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The Accused is going to Hell (For Rejecting Catholic Mariology)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/13/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 631 times Debate No: 38824
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Holy Relics:

Matthew 9:20-22 Jesus' Clothes Cure Disease
Acts 19:11-12 Hankerchiefs touched by Paul cure diesase
Acts 5:15 Peter's own shadow cures disease
2 Kings 2:11-14 Cloak of Elijah parts Jordan River
2 Kings 13:21 Bones of Elisha Raise the Dead (Bones of Saints are the most common Catholic Relic)

The blessings of the Ark is Mariology:

The Ark of the Old Covenant
2 Samuel 6:9 – “David feared the Lord that day and said, How can the ark of the Lord come to me?"

The Virgin Mary
Luke 1:43 –"[Elizabeth said]: And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

David Leapt Before the Ark
2 Samuel 6:16 – “As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Saul L9;s daughter Michal looked down through the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord...”

The Infant Leapt in the presence of Mary
Luke 1:41-44 – "And it came to pass, that,when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost..For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy."

The Ark stayed for three months
2 Samuel 6:11 – “The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite for three months, and the Lord blessed Obededom and his whole house.”

Mary (the Ark) stayed for three months
Luke 1:56-57 – “Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home. Now Elizabeth's full time of being delivered was come, and she brought forth a son. “

David set out to fetch the Ark from Judah
2 Samuel 6:2 – “Then David and all the people who were with him set out for
Baala of Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which bears the name of the Lord of hosts enthroned above the cherubim.”

This occurred when Mary (the Ark) went to Judah
Luke 1:39-40 – “During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.”


Since it carried and represented the presence of God, the Ark of the Old Covenant/Testament was the holiest and most powerful thing on Earth outside of God Himself. The Ark of the Covenant was a sacred chest which contained the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments (Deuteronomy 10:5). The Ark also carried and represented the spiritual presence of God on Earth. When God spoke to Moses, it was from between the two cherubim which were on the Ark.

Numbers 7:89- “And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the
Lord, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was
upon the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to

Exodus 25:21-22- “And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in
the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will
meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from
between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all
things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.”

Let’s now look at how the Bible identifies Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant.

The Ark of the Old Covenant
Contained the written word of God (Deut.10:5)

The Virgin Mary
Contained the Word of God made flesh, Jesus (Jn. 1:1)
The Ark of the Old Covenant
Was “overshadowed” by the power and presence of God (Exodus 40:34-35)

The Virgin Mary
Was “overshadowed” by the power and presence of the Most High (Luke 1:35)
The Ark contained the manna from the desert
Hebrews 9:4- “... the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein
was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant.”

Mary contained the manna from Heaven, Jesus
John 6:48-51- “I am that bread of life.Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven... and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

In Hebrews 9:4, we also see that the rod of Aaron was placed within the Ark of the Old Covenant. In Numbers 17, we read that this rod budded to prove the true high-priest. The rod of Aaron thus signified the true high-priest. In the New Testament, Jesus is described as the true high-priest.

Hebrews 3:1- “Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling,
consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus.”

Also see Hebrews 6:20, Hebrews 9:11, and other passages for more proof that Jesus is the true high-priest. The inescapable conclusion is that Aaron’s rod being placed within the Ark prefigured Jesus Christ, the true high-priest, being contained within Mary (the Ark of the New Covenant).

The Book of Revelation (Apocalypse) also indicates that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant:

Revelation 11:19,12-1- “And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. [12:1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.”

The Bible was not written with any chapters or verses indicated. It wasn’t until the 12th century that the Bible was divided into chapters and verses. Therefore, the author of Revelation, St. John the Apostle, wrote what begins chapter 12 in one continuous stream immediately after what ends chapter 11. At the end of chapter 11, we read that the Ark of Jesus’ testament/covenant was seen in Heaven. The very next verse is Revelation 12:1. Therefore, the words which end chapter 11 flow immediately into the words which begin chapter 12, without any division.

That means that the appearance of the Ark of Jesus’ covenant at the very end of
chapter 11 – “the ark of his testament was seen in his temple” (Rev. 11:19) – is immediately explained by the vision of “the woman” clothed with the sun which begins chapter twelve, the very next verse (Rev. 12:1). This indicates that “the woman” clothed with the sun, who bore the Divine Person in her womb (the Virgin Mary), is the Ark of the New Testament

There is absolutely no doubt that the New Testament indicates that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. This evidence is undeniable.


God gave the most precise specifications for the construction of the Ark. He ordered that it be made with the most pure gold.

Exodus 25:10-13,24- “And they shall make an ark of setim wood: two cubits
and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof,
and a cubit and a half the height thereof. And thou shalt overlay it with pure
gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of
gold round about. And thou shalt cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in the
four corners thereof; and two rings shall be in the one side of it, and two rings in
the other side of it. And thou shalt make staves of setim wood, and overlay them
with gold...”
It’s interesting that the Ark not only had to be overlaid with gold all around, but there is a specific reference to it having a “crown of gold round about.”

The Ark of the Old Covenant had a gold crown
Exodus 25:11- “And thou... shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about.”

The Virgin Mary (the New Ark) also has a crown
Apocalypse 12:1- “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.”
The Ark of the Old Covenant had to be perfect and holy because it was the seat of God’s unique spiritual presence. God’s holiness could not be tarnished by contact with that which had defects. Likewise and to a greater degree, the Virgin Mary, as the new Ark and bearer of Jesus Christ, had to be created without sin and in a state of perfection.

