The 1992 Dream Team would defeat the 2012 Team USA.
Debate Rounds (5)
1. You must be for Team USA winning the game.
2. This is a one game match, not a seven game series.
3. All players are at the talent levels that they were in the respective years that the teams came into existence; the players are not necessarily in their primes.
I believe that the Dream Team from 1992 would defeat the Team USA from 2012 for several reasons.
1. Team USA cannot stop Michael Jordan no matter who guards him.
2. Kobe and LeBron will be effectively shut down.
3. The Dream Team will be able to outrebound Team USA.
4. The Dream Team are much better defenders than Team USA.
5. The Dream Team has much more firepower in their offense than Team USA does.
6. I understand that this could be a big 3 match between Magic, MJ, Bird, and Kobe, LeBron, and KD, but excluding those big 3's, the Dream Team has a lot more depth than Team USA does.
With these reasons and many more, the Dream Team will effectively defeat Team USA.
2. Now who would lock Kobe and Lebron up? Kobe has already proven he can score on Jordan, and Lebron was and still is a freak of nature. If he wants to get to the rim, he won't have much difficulty unless he is getting fouled or help side defense comes over. And in that case, Lebron would dish the ball out with his superb passing to another efficient offensive scorer such as Kevin Love or Durant for the 3.
3. Yes, The Dream Team would likely outbound 2012 USA Team, however guys like Tyson in 2012 were an absolute force on the boards, so it's nothing to joke about. And Lebron would compete with Barkley for boards easily as I believe 2012 Lebron is just as strong as Dream Team Barkley. It'd be tough, but with the effective offensive scorers 2012 has, they wouldn't have much need for offensive boards.
4. How are the Dream Team better defenders? If we are playing by today's rules, 2012 are easily better defenders. Like I said earlier, Andre, Lebron, Chris Paul, Westbrook, Tyson, and Kevin Durant would have no extraordinary issues guarding anyone aside from MJ.
5. How does the Dream Team have more offensive firepower when the 2012 Team averaged more points with individual players? Very slight numbers, but still a fact is a fact. So you're wrong here.
6. So Team 2012 has no depth? Only KD, Lebron, and Kobe? Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Westbrook were all killing the 1 position that year. Harden began becoming an outstanding scorer, Iggy would do the dirty work, and still be an efficient scorer, Melo was killing it offensively when he came to New York, and Kevin Love was doing his thing.
The 2012 Team has way too many weapons offensively that the Dream Team would know how to ever guard. Yet they are still great wing defenders and can protect the paint.
2. I will give you the fact that it is incredibly difficult to effectively shut down Kobe and LeBron, but with MJ playing tough D on Kobe and Larry Bird (who is a very underrated defender) will be able to slow down LeBron. Now, even though LeBron James would probably try to blow by Bird and get to the rim as quickly as possible, what is he going to do when he comes up to seven foot tall Patrick Ewing, or seven foot one David Robinson, both of whom are pretty good shot blockers, especially Ewing. I'll give you the fact that LeBron is a great passer, and while Durant and Love are good three point shooters, they still cannot compare to the outside shooting of the Dream Team. (mentioned in the first argument)
3. While Chandler may get the occasional rebound, let me remind you again that he is going up against seven footers out of Patrick Ewing and David Robinson. LeBron James may go in there to help out Chandler, but Larry Bird, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, and David Robinson all average more rebounds than LeBron James and Tyson Chandler. Rebounding easily goes to the Dream Team.
4. Three-point shooting arguments extended. No issues guarding Larry Bird? Or big David Robinson? Tell me what they are going to do against John Stockton and Karl Malone's pick and roll offense. Or how about the way that Scottie Pippen can act as point guard, or a forward, and that Magic Johnson and Larry Bird are great teammates in the sense that they can open up shots for other players. As for Tyson Chandler's defense, he will be able to slow down the Dream Team, but I can't picture him completely stopping Patrick Ewing or David Robinson. Also, because of the Dream Team's outside shooting abilities, they may not necessarily need to drive to the rim. And besides, the only player that Tyson Chandler would be able to block is Clyde Drexler when he drives in. (Because he probably won't be able to stop Michael Jordan) And even then, Drexler may resort to his outside shot.
