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The 1,001 Inventions Tour is a Fraud & The Golden Age is a Myth

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/5/2014 Category: Science
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,034 times Debate No: 62686
Debate Rounds (5)
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The primary issue being debated is whether the 1,001 Muslim Inventions is a fraudulent exhibit that is historically false and falsely conflates medieval science with modern science. At issue are inventions or discoveries existing long before Islam.

Secondary issues would be the erroneous claim of scientific "miracles" in the Qu'ran, the total lack of Islamic contributions to modern science, and the myth of the so-called "Golden Age" in the Islamic World.


Muslims invented many things and there knowledge was much more than others in the golden age (750 AD - 1258 AD). In 1258 when Baghdad fell to invading mongols all books and scripture of muslims were taken away libraries were burned down. To prove you that muslims made great discoveries, in 1000 AD the library of muslims with the most number of books had more than 400000 books while at the same time the library of christians with the most number of books had only 1800 books. So it is the knowledge of muslims which was stolen by mongols which gave west their current position.
Debate Round No. 1


Contention 1 - The 1,001 Inventions Exhibit is a Fraud

I challenge my opponent to present as many of these 1,001 inventions because I have yet to find any such list leading me to conclude that so far it is actually a handful of inventions. I will provide four examples to illustrate my point and I cannot help but scoff:

A) Coffee - for me this highlights the absurdity of the exhibit given that a beverage would hardly qualify as what we would consider a scientific invention and demonstrates a type of desperation to form a list. Khalid, the individual credited with the discovery of coffee, was an Abyssinian orthodox Christian and goat herder. He shared his discovery with the local monastery. So why is this discovery to be taken as a significant scientific discovery aside from the popularity as a beverage and why do Muslims get credit?

B) Chess - again, what does a popular game, which I happen to enjoy very much, have to do with scientific invention? The game originated in India and was taken up by the Persians prior to the Islamic conquest and it was called chatrang. It differed from the game of chess we have today and the exact rules are unknown. So why do Muslims get credit for a game they didn't originate and a game that was really developed by Europeans as a part of noble culture while going on to become an intellectual sport of sorts? Archaeologists have also uncovered Byzantine chess set dating back to the 6th century showing it was in Europe before Islam and it is worth noting chess is literally forbidden by the prophet Muhammad who compared playing it to washing your hands in the flesh and blood of swine.

C) Windmill - I find it interesting that this claim is that it was invented for a Persian Caliph in 634. There was no Caliph in Persia, this was the year Persia was invaded by the Muslims, and in fact the Caliph Umar was assassinated at mosque in Medina by a Muslim slave in 644 who was described as a builder of windmills. So this proves to be an example of Muslims stealing credit for an invention that was taken upon their conquest. Furthermore, the Greeks wrote about watermills in books like Pneumatica and they were called hydraletes.

D) Flying - this is one of the most frivolous claims of all asserting that a Muslim jumping off the roof of a mosque with a cloak of wooden struts and feathers is used to strip the achievement of the Wright Brothers for their pioneering and inventing the world's first successful airplane used to conduct the first powered, sustained flight in 1903 using concepts like the lift equation. It would be like crediting the Greeks for flight because of the mythology surrounding Icarus. It wasn't an invention or a discovery. The ancient Chinese attempted to construct flying machines and the ancient Greek invention of the aeolipile was clearly significant given using jets of steam to create rotary motion.

Contention 2 - The Qu'ran & Scientific Blunders

Muslim apologists engages in daw'ha (Islamic proselytizing) that shamelessly peddles frivolous propaganda to make the claim that the Qu'ran contains scientific miracles, but in reality there are clear examples of scientific blunders.
A) Flat Earth - In S. 15:19, S. 20:53, S. 43:10, and other verses in the Qu'ran, it is repeatedly said the earth is flat - "...the earth (like a carpet) spread out." Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz, the former supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, has reaffirmed this view. Also, Muslims make prayer (salat) in the direction (qiblah) of Meeca, but this requires a flat earth otherwise all those prayers would actually be toward space. An Iraqi "scientist" has defended this view on Iraqi television.

B) Shooting Stars - In S. 67:5 the Qu'ran informs Muslims that shooting stars, actually meteorites, are allah's missiles fired upon devils. An obvious absurdity contained in the supposedly perfect book of Muslims.

