The Instigator
Lookingatissues
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
fishhunter61
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Thats not allowed in America

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/29/2016 Category: Society
Updated: 2 days ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 145 times Debate No: 97438
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
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Lookingatissues

Pro

"That's not Allowed in America."
Has America been slowly over time been turned into a country where the citizens have lost the right to celebrate their traditions, recognition of and the public display of religious expression and patriotic expressions of pride in the country? I believe that its quite evident that this is a undeniable fact in this country today. This freedom of public expression of original traditions of the citizens has slowly been suppress through the countries courts and through its public educational institutions. Can a country long survive when the glue that bonds a countries people together, the traditions of the countries people is no longer practiced in public and relegated to secret observance in the private Sanctuary of the home. I argue that the country is in a state of rapid dissolution and the causes are many but the main cause for the divide in America's people is that they aren't united together through common traditions that originally bonded them as one people, one nation.
Can a country long survive when the glue that bonds a countries people together, the traditions of the countries people is no longer practiced in public and relegated to the secret observance in the private Sanctuaries of the home. I argue that the country is in a state of rapid dissolution and the causes are many but the main cause for the divide in America's people is that they aren't united together through common traditions that originally bonded them as one people, one nation. Freedom to openly practice the traditions of the countries people,"That's not Allowed in America," anymore.
fishhunter61

Con

Hi, I'll debate this with you.
I would normally think first round is acceptance, however you posted an argument so I will to.

My Claim is Americans have the right to have any sort of practice or expression in the country, as long as it does not Break any Laws (Such as injuring/killing someone), and as long as it does not cause major inconvenience to anybody else.

First off my opponent claims the following,
"Has America been slowly over time been turned into a country where the citizens have lost the right to celebrate their traditions, recognition of and the public display of religious expression and patriotic expressions of pride in the country?"
I would answer no to this question. Citizens of the U.S have the right to "celebrate their traditions, recognition of and the public display of religious expression and patriotic expressions of pride in the country" (as my opponent puts it). We have all of these rights and many more.

My opponent also claims,
"the traditions of the countries people is no longer practiced in public and relegated to the secret observance in the private Sanctuaries of the home."
As I said above, as long as it doesn't effect people greatly or break any laws it isn't illegal. We still have the right to do those things in public. However, the problem is people want to do it in the privacy of their own homes. Not many people show their culture outside of their home unless it is a holiday relating to them.

You also argue,
"I argue that the country is in a state of rapid dissolution and the causes are many but the main cause for the divide in America's people is that they aren't united together through common traditions that originally bonded them as one people, one nation."
This statement is entirely wrong. You say we were united though common values that bonded us as one, however what are those common values? America is known as the "Great Melting Pot", Why? Because people from all over the world, with different traditions, ethnicities, values and morals come here. America is a country of Immigrants, and that is what it America was formed on.
You also claim America is in a rapid state of dissolution. How?, currently we are one of the most stable countries on earth.

The first amendment of the Bill of Rights claims the following,
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petitition the Government for a redress of grievances." (source in references)
This is mostly of what my opponent claims has been taken from citizens. However, the U.S has it in written law, and due to that it must be and is carried out throughout the U.S as law.

This is all I have to say right now.
I wish luck to my opponent, and sign off.
Vote Con!

References
1. https://www.aclu.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Lookingatissues