She did not merely contain the spiritual presence of God, but Jesus Christ (God Himself). She did not merely contain the written word of God, but the Word of God made flesh (John 1:1). Consequently, Mary must be perfect. She must be free from all sin. She must be an ever-virgin and untouched by man.

If the Ark of the Old Covenant, which contained the written tables of the Law and was overshadowed by the spiritual presence of God, had to be overlaid with the most pure gold and had to be constructed according to the most precise specifications of God, how much greater is God’s construction of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant? The fulfillment is greater than the type. Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, must be and is greater than the Ark of the Old Covenant.

Just like the Ark of the Old Covenant, Mary must also have tremendous power over the Devil and God’s enemies. She must have a unique power of intercession with God, in bringing down His blessings and in aiding the people of God, just as the Ark of the Old Covenant did.


Non-Catholic's are destroyed by God's Enemies just as an Israelite who refused to follow behind the Ark to battle.


On the Relics of the Saints

Despite of the fact that the Scriptures never commands us to honor relics, I agree that a relic of a saint may be honored if it is God's will (James 4:15).

Where does this practice came from?

The practice of honoring a relic came from the church's reading of the scriptures in the second century:

Matthew 9:20-22 Jesus' Clothes Cure Disease
Acts 19:11-12 Hankerchiefs touched by Paul cure diesase
2 Kings 13:21 Bones of Elisha Raise the Dead

What is the motive of a person who honors relics?

If honoring relics is a means to worship the Trinity then this is unbiblical because it is written " those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" ( John 4:2).

Unbiblical practice of Roman Catholicism related to honoring relics

- asking saints in heaven to pray for saints on earth
- bowing to and kissing of the relic

On Mary as the New Ark

I agree that Mary is a type of the Ark (2 Samuel 6:1-12; Luke 1:39-56). She conceived within her the Word of God, the Bread of Life ( John 1:14; 6:35).

Premise 1: Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant
Premise 2: The Ark is of corruptible nature.
Coclusion: MAry is of corruptible nature.


Hippolytus of Rome in the 2nd century had an error about the Ark of the New Covenant typology. His theological opinion that Mary is the Ark which is "of incorruptible nature" contradicts the Scriptural data about the Ark of God. Augustine rejects the idea that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant which shows that it is not universally accepted in the early church.

The Ark is not made of incorruptible wood per se in the sense of " unable to destroy or breakdown". The LXX renders " acacia" wood of Hebrew scripture as " incorruptible" in the sense of its " lastingness" because we know that acacia trees .
won't last for all eternity.Hence, my argument about Mary as the NT Ark who is contaminated with original sin stands.

How could Mary contain within her the Holy God?

For with God nothing shall be impossible ( Luke 1:37). It is through the hypostatic Union and virgin birth. Jesus "became in the likeness of men, was sent in the likeness of the flesh of sin" ( Romans 8:2-3, Philippians 2:7-8).The original sin is passed through the fertilization of a female human egg with a male human sperm which are both contaminated with the original sin. Jesus has his human nature not from Adam's infected nature but from the power of the Holy Spirit ( Luke 1:35).

In what sense was the "Ark" Holy?

It can't mean in the sense of substance because the entire creation is cursed ( Genesis 3). Hence, those are Holy in subjective sense only. The term holiness should be qualified as " to set apart, sacred" to avoid nuances.keness of the flesh of sin" ( Romans 8:2-3, Philippians 2:7-8).The original sin is passed through the fertilization of a female human egg with a male human sperm which are both contaminated with the original sin. Jesus has his human nature not from Adam's infected nature but from the power of the Holy Spirit ( Luke 1:35).

The Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament is made of cursed materials (Rom. 8:22) but still, it is considered " sacred or set apart" because it contains " divine stuffs" related to YHWH.

On the original sin of Mary

Scriptural evidence # 1: Romans 8:3

Jesus experienced the consequences of the original sin. Why? It is because he was " sent in the likeness of sinful flesh" ( Romans 8:3). If Mary is not infected with O.S. then Jesus can't experience pain and death.

According to church fathers (i.e. Augustine and Ambrose to name a few) original sin is passed on via male progenitor and female progenitor both who are infected with sin.

Jesus did not inherit original sin because his flesh is not made of both male and female progenitors of sinful nature but only of Mary.

Mary's original sin was not passed on her offspring because Mary's egg wasn't fertilised by a sperm cell of a Male progenitor with original sin.

Philippians 2:6 said that the Son became in the likeness of men. Why likeness? It is because he is not infected with original sin.

Romans 8:3 says that God sent his own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin.

Mary has " the flesh of sin" ( i.e. She's infected with original sin). Jesus is the "likeness" of the flesh of sin. Therefore, he could experience the effects of sin ( i.e human pain and human death) without having the original sin.

Premise 1: Jesus is in the likeness of the flesh of sin.
Premise 2: Mary is Jesus' mother
Conclusion: Mary has the flesh of sin and Jesus is her likeness.

I only concurred with one definition of the word "likeness" which according to scriptural context is "similarity".

The Son "became similar to men" (Philippians 2:6). In what way did he become similar to men? Context implies that he became similar to men regarding the "effects of original sin" which is human pain and human death ("death on a cross. Philippians 2:8)

Romans 8:6 is explicit too. It says that the Son was sent by God "similar to the flesh of sin".

If Mary is not infected with original sin then how could Jesus experience human pain and death?

