The Instigator
16kadams
Pro (for)
Tied
8 Points
The Contender
Lord_Logic
Con (against)
Tied
8 Points

The AK-47 is better than the AR-15

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/16/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 8,779 times Debate No: 19917
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (18)
Votes (4)

 

16kadams

Pro

first round acceptance. I think the AR is better, but would like to do devils advocate.
Lord_Logic

Con

I accept. AR-15 vs. AK-47. Good luck, Pro!
Debate Round No. 1
16kadams

Pro

I am arguing that the AK-47 is a better weapon.

C1: Cost

You can always get expensive AK's, but on average a AK-47 is much cheaper to buy and build.
AK47($361): http://www.budsgunshop.com......
AR-15 $916: http://www.budsgunshop.com......
AK47($339): http://www.impactguns.com......
AR15 ($679): http://www.impactguns.com......

So the AK-47 is half the price of an AR, and in the other example 1/3. So looking for a cheap assault weapon? Get an AK-47.

C2: Simple

It is a very simple gun to use. I have an AR, but I have seen AK-47's, and the AK is much more simple:

Step to unload AK:

Flick mag out, insert a new one, rack the bolt.

Step to unload AR:

Drop out mag, chamber check, mag check, (although those are optional one does it to prevent the common AR jams), Insert new mag, close bolt, Check bolt becaus AR's sometimes dont catch the bullet.


So the AK is much more simple because in the AR you probably need to do those steps to prevent jams. (they do it a lot).

C3: Reliability

As you know the AK is very reliable, thats a fact, and the AR is not. This is an stablished fact, the AK is more reliable than the AR-15 platform guns.

As you know we are debateing the AR, but the M-16 is the same thing other than the fact that the AR is semi-auto:

It was in Vietnam, Kahaner tells us, that the AK really earned its stripes. In jungle skirmishes, whoever pumped out the most rounds in the shortest amount of time won. America countered with its own automatic, the space-age-sleek M-16. But for years that rifle was reputed to have problems. One story, plucked by Kahaner from the Vietnam memoir of Colonel David Hackworth, illustrates the issues. Hackworth came across an accidentally exposed Viet Cong gravesite, yanked out a mud-caked AK, pulled back the bolt, and fired off thirty rounds as if the gun had just been cleaned. "This was the kind of weapon our solders needed and deserved, not the M-16 that had to be hospital cleaned or it would jam," wrote Hackworth. [1]

So they say it would jam

C4: populariy

Since that time, around 100 million AKs have been produced. The Soviets chose not to assert patent claims or charge licensing fees, allowing "wholesale production" of the weapon in countries from Bulgaria and Poland to China. [1]

The AK has become the firearm of choice for at least 50 standing armies and uncounted ragtag outfits, from insurgents and terrorists to drug dealers and street gangs. [1]

Yeah a gun that is that popular can't be bad.

C5: Size

AK=870 mm (34 in) fixed wooden stock

http://en.wikipedia.org...

AR= barrel: 24 in, body: 20 in

I dont have a source for this, but I measured my AR outside.

So the size lets the AK manuvre easier inside tight spaces better than the AR-15. So in CQB, the AK has an edge.

C6: rate of fire

The AR-15 is a semi-automatic gun. Don't argue otherwise because an automatic one is called an M-16. Their similar in size and such, but dont relate them to eahother in a ROF segment. (rate of fire-ROF).

AK-47= 600 rounds/min

So by definiton the AK has a higher ROFbecause it's automatic. And I doubt a person could pull the AR trigger 600 times every 60 seconds. (ten times every second). SO AK has another advantage.
.http://en.wikipedia.org...

C7: Range

This is a myht pople face with the AK-47. THe AR and the AK have similar effective ranges: 400 metres (AK), 400–600 m (AR). SO even though the AR can shoot 200m farther, a .223 or 5.56 nato round loses its power at about 400, source: experience.

C8: Stopping power.

AK rounds: 7.62 by 39 mm http://en.wikipedia.org...
AR round: .223 or 5.56 nato http://en.wikipedia.org...