5. Here are a few facts to change the slight. Scottie Pippen was teammates with Michael Jordan so in his entire career with the Bulls (excluding 1994) Pippen did not have to worry about being the main scorer on his team. I'm not going to use the argument that Christian Laettner's stats shouldn't count, but did you know that he has a higher PPG average than Tyson Chandler? Another thing; every member of the Dream Team has gone through their decline and have retired. Except for Kobe Bryant, none of the members of Team USA have declined or retired yet. Kevin Durant, LeBron James, and Carmelo Anthony are averaging amazing numbers right now, but I guarantee you that will change as they get older. The Dream Team will then have the edge over Team USA in scoring.
6. Other than Kobe, LeBron, and KD, who else on that roster is going to be a first ballot hall of famer? Chris Paul possibly; Russell Westbrook maybe. My point is none of the other players are first ballot hall of fame caliber material. Kevin Love and James Harden are having great careers, but compare that to the 11 hall of famers on the Dream Team.
Tyson Chandler might be able to slow down some parts of the Dream Team's offense, but he can't stop every member of the team. Also, most of the starters for the Dream Team would be able to win their matchups offensively and defensively over the starters of Team USA. Magic over CP3, MJ over Kobe, Larry Legend over LeBron, and Ewing over Chandler.
Dream team are better shooters? Well let's see!
(1991-1992 3's Made) Scottie Pippen - 16. Chris Mullin - 64. John Stockton - 83.
(2011- 2012 3's Made) Kevin Durant - 133, Lebron 54. (Grouped together since they are likely matchup for scottie) Russell Westbrook - 62 (In 66 games played). Chris Paul - 79.
So with all the counter matches, I have proven that 2012 Team guards were better shooters or just as good in 2012 than Dream Team wings were in 1992 from outside.
Chris Paul is one of the most elite guard defenders ever in the Nba. He is currently just shy of 1800 steals and that year had 152. So Johnson's height would be a disadvantage on the wing as CP3 would easily strip him. Regardless though CP3 would not be guarding him. LeBron likely would.
2. No way Larry can stop Lebron. Like I said Lebron is a FREAK of NATURE. He will bully Larry like he has done with many players this playoffs, and one's before. If help comes he would simply dish the ball to one of the great shooters I've listed above (Oh and I forgot about James Harden). Plus do you really think Lebron would falter at the sight of a seven foot shot blocker? Ummm, does "NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE" ring a bell? KG is damn near 7ft and Lebron if having an open lane will gladly challenge any 7 footer. I can find more examples if you'd like. To your Durant and Love comment (Read first argument, they aren't the only wing threats)
3. Larry Bird, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, and David Robinson clearly wouldn't all be in the game at one. At most, they would have two elite rebounders in at once. For the sake of the argument let's say Barkley and Ewing. Chandler could easily battle it out with Ewing, and Lebron or Iggy would box out Barkley. It'd make absolutely no sense for them to have that many elite rebounders in the game at once. If they did, their offensive efficiency would drop dramatically giving 2012 the advantage yet again.
4. I already explained how elite the defenders are. Screen and roll is routine in modern NBA and Chandler (DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR) would have no problem guarding Stockton on the wing for a short time. If not, they will do his signature trap and rotate defenders over to Malone, effectively trapping Stockton with no where to go but launching up a pass that would likely be picked off, or turning it over from a steal with CP3 and Chandler trapping him. Chandler's length would make it extremely hard for Stockton to get his pass over as he is only 6'1. Chandler could stop anyone in the paint and if going straight up would make the shot incredibly difficult for Jordan. Stop watching highlights, Jordan driving has failed plenty of times against bigs.
5. What you're telling me here is irrelevant. We are comparing 2012's roster to 1992's. Whether they were declining or not is meaningless. You telling me this makes it sound like "Well they're older, so if 2012 won it's because they're younger." Like I said, it doesn't matter. It's 2012 vs 1992. Plus Jordan would go on to win 4 more championships from this point so yeah.
6. They still have many years to come. The future is unknown so this argument is unknown. You said yourself they were on the decline. Players in 2012 are just now in the middle or in Lebron and Carmelo's case the decline. Even so, most of these guys have a ton of time to make something happen. Even though this isn't a fair argument let me elaborate. Kevin Love could possibly win a ring this year. Melo is defiantly a Hall of Fame bound. Chris Paul and Westbrook will be. Anthony Davis, and with Andre's current situation he is likely HOF bound for helping break the Bulls record, getting finals MVP and first ring, scored 15000+ points. So there are many contenders. Other guys have had issues with either there team or injuries so their chances are lowered. But let's not forget how Chandler helped the Mavericks destroy the Heat in the finals averaging 10 points shooting 65% and 9 boards that season.