Premise 1: Only humans with original sin could experience pain and death (Genesis 3).
Premise 2: Mary has original sin (Romans 8:3).
Premise 3: Mary got pregnant without a sperm with original sin (Matthew 1:21).
Conclusion: Mary"s offspring could experience pain and death without having original sin (1 Peter 3:18).

Scriptural evidence # 2: Luke 1:28

I believe that Mary is perpetually full of grace. Full means she doesn't lack any grace. Grace means undeserved kindness. Hence, Mary " doesn't lack any undeserved kindness " from the Holy Trinity. But this led to the question of WHAT are those graces given to her? St. Luke didn't specify it. He just recorded Gabriel's greeting: kecharitomene.

The autographa reads literally as:

Greetings! You who have been graced!

Vulgate is not literal translation of kecharitomene but a dynamic equivalence.
Kecharitomene is not a title in Greek.

Charito in kecharitomene is a VERB ( past participle).

The Latin Vulgate translates it as NOUN whereas the english translation of latin vulgate is " full of grace" ( a noun also not a verb like what St. Luke originally wrote).

Full of Grace in itself came from the Latin Vulgate not from the Greek MSS.

kecharitomene is the Greek word found in Luke 1:26 and it is used by the church in Rome for proof about the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. To find out if this is plausible let's have a little grammar of the said word:

ke- present perfect tense ( an action happened in the past that continues up to the present time).
charito- grace, undeserve kindness
mene-passive participle( Mary Receiver not giver of grace)

The Greek literally means " You have been graced".

Mary has received grace from God both in the past and in the present. What she has received in the past is just continuing to be in her possession at Gabriel"s greeting. Hence, she is complete of grace at the time of the Annuniciation.

In the Vulgate, Luke 1:28 says that Mary is "full of grace" and according to the Scriptures, only sinners are given grace.

Grace means "undeserved kindness" .

The Holy Angels can't be given grace because they are elected by God according to their works ( 1 Tim. 5:21).

The Saints are given grace because they are elected by God not according to their works but according to God's grace ( Romans 11:5).

Premise 1: Mary is given grace
Premise 2: grace is given only to sinners
Conclusion: Mary is a sinner

Debate Round No. 1


The honor paid to relics is similar to that of the Ark of the Covenant, this is consistent as the reason for the blessings is due to the respect paid to them.

Now a lot of your rationale for Mary having O.S. is over-intellectualizing. The Ark was pure: Revelation 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled (note: the Ark was assumed into heaven as Mary was)

We need to look at the parallels with Eve who was born without sin.


Jesus Christ was true God and true man. Adam was only a man, the first man. However, the Bible says that Adam was a type of the one who was to come, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:14- “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure [type] of him that was to come [Jesus].

How was Adam a type of Jesus? It’s perhaps best summed up in this passage.

Romans 5:19- “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Adam plunged the world into sin; Christ came to redeem the world from Adam’s sin. Adam sinned by his disobedience at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; Christ redeemed the world by His obedience and sacrifice on the tree of the Cross.

He came to undo what Adam did He became the head of the new and redeemed race of those who supernaturally live in Christ, whereas Adam, the first man, was the head of humanity which fell into sin.


1 Corinthians 15:45- “And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”

There are many biblical types.

1 Cor. 10:1-2 – Crossing of the Red Sea (Exodus 14) prefigured baptism.

1 Peter 3:19-21 – Noah’s Ark and the Great Flood prefigured being saved by baptism and the Church.

1 Cor. 5:7 – Passover Lamb, which was sacrificed (Exodus 12), prefigured Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29).

Heb. 8:8-9 – Old Testament system was a “shadow” or figure of the New Testament.

Matthew 12:40 – Jonas’ three days and nights in the belly of the whale prefigured Jesus Christ’s Resurrection from the dead after three days.

It’s important to understand that the fulfillment of a type (called an “antitype”) is greater than the type.

Jesus Christ is infinitely greater than Adam; the New Testament is greater than the Old; the Resurrection is greater than the travails of Jonas; etc.

With that in mind, we must now consider types of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. There are many types of Mary. In addition to other biblical evidence, these types provide undeniable biblical proof for Catholic teachings about Mary.

The following points will undoubtedly be new and surprising to many non-Catholics.


As mentioned already, Adam was a type of Jesus Christ. It was Adam’s transgression which constituted the original sin. But Eve was instrumental and inextricably bound up with the events leading up to the original sin. The woman (Eve) sinned and was the occasion for Adam to sin.

Genesis 3:1-6- “Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”

Just as “the woman” (Eve) was intimately involved in the events leading up to the original sin, there is a distinct woman who was intimately involved in the events leading up to the Redemption. That is Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. She is the new Eve.



Genesis 3:4-6- And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die...she [Eve] took of the fruit thereof, and did eat...”

Luke 1:26-38- “... the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of a virgin... and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women... And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus... And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.”

Eve was approached by the serpent (the Devil), a fallen angel. Eve believed his lying words and disobeyed God. Eve sinned and caused her husband to sin, plunging the world into death.

Mary was approached by Gabriel, a good angel. Mary believed his message of salvation: that she was blessed among women, full of grace, and would bring forth the Savior. Mary obeyed God. By her obedience, she consented to the conception of Jesus Christ in her womb, and enabled Him to come and redeem the world from Adam’s sin.

Even in the very ancient Church, these biblical parallels were recognized as identifications of Mary as the new Eve, just as Christ is the new Adam.

St. Irenaeus was a famous apostolic father from the second century. He contrasts the first Eve with the second Eve (Mary).

St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. 22, 185 A.D.- “In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done unto me according to your word (Luke 1:38). But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin... And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.”