Pro

Thank you for offering to debate the topic with me, I will endeavor to provide an argument that will perhaps will change your opposition to what I postulated.
sotheseedsofliberty2.... Pro..FOR.... posted topic ...Argument Round Number2 .. November 29Th.2016
sotheseedsofliberty2 response
Thank you for offering to debate the topic with me, I will endeavor to provide an argument that perhaps will change your opposition to what I postulated.
You posted,
"
First off my opponent(PRO) claims the following,
"Has America been slowly over time been turned into a country where the citizens have lost the right to celebrate their traditions, recognition of and the public display of religious expression and patriotic expressions of pride in the country?"
PRO ....For traditions to survive they must be commonly practiced and observed by the majority of a nations people. If these traditions are excluded for some reason either by laws or through a lack of use or public familiarity, these traditions in time fade into obscurity.
"while professors and pontificators profess to be tolerant and broad minded ,In practice its strictly a one-way street.."
"None Dare Call it Conspiracy" Kamron
Kirkconnell
Then when a nations traditions such as a peoples Christian religion and patriotic feelings are ridiculed and called into question by elite educators on a daily basis because of their position, have the ability to instill their personal values in their young captive receptive minds. The once commonly held traditions of a people lose their acceptance and significance, traditions have to be observed and honored to remain vital and important to a nations people.
Much like the question asked, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound"
This.... "is a philosophical thought experiment that raises questions regarding observation and knowledge of reality." If Christian traditions and expressions of patriotism aren't publically observed and no one often sees or hears them do they still register in the publics mind. "Can something exist without being perceived...."
Con posted," You also claim America is in a rapid state of dissolution. (How?, currently we are one of the most stable countries on earth....")
pro: America now is a "Debtor Nation: The Rising Risks of the American Dream, on a Borrowed Dime"
".....We have borrowed so much from abroad"between half a trillion and a trillion dollars a year for the past six or seven years"that in 2006, our investment balance with the rest of the world ...Tipped to became an outflow for the first time in more than 50 years. We are a debtor nation swiftly heading deeper into debt...."
Shaw, Jonathan. 2007. "Debtor Nation: The Rising Risks of the American Dream, on a Borrowed Dime." Harvard Magazine. Copy at http://www.tinyurl.com...
Wednesday, Apr 9, 2014
And currently :
As of the end of President Obama"s first term, the National Debt stands at $16.433 trillion dollars. Current Obama administration projections indicate that the National Debt will increase to over $20 trillion by the end of his second term.
The National Debt by President " The National Debt Crisis
thenationaldebtcrisis.com/the-national-debt-by-president/
Lookingattheissues2 Comment here.....CON STATED, Entered below...."America is a country of Immigrants....." But should it still be....

lookingattheissues2 Comments here... Just as the constitution is considered a living constitution, ever evolving and changing with the times so America has changed and must change if it is to survive as a nation. The Nation has evolved just as the constitution, and must evolve with the changing times. Immigration is no longer good for the nation as it once was and the nation must give recognition to the changing conditions.
con POSTED, " America is a country of Immigrants,....." but should it continue to be.
. Immigration is no longer good as it once was for the nation and the nation must give recognition to the changing conditions.
America, for one thing, is no longer a nation with unsettled lands to be settled and populated and therefore immigration is no longer a benefit to the country . Now Immigration has became a burden on the native born Americans.
Executive Summary
The Fiscal Cost of Unlawful Immigrants and Amnesty to the U.S. Taxpayer
By Robert Rector and Jason Richwine, Ph.D.
"Unlawful immigration and amnesty for current unlawful immigrants can pose large fiscal costs for U.S. taxpayers. Government provides four types of benefits and services that are relevant to this issue:
j25;Direct benefits. These include Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, and workers" compensation.
j25;"Means-tested welfare benefits. There are over 80 of these programs which, at a cost of nearly $900 billion per year, provide cash, food, housing, medical, and other services to roughly 100 million low-income Americans. Major programs include Medicaid, food stamps, the refundable Earned Income Tax Credit, public housing, Supplemental Security Income, and Temporary Assistance for Needy Families."
j25;"Public education. At a cost of $12,300 per pupil per year, these services are largely free or heavily subsidized for low-income parents." The costs to America of Massive immigration isn't only to be measured in economic costs alone, there are other significant costs to the nation as well.
"....former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm
gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America....." Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise
and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations
commit suicide.""Here is how they do it," Lamm said:
(First) "Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bi-cultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual ."The historical scholar Seymour Lipset put it this way:
'The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate
are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy.' Canada, Belgium, Malaysia,
Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for
autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans." Lamm went on: (Second:) "Invent 'multi-culturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.
"We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec'...."
Perhaps the costs of a massive flood of Immigrants to America will as former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm warned be very costly indeed and America will cease to be.
fishhunter61

Con

=Rebuttals=
R1. You use the name "sotheseedsofliberty2" in your opening paragraph. Are you referring to yourself as "sotheseedsofliberty2"? Your DDO name is "Lookingatissues". Just curious on why you used this.

R2. My Opponent claims,
" For traditions to survive they must be commonly practiced and observed by the majority of a nations people. If these traditions are excluded for some reason either by laws or through a lack of use or public familiarity, these traditions in time fade into obscurity."
There is no tradition outlawed by the U.S. with the exception of those breaking the law or majorly inconveniencing people. As stated in my original argument this is perfectly acceptable.
My Opponent also claims traditions will be eradicated due to their lack of use. While this is true, how does this help your case? If a tradition isn't being done by the public how is it the U.S. governments fault? People get to choose their traditions, this in no way, shape or form is America's fault.