2012 are way more athletic, and stronger. Plus have way more tools on the wing defensively and offensively. Variety is key.
You are absolutely correct with the amount of 3 pointers made. But look at the percentage:
Stockton 41%, Mullin 39%
Durant 38%, Paul 37%, James 36%, Westbrook 31%
2. I guess its time to introduce the mental aspect of basketball. LeBron James is a freak of nature, but at that time he was very weak minded. And even if you say he isn't, Larry Bird was such a great trash talker that he would rip LeBron up one side and down the other and ruin him psychologically. If LeBron decides to kick it out to an outside shooter, do you really think that they will be able to get the shot off against Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, or John Stockton, who need I remind you, has the most steals in NBA history? The three also have a combined total of 24 All Defensive Teams appearances.
3. I didn't say that they were all going into the game at once. That would be pretty stupid. The point I made on that statement was the depth that the Dream Team has in rebounding. LeBron or Iggy against Barkley? I know that they have the height advantage over him, but Barkley was much rougher than both of them. They don't call him the Round Mound of Rebound for nothing.
4. If Chandler goes outside to guard Stockton, then all Stockton has to do is toss it inside to Ewing, Robinson, Malone, or Barkley, or even Bird (whoever is inside at the time). With Chandler out of the way, the Dream Team will have two easy points on the board in a few seconds. About your highlight comments: stop watching highlights of LeBron James dunking on 7 footers or Tyson Chandler stuffing players. They do mess up a lot of times as well. It seems like you favor Tyson Chandler defensively. And while he is an incredible player, may I remind you that there is only one of him and one Ewing, Barkley, Bird, Magic, and one Michael Jordan. The rest of Team USA are ok defenders, but they won't be able to effectively stop the rest of the Dream Team. And again, Tyson Chandler can't play all 48 minutes of the game. When he sits out, the Dream Team will be able to score at will.
5. You are right. I apologize for the irrelevant argument. However, the Dream Team were better scorers than Team USA. The Dream Team averaged 117.3 PPG, while Team USA averaged 115.0 PPG. A small difference, but a difference nonetheless.
6. There are many different opinions on who is going to be a hall of famer, but can you guarantee that all 12 members of Team USA are going to be in the hall of fame.
Team USA may be more athletic, but you cannot deny the tools that the Dream Team has. Michael Jordan; no explanation necessary. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird are incredible at opening up shots for other players. Larry Bird can shoot incredibly well. The Dream Team can outrebound and outshoot Team USA and they have more depth. For these reasons, I urge you to vote pro.
MattBel forfeited this round.
All arguments extended.
I would like to make a few other points.
1. The Dream Team defeated other teams by an average of 43.8 points, while Team USA won by an average of 32.1 points.
2. For Tyson Chandler the only decent seven footers he faced in 2012 were Pau Gasol, Roy Hibbert, Chris Kaman, Andrew Bogut, and Andrew Bynum. Except for Gasol, none of the others are that good. Or at least Ewing and Robinson good.
3. James, Bryant, Durant, Paul, and Anthony are good, but compare that to Michael Jordan, the passing of Magic Johnson, the shooting of Larry Bird, the blocking of Patrick Ewing, the rebounding of Charles Barkley, the 3-pt. shooting of Chris Mullin, the versatility of Scottie Pippen, the leader in steals of John Stockton, the second chance effort by Karl Malone, the dominance of David Robinson, and Christian Laettner, who is one of the best college players of all time.
1. His greatest passes would mean nothing against a more athletic 2012 team compared to those they played in 1992. Players today are stronger, faster, and overall more athletic today than ever before. Larry is not getting off anything special in terms of passes when you have guys like Andre Iguodala and Chris Paul on the court. This is team USA, not the Miami Heat. Coach K and Erik Spoelstra did not play LeBron similarly, especially with the different tools he had. Like I said, LeBron would be way too strong combined with his length and speed for Larry to give him buckets. Name me a player back then with the physical attributes of LeBron or Andre that have been lit up on the perimeter by Larry. Larry hasn't experienced defense like that.
With more three pointers attempted, it's only natural the percentage would be lower. And even with that the numbers aren't even significantly different. 35% - 40% isn't bad. In the NBA today that's good. Yes accuracy matters, but you need to give them more leniency when they on avg are taking more threes. It's like someone going 1/1 and someone going 8/10. The 1/1 shooter has better percentage but the 8/10 clearly is more effective.