Genesis 3:20- “And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all the living.”

Eve was called the “mother of all the living” because all who had life descended from her. Mary is also the mother of all the living, but indeed in a greater way. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, who is Life itself and in whom all life is to be found.

John 1:4- “In him [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men.”

Matthew 1:16- “Mary, of whom was born Jesus...”

John 14:6- “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Jesus is the Life. Mary is, therefore, literally the mother of Life itself. The parallel to Eve, the mother of all the living, is clear. The difference is that Mary is the mother of a Life that is infinitely greater than human existence. Those who live and die in her Son have access to eternal life in Him and become new creatures.

2 Corinthians 5:17- “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.”

The fulfillment (Mary as mother of all the living) is again greater than the type (Eve as mother of all the living).


We’ve seen that the Bible indicates that Mary is the new Eve. So the question is: in what state was the soul of Eve created? Eve was created in Genesis 2 free from all sin. The entire creation was perfect until the fall of mankind. Adam and Eve were both created in a state of original justice. They didn’t lose that state of original perfection, in which they were free from all sin, until the original sin in Genesis 3.

If God created the first woman (the first Eve) without any sin, then He could certainly create the second (and greater) Eve (the Blessed Virgin Mary) without any sin. That’s exactly what He did. He had to do so as a matter of proportion and justice because she would be the first member of the redeemed humanity.


Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, Dec. 8, 1854- “We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

God preserved her without sin in view of the saving merits of Jesus Christ. It was done for Mary because she had to be the uncursed and pure vessel which would carry the all-holy God. In order to carry infinite holiness, Mary had to be holy from the first instant of her creation.That’s how God saved Mary. Jesus was her Savior in an even greater way, by preventing her from ever contracting original sin, and by preserving her from sin throughout her life.He did this for Mary, in view of her unique role. The sinlessness of Mary is indicated by numerous types in the Bible. Some express disbelief at the notion that God would create someone completely free from sin. They are forgetting that God created the first man and woman without sin.

Jesus indentified Mary as the “woman” of Genesis 3:15
John 2:3-5- “And Jesus saith to her:

Genesis 3:15 reveals that it is Mary whom crushes the head of the devil for all Catholics.



On the Assumption of Mary

If the Old Testament Ark was taken up (i.e. assumed) into Heaven then why Mary, the New Ark, was not taken up?

The Ark was taken to heaven because it’s a thing, a box indeed which is of sacred importance.

The Scripture never records that Mary was resurrected and was assumed into heaven.

According to the scriptural data, Mary is infected with the original sin and hence, must experience human death (Luke 1:28, Romans 8:3).


Therefore, the Scripture can only validates is that Mary’s spirit must have been taken by angels into the paradise the very moment of her death (Luke 16:22).

On Mary as the Second Eve

If Mary was the second Eve then she must be 1) sinless 2) peccable ( i.e. able to sin).

The Scriptures never records that Mary was the second Eve.

According to the scriptural data, Mary is infected with the original sin and hence, she’s not sinless and that her ability to sin wasn’t from her being the Second Eve but from being the offspring of Eve per se (Luke 1:28, Romans 8:3).

In fact, Mary cannot be the second Eve at all because Jesus wasn’t the second Adam. The Scriptures never records Jesus as the “second Adam” but as “the last Adam”:

1 Corinthians 15:45- “And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”

Jesus as the Last Adam evinces that there’s no second, third and fourth Adam. It means that Jesus cannot fail (i.e. impeccable) because if he did fail then it means that he is not the Last Adam.


For Mary to be an antitype of Eve, she must be 1) sinless 2) impeccable but these were not demonstrated in the Scriptures but on the contrary, the Scriptures present plain teaching about Mary: She’s both the New Testament Ark and the one who’s Full of Grace, both which are predicates that explains her need of a Savior just like the rest of humanity ( Luke 1:28, Romans 8:3).

On Mary as the Mother of all living

If Mary is the mother of all living (i.e. the church) then she must be expressing her motherhood to her offspring through 1) Nurturing, protecting, and teaching her child (i.e. the church) 2) intercession (i.e. prayer) for them.

The Scripture never records that Mary as the Mother of all the living (i.e. the church).

The RCC found this idea in making Mary as the antitype of Eve just as Jesus is Adam’s antitype. But it is already proven that Mary cannot be an antitype of Eve because she is impeccable.

Eve was the mother of all the living (i.e. humans) for in and through her all will the possibility of offspring to exist. Simply put, without Eve Adam couldn’t have a baby. Hence, Eve was the progenitor of all biological humans.

Mary, on the other hand, cannot be the mother of the church because every function a mother does for such a holy assembly can only be a work of the holy Trinity.

In fact, the New Testament explicitly records who is the mother of the church and it's not Mary!

But the Jerusalem (not Mary) that is above is free, and
she is our mother. --Galatians 4:26 ( New Testament age, written by the Apostle Paul himself).

On the Intercession of Mary

Mary is praying for the church according to the Scriptures per se (Revelation 5:8, Revelation 8:3–4).

On the other hand, there was never a command in the Scriptures to ask Mary in heaven to pray for us sinners on earth.

If Mary is already praying for us in heaven without us asking her to do it then how great it is!

In fact, Mary and all other saints in heaven are not aware of what’s happening on earth based on the scriptures itself:

Luke 15:1-10 proves without a shadow of doubt that persons in heaven is not aware of what’s happening on earth unless God told them.

