The Instigator
Akhenaten
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
grandma-complex
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

That germ theory is false

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/8/2017 Category: Science
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 944 times Debate No: 102494
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (19)
Votes (0)

 

Akhenaten

Pro

Looks like that Erold has done a bolter. Anybody what to take over?

1. Germ Theory has never been proven to be a valid theory. It was only accepted because it was a way of making money out of gullible people. Money talks, so it was accepted and a huge pharmaceutical industry has since flourished to cater for this pathetic theory.


2. Luis Pasteur was a fraud and a hustler who married the rector's daughter and became a famous scientist by stealing all the experiments of other scientists. Thus, he was similar to Einstien in that he was dull and stupid in science but was clever in decieving people. Thus, both Pasteur and Einstein were both thieving frauds who stole all their ideas from other people.

3. Antoine Bechamp was the real expert on Germ Theory. But his theory differed from Pasteur in that he stated that "germs are the result of a disease and are not the cause of it"

4. Prior to agriculture, there was no disease. Agricultural products are the cause of 98% of all diseases. These products include sugar, grain and dairy. The other 2% are caused by dangerous chemicals such as chlorine, bromine and flourine. These chemicals are known as halogens which cause a disruption of the human hormone system. The hormone system is an iodine based system which is vulneable to disruption by rogue halogens as listed above.

5. When Germ Theory was formulated nobody knew anything about hormones, gut bacteria and leaky gut syndrome. Thus, Germ Theory is a totally moronic theory which disregards all knowledge of how hormones work; how the gut leaks when agrivated by grain products and how bacteria enter the blood stream internally instead of externally. Thus, the internal leakage of bacteria is a more logical explanation of disease than the exterior invasion model of disease. Therefore, Germ Theory is false because it assumes that the germs come from exterior sources.

6. Germ Theory is illogical. How do germs know when to attack humans? Germs have no legs to attack with, no brains to think with, no eyes to see with. Thus, they are conpletely incapable of even finding anything to attack in the first place. Note - The word "attack" is used repeatedly by the medical fraterity, so don't try to deny that this word is ever used.
grandma-complex

Con

1- There is some debate over the definitions of scientific "theory" and "law." I address this for both the reader and my opponent, but to clarify, a "theory" is not a step below a "law." A theory does not graduate to a law; a theory explains facts. The "theory of evolution" doesn't dispute the fact that evolution exists, it explains evolution and how it exists. Similarly, the germ theory of disease acknowledges pathogens causes disease and explains why they do so.

My opponent states that "it was only accepted because it was a way of making money out of gullible people." I would like a source for that, but I would also like to point out that epidemiology and the germ theory go hand in hand. Epidemiologists suggested changes such implementing water treatments, reducing crowding in living spaces, and vaccines (all of which drastically reducing the possibility of transmission), so I believe that this is incorrect.

2- There are a few sources that back up what my opponent is saying. The allegation that Pasteur stole his experiments may or may not be true, however, it doesn't mean the science is not correct. Even if another scientist deserves credit for his experiments, as often happens within the scientific community, if you were to check the flasks he used for turbidity even now, you would not find any.

A clarification for the reader on Pasteur's experiment:

1- Pasteur prepared a nutrient broth and poured equal amounts in two long-necked flasks.
2- On one of the flasks, Pasteur bent the neck to make an s-like shape. Both broths were boiled to ensure sterility.
3- Both were left open to the air. After some weeks, Pasteur returned to observe the flasks
4- The flask whose neck was left alone contained broth that was contaminated. It was examined to be cloudy. The flask with the s-shaped neck remained clear, indicating its sterility.

The purpose of Pasteur's experiment was to disprove the theory of spontaneous generation (after some scientists insisted that spontaneous generation didn't work unless the food or drink was exposed to air). This relates back to a process called Pasteurization that has drastically reduced the incidence of food poisoning.

Between 1912 and 1937, 65,000 people died due to tuberculosis as a result of drinking contaminated raw milk. The CDC has reported that there is a 300% risk for hospitalization as a result of mishandled milk (as opposed to other foods)[1]. Milk is an excellent source of nutrients for both humans and bacteria, and the case for Pasteurization was finally made by a woman in Arizona named Jane Rider who formally published the link between infant mortality and raw milk [2].

Nowadays, Pasteurization is usually done by way of the HTST (high temperature, short time). Milk is heated in pipes at about 161 F for 15 seconds. Its efficacy is approximately 99.999%. according to the Journal of Food Protection [3].

4- I believe my opponent is referring to an article called "Agriculture: The Worst Mistake Humans Ever Made." While I can't detail the entire article, I can touch on a few points. Part of the article alleges that agriculture created the problem of overcrowding, and while we can both agree that basic epidemiology calls for reduced crowding, agriculture does not have the sustained effect of overcrowding as it was experienced back in Paleolithic times.

I cannot find either the 98% or 2% statistic, and I'd like to ask my opponent for a source on that as well.