C) Sperm - In S. 86:6-7 the Qu'ran informs Muslims that we are created from a drop emitted (sperm) that comes from between the ribs and back. We obviously know today that sperm comes from the testicles and the pelvic region. Also, it should be noted that it says we are created from sperm alone failing to mention the female ovum.

D) Embryonic Blood Clot Stage - According to S. 96:2, we go through a stage of development where apparently we are but a clot of blood. This is utter nonsense and the authors of the Qu'ran must have take a woman's menstural cycle to form such an erroenous conclusion.

E) A Barrier Between Saltwater and Freshwater - In S. 25:53 the Qu'ran informs Muslims that the separation between saltwater and freshwater is permanent, but this is wrong because an estuary creates a transition where freshwater is kept separate temporarily until the salinity levels eventually homogenize.

Contention 3 - The Golden Age Myth

The Golden Age is a myth built upon another myth that Europe was in the Dark Ages, which is currently regarded it as an inaccurate term to describe the Medieval Period following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. An example is the widely held myth that Europeans believed the earth was flat when in fact the Greeks were writing about a spherical earth as early as 500 B.C., Thomas Aquinas stated the roundess of the earth in Summa theologiae, and it was stated as a fact in the book On the Sphere of the World, which was the most influential astronomy book of the 13th century. The reason Islam spanned from Spain to India was due to the fact that the companions of Muhammad conquered a territory of 5 million square miles by the sword and appropriated the wealth of all those they conquered while having a large population of dhimmis paying their protection money (jizya).

Contention 4 - Muslim contribution to Modern Science is Nothing

Muslims have played no role in the advent of the Scientific Revolution, the Industrial Revolution or the Information Age. Spain, for example, translates more educational material each year than the Islamic world has since the 9th century. Today, we should ask ourselves how many Nobel Prize winners have Muslims produced, which can be counted on one's hand and include unrepentant terrorist Yasser Arafat and Nasser. Two-thirds of Ph.Ds in Saudi Arabia, for example, have a degree in some type of Islamic study and the mufti of Saudi Arabia assured everyone that the Qu'ran is sufficient for Muslims and they don't need any other books. In Bloomberg's ranking of the most innovative countries, Islamic countries don't even enter the top 30.

Rebuttal - The Library in Baghdad

What you forget about the Library of Baghdad is that it was filled with works taken from the School of Nisibis, the School of Edessa, the academy of Jundishapur, the Library of Alexandria, and others. The Umayyad Caliph gathered up many of the Greek works on medicine, alchemy and other disciplines. Christian and Persian dhimmis were used to translate the various works from Greek, Persian, and Syriac into Arabic. Hunayn ibn Ishaq an Assyrian Nestorian Christian physician and scientist, was the most productive translator. You neglect to mention the Abbasid caliph al-Mutawakkil firmly pressed a more literal interpretation of the Qur'an and Hadith and viewed the spread of Greek science as anti-Islamic. Furthermore, the manuscripts were not destroyed in Baghdad but were taken to Maragheh and this doesn't explain the lack of Islamic contribution.


1) Wind mill was not built for a Persian Caliph, it was built under the order of the Caliph Omar for a Persian. Plus Caliph Omar was not assassinated by a Muslim slave but by a Persian slave.

2) Before Islam people thought that the Sky, Earth, Rivers, Oceans, and Stars were gods. It was Muslims who separated the different types of plants and studied about them. It was Muslims who built observatories and studied about the stars. It was Muslims who made irrigation systems to water their crops.

3) Muslims discovered the diameter of the Earth and the distance from the North pole to the South pole in the first place.

4) Muslim scientists were the one of the first to make the modern medicines. The book of medicines written by Ibn Sina alone is a fact to prove it.

5) The Koran never said that the Earth is flat. Also to face towards Mecca the Earth doesn't need to be flat. If the Earth is flat there will be unbelievably strong storms, moreover, had the Earth been flat the sea level will be 12 km above the land.

6) In every humans back there is a bone which will never be destroyed and it will be used to resurrect all humans at the "Day of Judgement".

7) Modern science proves that the Embryo (Zygote) is at first like blood. When an unfertilised Zygote is destroyed the menstruation of a woman happens. So the Zygote it self is blood.

8) If there is no barrier between Fresh water an salt water, why the colour of both is not mixed. Surely if what you say is true the should not change immediately, it will become lighter and lighter until it finally fades away.