On Genesis 3:15

The Seed

Mary wasn’t the one who will crush the head of the serpent. The Septuagint records this:

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

The Woman

The Woman in Genesis 3:15 is not Mary but Eve because if Mary was the Woman then does the text indicate a change in the identity of the woman on either a literal or spiritual level? No it does not. So, the woman in Gen 3:15 is NOT Mary, it is Eve. The enmity with Satan began with Eve and her offspring immediately after the fall, NOT with the birth of Jesus. Adam and Eve were expelled from garden of Eden as a result of their sin, and suddenly had to work and till the soil for food. They were forbidden to eat from the tree of life and faced a certain death as a result. Who doubts the enmity with Satan and his seed began with Adam and Eve?

Debate Round No. 2


The fulfillment is always greater than the type. Since the Ark was assumed into Heaven, so was Mary, in a greater way. There is scripture regarding this also:

Luke 1:32 says the following of Jesus: “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord
God shall give unto him the throne of David his father...

(Note: Jesus sits on the Throne of David, now we look at the pre-figurement types of the King's Mother)

1 Kings 2:19-20- “Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to
her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right hand. And she said to
him: I desire one small petition of thee, do not put me to confusion. And the king said to her: My mother, ask: for I must not turn away thy face.

(Note: The King's Mother sits at the right hand of the King)

Psalms 45:6, 9- Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom... The queen stood on thy right hand,
in gilded clothing...”
(Note: The Mother of God sits at the right hand of God (Jesus))
1 Kings 2:17- “And he (Adonias) said: I pray thee speak to king Solomon (for 
he cannot deny thee any thing) to give me Abisag the Sunamitess to wife.”

(Note: Adonias understood the position and the influence of the Queen Mother over the King. - This is important as we will see when
we debate about the Communion of Saints))


On Mary as the Mother of Life:

2 Corinthians 5:17- “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.”

New species!

" The Seed "

This is where Protestant Biblical Censorship gets really interesting:

Protestants claim that "He will crush the serpents head". There are several Pre-Christian Judean's that insist the translation is "She", and that the Masoretic text is corrupt.

The bible itself reveals through antitypes that the true wording is "She will crush his head":

And she struck twice upon his neck, and cut off his head..." (Judith 13:9-10)

Esther 16:18 (A woman convinces the beheading of the wicked king Ammon)

She put her left hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workman's hammer, and she struck Sisara, seeking in his head a place for the wound, and strongly piercing through his temples. At her feet he fell..." (Judges 5:26-27)

(Note: Women are frequently attacking the heads of the wicked)

The serpent comes at the womans heel (Revelation 12):

October 18th 1917 Virgin Mary clothed in the Sun appears at Fatima to 70,000 witnesses (First video on the right) 

October 25th 1917 Bolshevik Revolution (Red Dragon comes at the Heel of the Womain - Genesis 3:15)

i. Red Dragon has 7 "crowned" heads (Soviet Union had 7 Undisputed Leaders [Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, Gorbachev])

ii. Red Dragon wiped out 1/3rd of the stars from heaven (Soviet Union conquered 1/3rd of the earth)

iii. Red Dragon wages war against "The Offspring of the Woman" (Soviet Union Murders 40,000,000 Catholics.)

(Note: "Offspring of the Woman" again shows that Mary is the antitype and of thus "Last Eve"

iv. Soviet Union dissolved Dec 1991 and the EU took its authority Feb 1992 adopting all it's atheist socialist policies. (Dragon stood at the edge of the sea and out came the Beast)

The Western European Union had 10 Kingdoms (Horns) which transferred their authority to the European Union (Beast) in 2009 via Lisbon Treaty.

The 10 Kingdoms (Horns) adopted the Atheist Policies of the Soviet Union after World War 2 (The Dragon transfers authority to the Beast).

The European Union hates the Apostate Catholic Church (Whore of Babylon).

This is just overwhelming evidence that God only considers "His People" to be Catholics.

Revelation 18:4 "'Come out of her, my people,'


My opponent did not refute my rebuttals but on the contrary, he continues to post one argument after another. I already disprove his mariology as false based on the Scriptures that's why unless he refuted it all he cannot reiterate his arguments all over again without any contradiction in the Scriptures as a whole.

"Are apparitions of Mary, such as Lady Fatima, true messages from God?"

An apparition being authentic does not mean it is a message from God or a genuine appearance of Mary, an angel, or a saint. Scripture declares that Satan and his demons masquerade as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14-15). Satanic deception is just as possible an explanation for the apparitions.

The only way to determine whether an apparition is a "lying wonder" or a genuine message from God is to compare the message of the apparition with Scripture. If the teachings that are attached to these apparitions are contrary to the Word of God, the apparitions themselves are then satanic in nature. A study of the teachings of Our Lady Fatima with the "Miracle of the Sun" is a good example.

It would indeed seem that something spectacular happened on October 13, 1917, and that “something” did in fact appear and deliver a message. The fact that its timing coincided with what had been told to the shepherd children three months earlier would seem to tie this event with the apparitions they had been seeing over the previous months, first of the angel and later of the "Lady of Fatima."