I'd also like to point out that what my opponent is saying about the endocrine, or hormone system, is false. In fact, one of the mentioned halogens, chlorine is a minor element. It is essential to the acid-base balance in the body and helps balance the charge of blood cells.

Also, the allegation that the endocrine system is based on iodine is also false. My opponent might be referring to the thyroid hormone feedback loop that produces thyroxine, in which iodine is needed to bind it. A deficiency of iodine can cause hypothyroidism, a condition in which not enough thyroid hormone is produced.

There are other feedback loops such as the RAAS (renin-angiotensin-aldosterone) system. This system is based upon blood pressure and dissolved solutes, not iodine, and there are many others.

5- The term "leaky gut" refers to a diagnosis that has yet to be made [4]. General symptoms such as bloating, gas, stomach cramps, and food sensitivity are all incredibly vague and could point anywhere. I will admit that some people have sensitivities to carbs, as I myself am one of them. However like allergies, it is not an all-encompassing thing.

Additionally, the germ theory coincides with hormones pretty well. Cortisol, or the "stress hormone," actually reduces the effectiveness of the immune system. When a person experiences high levels of stress, they become sick more easily because the reduction of the effectiveness of the immune system,

6- Bacteria, viruses, prions, fungi, protozoa - they have the same directive that humans do. Survive Survive and reproduce. They have no malicious intent; they merely have found a place in which nutrients are abundant. A good parasite can find equilibrium with its host, however, most parasites aren"t "good." This is why most infections are intense and acute, because the body can figure out something is abundantly wrong as the pathogen immediately starts replicating and taking nutrients.

My opponent also neglects the modes of transmission. Touching your eyes, nose, and mouth easily transmits pathogens - you"re physically putting them inside you. Being in a place in which someone has coughed or sneezed, breathing their air puts the pathogens inside you.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] https://www.azwhf.org...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[4]http://www.webmd.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Akhenaten

Pro

1. All we need to know is that people who deceive others are breaking the law. Thus, 98% of all medical procedures could be said to be "illegal." Although, it is very unlikely that any judge would convict a doctor over a medical issue. This is because the law system is designed to favour medical professionals. Also, the long history of acceptance of germ theory keeps it safe from litigation and a thick wall of precedence and corruption creates an impenitratable barrier for doctors to operate in.


My opponent states that "it was only accepted because it was a way of making money out of gullible people." I would like a source for that, but I would also like to point out that epidemiology and the germ theory go hand in hand. Epidemiologists suggested changes such implementing water treatments, reducing crowding in living spaces, and vaccines (all of which drastically reducing the possibility of transmission), so I believe that this is incorrect.

http://www.vaclib.org...

Its not crowding that causes disease. Its the lack of sanitation and eating stored foods such as grain, dairy and sugar that causes disease. Vaccines don't work and are based on primitive animal/human blood mixing myths from the distant past.


Between 1912 and 1937, 65,000 people died due to tuberculosis as a result of drinking contaminated raw milk. The CDC has reported that there is a 300% risk for hospitalization as a result of mishandled milk (as opposed to other foods)[1]. Milk is an excellent source of nutrients for both humans and bacteria, and the case for Pasteurization was finally made by a woman in Arizona named Jane Rider who formally published the link between infant mortality and raw milk [2].

Drinking any milk will cause disease. This is because milk is a baby cow food and is not suitable for humans. The mass production of milk without any refrigeration (1912-1937) will lead to massive deaths due to contamination and unsantitary cleaning practices.

I cannot find either the 98% or 2% statistic, and I'd like to ask my opponent for a source on that as well.

This is just a guesstament figure based on logic. If germs don't cause disease, then, that only leaves grain, sugar and dairy as being the cause of 98% of all disease. Don't be alarmed that I am guessing these figures though. The medical system just makes things up too, so I am not alone in this pursuit. These figures are just logicial inevitabilities. Note - These figures are far more reliable than a medical system which just tells gross lies to the community about health issues.

I'd also like to point out that what my opponent is saying about the endocrine, or hormone system, is false. In fact, one of the mentioned halogens, chlorine is a minor element. It is essential to the acid-base balance in the body and helps balance the charge of blood cells.

It depends on what form the chlorine takes. Naturally obtained chlorine is perfectly OK. But, if you introduce a chemically manufactured chlorine which is not food based, you will encounter problems. The human body is not designed to deal with chemically manufactured chemicals that can interrupt chemical exchanges and actions.


Also, the allegation that the endocrine system is based on iodine is also false. My opponent might be referring to the thyroid hormone feedback loop that produces thyroxine, in which iodine is needed to bind it. A deficiency of iodine can cause hypothyroidism, a condition in which not enough thyroid hormone is produced.

http://www.livingnaturally.com...


The term "leaky gut" refers to a diagnosis that has yet to be made [4]. General symptoms such as bloating, gas, stomach cramps, and food sensitivity are all incredibly vague and could point anywhere. I will admit that some people have sensitivities to carbs, as I myself am one of them. However like allergies, it is not an all-encompassing thing.