9) Islam did not spread by sword the history proves it. Islam spread fast because the Non-Muslims found out the behavior of the Muslims great and wanted to be a part of it. Muslims never forced Non-Muslims to convert to Islam. I challenge you to tell me which Muslim warrior spread Islam in Malaysia, Indonesia, UK, USA, Canada, Russia, Germany, France, Somalia, Belgium, Netherlands, Maldives and many others.

10) The discoveries of Muslims is the basis of the most of the achievements of today. If Muslims are united under a one leader (Caliph) the world will see our true power. You can say that about Muslims because the Great Britain and its allies separated the Islamic world after the World War 1.

11) I agree some of the books were translated but most of them were written by the own hands of Muslims.

12) The science of Greek was only a philosophy not real. All of there inventions were the work of someone else.
Debate Round No. 2


Response to #1 - I see no rebuttal that the windmill was not an invention of the Muslims and was acquired upon the conquest of the Persians. My opponent incorrectly stated the Caliph, Omar, ordered the construction for a Persian when he fact "I heard that you make windmills; make one for me as well." He was assassinated at the Mosque in Medina in retailiation for the conquest of Persia. When I said Muslim slave, I meant he was a Persian slave of the Muslims and not a Muslim himself.

Response to #2 - As for irrigation, Michael Decker (2009) refutes this claim showing widespread cultivation and consumption of staples such as durum wheat, Asiatic rice, and sorghum as well as cotton were already commonplace under the Roman Empire and Sassanid Empire centuries before Islam. Decker concludes that the agricultural practices of Muslim cultivators did not fundamentally differ from those of pre-Islamic times, but rather evolved from the hydraulic know-how and 'basket' of agricultural plants inherited from their Roman and Persian predecessors. Decker shows that basically all important agricultural devices, including the all-important watermills, but also waterwheels, shadufs, norias, sakias, water screws, and various kinds of water pumps were widely known and applied by Greek and Roman farmers long before the Muslim conquests.[1] It has actually been shown agricultural production declined in areas brought under Muslim rule in the Middle Ages. Today, the Islamic World is importing over 50% of the food it consumes. I suppose you are speaking of the Maragheh observatory, that the Persians constructed for Heluga Khan, but it was in ruin a few centuries later. I believe there was one other in Baghdad and large observatory built in Turkisk conquered Constantinople but this bodes poorly for my opponent's case considering the chief Mufti ordered it's destruction in 1580.

Response to #3 - Eratosthenes of Cyrene was the first to calculate the circumference of Earth, I believe you are mistaken in saying diameter, and was only of by .16 percent. He was the chief Librarian of the Library of Alexandria. I'm not aware of any Muslim calculating any distance between North & South Poles much less being aware of them. I would challenge my opponent to substantiate this claim.

Response to #4 - Hippocrates, Galen and Sushruta would negate the claim that Muslims were the first to make medicines and their works were translated into Arabic. It is absurd to conflate medieval medicine with modern medicine, which is light years ahead. Ibn Sina, you forget to mention, was completely baffled the Metaphysics of Aristotle and couldn't understand it until he read a commentary on it. The work exponded on the works of Hippocrates and others, but I will not deny that at the time it would be a work to be lauded. It is worth pointing out here Abu Hamid al-Ghazali in his The Incoherence of the Philosophers attacking falasifa (such as Avicenna and Al-Farabi) who drew on the works of ancient Greeks and others. He denounced the ancient Greeks as non-believers and corruptors of the Islam. Today, the United States alone has developed half of the world's new medicines over the past 30-36 years and aside from the nation of Israel, no country in the Islamic World is making contributions to modern medicine which in part explains the great propaganda effort to point to medieval medicine.

Response to #5 - The Qu'ran does say the earth is flat and does so repeatedly (S. 15:19, S. 20:53, S. 43:10, etc.). The earth would have to be flat for Qiblah to make any sense otherwise when prayers would face out in to space, not Meeca. The fact Muhammad spent 13 years in Meeca making Qiblah to Jerusalem should cause people to pause and seriously question the prophethood of Muhammad.

Response to #6 - What about the Coccyx? It is no different than any other bone and it doesn't decay any differently.

Response to #7 - A zygote is a single diploid cell that becomes a blastocyst so how my opponent can claim Modern science proves it is blood to me demonstrates the absurd desparation and strains to make frivolous claims regarding the Qu'ran conform with modern scientific knowledge.

Response to #8 - Estuaries are classified based on and there are about five different types. I would simply suggest you just try learning about them.