The AR round is much smaller than the AK-47's. So the AK-47 round by definition has more stopping power. This argument is fact. No one an argue against that, the AK has more stopping power. So another advantage.


I await your response :)





http://www.businessweek.com... [1]

Lord_Logic

Con

Well, I am arguing that the AR-15 is a better weapon to the AK-47.

CA==>C1

When going to {1} and {2}, I did not see any costs of the AK-47. I believe you mean by {3}. Though the AK-7 is $600 and the AR-15 is $750, the AR-15 has some better accuracy and most of what you would need. Thus, the AR-15 is better even though the AK-47 is cheaper. It's like saying buying quantity or quality. What's better: a machine gun that shoots 90 degrees to your target {4} that costs $10 or a $100 dollar gun that just shoots 1 degree off of what you aim at. Therefore, the AR-15 is better even if the AK-47 is cheaper. The AK-47 is cheap but not as well against the AR-15.

CA2==>C2

{2} stated: "Safety/Selector switch is a bit awkward requiring the user to break their grip on the rifle, cheek weld is virtually non existent" for the AK-47. "Excellent cheek weld, safety/selector switch is easily manipulated without losing sight picture" for the AR-15. Therefore, the AK-47 is not a simple gun to use. AR-15 and the AK-47 is about the same. They are both semi-simple guns. Because of the uncomfortable AK-47, the AR-15 and the AK-47 are both about the same.

"Remove the magazine by pressing the magazine catch (figure 15) toward the magazine; then swing the magazine forward and out of the receiver. Pull the operating handle fully to the rear, inspect the chamber and receiver. If no cartridge is present, release the operating handle and pull the trigger" is how you would unload a AK-47.

Vs.

"Rotate the gun 90 degrees if you want safe unloading. Depress the magazine release and allow the magazine to fall free of the weapon," states {5}. This is how you unload an AR-15. See how simple it is. Done in a couple seconds!

Therefore, unloading the AR-15 and the AK-47 are very similar. Both are not better than the other in simplicity.

CA3==>C3

True that the AR is a little less reliable. Even though the AR-15 may fail due to sand, barely any army member is stupid enough to drop their gun in the sand, mud, dirt, whatever. Therefore, the reliability of the AK-47 does not matter for shooting issues. {3}

CA4==> C4

"Argentina, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Bolivia, Botswana, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Brazil, Brunei, Burma, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Congo, Costa Rica, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Egypt, East Timor, Estonia, Fiji, France, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Haiti, Honduras, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq ,Ireland, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Jamaica, Kuwait, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Maldives, Malaysia, Mexico, Morocco, Nepal, New Zealand, Norway, Laos, Nigeria, Netherlands, Oman,Pakistan, Panama, Philippines, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Vietnam and Venezuela" {6}. These are the countries that use the AR-15. At least 76 countries use the AR-15, not including other groups.

Yeah, a gun that popular can't be bad. (Stolen line from 16kadams)

CA5==> C5

Though the AK-47 is smaller, the AR-15 is lighter than the AK-47 and thus allows soldiers to maneuver with ease. The AK-47 is more heavier and thus slows down soldiers. Slowing down means an increase of the chance of getting hit by bullets when you're in the front line while running away. {3}. AR-15 weighs 7.8 lbs while the AK-47 weighs 9.5 lbs.

CA6==> C6

A M-16 is the American version of the AR-15. Thus, it can be concluded that the M-16 is a version of the AR-15, making them the same thing. The M-16 shoots at 800 rounds per minute, making it better than the AK-47. Since the M-16 is the adapted AR-15, it makes them the same thing. {3}

CA7==> C7 and C8

I guess we both agree with each other. Let's wipe these two contentions out, can we? You agree that the range of the AR-15 is superior, and the AK-47 has more stopping power. The AR-15 truly has more range than the AK-47. {3}. The AK-47 only shoots 400 yards. The AR-15 shoots 600 yards.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, on to my contentions:

Con C1 Accuracy and Range

The AR-15 beats the AK-47 at point-blank death and long-range death. The AR-15 {3} hits a target with more energy at 400 yards than the AK-47. The AK-47 is only best at short range and point-blank while the AR-15 shoots at both long and short range with deadly accuracy. Because the accuracy of the AR-15 is higher than the AK-47, the AR-15 could be considered as a "sniper" to the AK-47. Meaning, in a battle, the AR-15 would win because of the accuracy and range. If you want the accurate, long range deadly gun, choose the AR-15.