Dairy, grain and sugar cause 98% of all disease. That includes - poor vision, headaches, nausea, chest pains, gut pains, blocked nose, sore throat, poor hearing, cancer, asthma, diabetes etc etc......
Thus, it is all encompassing.


Additionally, the germ theory coincides with hormones pretty well. Cortisol, or the "stress hormone," actually reduces the effectiveness of the immune system. When a person experiences high levels of stress, they become sick more easily because the reduction of the effectiveness of the immune system,

Stress has little to do with disease. It is more likely a consequence of bad diet. When you eat too much grain food, your pulse rate and body temperature will increase and cause nausea (cold or flu symptoms) This is because grain food is a bird food and is not suitable for humans. Birds has a body temeprature of 40 degrees celcius while humans have an average body temperature of 37 degrees celcius. Thus, when you eat too much grain food your body's metabolic rate will increase to that of a bird.


Bacteria will become dangerous when you add too much nutrents into he system. Think of a river which has been polluted by fertilizers. The river becomes clogged with weeds and algae because there is an unnatural balance of chemicla nutrients. When you eat too much grain food, these unnatural bacteria will be released into the blood stream via leaky gut syndrome.

My opponent also neglects the modes of transmission. Touching your eyes, nose, and mouth easily transmits pathogens - you"re physically putting them inside you. Being in a place in which someone has coughed or sneezed, breathing their air puts the pathogens inside you.

This is all nonsense. Disease is not transferred by touch, nose or mouth. People who eat similar foods all get sick at the same time which gives the illusion that a disease is spreading from person to person. All you ned to do is to stop eating grain, sugar and dairy and the so called "disease" will soon disappear.

Note - In the past, huge epidemics were caused by dead fish caught in water pipes, volcanoes and bad diet. NOT GERMS!

grandma-complex

Con

1- If I tell my mother that the paint going in the kitchen looks lovely when I despise it, I'm not breaking the law. She may go on to hang art I dislike; this isn't illegal.

Similarly, facts found from science - even if they are stolen - do not mean they are no longer facts. Medical procedures built on those facts aren't illegal. I'd also like to point out that even if they were stolen, the protections over intellectual property run out 70 years after the death of the author. [1] Pasteur died in 1895, and we are past 1965. Whoever originally came up with the concept's ideas are now in the public domain, making medical procedures still legal.

2- The legal system does not favor medical professionals. I wish it did, but since for-profit medical malpractice is something my father has been subject to, I have to disagree. Thank goodness for tort reform.

3- My opponent presents the Vaccination Liberation website as a source. This is a home page and due to its rather 2005-looking HTML and poor navigation features, I'm not sure where to begin searching for what Pro is referring to. I'd like to ask him to find a more specific source. He also fails to explain how it would be beneficial for those not within Big Pharma to just accept the theory.

Important note: Upon attempting to look through some of the "facts," I was redirected to a website asking for a credit card to sign up. This is most likely a phishing attempt, and this usually points to malware within a website. Beware.

Pro is correct in saying the overcrowding does not cause disease. He is also correct in saying that it is lack of sanitation. However, overcrowding expedites transmission of disease. It would be significantly easier for a pathogen to cover a lot of ground with its hosts in the same place, and easier still when they don't have sanitary living quarters.

Now, modern vaccines are not based upon animal/blood mixing myths, they are based upon knowledge of the adaptive immune system.

The immune system is divided into two categories: innate and adaptive. You are born with the innate immunity; these cells literally eat foreign pathogens. The adaptive immunity is actually pretty amazing: if a pathogen causes disease, memory cells called B-memory cells will remember how the pathogen presents itself, and (after a reasonable amount of time to build up), will basically call the immune system army to fight the disease.

Vaccines do not entirely prevent disease. You can still get sick from vaccine preventable disease, but certainly not the full blown disease. Since your body has encountered the disease, it knows what weapons to pull to fight it, so to speak. It still needs time to make them.

5- Pro alleges all milk causes disease; I'd like a source. And yes, without refrigeration, milk can be contaminated. This is because refrigeration is an antimicrobial measure: reducing the temperature reduces the speed at which they can produce. Pro is proving my point.

6- "This is a guesstament figure...far more reliable than a medical system..." My opponent is not using specific facts and is guessing. This is not admissible in a debate.

7- The body actually has no way of telling what is produced "naturally" and what is produced "artificially." Chemicals are chemicals, just as H2O is water. Your body wouldn't know if it was from a well or someone combined hydrogen and oxygen and lit it on fire. [2]

8- I examined the living naturally source and am frankly unsure of its validity. The paper is neither peer reviewed nor from a medical doctor, however none of the paper indicates that the entirety of the endocrine system is based upon iodine. A large part including the thyroid is, yes, however Pro did not acknowledge my example of the RAAS system. I may also bring up the testosterone feedback loop as another example.

9- Your "guesstament" still requires a source.

