The Instigator
Icharus
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
rogue
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

The 11th Doctor is Better Than The 10th Doctor.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
rogue
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/2/2011 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 9,776 times Debate No: 14232
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (2)

 

Icharus

Pro

Here's how things will go down:

The CON of this debate will seek to prove that the Tenth Incarnation of the Doctor from the British television series "Doctor Who", played by David Tennant, is superior to the 11th incarnation, played by Matt Smith, whom I will be defending.

Superior is defined as "of higher performance". Performance pertains to writing, acting, characterization and the overall themes and motifs of the certain incarnation. It does NOT pertain to associate characters or even plot elements of the respective series'; for example, you may not argue in favor of 10 because you enjoy the Master, no matter how awesome he is.

Other characters and plot points MAY be used ONLY as examples of how the Doctor acts, if your argument lies within that standard.

We may not say that neither are the best Doctor and choose any of the other 9.

The only quality either of us can use of the head writers, Russel T. Davies or Steven Moffat, as reasons for liking an incarnation is his writing skill. This goes for the rest of the crew.

This will be non-formal. Sources are not necessarily needed as long as nothing is actually made up. Good luck to whoever accepts this.
rogue

Con

Thank you so much pro for creating this debate. I love Doctor Who and am a huge fan of David Tennant as the Doctor.

Well Pro obviously has the upper hand in that Steven Moffat is the head writer for his favorite doctor and Steven Moffat is undoubtably a better writer than Russel T. Davies.

Still, I think that it is the actor who creates the character most of all.

First off, I think that the tenth doctor shows much more depth in character. He is funny, witty, and smart on the outside but obviously very lonely and sad on the inside. He shows many sides. While in most episodes he strives to save anyone and always chooses mercy over hatred, when pushed too far he can do terrible things. Such as in episodes like THE RUNAWAY BRIDE and THE WATERS OF MARS. He is also able to show vulnerability in always being sad and angry when anyone or anything dies or has something terrible happen to them like in THE GIRL IN THE FIREPLACE when he cries for a girl he met that day. He also shows that is biggest vulnerability is the people of Earth, seeing as the genius Master is always wise enough to attack them because they are his weakness. The tenth Doctor also shows humility when even after he has saved worlds hundred of times still admires people who might look small compared to what he's accomplished. There are too many episodes where this happens to cite.

Perhaps the best example of how the tenth doctor is not only a deep character but a versatile one is in how he reacts with his companions. With Rose he subtly shows his love for her and his pain in never being able to show it while still outwardly putting on a brave face and being his usual quirky funny self. With Martha he shows his obliviousness to her love for him, while showing how hurt and guarded he is after losing Rose but still manages to in the end appreciate and love Martha even though he is not in love with her. With Donna he is finally able to relax because she feels equally not attracted to him as he is to her and is finally able to have a best friend type companion.

The tenth doctor also shows the greater humanity. This is shown in THE FAMILY OF BLOOD when he reveals that part of him does not want to be the Doctor because it is so lonely and because he bears such great burdens. He also shows humanity even though he is an alien by being able to break down sometimes. Such as in the last episode of THE END OF TIME. His humanity is greatly shown by the display of his faults. He has abandoned his friends more than once. Such as Sarah Jane and Jack Harkness. Also, in the episode MIDNIGHT he loses to his foe and has to get help from someone else showing he is not invincible.

Although I enjoy watching Matt Smith, I do not think he has shown as much depth in character, versatility, and humanity as David Tennant as the doctor. I look forward to my opponent's rebuttals and hopefully his own arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
Icharus

Pro

I was sure that somebody would be interested in this debate.

For clarification, Con and I both agree that Moffat is the better writer and offers better stories for the Doctor to partake. I also agree that the actor is what ultimately makes the character.

Over 3 series the Tenth Doctor has definitely shown very deep character development. However, I believe we must look toward what the Doctor, as a character should be - this will tie in to most of my other points as well.

The very first doctor, played by William Hartnell, was an enigmatic figure. We didn't know much about the character, and he had that sort of dual personality as many other Doctors. While he was knowledgeable and caring by the end of his run, he could also be ruthless and even abrasive towards his companions; a trait a few other Doctors would sport. Even if we know the Doctor's past, it should not stop the Doctor from retaining that "alien" feel.