Response to #9 - Islam was spread by the sword by Islamic Ghazis and this is an undeniable historical fact of the 7th century and up. You mention France, but surely you could do some research and discover that upon conquering Spain, the Muslims pushed into what we call France and were defeated by Charles Martel. What about the Rashidun conquests; the conquest of Syria in 637, the conquest of Armenia in 639, the conquest of Egypt in 639, the conquest of North Africa in 652, and the conquest of Cyprus in 654? Why does your video ignore the Umayyads and their conquests; conquest of North Africa in 665, first Arab siege of Constantinople in 674"678, the second Arab siege of Constantinople in 717"718, the Conquest of Hispania in 711"718, and the conquest of Georgia in 736? How about the conquest of Crete in 820 or the conquest of southern Italy in 827? How about the conquests of Persia and Mesopotamia from 633"651, the conquest of Transoxiana from 662"751, the conquest of Sindh from 664"712, the conquest of Septimania from 719"720, or attempts to Conquer the Caucasus from 711"750? Also, what about the Islamic conquests of of Nubia from 700"1606, incursions into southern Italy from 831"902, or the conquest of Anatolia from 1060"1360? The Hindu Majapahit Empire fell to the Islamized Sultanate of Demak would be the most obvious answer about Indonesia. As for the spread in the West, this is being done through Hijrah.

Response to #10 - This is just fantasy on the part of Muslims and explains the appeal of ISIS in the desire for a Caliphate. Japan and South Korea would be two examples of the nonsense of claiming the British "separated" Islamic countries therefore this is why when the more obvious answer is the retardation of Islam on these countries.

Response to #11 - You can disagree all you want but your contention would fail.

Response to #12 - This is our point about the Muslims that today have to travel back in time 800 years or more to lay claim to scientific achievement. Can you please provide some evidence regarding the Greeks?


What Caliph Omar said was, "I will make a mill for you which is not like the others."

Roman empire was once an Islamic empire after Jesus (PBUH) was lifted to the heaven as Emperor Constantine the Great converted his religion to the religion left by Jesus.

I didn't say that Muslims were the first to make medicines but they found out the cure for many diseases which previously considered incurable.

Jerusalem was the first Qiblah of Muslims and Mecca is the second. If my information is not wrong it was not until 2 AH (625 AD) when Allah ordered Mohamed (PBUH) to face towards Mecca to pray.

Islam brought peace and justice to the world. Islam raised the level of women in a society. If Islam is spread by sword why there are 14 million christians in Saudi Arabia. Islam gave the freedom to the people to practice their own religions as they were never forced to convert to Islam.

I never supported ISIS neither do I now nor will I ever. Members of ISIS are not true Muslims. Islam never support violence.
Don't judge a car by it's driver.

You can say what ever you want but remember in the end Islam will always triumph over all others.
Debate Round No. 3


I would like to remind my opponent that this is a debate. Most of my case, which I purposely trimmed back forseeing this debate, has still gone relatively unchallenged. More importantly, my opponent has really not even attempted to make a case and what few points he has attempted to raised have been thoroughly addressed by my rebuttal. Nevertheless, I shall forge ahead and conclude this debate but I must make my disappointment known.

My Rebuttal

Claim: What Caliph Omar said was, "I will make a mill for you which is not like the others."

Response: No, I've quoted what the Caliph actually said and are you seriously going to claim a Caliph was going to build a Persian slave a windmill? This is historical nonsense. I recounted the history and sustained my case for why windmills were not an invention of the Muslims. The irony of the story is the Persian builder, made a slave, assassinated the Caliph in Medina in revenge for the conquest of Persia.

Claim: Roman empire was once an Islamic empire after Jesus (PBUH) was lifted to the heaven as Emperor Constantine the Great converted his religion to the religion left by Jesus.

