The Instigator
DaPofoKing
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points
The Contender
aodanu16
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

That th U.S system of Presidential Primaries are contrary to democratic values

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/3/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,762 times Debate No: 3046
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (11)

 

DaPofoKing

Pro

To clarify we this debate I offer the following definitions:

According to Merriam Webster, System is defined as: an organized or established procedure thus in today's round we must look to the United States established Presidential Primary procedure so, as long as the affirmative team can prove in today's round that the Unites States established procedure goes against some democratic values we win today's round.

Presidential Primaries- a method by which a political party chooses its nominees for public office. Winners of primary elections run against nominees of other parties in the general election.

According to Merriam Webster, Contrary is defined as: a fact or condition incompatible with another so being that the resolution states that presidential primaries are contrary to democratic values, If we can prove that presidential primaries are incompatible with the established democratic values we will when today's round.

According to (SEP) or Stanford Encyclopedia: A variety of different approaches have been used to show that democracy has this kind of intrinsic value. The most common of these come broadly under the rubrics of liberty and equality. So in today's round we must look to the essential values of liberty and equality as democratic values.

Now to move on with the debate

1) Presidential Primaries do not offer an Equal Vote to all
Super Delegates are playing a big role this year and being that the majority must rule in a democracy that doesn't seem to be playing a part in this years election being that the super delegates hold the deciding vote in the democratic party and do not have to side with the majority in fact they can go against the majority vote and elect the opposite person into office. According to a February 11, 2008 article posted on Democrats.Org by. Drew Zhu, Probably for the first time since the creation of super delegates, the Democratic party is faced with the real possibility that the final presidential nominee can be chosen by super delegates against voters voices, represented by pledged delegates. If that happens, it might cause quite a rupture within the Democratic Party, and it should. Now the problem is not whether the super delegates hold the deciding vote or not the problem is that the possibility of this to happen is there. "It's not the most democratic way of doing things," Main Super delegate Sam Spencer told CNN February 14, 2008. The fact is that Super Delegates have the power to go against majority rule and that they can strip the power from the peoples hands in doing so equality is harmed because for two reasons 1) Presidential Primaries are valuing Super Delegates votes more than the majority of the population and 2) The actual candidates chances for being a candidate for president are harmed because they could win the majority of the delegates vote and still lose the election because they didn't win the super delegates. If we look to our definition we can see how equality is being harmed by this because the super delegates hold a more powerful vote than the majority of the population. Being that democracy stands for majority rule we see that if the super delegates are making the final decision then it's a minority rule because they have the ability to go against the actual population not only does this go against democratic values but democracy as well. While utilizing super delegates you take away the power of the peoples vote and ultimately place it in the hands of the super delegates.

2)The right to vote for who you want to be president can be lost
There are many different forms of primary voting, there is open and closed primaries. Open primaries allow you to vote for who you would like to be a presidential candidate no matter which political party the candidate is affiliated with. Only twenty states employ a version of the "open primary" system according to Rethinking the vote: The Politics and Prospects of American election Reform (Oxford 2003) an article found in Encyclopedia America. As I mentioned earlier there are closed primaries as well which hinder the voter to only vote for the party in which they are affiliated with this directly impacts back to the resolution in today's round because by not being able to vote for who you believe should be president is not democratic. This is contrary to the voter's liberty which as we can see in our definition is a democratic value because they are not able to exercise there freedom to vote for whom they want. By forcing a voter to stick within there party you will automatically will oppress the voter and thus you are not serving the people which is what democracy stands for and if you go against what democracy stands for you will always harm a democratic value.

3)Another system of primary voting is "top two" which is when the top two primaries candidates will be the two candidates for president. Now you might be asking how is this different from regular primaries, well the answer is that the "top two" primary winners can be from the same party and it could be a pure republican election. After Washington's attempt at "blanket primaries" was shot down by the courts: "The Washington state Grange responded by proposing a "top two" system in which the top two vote getters in a primary would be the candidates on the general election ballot, regardless of their party affiliation. Voters overwhelmingly approved the initiative in 2004, but it was quickly challenged by state political parties because of one feature of the new system. Under the new system, two candidates identifying themselves as Republicans could be the winners, and the Republican Party would have the option of endorsing either one. (According a FirstAmendmentCenter.Org article By.Tony Mauro on 10-01-07) This is a significant problem and is a clear example of how presidential primaries are contrary to democratic values. The possibility of having a one sided election is there, the possibility of not even having a democratic representative in the final election is definitely contrary to democratic values. Equality doesn't exist if there isn't a two party race because no matter the outcome there will be a Republican in office.