Con C2 Varieties

The AR-15 is like a group of guns. There are many shapes and sizes of the AR-15, ranging from the Colt pistol (AR-15) to the M-16. Since the AK-47 has less varieties, the AR-15 is better because there is a bigger variety of guns.

Con C3 Scopes

The AR-15 provides easy scope installations while the AK-47 is hard to install a scope. Thus, the AR-15 is very simple to add scopes than the AK-47. Therefore, the AR-15 is better. {3} and {9}.

Con C4 Loudness

The AK-47 is louder than the AR-15 when shot. This, in a war, will easily let enemies know in what direction you are. The AR-15 is more silent, therefore giving the AR-15 an edge.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I await your response... Have a nice day everyone!

{1} http://www.budsgunshop.com...
{2} http://www.impactguns.com...
{3} http://cheaperthandirt.com...
{4} http://en.wikipedia.org...
{5} http://aggdefsol.com...
{6} http://www.thefirearmblog.com...
{7} http://en.wikipedia.org...
{8} http://en.wikipedia.org...
{9} http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
16kadams

Pro

Cost:

It is a fact that the AK is cheaper, and you know it, you dont even refute it, but you say the accuracy is worse on an AK:

As you know most gun fights happen within 100 yards, and that they last an average of 3 seconds. A 7.62 by 39mm cartrige (AK round) is = are effective accuracy wise out to 150 yards. (Front sight firearms institute lecture on best rife rounds).

So your point is more refutable than you thought.

Simplicity:

You claim it even, so be it. But realoding in a warzone is critical.

"True that the AR is a little less reliable. Even though the AR-15 may fail due to sand, barely any army member is stupid enough to drop their gun in the sand, mud, dirt, whatever. Therefore, the reliability of the AK-47 does not matter for shooting issues."

False. I own an AR, it rams every 100 rounds if it is not oiled or extremely clean. I will elaborate later. source for this: my 2 AR's.

"Yeah, a gun that popular can't be bad."

the Ak 47 is still the most popular assault weapon. 100 million built. (see above sources)

"Though the AK-47 is smaller, the AR-15 is lighter than the AK-47 and thus allows soldiers to maneuver with ease."

When yout in a trench or in a tight halway would you rather have smaller gun, or a lighter one? In small spaces ou wouldnt be able to turn, or other tactical moves. So sure weight helps, but in tight spaces an AK is superior because you get more space what with an AR.

"A M-16 is the American version of the AR-15. Thus, it can be concluded that the M-16 is a version of the AR-15, making them the same thing. The M-16 shoots at 800 rounds per minute, making it better than the AK-47. Since the M-16 is the adapted AR-15, it makes them the same thing. "

*facepalm*. The AR Is the same as the M16, exept the lower receiver. The lower receiver decides the auto or the semi-auto type fire on these guns. If you put an M16 it is auto, if you put the AR its semi auto, and we are arguing the AR, so your point is irelavant. An automatic=M-16, semi auto= AR. Source: my AR's, frontsight lecture notes.

"I guess we both agree with each other. Let's wipe these two contentions out, can we? You agree that the range of the AR-15 is superior, and the AK-47 has more stopping power. The AR-15 truly has more range than the AK-47."

Well since my round can go the average range of a gun fight than the range argument is irrelavant for the most part. Also he AK has the power to kill better, thats a fact, and is still a valid point. Also if you read the aricle on the AK it has 800m sight adjustments, but it's accuracy depends on the country of origin by that point. A well made american AK would do well, a Chinese one probably not. Since I have made no country of origin for my gun that is a depends situation.