2. Yes, you're right. LeBron was not as dominant minded as he is today, however he was the hottest athlete in the Country during this time. He came straight off of an NBA championship. I think you're thinking of 2010-2011 LeBron that chocked in the finals. LeBron came back the next year with a killer instinct opening the season with 37pts 10rebs, and 6ast along with 2 steals. This showed he was hungry, and he proved he was by destroying the competition that year by winning a championship with Finals MVP. He would not be phased. Need I remind you he played against one of the best celtics teams ever that year in the ECF? Against the Truth, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo, and Garnett. Down 3-2, LeBron dropped 45pts, with 15 rebounds. Garnett is one of the biggest trash talkers in the history of the league, even Paul Pierce talked trash. But this didn't stop LeBron from annihilating. So, no, Larry would not break LeBron down physiologically. It'd only make him perform better. LeBron is a grown man, not some high school or college baller.
3. Okay. Then if one or two of them are in at a time, they are still just on par with dream team. And Iggy's scrappiness would be able to mend with Barkley. LeBron could unleash his beast as well against him. LeBron can easily "become" a PF when against Barkley. Plus, you said it yourself. They have height over him, yet are just as strong.
4. You're completely taking out of account what I said about a trap defense. Stockton at 6'1 cannot get the ball over two defenders, while one would be 7ft, and the other 6'0 - 6'3. If he manages to get a pass in that'll be easily intercepted. So Dream Team's Malone and Stockton pick and roll would be debunked pretty quickly after a turnover or two.
Okay, you're making a statement that I'm only watching highlights. LeBron in 2012 posterized or cleared the lanes routinely that year. If not, he went to the line for two, and that's not messing up. He was the MVP after all at the time. But since you're making such a broad statement can you give me a few examples of "messing up a lot of times as well"? Again, Chandler was Defensive Player of The Year for a reason. You said he messed up a lot too, any examples?
Only one of Tyson huh...? So are you forgetting this team had Anthony Davis, Kevin Love, and were supposed to have Griffin? Yeah Davis was very young, but had already showed he would be a force to be reckoned with. While Tyson took a break, he could guard any big. It'd be tough for him, but at 6'10, he would not get lit up. Kevin Love, while not the most athletic is another big you're neglecting to look at. Tyson isn't the only big. And Kevin is strong, so could hold his own, especially if Tyson is in guarding Dream Team's best big.
5. A layup more. Wow. Team USA joked around with majority of their opponents anyways. If they honestly tried in many of their games and weren't looking to put a show on, they'd avg more no doubt.
6. Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, Kobe, Westbrook, Iguodala are guaranteed. Aside from Deron Williams, James Harden and Chandler which are very likely, but not guaranteed, it's too early to say for the others. But if someone like Bill Bradley could do it, I'm sure everyone here has a decent shot. But when all is said and done, remember what I said... In about 20 something years.
I'm not taking away from the Dream Team's tools at all. I'm just saying Team 2012 has everything to counter them and more. Skilled, stronger, faster, more variety offensively, future hall of famers. How can the Dream Team lockup Chris Paul or Westbrook, LeBron, Kobe, Durant, and Chandler all in the game at once??? Too many weapons. Jordan would be their main tool to score, but Team USA doesn't need one offensive weapon. Their variety is unmatched. They have multiple guys that can score and do other things. Most of Dream Team specialize in one thing which leads to a lack luster offense against a great defensive team.
1. Like I said, Team 2012 just from a speculative standpoint did not appear to be taking them as serious as the Dream Team were. Most games looked like an All Star game.
2. How does this determine how he'd play against Dream Team bigs? Don't sleep on Tyson's experience.
3. You just said James, Bryant, Durant, and Paul are "good". No sir, they are all great, hell even amazing players. Let me contrast everything you said. But compare that to Kobe or Prime LeBron, the passing of Chris Paul and LeBron, the shooting of Westbrook, and Kevin Durant, the blocking and rim protecting of Tyson Chandler and a blossoming Anthony Davis, the rebounding of any forward on that team, the 3pt shooting of Kevin Love and Harden, Versatility of Andre and LeBron, the future top 5 leader in steals Chris Paul and hell, even Westbrook (perhaps top 10), one of the shiftiest PGs in the game at the time Deron Williams, the leadership and killer instinct of Kobe, and Anthony Davis THE best college player at the time.
BronsonC forfeited this round.
But just to add something. I think you're being biased because you eventually knew what these players became. For example, you used the fact that they are mostly HOF against 2012 team. But how is that fair when their careers aren't over yet? And you keep asking me about their futures. Truth is no one knows. So you should base it completely over that year and that year alone.
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