The Tenth is indeed very dynamic, there's no denying that. Yes, it may make him more likable and more relatable, which is why I would possibly agree that he'd be the best "character", but that's another discussion. What I see is Tenth's "problem" is that this dynamic and all the human traits he possesses doesn't work toward his character. The best Doctor should be the one who achieves what, in my opinion, is the original purpose of the Doctor. While the human traits and his love for Rose and such make him a very, very interesting Doctor, it also removes that mysterious motif of him. He loses what I believe is one of the core characteristics a Doctor should have.

Moving on to Smith and his 11th Doctor, you think he doesn't have much depth in character development and versatility. Firstly, while 10 as had 4 series and more specials than you can count with one hand, 11 has only gone through one series and a (amazing) christmas special. It's unfair to say that he'd have more development than Tennant.

However, he does possess his own unique style of the Doctor. He's the youngest of the bunch, yet they way Smith plays it he always feels like he had a long history beyond his expression. CHRISTMAS CAROL plays on a lot of his sides. For most of it you see a very quirky, fast thinking Doctor, yet in many instances as his plan attempts to come together he seems much more in control than he lets on. PANDORICA and VICTORY OF THE DALEKS also depict a much more serious Eleven.

Tennant is great and he's a blast to watch, for sure. But in my opinion I look toward Matt Smith if I want the feel of something back before the musical score was really loud and the CGI was dominant. Where the enigma of the Doctor really drove people to like his character.
rogue

Con

Thanks for the agreement Pro, it seems you are quite a god Doctor Who fan is my opinion. And Yes, the Christmas special was fantastic. Another win for Steven Moffat.

"Yes, it may make him more likable and more relatable, which is why I would possibly agree that he'd be the best "character", but that's another discussion. What I see is Tenth's "problem" is that this dynamic and all the human traits he possesses doesn't work toward his character. The best Doctor should be the one who achieves what, in my opinion, is the original purpose of the Doctor. While the human traits and his love for Rose and such make him a very, very interesting Doctor, it also removes that mysterious motif of him. He loses what I believe is one of the core characteristics a Doctor should have."

I disagree. I think the David Tennant as the Doctor remains quite mysterious. He hints but never reveals so much about his past which is frustrating but good. Also, I don't see Matt Smith as being any more mysterious than David Tennant. David Tennant also often won't do certain things and when asked why he'll just say "I can't" which is also frustrating but tells us there is something he won't tell us which makes him mysterious.

You also say you think he should be more alien. The point of the Doctor is that he is an alien that is so human and has a weakness for them. He isn't supposed to be like the other aliens, he's supposed to be human. David Tennant's rants about technology we don't understand and random aliens is enough for me to feel he is alien. Not to mention his use of the screwdriver ;).

It also sounds like you have some kind of standard for the Doctors to be mysterious and alien enough and live up to the first Doctor. But the point of the Doctor and having all the different actors is so that his character changes. The important thing a Doctor must have is that he must be unique and interesting. His character also must grow in some ways throughout the show as all characters must. I think we both agree David Tennant does those things just fine. It is the point that each Doctor is different and it is fine if they aren't like the original.

"It's unfair to say that he'd have more development than Tennant." True. But I think David Tennant grew more as a character, was more versatile, and was a deeper character in his first season as the Doctor than Matt Smith has. The season finale of season two was heart-wrenching. David Tennant did that excellently. He lost his beloved and still was not able to tell her. Rose changed him so much throughout the season which they affirm in the season four finale. But, although in the storyline it was Rose, David Tennant had to show that which I think he did splendidly. While the season finale of season five was tense, there was not much progression or change in his character.

"yet they way Smith plays it he always feels like he had a long history beyond his expression." I disagree. I have always felt Matt Smith has a very young and naive feel to him. It is not bad, it is actually refreshing after the terrible things Russell T. Davies put David Tennant's Doctor through. I always feel he is very childish in a fun, goofy, interesting way. Although he still retains the knowledge of other Doctors, emotionally he seems very inexperienced compared to David Tennant's Doctor in my opinion. The point you made towards Matt Smith I would actually say belongs to David Tennant.
Debate Round No. 2
Icharus

Pro

David Tennant retains some of that mysteriousness, yes, but you were very familiar with him, the character. His humanness allowed him to be a bit too identifiable in my opinion. When he says "I can't", yes it adds a bit of mystery, but you've been following his character, and you could probably make some accurate assumptions for his motives, because he functions like a human.