When one compares the message of Fatima to what the Bible teaches, it is evident that the message of Fatima combines some biblical truth with several unbiblical practices and teachings. The following paragraphs are quoted directly from a website dedicated to the "Lady of Fatima," Specific words or sentences are underlined to indicate them to be unbiblical (not taught by the Bible), or anti-biblical (contradictory to the Bible). Following the lengthy quotations, more information will be given with specific reasons for classifying these apparitions as "lying wonders." Here then is a quoted summary of the overall message given by the Lady of Fatima:

The Message of Lady Fatima in General

"The Angel demonstrated to the children the fervent, attentive, and composed manner in which we should all pray, and the reverence we should show toward God in prayer. He also explained to them the great importance ofpraying and making sacrifices in reparation for the offenses committed against God.He told them: 'Make of everything you can a sacrifice andoffer it to God as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and in supplication, for the conversion of sinners.'In his third and final apparition to the children, the Angel gave them Holy Communion, and demonstrated theproper way to receive Our Lord in the Eucharist: all three children knelt to receive Communion;Lucy was given the Sacred Host on the tongue and the Angel shared the Blood of the Chalice between Francisco and Jacinta.

"Our Lady stressed the importance of praying the Rosary in each of Her apparitions, asking the children topray the Rosary every day for peace.Another principal part of the Message of Fatima is devotion toOur Lady’s Immaculate Heart, which is terribly outraged and offended by the sins of humanity, and we are lovingly urged to console Her by making reparation. She showed Her Heart, surrounded by piercing thorns (which represented the sins against Her Immaculate Heart), to the children, who understood that their sacrifices could help to console Her.

"The children also saw that God is terribly offended by the sins of humanity, and that He desires each of us and all mankind to abandon sin andmake reparation for their crimes through prayer and sacrifice.Our Lady sadly pleaded: 'Do not offend the Lord our God any more, for He is already too much offended!'

"The children were also told to pray and sacrifice themselves for sinners, in order to save them from hell.The children were briefly shown a vision of hell, after which Our Lady told them: 'You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go.To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.'

"Our Lady indicated to us the specific root of all the troubles in the world, the one that causes world wars and such terrible suffering: sin. She then gave a solution, first to individual people, then to the Church’s leaders.God asks each one of us to stop offending Him. We must pray, especially the Rosary. By this frequent prayer of the Rosary, we will get the graces we need to overcome sin. God wants us to have devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and to work to spread this devotion throughout the world. Our Lady said, 'My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God.' If we wish to go to God, we have a sure way to Him through true devotion to the Immaculate Heart of His Mother.

"In order to move ever closer to Her, and therefore to Her Son, Our Lady stressed the importance of praying at least five decades of the Rosary daily. She asked us to wear the Brown Scapular. And we must make sacrifices, especially the sacrifice of doing our daily duty, in reparation for the sins committed against Our Lord and Our Lady. She also stressed the necessity of prayers and sacrifices to save poor sinners from hell. The Message of Fatima, to individual souls, is summarized in these things."

"Father, the Most Holy Virgin did not tell me that we are in the last times of the world, but She made me understand this for three reasons. The first reason is because She told me that the devil is in the mood for engaging in adecisive battle against the Virgin.The second reason is because She said to my cousins as well as to myself, thatGod is giving two last remedies to the world. They are the Holy Rosary and devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.These are the last two remedies which signify that there will be no others.

"The third reason is because in the plans of Divine Providence, God always, before He is about to chastise the world, exhausts all other remedies. Now, when He sees that the world pays no attention whatsoever then, as we say in our imperfect manner of speaking, He offers us with a certain trepidationthe last means of salvation, His Most Holy Mother.It is with a certain trepidation because if you despise and reject this ultimate means, we will not have any more forgiveness from Heaven, because we will have committed a sin which the Gospel calls the sin against the Holy Ghost. This sin consists of openly rejecting, with full knowledge and consent, the salvation which He offers. Let us remember that Jesus Christ is a very good Son and thatHe does not permit that we offend and despise His Most Holy Mother.We have recorded through many centuries of Church history the obvious testimony which demonstrates by the terrible chastisements which have befallen those who have attackedthe honor of His Most Holy Mother, how Our Lord Jesus Christ has always defended the honor of His Mother.

"The two means for saving the world are prayer and sacrifice.[Regarding the Holy Rosary, Sister Lucy said:] Look, Father,the Most Holy Virgin, in these last times in which we live, has given a new efficacy to the recitation of the Rosary to such an extent that there is no problem, no matter how difficult it is, whether temporal or above all spiritual, in the personal life of each one of us, of our families, of the families of the world or of the religious communities, or even of the life of peoples and nations, that cannot be solved by the Rosary. There is no problem, I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we cannot resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary.

Mary is referred to as the "Most Holy Mother" and having an "Immaculate Heart." But I already refuted immaculate conception other false theolgies related to Roman Catholic Mariology from Round 1 and Round 2.

Concerning the "Miracle of the Sun," there are repeated cases in which "lying wonders" are spoken of in Scripture (Exodus 7:22;8:7;8:18;Matthew 24:24;Mark 13:22;Revelation 13:13-14). God tells us inDeuteronomy 13:1fthat when someone makes a prediction that comes true or gives a seemingly miraculous "sign," but he is teaching the worship of strange gods, not to give heed to him but rather to treat him as a false prophet.

For a Christian, the "content of faith" ought to be the Bible and what it teaches (Isaiah 8:20;2 Timothy 3:16).

Was the "Miracle of the Sun" a lying wonder? Based on biblical teaching, it would certainly seem so. Satan has no problem mixing enough truth to make a teaching seem right with just enough error to damn souls to hell. Where is the gospel of salvation by grace through faith in Christ—the message repeated throughout the whole of the New Testament—ever mentioned in the whole message of Fatima? Where is it ever mentioned that salvation is only through faith in Christ's finished work on Calvary and that our works have no merit apart from Him (Ephesians 2:8-9)? Penance and making offerings for reparation of our sins are antithetical to Christ's finished work on Calvary and of our need for salvation by grace alone through faith in Him alone. Calling upon Mary and her “Immaculate Heart” and viewing the Rosary as the ultimate means of saving souls fly in the face of such biblical truths asActs 4:12and1 Timothy 2:5.