R3. My opponent claims,
"When when a nations traditions such as a peoples Christian religion and patriotic feelings are ridiculed and called into question by elite educators on a daily basis because of their position, have the ability to instill their personal values in their young captive receptive minds. The once commonly held traditions of a people lose their acceptance and significance, traditions have to be observed and honored to remain vital and important to a nations people.... If Christian traditions and expressions of patriotism aren't publically observed and no one often sees or hears them do they still register in the publics mind. "Can something exist without being perceived...."
You claim people call Christianity and Patriotism into question, however this is just the people, not the american government. The Government cannot stop the people from ridiculing these things, it would be a infringement on your rights. This is actually evidence for me, as free speech is allowed in this country. Also nobody is stopping you from showing your traditions in public. The people might ridicule you, but the U.S government will not stop you.
My Opponent also compares this to a famous physiological quote, one which doesn't make sense in this situation.

R4. I Claimed that America isn't in a rapid state of Dissolution.
Dissolution means the following: "the closing down or dismissal of an assembly, partnership, or official body."
My Opponent tries to counter my claim talking about the Dept crisis. First off Pro just uses a quote here, no explanation. He at least needs to type something in his own words, this is unacceptable. So, What is Dissolving? The answer is, Absolutely nothing. We are still quite stable during this while other world powers are dissolving.

R5. My Opponent argues about Immigration
I'm not here to argue with you on Immigration. The U.S Government supports Immigration, however not illegal immigration. I agree America should accept immigrants, and so does the Government. All of your arguments refer to illegal immigrants, which the government is trying to get rid of. If you are arguing they are trying to destabilize america, this is untrue, and if it was we are still stable. This argument holds no water.

R6. The Constitution and Immigration.
My Opponent claimed the following,
"The Nation has evolved just as the constitution, and must evolve with the changing times. Immigration is no longer good for the nation as it once was and the nation must give recognition to the changing conditions."
I beg to differ, as it is good for U.S growth as shown in these quotes.\
"Immigration also creates businesses. The Partnership for a New American Economy estimates that immigrants are nearly 50 percent more likely to start a business than native-born workers."
AND
"Immigration reform would improve economic growth. The Bipartisan Policy Center estimates that reform would boost gross domestic product by 4.8 percent and productivity by 1.0 percent over 20 years. Reform would also increase U.S. employment and raise wages. The Congressional Budget Office projects it would add 9 million workers to the labor force while slightly increasing wages over 20 years."
Source for both quotes: http://www.washingtontimes.com...
I honestly don't know why we are arguing immigration. I brought it up, but now you are arguing it, and it doesn't prove your point that America restricts rights at all.

R7. More Immigration!
Once again you cannot just spam quotes, you at least need to summarize with your ideas.
Before I start my argument I want to quote my Opponent.
" Has America been slowly over time been turned into a country where the citizens have lost the right to celebrate their traditions, recognition of and the public display of religious expression and patriotic expressions of pride in the country?"
Note how you said Citizens. Illegal Immigration has nothing to do with this. Also, as said above the government is trying to deport them, and receive legal immigrants, which are good for the country. Still, however this wouldn't prove any of your points.

Note to my Opponent-
Before I say this, know I am trying to be helpful. You argument, frankly is hard to read and extremely packed together. It is hard for me, or any other voter/reader to read it. Also, Please stop spamming quotes. You need to add your own words.

Conclusion:
My Opponents arguments are inconclusive, some are not about his subject, and they hold no water.

=Arguments=
There isn't much I can argue here.

My opponent didn't address my argument about the first amendment in the bill of rights, so that still stands.

My original argument still stands,
"Americans have the right to have any sort of practice or expression in the country, as long as it does not Break any Laws (Such as injuring/killing someone), and as long as it does not cause major inconvenience to anybody else."
This is completely true and still stands, as America doesn't outlaw any practice, except if it breaks a law.

=Conclusion=
My Arguments still stand, and my Opponents arguments are inconclusive, some are not about his subject, and they hold no water.
I wish luck to my opponent, and sign off.
Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 2
Lookingatissues

Pro

You use the name "sotheseedsofliberty2" in your opening paragraph. Are you referring to yourself as "sotheseedsofliberty2"? Your DDO name is "Lookingatissues". Just curious on why you used this.