10- The hormones of stress actually raise the population of suppressor T (T cells are part of the adaptive immunity), thus reducing the immune response and making you more susceptible to disease. [3]

11- Pro alleges that the human body temperature will raise to 104 F upon eating grain, which in an adult would warrant a trip to the ER. Such a maladaptation does not exist in the body since eating grain is so commonplace. Also, most livestock eat grain, it is not "bird food." [4] Source please.

12- There is a microbiome of bacteria in the gut, and each population checks another. Usually as a result of inflammation (viral infection, usually), one of the population is able to grow opportunistically, causing disease.

13- People eating similar food that is contaminated certainly get sick at the same time. My mother, sister and I ate at El Fenix and got sick the next day: this is food poisoning. This occurred either because whoever made the food had norovirus, the meat wasn't cooked properly, or combination of both. The pathogens in the food were either not cooked away, or got into the food via another person coughing or not washing their hands properly and touching our food.

The allegation that disease cannot be transferred by touch, nose, or mouth is also false. I sat beside a girl in my microbiology class who was coughing up a storm and less than a week later I found myself sick for two weeks. This is not coincidence, this is (aerosol) transmission, as the pathogens traveled via the air sprayed out by her cough and, unfortunately, into my lungs.

Now, as a closing note, the diet lacking dairy, grain, and sugar (or, the fad Paleo diet) that Pro purports as the cure-all has not been proven to eliminate disease. It spurns moderate weight loss, yes, and reduction of fasting glucose along with heart disease, but elimination of disease? According to multiple studies, absolutely not.[5]

I'd also like to raise a question to Pro: why does the immune system exist if not to fight pathogens?

Re: note: Dead fish are reservoirs!

[1] tinylink.net/VL1CR
[2] tinylink.net/vSc0V
[3] tinylink.net/SsCg1
[4] tinylink.net/ZtY
[5] tinylink.net/iOt33
Debate Round No. 2
Akhenaten

Pro

1. A doctor that gives a patient a medication that is unnecessary or dangerous to the individual is committing a morality crime. The legal system allows doctors to do crazy things because they are under the false impression that doctors are there for the benefit of mankind. But, doctors are only there to make money and have a prestigious job which is highly regarded in the community. The public are generally blind to the fact that doctors are deceiving the public on most health care issues.

2. In critical cases like cancer therapy, the doctor will always win a court case. Doctors use the court system to weed out alternative medical practioners. This reduces competition and makes the public think that aternative doctors are some kind of criminals. This is part of the grand scheme of propagangda that the medical system plays to deceive the public.

3. True to form, my opponent tries to trivialize my reponses. My opponent shows his apparent lack of computer skills or is he just playing dumb to make life difficult for those that don't agree with his views. Hmmmm???? Son of a doctor! Yeah, I think I get it now!
He just protecting his dear old daddy's reputation. lol!

4. "overcrowding expedites transmission of disease".
Overcrowding has nothing to do with transmission of doseases. It is purely bad diet, unsanitary waste and dirty drinking water which is contaminated with fecal material.
Its the side-effects of overcrowding whch cause disease. These side-effects may take the form of low nutrition, polluted environment and little or no sunlight.

5. "Vaccines do not entirely prevent disease".
More accurately, vaccines don't prevent any disease. Adverts for disinfectants always say that the disinfectant kills 99% of all germs. Why do they always say only 99% of germs and not 100% of all germs? That's because it is a scam. Disinfectatants don't kill any germs. That's because there aren't any germs there in the first place. Bacteria only exist in the gut or in a pleasant fluid environment which has plenty of nutrients at the right temperature. Thus, they can't susrvive on the surface of dry materials for any length of time. The medical system always leaves room for error and mistake. Note - If a disinfectatnt agent only kills 99% of a particular germ, then, the disinfectant agent is totally useless. Thus, vaccines are useless as well.

6. My opponent is using infromation which has all been proven to be false. Thus, my guesstaments are far more reliable and trustworthy than what his lies and medical system reguritations are.

7."The body actually has no way of telling what is produced "naturally" and what is produced "artificially."
False! If you swallow some pure chemical chlorine you will be dead in seconds. Whereas, if you take chlorine in a natural food form it will be beneficial. Thus, the body KNOWS even if YOU don't.


8. https://jonbarron.org...

I have demonstrated the the medical system is corrupt and can't be trusted.

ref - Luis Pateur's experiments were hidden from public's view and later examined by Gerald L. Geison (The private Science of Louis Pasteur) His experiments were shown to be full of mistakes and deceptions.
Note - The experiments of Luios Pasteur are supposed to be the foundations of modern medical science. If his experiments were just a huge fraud, then where does that place modern medical science?
Answer - Modern medical science is a fraud as well.

10. The only way to make your body weak and susceptible to disease is by eating a bad diet which lacks vitamins and iodine. Eating too much grain will open the ducts of your intestine and allow any bad bacteria to enter your blood stream. The concept of germs attacking your body from an exterior source is a total fallacy.

11. The body has a tipping point. You can eat some grain without getting sick. But if you continually eat TOO MUCH grain and not enough vitamins, then you WILL get sick.