Response: Clearly we are not on the same page and I have absolutely no idea where you get this idea that an Islamic Empire existed before the Roman Empire given Islam didn't exist before the 7th century. Given that I will just briefly take this time to rail against Muhammad trying to conscript Jesus into his religion given that the Qu'ran calls Jesus both the Word of God and the Spirit of God, attests to his virgin birth, attests to the miracles he performed, and as my opponent points out ascending to heaven all the while they actually elevate Muhammad above Jesus and deny every single word and teaching he left the world. Adding insult to injury, the Qu'ran commands warfare against Christians until they convert or are subdued under Islamic rule while crudely copying Revelation but having an anti-anti-Christ mahdi meet with Jesus in Jerusalem to presumably slaughter all the Christians and Jews in the world. And you can know all this and still be a Muslim because...wait for it...I have a feeling someone is going to then allege corruption of a book even though they have not even a hint of an original but we know their verses were partially composed by Muhammad's Christian scribe who converted back to Christianity saying Muhammad knew nothing which he had not written, that was largely memorized and orally passed around by illiterate Arabs, Aisha narrated a Hadith saying a goat consumed some verses, and of course the original burning of the Qu'ran and manuscripts was done on the orders of Caliph Uthman. How a Muslim can rationalize this and still be faithful to Islam is beyond me. Yes, Constantine adopted Christianity. The end.

Claim: I didn't say that Muslims were the first to make medicines but they found out the cure for many diseases which previously considered incurable.

Response: You said previously, "Muslim scientists were the one of the first to make the modern medicines." That aside, what incurable diseases were cured then? Could you name a few? In the era of modern medicine, Islamic countries in the Middle East and elsewhere (although Israel does) don't even have a pharmaceutical industry and are developing no medicines.

Claim: Jerusalem was the first Qiblah of Muslims and Mecca is the second. If my information is not wrong it was not until 2 AH (625 AD) when Allah ordered Mohamed (PBUH) to face towards Mecca to pray.

Response: I think you missed the boat, because what I was getting at was the fact the prophet of Islam spent 13 years in Meeca but was making Qiblah toward Jerusalem and for over a year he made Qiblah toward Jerusalem, although the world is not flat as the Qu'ran says making Qiblah a futile practice, and then suddenly he changed direction to Meeca. It bodes poorly for a supposedly divine prophet to be praying all those years in the wrong direction. It has been noted that the practice was in imitation of the Jews making prayer and that it was seen as a cynical attempt to win over them until the relations between Muhammad and the Jews in Medina soured making the change a spiteful reaction.

Claim: Islam brought peace and justice to the world. Islam raised the level of women in a society. If Islam is spread by sword why there are 14 million christians in Saudi Arabia. Islam gave the freedom to the people to practice their own religions as they were never forced to convert to Islam.

Response: Let's get this right, Islam brought the sword to the world, 5 million square miles of it following Muhammad's death, and I would seriously dispute the idea that Sharia or Dhimmitude represent any kind of justice in the world. The prophet of Islam himself resorted to raiding caravans, killing the men, carrying off the women as sex slaves along with all the loot they could carry. I really fail to see how Islam elevated women in society. Perhaps you forget that before there was Islam, Muhammad's first wife was 40 years old and had two previous marriages before proposing to Muhammad who was only 25 years old. She was a wealthy merchant of the heretical Ebonite Christian sect. You have a hard time selling this when Muhammad said women are deficient in intelligence i.e. stupid and his beloved child bride told him directly that he had made women equal to dogs and asses. She also remarked that no woman suffers greater than the believing women i.e. Muslim women after taking a woman to Muhammad who had been beaten so badly by her husband her skin was green. Today, the Pashtun men in Afghanistan seem to think women were made unclean and homosexuality is common although they deny the label to demonstrate that women are regarded so lowly that they are only there to produce children. That's an extremely easy point to refute, because there are not 14 million Christians in Saudi Arabia. To the extent there are, we are talking about temporary workers from places like Southeast Asia, that serve as a type of slave labor or foreigners permitted to enter temporarily to work. It is illegal to practice Christianity or any religion other than Islam. It is illegal to bring even a single Bible or other religious items or symbols. All non-Muslims are barred from entering Meeca or Medina. Non-Muslim religious clergy are forbidden to enter the country. The religious police are on the look out for any sign of anyone practicing a religion other than Islam. The idea that you could actually use a bogus number and this frivolous example is simply outrageous. Believe me, Islam didn't give the freedom but they sure as hell will take it. Your prophet is literally quoted as saying he is commanded to fight people until they take the shahada!

Claim: I never supported ISIS neither do I now nor will I ever. Members of ISIS are not true Muslims. Islam never support violence. Don't judge a car by it's driver.