The Doctor isn't just a very human alien. He's just an alien who's taken a very special liking toward Earth. The technobabble and screwdriver have been such staples, now it really comes down to a suspension of disbelief sort of thing. The thing with Eleven is that he delivers his dialogue so fast and sharply, so much so that you sorta felt that something "went wrong" during regeneration.

Moving on, I'm not saying that every Doctor has to be like First, but that no Doctor but Tennant had ever taken such a human approach on the guy. It was always that the Doctor's intelligence and knowledge of the human race prevented him from acting like one of them. He had a respect for them, yes, but most of the time you can sense that he looks upon them with a sort of novelty.

Yes, Tennant did grow a lot in his first season. However character development wasn't really the purpose of series 5. He didn't have any real love interest, no real big loss or collapse, it was just sort of to set him up. Also, you can't put all of the character development solely on Tennant. He gained the companion that has already been established with the 9th Doctor, so not ALL of the character development was in his series 2.

Yes, Matt Smith does have a naive, young sort of feel on to him. But you agree that it's a refreshing change of pace. I think it mixes things up a bit. He's fun and goofy but that doesn't stop him from being serious when he needs to be. BEAST BELOW and TIME OF ANGELS are perfect examples of that. At one point he even takes a jab at how he's getting old and isn't as sharp as he used to be. The duality of it is what I'm saying belongs to Matt Smith.
rogue

Con

"His humanness allowed him to be a bit too identifiable in my opinion." I don't think anyone can identify with the things the Doctor goes through. I think you are mistaking the realism of his character for over-simplicity in his character. "When he says "I can't", yes it adds a bit of mystery, but you've been following his character, and you could probably make some accurate assumptions for his motives, because he functions like a human." True, but I think that you don't need to have no idea why someone might do something to remain mysterious.

"The Doctor isn't just a very human alien. He's just an alien who's taken a very special liking toward Earth." I disagree. If the Doctor was just some strange alien and did not have a lot of human characteristics and did not function like some type of human, no one would want to watch the show. Because he cares and loves as humans do, but still has his unique alien qualities, he is interesting and compelling to watch. "The thing with Eleven is that he delivers his dialogue so fast and sharply, so much so that you sorta felt that something "went wrong" during regeneration." You are saying David Tennant doesn't do the fast, sharp talking thing? I can post a youtube video of him doing that if you like.

"but that no Doctor but Tennant had ever taken such a human approach on the guy." I think this is what makes him one of the best Doctors. When you watch the tenth Doctor you feel as if you are having an intimate relationship with him of some kind; as if you yourself have traveled with him and he loved you as a friend and you loved hi back that way. His honesty and his warmth make his performances very realistic and compelling and causes an intimacy with the audience unlike any Doctor before in my opinion. "It was always that the Doctor's intelligence and knowledge of the human race prevented him from acting like one of them." I think this kept him from having many negative human characteristics like arrogance, ignorance, etc. I think he is almost like the perfect human. He cares about everyone, he is intelligent, he is witty and funny, he always tries his hardest, and even though he makes mistakes he always learns from them. Maybe those "perfect" qualities make him less human because hardly anyone can achieve those things. "He had a respect for them, yes, but most of the time you can sense that he looks upon them with a sort of novelty." I disagree. I think he loves the human race more than other species because he likes and then embodies our immense emotional and intellectual capabilities. He also loves how every human is greatly different and still similar to one another. I don't think he views us as a "novelty" or he wouldn't come back to Earth all the time, spend so much time saving us personally, and keep having human companions.

