2) can travel through a city without touching the ground.
A clever detective can solve crimes with the most basic of clues.
A brilliant tactician will plot out scenarios with all most supernatural accuracy with his foresight and attention to detail.

While Bruce Wayne is all of these, he also has the most important power that a normal man can have.
Money.
Money is power and Bruce Wayne is a multi-billionaire.

Dictionary.com defines SUPER as "of the highest degree, power, etc."
A combination of his massive amounts of money and maximised combat, acrobatic, detective and stealth skills make Batman SUPER.
I declare that Batman is the greatest hero because he easily stands equal among other superheroes, yet he has no special powers.

My round two argument will consist of my rebuttals to my opponents counter-arguments, my counter arguments to his opening arguments and examples of Batman being equal to super-powered heroes, despite a lack of any super-powers himself.

RESOURCES:
(1) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org...
FREEDO

Con

I see Pro has made himself quite a bit of leverage for this debate. He gets to decide what is hero, superhero, villain, etc and what it acceptable in this debate. I may indeed lose for this.

I submit to this; that it is by Pro's own discretion, as the former of this debate, by which the eligibility and level of which for any character is decided that are presented in this debate.

Why make this statement? Why even take the debate if I accept this?

I present my candidate for a greater hero than Batman from DC comics:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

He is Anarky.

And this is my case;
That what makes a hero is not his abilities. But for what intention he uses them.

I pick this character not only because he is an awesome character and that I find it funny that Anarky ends up fighting Batman, so this would be perfect, but also because the intentions which are so pivotal to making a hero are reflected in both me and my opponent by this character.
Both me and my opponent are Anarchists.

By both of our values, and by the standard that intention makes the hero, which is surely why villains are not included, Anarky is the greater hero here. Not Batman.
Debate Round No. 1
tvellalott

Pro

My opponents counter-argument is very clever and well-thought out.
I indeed relate to Anarchist characters. Another reason why I excluded non-Marvel/DC characters... I didn't want to debate against V for Vendetta, another of my favourites.
I didn't intend for my restrictions on the debate to prevent a broader discussion on Heroes, I simply wanted someone to purpose another Marvel or DC hero and tell me why he or she was better than Batman.

Regardless, my opponent has stated that it is the intention that makes the hero, which is why even I cannot refute Anarky's superiority to Batman.

Alas, I must disagree.
Batman's intention is to strike fear into the hearts of criminals. I can relate to that.

Batman is in essence a Vigilante who works outside of the laws of society.
He has one rule.
He doesn't kill anyone, even mass-murdering psychopaths.
While this logic is flawed...
-He will main and torture an individual for information.
-He will use brutal force to fight criminals, often crippling anyone who stands against him.
I believe a Batman-like individual would be perfect in my ideal Anarchist society.
-He doesn't do it for profit.
-He doesn't do it for social recognition.
-He clearly doesn't agree with how our bureaucrats go about their business.
-He does it because it has to be done. Criminals work outside the laws of society, so must he. A well used fight fire with fire attitude. He understands that society isn't perfect and uses the law when useful and ignores it when necessary.

Thus, I still declare that Batman is the greatest Hero in Marvel/DC.

I would like to thank my opponent for a challenging curve-ball and look forward to the next round.
FREEDO

Con

"Batman's intention is to strike fear into the hearts of criminals. I can relate to that."

I contend that Anarky does the same. But I ask you Pro, who, by your own standards, has a more clear perception of what a criminal is? A man who is actually apart of the corporate elite himself, or an Anarchist?

"Batman is in essence a Vigilante who works outside of the laws of society."

As is Anarky. Except that Anarky shares the values that both you and I hold. Whereas Batman does not.

You see, Anarky is a lot like a another Batman, just better. They are both gadgeteers with keen martial art abilities. Except Anarky also is described as having an extraordinary intelligence and fights for a more noble cause.

I do also contend that, though I have pointed out intention makes the hero, it is notable to state that Anarky is not only superior in principle but physically as well.