Response: You don't support ISIS, but you have a picture of Osama Bin Laden? Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the self-declared Caliph of ISIS, has a Ph.D. in Islamic Studies so surely he knows a thing or two about Islam. My problem with these supposed claims about ISIS coming from Muslims is you can't seem to actually point to any Islamic teaching they are going against. Saying Islam doesn't condone violence is more than absurd given Muhammad and his followers were raiding caravans, killing off the Jewish tribes of Arabia, invading tribes for the sole purpose of converting them, and ordering assassinations even if it took lying to achieve the goal. Your claim gets even more difficult when we look at what Muhammad's companions did conquering territory after territory, people after people, with the sword in hand to establish the first Islamic caliphate. You have a problem when the eighth chapter of the Qu'ran, literally called War Booty or Spoils of War, offers beheading, striking terror into the hearts of unbelievers, make war on infidels until there is no more disbelief, and Bin Laden's personal favorite (8:60) make ready all the power you can against allah's enemies. It gets extremely harder when you turn to the aya of the sword and the other verses of chapter 9. I prefer Jesus' example that you can judge a tree by it's fruits. So what exactly has ISIS done that Muhammad didn't do?

Claim: You can say what ever you want but remember in the end Islam will always triumph over all others.

Response: Consider the source! You surely aren't going to triumph in this debate. Hitler had the same idea and in the end he put a bullet in his head while eating cyanide. As this debate attempted to demonstrate, science and technology is light years ahead in the non-Muslim countries. The best Hamas can offer is firing from hospitals and digging tunnels because the idea they would meet the IDF in open, real battle would only expedite their becoming shaheed and going off to allah's brothel in Jannah. Islamic Supremacism lends itself to delusions of grandeur. Some of us non-Muslims are in the know and know precisely what Islam is all about.


RESPONSE 1: What is wrong with the ruler building something for one of his subjects. In Islam there is no different between a Caliph and slave. Everyone is equal with the same rights. So we should not be surprised about "Caliph Omar building a windmill for a Persian slave."

RESPONSE 2: All prophets from prophet Adam(PBUH) to prophet Mohamed (PBUH) called for only one religion and that is Islam. In the beginning Islam was the only religion that existed. Judaism was created when Jews altered the true message of prophet Moses (PBUH), Koran says "Surely we sent down the Torah unto Moses, it has light and faith within it." So it is proved that it was Allah who sent down the Torah to Moses. About Christianity, some time after the elevation of Jesus Christ, Jews changed the Gospel by adding some to it and taking out some of it. Mohamed (PBUH) is perfect human being who never sinned and he is the one who all of us should take as an example. You are wrong by saying Mahdi will meet Jesus in Jerusalem, After Dajjal corrupt the Earth Jesus Christ will come back to set things back on the right path. He will come to lead the Dawn prayer in a mosque of Damascus and Mahdi will pray behind him.

RESPONSE 3: Muslim scientists and doctors discovered the cure of many stomach diseases, plague and some kinds of cancers.

RESPONSE 4: Even a prophet could not go against the order of the god (Allah). Kaaba was the first mosque built on Earth by prophet Abraham and his eldest son prophet Ismail in Mecca. Aqsa mosque is the second mosque that was built on the Earth by prophet Ishaq (PBUH) in Jerusalem. During the time of prophet Moses people found it difficult to face Kaaba while praying so when prophet Moses asked Allah told him to face towards Aqsa mosque. It was the Qiblah of Muslims until Allah ordered to face towards Kaaba again 2 years after the "Hijra". Koran says "People who are mad will say why Muslims has changed their Qiblah? Say to them the east and the west belongs to Allah. He shows the right path to who ever he wishes. Behold we made you a neutral nation so that you will swear upon people on the Day of Judgement. And to make the prophet swear upon you. We only changed the Qiblah so that we could show you the true believers and the unbelievers. For unbelievers it is surely a huge problem. Allah doesn't wish to turn you away from the faith. Surely Allah is the most merciful god towards people."

RESPONSE 5: Allah had promised the land of Syria, Yemen and Persia for Muslims and has fulfilled his promise. You are misguided to say Mohamed (PBUH) raided caravans. He only intercepted caravans which was carrying the properties of Muslims that the people of Quraish stole after they left Mecca. Khadijah was a christian when 25 years old Mohamed married her but you forgot to mention that she converted to Islam when prophet (PBUH) asked her to. Before Islam came some nations treated women as they were animals while others used women as a facility to gain happiness and Arabs themselves used to bury girls alive. Islam protected them it gave the rights of women to them. Remember in every society there are good people and bad people. Islam is what Muslims are supposed to do. Not what they are doing now. Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) had never married a child.