"The AR-15 beats the AK-47 at point-blank death and long-range death. The AR-15 {3} hits a target with more energy at 400 yards than the AK-47. "

Well in whatgun fight do you fight at 400 yards? Also I have sht at 400 yards, the AR hits harder, bit its hard to do because you have to compensate more due to the range. (aim higher). So why would you be shooting at 400 yards unless you where trying to semi-snipe, wait AR's have iron sights usaualy...so it would be hard to hit your target. Once again I have shot at 400 yards, fun, but hard. And the frontsight course teaches you better than 99% of military personell (their claim).

"Varieties"

So having a variety is an advantage? There are varietes for the Ak too. I have seen AK's in many different shapes, qualities, colors, and are owned by many people. ( source: Marine corps neighbor). Also the galil, is an AK variant. So the AK varies to a certian extent as well. http://world.guns.ru...

There are so many different variations of "AK-47s" out there these days, it would cost me a fortune and a lot of time, to obtain samples of 'em all to test and evaluation. http://www.survivalblog.com...

"Scopes"

In a city/urban gunfight (which is what assault weapons are used for) you wouldn't need a scope. At 100 yards your fine without one.

"Loudness"

This is only useful when trying to sneak up on people, and even in war this is rare for a normal soldier. (special forces job). Having a louder also can be useful ex:

Your on patrol, walking, you see an enemy, you pop a cap in him, and the camp hears you more clearly die to the fact thaycan actually hear that there is a problem. If there is an AR less people would come to your aid. So this argument goes both ways.

You have a nice day too =)

My contentions still stand, I will ad on to another case (more detailed)

Home defense:

In close range the guns have = accuracy, but the AK is better due to its larger round. It is bigger, so it will poke bigger holes into you, therofore is better because i stops the person intheir tracks, the AR you may have to shoot hima few extra times, wasting time, and giving the criminal more time.

Quotes:

One of the bulldozers uncovered the decomposing body of an enemy soldier, complete with AK47. I happened to be standing right there, looking down into the hole and pulled the AK out of the bog. "Watch this, guys," I said, "and I'll show you how a real infantry weapon works." I pulled the bolt back and fired 30 rounds - the AK could have been cleaned that day rather than buried in glug for a year or so. Thatwas the kind of weapon our soldiers needed, not the confidence-sapping M-16.
  • David Hackworth, US Army battallion commander, Vietnam War. In About Face, The Macmillan Company of Australia 1989 p669

So even an american general admits it.

Of all the weapons in the vast Soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947, more commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle, a weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple nine pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood, it doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It will shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy even a child could use it, and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars. 'Yuri Orlov


This reates to te simplicity argument, the popular argument, and the reliability argument.

AK-47, the very best there is. When you absolutely, positively, got to kill every m0therf*cker in the room; accept no substitutes. Ordell Robbie

I hoped my censor was enough (its a quote sorry please don't take of conduct). But basically this is a simple version of the debate.

If I had to go to a planet...an unknown planet, and I was allowed to take one firearm, it would be an AK-47.

  • Discovery Channel's top 10 Combat rifles

Why is is blue?!?!

http://en.wikiquote.org...

Basically the AK is overall a better weapon, even american genarals admit that. Vote PRO!





Lord_Logic

Con

Good luck, Pro!

"When yout in a trench or in a tight halway would you rather have smaller gun, or a lighter one? In small spaces ou wouldnt be able to turn, or other tactical moves. So sure weight helps, but in tight spaces an AK is superior because you get more space what with an AR." ~ Pro

Though the AR-15 is just 10cm longer, it is only under 4 inches longer. {1} Just 4 inches does not make AK-47 fit into tight places. You could, for example, tilt the AR-15 to 90 degrees and just run from there. 4 inches does not make the AK maneuver with ease. Both the AR and the AK may manuver with ease. In trenches, people from America, Sweden, and the United Kingdom used it. Did the AR fail in tight places like the trenches? No. {2}

"It is a fact that the AK is cheaper, and you know it, you dont even refute it, but you say the accuracy is worse on an AK:" ~ Pro

"Range from $550 to as much as you want to spend. Magazines run between $15 and $25," stated by {3}. It can be $550 dollars; $50 less than the AK-47. Thus, the AR-15 can be cheaper than the AK-47.