A quote from the link I provided regarding their face-off:
"he defeated Batman in combat by confusing the hero with holographic projections long enough to attack and subdue him."

Also, if I may say, I do smell in the air a bit of an unsettlement from my opponent. Is it perhaps that he finds himself in agreement that Anarky is truly better than Batman yet hopelessly tries to defend his original stance in-order to win the debate?

I reaffirm that the clear winner here is Anarky.
Debate Round No. 2
tvellalott

Pro

My final round argument will consist of rebuttals, several new arguments and my conclusion.

"...who, by your own standards, has a more clear perception of what a criminal is?..."
I believe Bruce Wayne, who saw his parents murdered as a child and lived in the criminal underworld for several years during his training would have a very clear perception of what a criminal is.

"...Anarky also is described as having an extraordinary intelligence..."
His intelligence is artificially enhanced, so he may be smarter than Batman but is also less realistic.

"...it is notable to state that Anarky is not only superior in principle but physically as well..."
I believe your paraphrasing here doesn't do Batman justice. In fact, I think this statement is completely inaccurate.
Yes, on one occasion Anarky bested Batman in combat, but through your own admission this is through trickery, rather than physical skill. On several other occasions, the link provided by you shows Anarky fleeing combat with Batman.

"...I do smell in the air a bit of an unsettlement from my opponent..."
I already admitted that this debate hasn't gone the way I had expected it to. I was thinking someone would brings up Spiderman or Ironman. Much like Anarkys only victory over Batman, I believe you are trying to beat my superior character with trickery.

Regardless of the fact that Anarkys ideology is indeed closer to mine than Batmans, Batman is still the superior character.

-Batman has the greatest arch-nemesis of any hero. The Joker. Their relationship is nothing short of epic.

-Gotham City's transition into film as depicted by Christopher Nolan and Christian Bale is nothing short of brilliant in my opinion. I have watched Batman Begins and the Dark Knight more times than any other movie.

-The 1989 depiction by Tim Burton and Michael Keaton was groundbreaking, setting the bar of quality for Superhero movies for decades.

-In terms of Global Appeal, Batman is infinitely superior to Anarky. Batman is a pop icon. Anarky is a nobody.

-Business Week of all magazines listed Batman as one of the ten most intelligent superheroes to ever appear in American comics.
Entertainment Weekly named Batman as one of The 20 All Time Coolest Heroes in Pop Culture.

-In terms of comic quality, Batman: Year One and The Dark Knight Returns are absolute classics. Anarky is again, a nobody.

-Superman, one of the most powerful superheroes in terms of super abilities, called Batman "the most dangerous man on Earth". Yet, in the Hush storyline we see that Superman has previously given Bruce Wayne a Kryponite ring, showing an amazing amount of trust towards someone he sees as the most dangerous man on Earth.

So in conclusion the fact that Batman is not an Anarchist and I am isn't really even relative.

Batman is most popular than ever, 71 years after his first appearance in Detective Comics. He is the character Stan Lee himself is quoted as saying "I wish I had thought of that". He is the perfect blend of Darkness and Heroic.

Batman is the GREATEST.
FREEDO

Con

"I believe Bruce Wayne, who saw his parents murdered as a child and lived in the criminal underworld for several years during his training would have a very clear perception of what a criminal is."

Or leave him a bit twisted and psychotic. The guy flies around in a bat suit. Sure, he stops the average street-thief and murderer. But what about the corporations? Who are no doubt accountable incomprehensibly more death and exploitation than any of those other guys, even including Batman's most prominent enemies.

"His intelligence is artificially enhanced, so he may be smarter than Batman but is also less realistic."

Doesn't change the fact that he could out-smart Batman any day.

"I believe your paraphrasing here doesn't do Batman justice. In fact, I think this statement is completely inaccurate.
Yes, on one occasion Anarky bested Batman in combat, but through your own admission this is through trickery, rather than physical skill. On several other occasions, the link provided by you shows Anarky fleeing combat with Batman."