12. Bad bacteria need bad foods to grow on. If you avoid grain, sugar and dairy your gut wont grow any bad bacteria. Its as simple as that!
grandma-complex

Con

1- A doctor prescribing a medication that is unnecessary and "dangerous" falls under the umbrella of medical malpractice. Pro and I can agree that this is wrong. However, each medication has what is called a therapeutic index, or the dose at which a medication produces a therapeutic response. Some medications - especially cancer drugs - have incredibly small therapeutic indeces, and require skill to prescribe and administer them. This can be considered "dangerous," however all doctors way the cost of the benefits against the disease itself. I'd like a specific source detailing that doctors are only there to make money.

2- What causes a legal case to become critical? The severity of the disease? Claiming that doctors use the court system and the court system allows this requires a study, an article, a source of some sort.

3- Unfortunately when utilizing a source, one cannot expect his or her opponent to have to search for the information. The source is to be specific and to the point, as is when writing an academic paper... Pro directed me to a home page and expected that I find his source for him. Additionally, while I was taught to evaluate a source for validity, there were a few qualifications of a good source. Typically a credible source is organized, streamlined, and professional looking, as is with most academic databases such as the well trusted EBSCOhost. This is not the case with vaclib: it is a website with HTML that appears straight out of the early 2000s. There isn't much rhyme or reason the organizational structure, the font is inconsistent, and there is a smattering of images everywhere without consideration for readability. By these counts alone, I do not find this source credible.

I will also note, again, that some of the "Facts" pages contain phishing attempts and malware; proceed with caution (and a good antivirus).

Pro is accusing me of lacking computer skills or playing dumb, and is also implying I have low intelligence for a daughter of a doctor. This is compleletely inappropriate behavior for a debtae.

4- Overcrowding has everything to do with transmission. Waste is by definition unsanitary, as it is rife with nutrients and bacteria. Dirty drinking water is also rife with waste and bacteria, which makes it unsanitary. What causes someone to become sick if the water is dirty if not bacteria? I'd like to turn Pro to an article on coliform bacteria and the purity of drinking water: [1]

On a different note, I will again state how overcrowding influences the spread of disease. In close quarters where people utilize unsanitary practices, disease spreads quickly. Take cholera, a bacteria that uses the fecal to oral route. Unsanitary waste management paves the way for transmission, as handling waste and not washing your hands and then going on to touch your mouth or eyes easily allows the disease to spread.

5- Source on vaccinations not preventing disease, period?

Re: disinfectants not killing all germs.. Disinfectants do indeed kill most pathogens. However, endospores, resistant Gram negative bacteria, and protozoan cysts are rather hard to kill. [2] We can observe the lack of bacterial growth by placing pellets of antibiotics on a prepared petri dish of bacteria. It was actually a lab I did last semester. [3]

Pro also states that if a disinfectant is not 100% effective (which no disinfecting method is), it is useless. This is false, as the body can much easier handle a smaller fraction of a lethal dosage of bacteria.

6- What source proves my sources false? And what allows Pro to guess and become more credible? He is not a proven doctor, scientist, microbiologist, or physiologist. Simply because he does not believe in conventional medicine does not mean he is correct.

7- Pro has committed the fallacy of false equivalence. Pure chlorine is a gas, firstly. Pure chlorine is also pure chlorine, meaning you're probably going to get at least 1,000,000 times more chlorine per intake of breath than in the trace amount in whatever food you happen to be eating. But if you happen to ingest a trace of pure chlorine and also ingest a hint of chlorine in food of equal amount, again, the body has no clue what came from where. Molecules are molecules regardless of their origin.

8- The source given actually corroborates with medical knowledge. It is irrelevent to his continued argument.

It does not matter if Pasteur lied and used deception in his experiments. The fact is that the experiment that disproved spontaneous generation is repeatable and will produce the same exact results over and over again. This experiment was not a fraud; in fact, you can watch a model here. [4]

9, 10, 11- I have already stated in Round 2, point 13 that the Paleo diet does not prevent disease according to science. I can also attest to becoming sick while eating very low carb, as diet does not determine immunity. He has failed to provide a source in which the Paleo diet cures all ailments.

12- "Bad" bacteria can grow on anything that caters to its nutrition needs. This is why we cook meat: bacteria grows in rare meat, and if you eat undercooked meat, you can become sick. This is a hole in Pro's "grain, sugar, and dairy" argument.


[1] http://epi.publichealth.nc.gov...
[2] https://www.boundless.com...
[3] https://image.slidesharecdn.com...
[4] https://www.youtube.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Akhenaten

Pro

1. Doctors that treat cancer are acting in a criminal manner because they don't WANT TO understand the true cause of cancer. This is because you can't make any money out of alternative theories other than the germ theory of disease. Cancer is a result of a bad diet which contains too much sugar,grain and dairy. If you want to find a cancer, then, you look for hard calcium deposits. These hard calcium deposits are caused by eating and drinking too much dairy products. The sugar and grain diet will feed the cancer, once it has formed. Cancer being a cell which has reverted to a more primitive state due to low oxygen levels and lack of iodine in the system to enable apoptosis. This information is not taught in medical schools because you can't make any money out of iodine and giving dietary advice to patients. Thus, the true criminal nature of establishment medical practices is revealed. Modern cancer therapy is essentially just an extortion racket. The pharmaceutical industry is no better than any South American illegal drug cartel.