"Well since my round can go the average range of a gun fight than the range argument is irrelavant for the most part. Also he AK has the power to kill better, thats a fact, and is still a valid point. Also if you read the aricle on the AK it has 800m sight adjustments, but it's accuracy depends on the country of origin by that point. A well made american AK would do well, a Chinese one probably not. Since I have made no country of origin for my gun that is a depends situation." ~ Pro

The AR-15, from sudden research, shows that the AR is available in calibers, giving calibers the death situation for the AK-47s. Raining bullets.

"Well in whatgun fight do you fight at 400 yards? Also I have sht at 400 yards, the AR hits harder, bit its hard to do because you have to compensate more due to the range. (aim higher). So why would you be shooting at 400 yards unless you where trying to semi-snipe, wait AR's have iron sights usaualy...so it would be hard to hit your target. Once again I have shot at 400 yards, fun, but hard. And the frontsight course teaches you better than 99% of military personell (their claim). " ~ Pro

As I have just proven, the AR can be in the form of calibers. This increases more stopping power and a fast death. Let me clarify. The AR-15 can be in the form of calibers or in the rifles that shoot from long-range. Thus, the AR-15 is better in stopping power and energy hitting. {3}.

"Varieties"

Varieties, what I mean, is what the AR-15 comes in. There are calibers, scopes, and many accessories for the AR-15. AK-47? Not as much because it lacks a good platform.{3} and {4}.

"Reliability"

When a soldier is resting in the fort, he can spend his time and not get bored by cleaning his AR-15. In later battles, the barrel and the gun is extremely clean. Therefore, the reliability of the AK-47 does not matter.

"the Ak 47 is still the most popular assault weapon. 100 million built. (see above sources)" ~ Pro

Because the AR-15 is used by more than 76 countries, it will still be considered as a popular weapon. It can be in the form of assault weapons, pistols, calibers, etc.

"Loudness"

Ever thought of screaming instead? Scenario:

You sneak up behind a terrorist leader. You shoot him with an AK-47. Enemies hear it. You are dead.

You sneak up behind a terrorist leader. You shoot him with an AR-15. No one hears it. You escape.

Which scenario is better?

"Scopes"

So you are saying that you will "no-scope" everyone and most likely miss before you die? Ever thought of accuracy? Hiding behind cars and killing everyone from there? You mean that a thousand people will run toward the enemy in a city and never hide but charge? Good luck with that. You will miss.

"Home defense:"

First of all, shoot yourself. Will you stop there or run away? Most likely, you will stop there and inspect the wound for a quick second. This allows the person with the AR-15 to shoot once again. If your alarm accidentally went off? What if your son or relative comes out with a gun to shoot the criminal? You mistake him for the criminal. If you just pull the trigger of the AK, you would kill him in seconds. If you just shoot him once with the AR-15 and find out your mistake, he/she could be saved. Because the AK-47 shoots 10 shots per second, there is no way that you can save your relative. :(

Quotes of Praise

"The AK 47 has a bad recoil." ~ {5}

"I do prefer the accuracy and the ease of adding whatever the heck I want to my ARs... " ~ {6}

"I love how AR has sNiping rifles and other bada** stuff" ~ {6} (Hope I censored it well)

"Neither you, your AK, nor any other AK is superior to my AR." ~ {6}

"I think the AR is better," ~ 16kadams

A quote that shows the two rifles are the same:

"AR + Wolff heavy extractor spring + Heavy recoil spring plunger + quality ammo = accurate and reliable rifle.

AK + G2 trigger + recoil buffer + quality mags and ammo + Kobra sight = reliable and accurate rifle.