Pro: You were curious as to why I had used a different name than the one I normally use on Debate.org.
I Might use the vernacular of the Hip and proclaim, "stuff happens," this was just one of those times.
Maybe I could fall back on what William Shackspere had to say about the use of names when he said," Whats in a name,.... "
William Shakespeare ,"What's in a name? that which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet."
Romeo and Juliet
#1 Con: (There is no tradition outlawed by the U.S.) with the exception of those breaking the law or majorly inconveniencing people. As stated in my original argument this is perfectly acceptable.
# 1 Con: (There is no tradition outlawed by the U.S.)
PRO: The law schools of this country are bastions of liberalism/ progressive ideologies who turn out liberal/ progressive, lawyers and eventually become future judges and some even sit on the Supreme Court determining by their decisions,that they hand down, how people live their lives and the traditions that theyre allowed to practice, Religious practices as well. A article by "The New York Times,"reiterated the effects of a liberal Supreme Court Justice on Americans when it published this article about Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor.The article by Jeffrey Rosen, explained, " We are now living in Sandra Day O'Connor's America." Quote from the book titled, " Disrobed," by by Mark W. Smith.
Former" Chief Justice Willim Rehnquist has written that the Court bristles with hostility to all things religious in public life. Based on a misreading of Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists, the Court has propounded and expanded the concept of a " Wall of separation" between Church And State.
Quote from the book, " Men In Black," by Mark Levin

Why aren't the traditions, Religious as well as Patriotic displays of America and its citizens a regular part of daily lives as they once were.
"John Dewey,"considered to be the father of modern education, a communist, has brought about with his leftist ideologies, the "Secularization," of America by invading the American Classrooms where the countries young children are subtly indoctrinated on a daily basis.
"Secularization,....is now generally understood as a condition in which religious considerations cease to function as central factors in the lives of individuals, even though those individuals may still represent themselves as religious, and may even continue their affiliation with religious institutions...."
Former" Chief Justice Willim Rehnquist has written that the Court bristles with hostility to all things religious in public life. Based on a misreading of Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists, the Court has propounded and expanded the concept of a " Wall of separation" between Church And State.
Quote from the book, " Men In Black," by Mark Levin

#1 Pro:
What constitutes the tradition of a nation "Edward Shils has produced a monumental book entitled Tradition, The University of Chicago Press, 1981. David Armstrong, writing in Quadrant, October (1982) p 71,
summarises his argument thus:"
"Shils takes a wide view of what tradition is. For him it is anything transmitted or handed down from the past to the present. Material objects (the Iliad, the Parthenon), beliefs, images, practices, institutions, can all be tradition , that is, things handed down. The handing down of them constitutes a tradition."...... Such traditions as Christian Religious observances, practices ,and patriotic expressions such as saying " The Pledge of the allegiance ....." He does demand a certain persistence or recurrence through transmission, because tradition has to be distinguished from mere fashion. (Is it the case that a society where traditions are weakened becomes a prey to fashion?) Shils says that there must be three generations to yield a tradition, although the generations might be no more than the 'generations' of school children at a school......." Tradition..."
Quote From 'Edward Shils book entitled, "Tradition," The University of Chicago Press, 1981.
Why aren't the traditions of America and its citizens a regular part of their daily lives as they once were.
John Dewey, considered to be the father of modern education, a communist, has brought about with his leftist ideologies, the "Secularization," of America by invading the American Classrooms where the countries young children are subtly indoctrinated on a daily basis.
"Secularization,....is now generally understood as a condition in which religious considerations cease to function as central factors in the lives of individuals, even though those individuals may still represent themselves as religious, and may even continue their affiliation with religious institutions...."
Quote From 'Edward Shils book entitled, "Tradition," The University of Chicago Press, 1981
I haven't replied to all of your rebuttals in round # 2 but I will return to parts of round # 2 later.
Thank you for your response.
lookingattheissues
fishhunter61

Con

Rebuttals
1.sotheseedsofliberty2
My opponent uses a different name in his arguments, because he wanted to? He even quotes a passage from Romeo and Juliet about a name. This is just a little strange if you ask me.