I'm paraphrasing?! I described in entirety a single incident while you bring up this other incident without giving the full story. The full story is but another testament to his superior intelligence.
Anarky escaped from Batman(not because he needed to) by pitting two of his different enemies against each other, so they could beat each other up while he laughed to himself afar-off in safety.
Genius!

"I already admitted that this debate hasn't gone the way I had expected it to. I was thinking someone would brings up Spiderman or Ironman. Much like Anarkys only victory over Batman, I believe you are trying to beat my superior character with trickery."

No trickery on my part. The superiority of my arguments are clear. Incidentally though, my fair opponent, I am indeed in agreement with you upon the immense capabilities and intentions of the character which I have presented for trickery. It is an art which he has most auspiciously mastered.

"Regardless of the fact that Anarkys ideology is indeed closer to mine than Batmans, Batman is still the superior character."

All of Anarky's abilities are superior to Batman, as I have presented and you have failed to refute. So how can this be, I ask you--that you say Batman is better? Alas, it cannot.
Along side this you accept Anarky's dominance in principle of virtue. The choice is obvious.

"Batman has the greatest arch-nemesis of any hero. The Joker. Their relationship is nothing short of epic."

Too bad we're not debating which hero has the best arch-nemesis.

"-Gotham City's transition into film as depicted by Christopher Nolan and Christian Bale is nothing short of brilliant in my opinion. I have watched Batman Begins and the Dark Knight more times than any other movie.

-The 1989 depiction by Tim Burton and Michael Keaton was groundbreaking, setting the bar of quality for Superhero movies for decades.

-In terms of Global Appeal, Batman is infinitely superior to Anarky. Batman is a pop icon. Anarky is a nobody.

-Business Week of all magazines listed Batman as one of the ten most intelligent superheroes to ever appear in American comics.
Entertainment Weekly named Batman as one of The 20 All Time Coolest Heroes in Pop Culture.

-In terms of comic quality, Batman: Year One and The Dark Knight Returns are absolute classics. Anarky is again, a nobody."

The actual world of the comics and the movies has nothing to do with the debate. It says nothing about the stature of the characters within the story, as if they were real. The amount of comics sold and other such things do not make Batman any more efficient or well-principled of a crime-fighter.

Anarky TRUMPS Batman.
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by tvellalott 6 years ago
tvellalott
I've got like 5 debates going. I was thinking today I'd like to try this again with 9 more months of experience under my belt. I'll keep it in mind thanks Maikuru.
Posted by Maikuru 6 years ago
Maikuru
If you'd like a do-over, tvellalott, challenge me to this debate.
Posted by tvellalott 6 years ago
tvellalott
I'm still fvcking pissed about this.
Posted by tvellalott 6 years ago
tvellalott
Bah.
Posted by Puck 6 years ago
Puck
Spidey is probably the most iconic character Marvel has though not really a fan myself. Logical_Master used Batman as part of his Ultimate Team Battle debates, maybe check out some of those. :)
Posted by tvellalott 6 years ago
tvellalott
It wasn't what I was expecting out of this debate (something more like: Spida-man would ownz batMAN!!) so I had to change tactic..
I was honestly expecting someone to argue that Tony Stark was better than Batman. He has no powers AND he has a heart condition. ^_-

Agad.
Posted by Puck 6 years ago
Puck
Well this flopped. >.<
Posted by Reasoning 6 years ago
Reasoning
FREEDO is ballin.
Posted by Maikuru 6 years ago
Maikuru
So mad I missed this -_-"
Posted by tvellalott 6 years ago
tvellalott
You sneaky bastard Freedo!!!
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by studentathletechristian8 6 years ago
studentathletechristian8
tvellalottFREEDOTied
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MasklessJRAF
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Vote Placed by Shestakov 6 years ago
Shestakov
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Vote Placed by FREEDO 6 years ago
FREEDO
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