With that said I would urge and Affirmative Ballot and Open the floor to the negation.
aodanu16

Con

first off, i concede the definitions...

this is your downfall...

everyone over the age of 18 and is a legal citizen of the US is a possible voter. therefore, since the votes are a secret ballot and the people of the US are voters. if we take this web-site as an example, everyone has the right to vote for a person who is the winner. the same goes for the primaries.

next:

your contention one:

the simple fact of the matter is that the super delegates are elected by people. they are senators, governors, and all other types of high ranking, ELECTED officials... thus, i would like to have this dropped from the debate due to the fact that my opponent is misinformed...

your contention 2:

the fact that the primaries are closed is a good thing because the party MUST elect their own representatives. the people have the right to elect who they want for president because they have that right in the actual presidential election. the open are also good because they offer diversity to the pot. thusly, open or closed, they are a good idea.

finally, your contention 3:

the top two system doesn't matter due to your own definition. since the top 2 people are elected as the runners, then they are going with the democratic values. therefore, i urge a negative ballot.
Debate Round No. 1
DaPofoKing

Pro

My first argument would be that becaause my opponent concedes to my defintions I have already won this round for the following reasons

1)He continues to tal about this "secret ballot" but what he fails to realize is that under my defintion which he concedes to caucuses fall under this and caucuses do not utilize a secret ballot system

2)He uses the example of this website but, this only furthers my point you cannot vote for who you want to win unless you are a member of debate.org. Thus he only strengthens my closed primaries argument because you have to be a member of that party to vote for that party.

3)When he discusses my "contention 1" all he does is restate my point stating that they are elected officials has no relevance to the argument. The fact that they can go againts the majority is what matters and since he concedes to my definition he will lose as well because super delegates votes are worth more than the citizens thus, equality isnt achieved

4) Once again he seems to think he is a very intellegent person but, his arguments hold no water. He states look to your definition but doesnt impact it backm to the topic of the round. Top Two systems violate equality and liberty as i show in my first point. I was hoping for a good debate and we will see if that happens in the next round. Thanks
aodanu16

Con

i really dont care about this debate at all...

i just wanted to see how you debate...

done.

debate cancelled.
Debate Round No. 2
DaPofoKing

Pro

WOW I have never a debater quit right in the middle of a round. I will just further extend my points that I have previously stated. If my opponent trys to atack my case in his next speech. Please see it as a cheap shot and dont buy what he is trying to sell...Thanks
aodanu16

Con

i would never do something so cheap and low like that...

i concede to you and i guess that make me your first so-to-speak...

So...

congratulations Tyler...

you win...

아어다누
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by septim 9 years ago
septim
Closed primaries are necessary because if you could vote for both parties then you could pick the candidate you want in your party and pick the candidate that stands no chance against your party. This could easily result in a one-sided election. Say for example, I am a democrat. I vote for Obama because I want him to win and then I go and vote for someone in the Republican party that is not very well known. With the combined efforts of the democrats the not very well-known person could end up winning the primaries and caucuses and would stand absolutely no chance against Obama or Clinton because the Republican candidate is not known.
Posted by Vi_Veri 9 years ago
Vi_Veri
Hmmm lol, seems we both have opinions on this, too, BigBass3000 :p
Posted by bigbass3000 9 years ago
bigbass3000
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Creator 9 years ago
Creator
DaPofoKingaodanu16Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by twinkiesunite 9 years ago
twinkiesunite
DaPofoKingaodanu16Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by septim 9 years ago
septim
DaPofoKingaodanu16Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by dkerwi8993 9 years ago
dkerwi8993
DaPofoKingaodanu16Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by bigbass3000 9 years ago
bigbass3000
DaPofoKingaodanu16Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by sluggerjal 9 years ago
sluggerjal
DaPofoKingaodanu16Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by DaPofoKing 9 years ago
DaPofoKing
DaPofoKingaodanu16Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Vi_Veri 9 years ago
Vi_Veri
DaPofoKingaodanu16Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by claypigeon 9 years ago
claypigeon
DaPofoKingaodanu16Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by birdpiercefan3334 9 years ago
birdpiercefan3334
DaPofoKingaodanu16Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30