2 & 3. Due to my opponents apparent lack of computer skills, I will direct them to a page which has information by Dr Richard Moskowitz and Wade Frazier that reveals that vaccination doesn't work.

http://www.vaclib.org...


http://ahealedplanet.net...

4. Germ theory is all about germs coming from the AIR and being the CAUSE of the disease. Both of these assumptions are wrong. The bacteria that makes people sick don't come from the air for a start, they are already in the gut. The bacteria in the gut wont make you sick because bacteria belong in the gut. Its only when the bacteria enter the blood stream that they cause a problem. They can only get into the blood stream if you eat too much grain food which opens the gut wall and allows the bacteria to enter the blood stream. Thus, it is the GRAIN, DAIRY AND SUGAR THAT CAUSE the disease and the BACTERIA IS THE RESULT of the disease and is NOT the cause of the disease. Thus, germ theory is both wrong and false.

5. Doctors don't understand what causes disease. This is why they can't kill bacteria in the hospital. They foolishly give patients drugs which destroys the body's ability to stop infection. These chemicals include chlorine, flourine and bromine in the form of general anesthetics. These chemicals will disable the body's hormone system and render it in an undefended state.

6. False equivalence? Don't be fooled by these medical charltans. Just because they wear white coats dosen't mean they know anything special. I wasted 10 years of my life in hospitals getting one false diagnosis after another, until I did my own research to find out what my problem was. It turned out that I didn't need to have surgery or take any medication as they falsely advised me to do. All I needed to do was to stop eating grain, sugar and dairy and all my medical problems disappeared soon after.

7. The Paleo Diet has worked for me amd millions of others. Once you avoid sugar, grain and dairy you can say good bye to all disease, colds, flu, headaches, stomach pains, chest pains, arthritis, diabetes, asthma, tooth decay, hearing loss, bad eyesight and DOCTORS.

http://thepaleodiet.com...

grandma-complex

Con

1- Why would doctors not want to understand the true cause of cancer? Is there not money to be made curing cancer? And is Pro alleging that "alternative theories" cannot be used to make money? This isn't true, obviously, because naturopaths do make money to the tune of about $74,000 a year in my state. [1]

Calcium deposits? Pro is incorrect on identifying cancer. Cancer is typically found using Complete Blood Count tests that search for tumor markers secreted by the cancer. [2] That is, usually after a patient experiences cancer-like systems or finds a lesion of some sort.

Pro is also incorrect on what cancer is. Cancer is a rather complex topic in and of itself, but the basics for the reader are the following. The cell cycle is essentially the life cycle of a cell. They grow, synthesize some DNA, grow some more, then go through mitosis (or cell division). What's keeping this from going totally out of control? Proto oncogenes. These genes regulate the cycle to keep it from going absolutely haywire, but like all genes, these can mutate. Cancer is a condition in which the tumor regulating genes of a cell mutate, allowing the cell cycle to run unchecked. The mutated genes get passed down through every cell division since mitosis creates two exact copies of the cell, and this keeps going until a tumor, or a mass of cancer cells, appears.

Pro also asserts that reduced apoptosis is the result of lack of oxygen and iodine. This is also untrue. Apoptosis, or "programmed" cell death, is down regulated due to the mutation of tumor regulating genes. [3]

However this entire racket is incredibly off topic. The point is: the germ theory does not encompass all disease. Cancer is not usually caused by pathogens, but it can be caused by pathogens.

2, 3- Pro again insults my computer abilities despite having linked to a website that does not lend itself to credibility or safety while insisting that I search for a source that only he is supposed to provide.

Both articles can be a subject for debate given their length and I will not examine them here as they are, again, irrelevant. Ironically enough, Pro proves my point by mentioning vaccines at all. If vaccines don't work at all, and people get infected in the first place.. what exactly is causing the disease?

(And for the record, since this whole antivax thing started, the incidence of mumps and measles has skyrocketed.)

4- Germ theory does not assert that germs come from the air. In fact, Pasteur proved that they did not come from the air when he disproved spontaneous generation. Germs give rise to more germs, just as humans give rise to more humans. The germ theory also states that many diseases are caused by microbes, but not all.

Pro also fails to recognize the pathogenic activity of viruses, prions, fungi, and other parasites.

Pro states that bacteria cause disease when they enter the bloodstream through the gut (which is the pathogenesis for sepsis, not literally any disease), but then turns around and says that bacteria is the result of disease. He may argue that the underlying disease was inflammation due to "GRAIN, DAIRY, AND SUGAR," but inflammation from the gut does not cause the far reaching problems he has mentioned such as "poor vision, chest pains, blocked nose, sore throat, poor hearing, [etc]." This is utterly illogical. Bacterial colonization may cause these disorders, but they did not, most likely, come from the gut.