Both platforms are excellent and battle proven. Get both." ~ {6}

Thus, the AR-15 is better than or equal to the AK-47.

I await Pro's response.

{1} http://en.wikipedia.org...
{2} http://en.wikipedia.org...
{3} http://www.saysuncle.com...
{4} http://cheaperthandirt.com...
{5} http://www.hupitgaming.com...
{6} http://www.goldismoney2.com...
Debate Round No. 3
16kadams

Pro

I concede, although I think my arguments are superior I think that that the AR is better, and always have, and when it comes to guns it is hard to argue the other side. So that's that
Lord_Logic

Con

This was a fun and interesting debate. Funny, that is, that I believe that the AK-47 is awesome too. It's very nice to debate a person who has the courage to argue from what he/she doesn't believe in. I would like to praise 16kadams for a good debate and for stumping me at some times. Just to make sure:

"I concede, although I think my arguments are superior I think that that the AR is better, and always have, and when it comes to guns it is hard to argue the other side. So that's that" ~ 16kadams

"Concede definition-

1. to acknowledge as true, just, or proper; admit: He finally conceded that she was right. 2. to acknowledge (an opponent's victory, score, etc.) before it is officially established: to concede an election before all the votes are counted. 3. to grant as a right or privilege; yield: to concede a longer vacation for all employees." ~ {1}


Though I may be wrong, 16kadams states that he has forfeited and has admitted defeat to me. If I am wrong, I will have to post another round of counter-arguments.

I thank 16kadams for a fun debate.

{1} http://dictionary.reference.com...

Vote Con/ Lord_Logic. I would love it if the voters will give 16kadams some points for doing an excellent job as Pro. However, Con has won this debate. Vote Con.

Have a nice day everyone and I wish 16kadams and I will debate in the future. A debate that he does believe in.
Debate Round No. 4
16kadams

Pro

I request a tie, if he accepts this offer vote us a tie please. But add your input. So if he accepts vote us all even then in your RFD say who you think won.
Lord_Logic

Con

Sure. Tie accepted. And yes, please tell who you think won. Have a nice day everyone and I wish to debate 16kadams in the future.
Debate Round No. 5
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
I appologize, I stopped reading the debate at the concession point and went to vote. I have since corrected my vote and contacted the person that had countered mine to correct the counter aswell.
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
um... ugh its not a tie
Posted by tyler90az 5 years ago
tyler90az
M-16 military weapon = ar-15 the civilian version that has no automatic

the m-4 is what the military uses and would be your best argument
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
lol you two should debate
Posted by Lord_Logic 5 years ago
Lord_Logic
AR-15 is better!!! :)
Posted by tyler90az 5 years ago
tyler90az
ak-47 is a better combat weapon
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
hey not bolding your quotes is O.K, but bolding them helps the reader know who wrote what easier.
Posted by Lord_Logic 5 years ago
Lord_Logic
Dang I didn't bold my quotes.
Posted by Lord_Logic 5 years ago
Lord_Logic
finished...
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
ok
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by OberHerr 5 years ago
OberHerr
16kadamsLord_LogicTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Just tieing it.
Vote Placed by kyro90 5 years ago
kyro90
16kadamsLord_LogicTied
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Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: Wow both of you guys were really good! I would have given both of you a tie even if you didnt ask to because you both are excellent!
Vote Placed by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
16kadamsLord_LogicTied
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Total points awarded:33 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro conceded in the end. Ultimately it would have gone to Con regardless, due to a lack of verifiable sources from Pro. Both sides had numerous grammar and spelling issues, so neither side gets that, and conduct wasn't an issue with either side. A tie was requested and shall be granted. I feel this should be 0 - 5 in favor of Con, but will respect the wishes of the debaters.
Vote Placed by MasterKage 5 years ago
MasterKage
16kadamsLord_LogicTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Countering Ore_Ele. It was requested to be a tie. My thoughts- Well Pro Conceded so if it was not requested a tie Con would get the win.