RESPONSE 5: I am sure you know that Osama bin Laden is not a member of ISIS. Moreover Osama bin Laden is a man of good qualities a man who lived and died for Islam. People like Abu Bakr al Baghdadi are not true Muslims and does not obey Sunni Islam. Every Muslim including my self is hoping for a Caliph to unite all Islamic nations as a one nation. I would like to be the Caliph my self than accepting Abu Bakr (Ibrahim) as the Caliph of Islam.

RESPONSE 6: I may not win this debate but I have faith that the day will come when Islam is the only religion on the Earth and the name of Allah is recited everywhere. I also have faith that Jesus will come as a "Just Ruler" and rule the Earth for 40 years. I really hope to see peace in this world. I really want to see a world where Muslims, Christians and Jews live together as brothers an sisters.
Debate Round No. 4


Clearly this debate has went off topic and my opponent has offered no serious case against the contention nor has he even begun to address my case, which I simplified having anticipated the course of the debate. I apologize to anyone following the debate, but it was an open challenge and I cannot control who accepts it. My opponent only offers a series of disconnected and convoluted comments to promote Islam. I am thoroughly disgusted by his endorsement of Osama Bin Laden, Islamic Jihad warfare and terrorism, as well as his endorsement of Islamic Supremacism. I will offer my finally responses and forever wonder how the West has come to tolerate such outrageous nonsense.

Reply to #1 - What is wrong is the very fact that Caliph Omar did not build windmills much less anything else and I have recounted for you more than once how he commissioned the building of a windmill by a Persian slave and you continually try to twist it the other way around, which I find to be a blatant disregard for basic facts, extremely dishonest, and quite absurd. I would further ridicule the notion that a slave is equal to his master when by the very definition of slave would obviously refute that assertion and is made even more ridiculous by the added assertion that a Caliph, a ruler with complete authority, would be equal to a slave. How you can suggest that a slave, someone who is that is completely subservient and literally owned by another person, has equality with the master is delusional and nonsensical. The surprise is the absurdity given there is absolutely no basis for your assertion and the evidence from history utterly contradicts it. Does a Muslim such as yourself lack any shame when it comes to telling outright lies?

Reply to #2 - There is absolutely no evidence for the assertion that Adam espoused Islam. There isn't a single account anywhere in history of Islam before the time of Muhammad who's own historicity is quite doubtful. Also, Adam was not a prophet, but according to belief was the first man created as opposed to the understanding that prophets were to be an intermediary with humanity. This is a bogus claim made by Islam. You could demonstrate this by the analogy that Muhammad was really a Christian and Muslims altered his message. Regarding the further asinine claim that allah sent anything down to Moses, it was Yahweh, and there is nothing to suggest a change, but what do you expect from a book that also claims Alexander the Great was a prophet of Islam too! And then you raise another false claim about Cristianity being changed by the Jews without any evidence or any original to compare. Must we endure this lie that Muhammad is sinless? Obviously you gloss over his marriage and sexual relationship with a child, his forcing an adopted son to divorce his wife so he could have her after seeing her naked, the murder and theft of numerous Meecan trade caravans, his numerous assassinations of anyone that offended him, his genocide of Jewish tribe, his ethnic cleansing of Judaized Arabs, the practice of taking women as sex slaves that sanctified rape, and despite all the other occurrences you can conclude he never committed a sin? This is extremely delusional and patently untrue. Obviously the absurdity of Islam's Judgement Day is lost on you considering your elevation of Christ above Muhammad, the rise of an anti-anti-Christ, and no I am not wrong about him supposedly joining up with Christ to slaughter the pigs and break the crosses. It is apparently a very short and crude forgery that poorly plagiarizes the Christian account in the Book of Revelation.

Reply to #3 - "Muslim scientists and doctors discovered the cure of many stomach diseases, plague and some kinds of cancers." Can you name them along with the disease and the cure? Can you explain the absence of a Pharmaceutical Industry in the Islamic World and there lack of Nobel Prize winners for such cures? Can you just admit that non-Muslims dominate this field entirely and that Muhammad's medical advice about dipping a fly in your drink is evidence of a completely lack of medical knowledge?