A question for my opponent: if germs are the result of disease, then why does their removal result in the organism becoming healthy again?

5- I believe my opponent is referring to antibiotic resistant diseases and those infections that can be caused by doctors. Iatrogenic infections unfortunately can happen, however it is not as doctors and nurses do not understand what they're doing. An antibiotic, on the other hand, does not touch the hormonal system (excluding the link between tetrocyclines and birth control). These work on bacteria themselves, and are typically not given with general anaesthetics unless the client is in in-patient care.

Pro states that because a medicine's formula includes a molecule or two of flourine, chlorine, or bromine it is inherently toxic. I would like a source for this, as general anaesthetics are not designed to work with the hormone system and instead work with the central nervous system to numb pain and induce sleep. As of right now only 3/5 current general (I believe Pro is referring to inhalational) anaesthetics include flourine. The others are nitrous oxide and xenon [4]. In fact, none of the currently used anaesthetics use bromine. [5-9]

Pro insisted in round 2 that there is no connection between the endocrine and immune system. Does he ignore the immune system entirely, or does he acknowledge the link now?

6- I understand Pro's frustration with the medical industry. It can be difficult to find the correct diagnosis and I am happy that he has found something that works for him.

7- Pro has linked me to a source that provides over 35 years worth of studies. Again, instead of finding a source that backs up his claim, Pro is expecting me to do it instead. It is not my responsibility to do so, though Pro may blame this on "lack of computer skills." Skimming through some I have yet to find a study that claims that the Paleo diet is the panacea for all disease, and am still forced to come to the conclusion that it is not.

[1] https://www.sokanu.com...
[2] http://www.mayoclinic.org...
[3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[7] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[9] https://en.wikipedia.org...

Debate Round No. 4
Akhenaten

Pro

1. Doctors don't want to understand the true cause of disease because you can't make any money out of the alternative to germ theory. Naturopathic doctors are the same as allopathic doctors. I don't differentiate between them. ALL DOCTORS are fraudsters and charlatans. That's the way its been since the beginning of time when witch doctors shaked a rattle to scare away evil spirits. Its just a way to make a living out of other peoples gullibility. It is just a myth that doctors have super powers that can fix any human problem. The universe is a simple place which has simple low cost solutions. Its only humans that are complex and make life difficult for themselves and others by creating foods which are unsuitable for their digestive systems. This is the crux of the problem. It has nothing to do with germs or germ theory which is just primitive voodoo magic talk.

2. That leads us to vaccination. Vaccination is based on primative tribal beliefs which goes back thousands of years into our primordial past. Primative man believed that animals had super powers because they never got sick like humans do. Thus, primative man decided that the blood of animals must have super powers that can stop disease. Thus, primative man decided to kill some animals and get their blood and mix it with human blood so that the animals super powers could be transferred over to humans. Edward Jenner heard about these old folk tales and thought there must be some kind of a scientific basis to this primitive thinking. Thus, began the age of the vaccination which still endures to this very day.

See vaccination liberation website to see that vaccination has no effect what-so-ever at eradicating disease.


https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com...

3. "Calcium deposits?" ?????


https://www.breastcancercare.org.uk...

4. "Cancer is one of the scenarios where too little apoptosis occurs, resulting in malignant cells that will not die."

This is a quote from cons own reference source number 3

Thanks con, you have added weight to my argument by giving evidence which further proves my case. Thus, iodine deficiency and lack of vitamins is the cause of cancer. This is because the hormone system is iodine based and uses iodine to carry out apoptosis. Thus, this proves that both doctors and con do not understand the mechanism of cancer. Her ignorance still persisted even after reading an article which demonstrated the facts. That's incredible! This is clearly a demonstration that years of brainwashing can completely blind some people.

5. "Pro also fails to recognize the pathogenic activity of viruses, prions, fungi, and other parasites."

Viruses and prions don't exist. I have worked in an electron microscope lab and have never seen any. Note - It would be physically impossible to photograph one if they did exist. Fungi and parasites have little to do with disease. These things only occur if your diet is improper which allows this type of invasion due to lack of a defence system.(Lack of vitamins and iodine)

6.con - "inflammation from the gut does not cause the far reaching problems he has mentioned such as "poor vision, chest pains, blocked nose, sore throat, poor hearing, "


https://www.celiac.com...

http://www.livestrong.com...

7. "A question for my opponent: if germs are the result of disease, then why does their removal result in the organism becoming healthy again?"

If something is contaminated it needs to be cleaned. Once the garbage is cleaned the organism will function properly again.

8. Halogens can replace iodine. Any rogue halogen can cause a disruption to the hormone system.

https://modernherbalmedicine.com...


grandma-complex

Con

1- If all doctors (include naturopaths) are fraudsters, why has Pro provided sources by doctors (on the vaclib website) and naturopaths (round 2, source 2)? The sources he used to prove his points are no longer valid, then.