"However character development wasn't really the purpose of series 5. He didn't have any real love interest, no real big loss or collapse, it was just sort of to set him up." I think this is a very weak argument. The purpose of the writer of a season is not to enact character development. It is the job of the actor to show exactly how and why the character develops because of its surroundings and happenings. There really was not much character development through all of season 5. The Doctor did not really change at all, nor did his relationship with Amy Pond progress in any way towards her, although her feelings for him did. "Also, you can't put all of the character development solely on Tennant. He gained the companion that has already been established with the 9th Doctor, so not ALL of the character development was in his series 2" This is untrue. When a Doctor regenerates, he becomes a completely different and new person. In the second season, Rose and the Doctor had to begin their relationship all over again because it was like they had never met. This made Rose very upset. So, every development in that season was David Tennant's doing.


Debate Round No. 3
Icharus

Pro

Icharus forfeited this round.
rogue

Con

My opponent has forfeited this round unfortunately. I will hope he will reply in the next round.
Debate Round No. 4
Icharus

Pro

Whoops, sorry about that.

I don't think anyone can identify with the things the Doctor goes through.


Well, a lot of 10th Doctor stories would beg to differ. Sure you can't exactly feel what he's going through but Tennant acts him in a way a human normally does, so it's a bit too easy to indentify what he's going through. With Smith, under that naive skin he has a
complex set of
things that go over your head, but it's focused on in just the right amount where you don't know what emotion it is exactly, but you know it's there.

If the Doctor was just some strange alien and did not have a lot of human characteristics and did not function like some type of human, no one would want to watch the show.

I'm not saying that he has to be totally alien, but when you have an alien that's too human, you really sort of lose the point of him being alien. The most interesting thing is how he interacts with his companions, who are the actual humans. Also, Tennant does do the talking thing but I don't think it's as overwhelminingly quick as Smith does it. Tennant has more of a charming fast talking thing.

When you watch the tenth Doctor you feel as if you are having an intimate relationship with him of some kind; as if you yourself have traveled with him and he loved you as a friend and you loved hi back that way. His honesty and his warmth make his performances very realistic and compelling and causes an intimacy with the audience unlike any Doctor before in my opinion.

I mostly agree with this. What it comes down to, though, is that I really don't want to feel that when I watch Doctor Who. That sounds like the sort of thing I'd watch a sitcom or a talk show for. Rather I'd watch more because I'd want to see what the Doctor does next. This was my original point; when he becomes an actual friend, you almost lose that respect for him, and that mystery that usually shrouds his character.

I think this kept him from having many negative human characteristics like arrogance, ignorance, etc. I think he is almost like the perfect human.
.. Maybe those "perfect" qualities make him less human because hardly anyone can achieve those things.

Even considering things like this, still, that difference is supposed to put a bit of a gap between the Doctor and a human. Not just physically but character wise.

He also loves how every human is greatly different and still similar to one another. I don't think he views us as a "novelty" or he wouldn't come back to Earth all the time, spend so much time saving us personally, and keep having human companions.


I always thought that in Doctor cases where he actually chooses his companions (instead of them being lugged onto him) chose them because he thought they were fun. Also, the Doctor has had some human enemies, too. What he likes is the idea of humanity. Over trillions of years, it pushes on and it forces itself to survive. But the "human is greatly different and still similar to one anoher" thing wouldn't be why.

When a Doctor regenerates, he becomes a completely different and new person. In the second season, Rose and the Doctor had to begin their relationship all over again


Untrue. When Ninth started, they were just companions. We go into the 10th Doctor's run, and right off the bat the love interest has been established. So the relationship isn't "all over again". I believe that throws the entire character development arguement out.

Forfeited rounds aside, I honestly did not expect such a strong argument toward Tennant. I thank the CON for the debate.

rogue

Con

"Well, a lot of 10th Doctor stories would beg to differ. Sure you can't exactly feel what he's going through but Tennant acts him in a way a human normally does, so it's a bit too easy to indentify what he's going through. With Smith, under that naive skin he has a complex set of things that go over your head, but it's focused on in just the right amount where you don't know what emotion it is exactly, but you know it's there."