"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).


Debate Round No. 3


The Immaculate Heart, Rosary, Apparitions; not too hard to defend with the bible: ;

(Video on right about Marian Apparition that converted hundreds of millions of people to Catholicism.)

In the Old Testament God spoke to his people from the Ark:

Exodus 25:21-22- “And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in
the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will
meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from
between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all
things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.”

So in the New Covenant, God speaks to us through Apparitions of the Ark of the New Covenant (Virgin Mary).

Immaculate Heart and Rosary:
Luke 2:35- “(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

We see that the persons attitude towards Mary reveals their heart, this is why Catholics ask Mary to give them the perfect contrition needed to speak with God.

And not just Mary, the Bible tells us to Commune with all of the Saints:

Jeremiah 15:1 the LORD said to me: "Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people."

We see that where there is Law there is Lawyers, and God (The Judge) really likes these Defense Attorneys. I don't know about you, but I'd have them on my team.

Protestants think Saints are dead and can't represent you:

Matthew 22:29-31 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God...I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

So Saints aren't really dead. We see this twice in the Old Testament:

1 Samuel 28:18 Spirit of Saint Samuel brings God's Message to King Saul
2 Macabees 15:12 Spirit of Saints Onias and Jeremias bring Gifts from God

What is even more interesting is that throughout the Old Testament; every time God speaks to someone it is through an Angel.


1 Chronicles 21:18 Then the angel of the LORD ordered Gad to tell David to go up and build an altar to the LORD on the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
Hosea 12:4 Prays to the Angel
Judges 6:12-13 Gideon reveals that speaking to God you are actually talking to an Angel.

But who are the Angels?

They are Beatified Saints:

Matthew 22:29 Saints are Angels (Jesus says you don't know the scriptures if you didn't know this, next verses say Moses Isaac and Abraham are "Alive")
Luke 20:34-36 Saints are Angels
Hebrews 12:22-25 Saints are Angels
Matthew 11:9-10 (Catholic Bible) Jesus calls John an Angel.
Exodus 32:9-15 Moses talks God out of destroying the Hebrews (Clear example of intercession of Saints)
Genesis 18:26-33 Abraham talks God out of destroying the city.
Job 42:7-10 Sinners are instructed to have Job pray on their behalf
Exodus 17:11-13 Moses' hands controlled the outcome of the battle
John 10:16 Jesus is the Shephard John 21:15-17 Jesus appoints Peter sub-shepard. Ephesians 4:11 teaches there are many sub-shepards.
John 9:39 Jesus is the supreme judge but 1cor 6:2 Matthew 19:28 teaches Saints are sub-judges.
Romans 15:30 Paul asks Saints to pray for him.
1 Cor 1:11 Prayers of Saints bring blessings
Col 1:24 Suffering of Saints fill up what is lacking in Jesus' Sacrifice
Romans 8:38 Death does not seperate a Saint from life.
1 cor 12:21 Death does not seperate a Saint from life.
James 5:16 Saints prayers bring blessings
Matthew 17:2-3 Jesus invokes Saints
Hebrews 1:14 Saints are Angels
1 Samuel 28:18 Spirit of Saint Samuel brings God's Message to King Saul
2 Macabees 15:12 Spirit of Saints Onias and Jeremias bring Gifts from God
Jeremiah 15:1 God reveals his attitude that Saints influence his decisions
Acts 27:21-23 Mens lives are saved through intercession of Saint Paul
Philippians 3:17 Saints are to be modeled after
James 5:10 Prophets are to be modeled after
Hebrews 11 lists Saints and calls them Angels "in the cloud"
Psalm 82 shows souls and Angels are the same
So it is pretty clear that in order to speak with God you must Commune with Saints, you must have an Angel appear to deliver your message.

Of course this will never happen for Protestants, because they do not have the perfect contrition bestowed by the Heart of Mary.



Again, my opponent did not address my arguments at all but on the contrary, he still presented an another argument without finishing refuting first my previous arguments. Now, he ends up with the communion of the saints which he believes to be the intercessory act of saints in heaven for saints on earth.

On the Invocation of the Saints

Luke 15:1-10 proves without a shadow of doubt that persons in heaven is not aware of what’s happening on earth unless God told them:

The Parable of the Lost Sheep

15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

The Parable of the Lost Coin

8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

In both parables, only the persons who lost and found something knows the entire happenings and their freinds came to know about it only after they were told to. This is very significant because it clearly shows that the saints in heaven are unaware of what's happening on earth unless God told them about it.


The saints on earth cannot ask the saints in heaven to pray for them because they simply will not hear for they can't based on Luke's own gospel. The invocation of the saints in heaven is unbiblical but the intercession of the saints in heaven is biblical ( Revelation 5:8).

Debate Round No. 4


Lets take a closer look at Revelation 5:8

Revelation 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Tobit 12:15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.

We see then actually that the 24 elders (Old Testament Saints) are Angels just as Raphael.

We look at the definition of Angel: a messenger, especially of God.

All of the Saints are Angels by this definition.

Now this is really revealing:

Judges 6:12-15

12When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.”

13Pardon me, my lord,” Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now theLord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.”

14The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?”

15Pardon me, my lord,” Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.”

We see that talking to an Angel is the same as talking to God, God speaks through his Angels; just as he speaks through his Saints, this is the very reason we consider the Bible to be inspired by God.