The science of medicine has evolved over time. We are lucky to live in a world that has so many advances in medical technology and fortunately does not rely on supersition and has since been based on scientific evidence. Doctors, and other medical professionals, do not have super powers. They have the knowledge and the training to cure ailments, which involves no spells, incantations, prayer, or voodoo.

2- I have already explained how vaccination works (round 2, argument 3), so I will not do so again.

However, I will explain the holes in the argument that "vaccines don't work," using measles as an example. Pro's resources neglect the critical portion, or the percentage of people vaccinated in order to provide herd immunity. Measle's critical portion is at least 95%. The R0, or basic reproduction number, is the amount of people an infected person will go on to infect. Most vaccinations are about 99% effective, so for a disease that has a ridiculously high R0 as measles (12-18!!), with the "herd's" critical proportion not being met, this is causing measles outbreaks.

3- Pro's source regarding breast calcification states that "Breast calcifications are very common and usually develop naturally as a woman ages. They are usually benign (not cancer). Having benign breast calcifications doesn’t increase your risk of developing breast cancer."

These are not the primary markers of cancer. The primary markers are tumor markers.

4- Still Pro provides no source for his allegation that low iodine and vitamins cause cancer.

Apoptosis has two pathways: intrinsic and extrinsic. The intrinsic pathway uses internal signalling to kill itself, and this is usually brought about be cellular stress. Heat, radiation, viral infection, things of that nature. The extrinsic pathway is activated by a signal binding to receptors on the cell's surface, signalling it to die. This signal is called the death-inducing signaling complex, and it is composed of proteins.. not iodine. [1] Apoptosis does not occur in clinical cases such as cancer because again, the down regulation of tumor regulating genes.

5- Pro has resorted to "if I don't see it, it doesn't exist" logic. This is the same logic of infants around 0-24 months called object permanence. [2] I will turn Pro to some pictures for further viewing: [3,4] are bacteriophages, or viruses that infect bacteria. [5] is the flu. [6] is a prion, though they can be tricky. A prion is literally a misfolded protein that causes other proteins to misfold as well, causing disease.

6- Pro has linked to a celiac disease forum when clearly the context of the argument was bacteria from the gut reaching other places, not genetic disorders.

The livestrong article relates to food poisoning, which is caused by exposure to bacteria in food eaten. The sore throat is not because of bacteria from the gut making their way to the throat, it is because of vomitting causing inflammation in the throat.

Bacterial disease does not just come from the gut.

7- So germs are the "garbage" that takes place post disease? So how is there not a problem until the germs get there? The logic does not follow.

8- Pro links to another source using naturopathic knowledge. Since all naturopaths are fraudsters in his view, this source is inadmissible because he believes that the knowledge it is based upon is fraudulent.

Closing notes: Pro believes all practitioners of any kind of medicine are frauds, therefore making all medical sources he cites therefore incorrect in his view. Pro has insulted my intelligence and ability to use a computer several times. Pro has failed to cite many of his allegations, and insisted that I find my own. Looking at Pro's sources has led me to phishing attempts and potential malware attacks. Vote con.

Despite all of this, I did enjoy the debate. Thank you Pro for instigating such a lively discussion.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[3] https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu...
[4] https://upload.wikimedia.org...
[5] http://ginabaksa.com...
[6] https://cdn.theconversation.com...
Debate Round No. 5
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by whiteflame 8 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: rsz42// Mod action: Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: Con had Pro defending the majority of Pro's points made throughout the argument, stated the lack of sources (although Pro did eventually show them), and found a way to efficiently disprove Pro's arguments. Both sides showed sources eventually, therefore that is tied. Both sides showed equal conduct and grammar, therefore that remains tied as well.

[*Reason for removal*] The voter is required to specifically assess arguments made by both sides. Merely stating that one side disproved the other"s arguments is to general to be sufficient.
************************************************************************
Posted by grandma-complex 8 months ago
grandma-complex
so do girls! adolescence is truly a trial
Posted by Akhenaten 8 months ago
Akhenaten
15 year old boys have more hormones than they can handle. Been there, done that.
Posted by grandma-complex 8 months ago
grandma-complex
we're all hormone driven, akh! <3
Posted by Akhenaten 8 months ago
Akhenaten
Looks like ya got a little hormone driven school boy to vote for ya! lol Go you little wanker! lol
Posted by grandma-complex 8 months ago
grandma-complex
It actually made for a fun few days for me, though I'm sorry the length makes it difficult
Posted by Akhenaten 8 months ago
Akhenaten
Go back to sleep. Life is too hard for you. lol
Posted by Death23 8 months ago
Death23
I really wish people would limit their debates to 3 rounds, with 1 off them being an acceptance round. Judging a 5 round debate fairly is just too much work.
Posted by Akhenaten 8 months ago
Akhenaten
So you found another sycophantic sympathizer or fool to agree with you. That doesn't prove that you are right. It just proves that this website is full of fools and imbeciles.
Posted by Jonbonbon 8 months ago
Jonbonbon
And this is where I drop the mic.
No votes have been placed for this debate.