Reply to #4 - There is absolutely no evidence of Abraham ever going to Meeca much less building anything there. Hagar and Ishmael were exiled from Abraham's house. The covenant made clear Ishmael was not to inherit Abraham"s house and that Isaac would be the seed of the covenant. Al-Masjid al-Nabawi in Medina was the second mosque to be construct with the Quba Mosque in Medina being the second. The Aqsa mosque was constructed later by Mu'awiyah I and was really more of a prayer hall until expanded later on using material by deconstructing a church. Your account is completely at odds with history. There was no Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem prior to the Islamic caliphate conquest of Jerusalem and it is ridiculous to encounter the claim that it existed in the land of the Canaanites! It further silly to suggest Moses had any Qiblah, for which no evidence exists, and Moses would pray with his arms stretched toward the sky. The Kaaba was not a mosque, but a pagan shrine up until the time Muhammad violated his hudna and conquered the city. We can strongly disprove his claim to prophet by his very human alteration of Qiblah due to his spite at being rejected by the Jews of Medina. He changed it as he pleases according to the Qu'ran and he changed it toward a pagan shrine, but to deny the embarrassment you to claim it was a mosque. It is a huge problem for Muslims that a supposed prophet could alter so many things whenever i9t suited his desires. The futility in debating with Muslims is their ability to continue the tradition of Muhammad in inventing any lie to the exclusion of all the evidence to the contrary, which is a hallmark of a cult belief system.

Reply to [First] #5 - First of all, we reject Muhammad was a prophet when even he believed he was possessed until Khadija stripped naked to assure him the unseen spirit tormenting him was Gabriel! So I'm not aware of the basis of your land claims other than the Islamic belief in world conquest and that is an abhorrent doctrine of mass murder. I didn't forget to mention her conversion given my point was clearly how much freer women were before Islam. You ignored every single point raised so I will reiterate that Muhammad's child bride told him directly Muslim women suffer more than any other women, he as made women equal to asses and dogs, and your prophet even said women are stupid and hellbound. The influence is so great that Bin Laden's Pashtun allies in Afghanistan have adopted homosexual practices viewing women as unclean. You don't mention that in Sahih Bukhari, Muslim men are permitted to lie with the help of two false witnesses to claim marriage to a woman and that claim is legitimate as a result under Islamic law. And please quit lying, the Sahih Hadiths make it clear Aisha was 6 when Muhammad married her and 9 when he had sex with her making her a very young child.

Reply to [Second] #5 - Osama Bin Laden was a terrorist responsible for many atrocities including the Septemeber 11, 2001 attack killing over 3,000 people. It was a great day for humanity when Seal Team 6 entered Pakistan, breached his compound, and put a bullet in his head and dispensing with the remains in the ocean although I would have preferred a thorough and public desecration of his remains. He exemplified the doctrine of Jihad warfare and terror of the Qu'ran while demonstrating a level of cowardice not unlike Muhammad hiding in a compound with his extensive collection of pornography. Abu Bakr al Baghdadi is a follower of Sunni Islam and like all your other assertions you are just making stuff up. I understand the Islamic aspiration for a caliphate but the weak rejection of ISIS you offer has no reasoning behind it. The million dollar question is on what basis are you rejecting ISIS with regard to Islamic teaching while you openly admit a desire for a caliphate? It makes no sense.

Reply to #6 - You lost the debate from the start and have refused to respond to my case or present your own case. I have faith that ultimately Islam will wither away or be destroyed for making war on the entire world. Your idea of peace is a perverted concept given your desire to see it rule over the world, which further begs the question of how Muslims are to live with Jews and Christians as brothers given your desire that everyone recite allah. It is either pure fantasy or deception.


Aiham forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Aiham 3 years ago
ISIS is not teaching Islamic laws stupid.
Posted by POPOO5560 3 years ago
lol david wood fans
Posted by Dr_Obvious 3 years ago
How much you wanna bet con forfeits?
Posted by cheyennebodie 3 years ago
I have never gone to a store and bought something made in a muslim nation.All I ever seen exported from them are oil and terrorism.
Posted by DavidMGold 3 years ago
It reminds me of the crossfire between Ben Affleck vs. Bill Maher & Sam Harris. I'd offer to debate all nine of them individually or they could all collaborate together. There's a correct position on this issue and wrong one.
Posted by TrustmeImlying 3 years ago
Yeah, I saw the opinion question and was curious if someone would take the challenge. They were quite adamant about you being wrong as well. But all I hear now are crickets...
Posted by DavidMGold 3 years ago
No, not one. There was an opinion question posted somewhat along the same line and even with 63% vs. 37% - and some arguments in the replies - I cannot get any of them to defend their position in a full debate.
Posted by TrustmeImlying 3 years ago
No takers, huh?
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