2. There is no tradition outlawed by the U.S.
I say there is no tradition (that isn't illegal or is a inconvenience) that is outlawed in america. My opponent responds by posting the political ideologies of judges and law students. My opponent posts the political ideologies of these judges, yet doesn't show how any rights are being taken away in America.
My Opponent posts the following,
"Chief Justice Willim Rehnquist has written that the Court bristles with hostility to all things religious in public life"
While it is bad that judges can be hostile to religious things, my opponent still shows no evidence of them taking away rights. Not once does he show how a Judge took away a religious persons rights. My Opponent simply doesn't talk about his argument in any of this. This argument holds no water.

3. Religion Problems
My Opponent posts the following,
"Why aren't the traditions, Religious as well as Patriotic displays of America and its citizens a regular part of daily lives as they once were."
Once again, my opponent doesn't argue his subject. His argument is that religious and patriotic displays aren't as common as they were before. However, the government still allows people to preform such acts. My opponent should be arguing how the government doesn't allow these acts, and therefore not arguing his statement. This argument holds no water.

4. Tradition Problems
My Opponent posts the following,
"Why aren't the traditions of America and its citizens a regular part of their daily lives as they once were."
Once again this isn't your topic. Your topic is about rights that the government doesn't allow. Instead you post about traditions we don't follow anymore. Forcing people to do these traditions would be a violation of rights. The government doesn't make us do these, showing us we have rights. This argument holds no water.

Conclusion:
My opponent doesn't argue about his topic at all during any of the rounds. He simply argues about things we have ceased to do in America regularly, however the government still allows it, therefore meaning they haven't banned it. Your arguments were supposed to be about traditions the U.S. Gov. bans, however you haven't proved one point.


Arguments
I won't be making any new arguments, due to this being the last round.
My Opponent has not addressed, refuted, or acknowledged any of my arguments, so all of them still stand.

Final Conclusion:
My Opponent doesn't argue about his topic during any of the rounds, and he hasn't addressed, refuted, or acknowledged any of my arguments.

I am done with this round, and I am signing off.
Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Lookingatissues 20 hours ago
Lookingatissues
Posted by TheBenC 1 week ago,"Posted by TheBenC 1 week ago "he American flag and American themed parties are being called racist because they might make some people feel excluded, like illegal immigrants"
lookingattheissues reply: These immigrants who shout, 'Racism," whenever immigrants are referred to in some manner that they dislike. Its like a family left their home perhaps for a vacation and while they're gone a family of immigrants move into the families home, help themselves to the families food, their clothes and drive their cars. Well, as anyone would expect, the family arriving home and finding that immigrants had moved in and were helping themselves to the families private property told the immigrants that they had to leave, The immigrants replied, You can't throw us out, we're just trying to benefit from all that America has to offer, that's "racism ," you are just being bigoted, your anti immigrant and besides, the statue of liberty touts Welcome, "...."Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free ...."
Posted by Lookingatissues 20 hours ago
Lookingatissues
Posted by fishhunter61: "If the debate wasn't about your opening statement or title, why did you include either..."
lookingattheissues response: As always when anyone creates a post or talks about anything there are always subtle nuances that are sometimes missed,
Posted by fishhunter61 1 day ago
fishhunter61
If the debate wasn't about your opening statement or title, why did you include either?
Posted by Lookingatissues 1 day ago
Lookingatissues
This debate subject titled," That's not allowed in America," wasn't just about what wasn't permitted to be demonstrated openly on America's main streets but really covered much more about traditions having been, through the courts and through educational institutions loathing and hatred of America's traditions faded into oblivion because of being shunned so often now. This subject is about the massive divisiveness among America's citizens because of the mass flooding of immigrants who choose not to become Americans but continue to remain apart, continue to practice their traditions and speak foreign languages and remain loyal to the countries from which they came. The very systems that were supposed to protect America and its traditions, its culture, have been used to divide the country ,its Courts, and the countries progressive educational institutions.
Posted by TheBenC 1 week ago
TheBenC
The traditions of America have been degraded fairly quickly. Some people consider the US flag discriminatory. That is a new part of the anti-American sentiment growing inside of America itself.
Posted by fishhunter61 1 week ago
fishhunter61
@TheBenC, what are you talking about?
Posted by TheBenC 1 week ago
TheBenC
The American flag and American themed parties are being called racist because they might make some people feel excluded, like illegal immigrants!
No votes have been placed for this debate.