In the stories sure you can guess what he is feeling but you can't really relate. I don't think anyone can understand being the last of their kind and wanting your greatest enemy to live because he is the only one of your kind left other than you. (End of season three) Or having to decide to kill an entire city of thousands to save the world. (Fires of Pompei) Or having to become the loneliest creature in the galaxy and give up a chance to have a life with a wife and kids. (Family of Blood) Or never being able to see your beloved ever again and it is your fault. (Doomsday). It's hard for me to argue from the point of view of a normal viewer. I am a trained actress and so when you say "too easy to identify with him", there is no such thing, if you move the audience, you have done your job as an actor. In the acting world, not knowing what emotion the actor is portraying, especially the way you phrased how you think Smith acts, is very bad. The way you phrased his acting sounds like the audience can tell the actor is trying but the actor is not communicating and connecting well enough with the audience for them to understand what is going on with him. So, at least the way you phrased it, you have conceded Tennant to be the better actor. Whether that means he is a better Doctor now I think comes down to our personal opinions. You want him to not be so emotional and human and I want to be inspired and moved by him.

"I'm not saying that he has to be totally alien, but when you have an alien that's too human, you really sort of lose the point of him being alien. The most interesting thing is how he interacts with his companions, who are the actual humans. Also, Tennant does do the talking thing but I don't think it's as overwhelminingly quick as Smith does it. Tennant has more of a charming fast talking thing."

I don't feel Smith is more alien than Tennant. But I guess that is just my opinion. I think you are confusing Tennant being very emotional with being too human. Honestly, in his situations, if he had acted any other way people would have been bothered at his coldness. Personally I think both of their fast talking in charming lol.

"I mostly agree with this. What it comes down to, though, is that I really don't want to feel that when I watch Doctor Who. That sounds like the sort of thing I'd watch a sitcom or a talk show for. Rather I'd watch more because I'd want to see what the Doctor does next. This was my original point; when he becomes an actual friend, you almost lose that respect for him, and that mystery that usually shrouds his character."

I don't think having an intimate relationship with him makes you not guess what he is going to do next. I always feel that way because in the situations he's in, I think we can both agree neither of us would know what to do lol. Also, even though I feel like I have an intimate relationship with him, I don't feel like he's a normal friend. Like, I he's not like an average friend you can watch football with. I still look up to him and feel he's mysterious. I mean we don't even know his real name! And barely anything about his past. He is a friend, but still mysterious and most importantly inspiring. You still he has a higher understanding and intellect than you and thankfully doesn't look down on you for it lol. I think this keeps the respect you should have for him and his mysteriousness.

I always thought that in Doctor cases where he actually chooses his companions (instead of them being lugged onto him) chose them because he thought they were fun. Also, the Doctor has had some human enemies, too. What he likes is the idea of humanity. Over trillions of years, it pushes on and it forces itself to survive. But the "human is greatly different and still similar to one anoher" thing wouldn't be why.

The Doctor never takes a companion if he doesn't want them. I disagree with saying he takes them because they are fun. I think the Doctor takes a companion because he likes their character. He thinks they are wonderful people and wants to spend time with them. He doesn't pick companions to amuse him, he takes them because he is lonely and needs good companionship. I don't think the Doctor just likes that humans are determined to survive because so many other species do that as well, like the Daleks who he hates. I definitely think he likes the humanity and uniqueness of every human.

"
Untrue. When Ninth started, they were just companions. We go into the 10th Doctor's run, and right off the bat the love interest has been established. So the relationship isn't "all over again". I believe that throws the entire character development arguement out."

False. There was not an immediate love connection. Rose was actually very upset that he turned into another person because she'd have to start all over again. I definitely remember that from the first episode of the second season.

" Forfeited rounds aside, I honestly did not expect such a strong argument toward Tennant. I thank the CON for the debate."

Thank you ^_^. I think this is because you probably couldn't find a more David Tennant and Doctor Who loving person on all of Debate.org. I mean I can honestly say I've watched every episode with David Tennant at least 3 times. Some of them waaaaaaaaay more than that. XD I thank Pro so much creating this debate I've had so much fun and I greatly respect him and understand his opinion.



Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by BillBonJovi 6 years ago
BillBonJovi
ever since matt smith came into dr who the series just went downhill I think. I think Con has this one in the bag.
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Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
IcharusrogueTied
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Vote Placed by BillBonJovi 6 years ago
BillBonJovi
IcharusrogueTied
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