Angels are always interceding: 1 Corinthians 11:10 Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head, on account of the angels.

Jesus invokes the angels:

Matthew 17:3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

(Note: Peter wants to build a shelter for them, meaning they are actually there!)

Of course this is censored from Protestant Bibles:

2 Macabees 15:12 Spirit of Saints Onias and Jeremias bring Gifts from God

The Protestant Censorship is worse than Soviet Censorship!:

Matthew 27:43 >

"He trusted in God; let him now deliver Him if he will have Him; for He said: I am the Son of God."
Wisdom 2:18 >
"For if he be the true Son of God, He will defend Him, and will deliver Him from the hands of His enemies."

(Note: Clear prophesy censored in Protestant Bibles! Amazing!)

"The Scripture never records that Mary was resurrected and was assumed into heaven."

Why not?

the Bible tells us that Elijah was miraculously carried away to Heaven (2 Kings 2:1,11). 
We also read that Enoch was miraculously carried away to walk with God (Heb. 11:5; Gen. 5:24).

It says here the Queen sits at the right hand of God, is Jesus the Queen?

Psalms 45:6, 9- “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom... The queen stood on thy right hand,"

You have to realize that every sentance in the Old Testament foreshadows an event in the New, some even fulfilled in our time; this is how Catholicism is justified:

Selected prophesies of the Blessed Virgin

Ezechiel 44:2 > "This gate shall be shut … no man shall pass through it … the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it."

Ecclesiasticus 24:24 > "I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope."

Proverbs 30:11-12 > "There is a generation that ... doth not bless their mother. A generation pure in their own eyes and yet not washed from their filthiness."

Proverbs 8:35 > "He that shall find me (the Blessed Virgin), shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord."
Wisdom 7:26 > "For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God's majesty."

Psalm 131:8 > "Arise, O Lord, into Thy resting place: Thou and the ark, which Thou hast sanctified." (The Blessed Virgin bodily in Heaven)



On the Intercession of the Saints

Judges 6:12-15 is a Theophany. It’s not a creature but the Creator in ethereal form! Of course, we can pray to YHWH! He is God.

PRO: Angels are always interceding: 1 Corinthians 11:10 Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head, on account of the angels.
CON:  I agree with the intercession of the angels NOT the invocation of the angels. 1 Corinthians 11:10 proves my point.

Matthew 17:3 Jesus called Moses and Elijah and they conversed. The two are alive but Surely, Jesus is not asking the two to pray for him in heaven although that’s a possibility. The fact is, this is a face-to-face communion, a live one. The Roman Catholic dogma of invocation of the saints is very different from the Transfiguration of Christ. We don’t have the saints in heaven face-to-face with us AND what the Scriptures only commands is that the saints on earth must intercede for people on earth (1 Timothy 2:1) and also, it’s explicit that the saints in heaven are unaware of what's happening on earth unless God told them about it ( Luke 15:1-10)

On the Assumption of Mary
I believe that Elijah was carried away to heaven based on 2 Kings 2:1,11 and I also believe that Enoch was miraculously carried away to walk with God based on Heb. 11:5; Gen. 5:24 but Mary was assumed to heaven based on what? The Scripture never records it.

On the Queen-ship of Mary
Psalm 45:9 doesn’t talk about a woman becoming a queen by virtue of his son becoming king but on the contrary, the context of the verse talks about a queen who is the bride of the king. That is, Psalm 45 is a wedding song. Any one can read the entire Psalm chapter 45 and any one can clearly see that it doesn’t talk about either Mary or a mother’s queen-ship at all!

A footnote in the New American Bible (NAB; a Roman Catholic version) is helpful:
[Psalm 45] A song for the Davidic king's marriage to a foreign princess from Tyre in Phoenicia. The court poet sings (Psalm 45:2, 18) of God's choice of the king (Psalm 45:3, 8), of his role in establishing divine rule (Psalm 45:4-8), and of his splendor as he waits for his bride (Psalm 45:9-10). The woman is to forget her own house when she becomes wife to the king (Psalm 45:11-13). Her majestic beauty today is a sign of the future prosperity of the royal house (Psalm 45:14-17). The psalm was retained in the collection when there was no reigning king, and came to be applied to the king who was to come, the messiah.

Selected prophesies of the Blessed Virgin
Ezekiel 44:2 I agree that this refers to Mary as ever-virgin. The church fathers agree.
Ecclesiasticus 24:24 This is not an inspired scripture. Early church fathers agree. Melito (A.D. 170) and Origen ( A.D. 185-254) rejected the Apocrypha, (Eccl. Hist. VI. 25, Eusebius) as does the Muratorian Canon (A.D.170-200 ).
Any one may see for themselves that Ecclesiasticus is explicitly not inspired: 
Ecclesiasticus 25:19 Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife's iniquity.
It clearly contradicts James 2:10, Romans 3:10 and Matthew 21:31 
Proverbs 30:11-12 doesn’t talk about Mary at all.
Proverbs 8:35 is talking about Jesus not Mary! This is blasphemy! The text of Proverbs 8 talks about Wisdom, the eternally begotten offspring of God (The Nicene Creed is also based on this). –John 3:16, 1 Corinthians 1:24-25
Again, Wisdom 7:26 is talking about Jesus. Paul alluded to this Inter-testamental Jewish text in his epistle the Hebrews 1:3.

Psalm 139:8 is not Mary according to Augustine himself:

"'Arise, O Lord, into Thy resting place' (ver. 8). He saith unto the Lord sleeping, 'Arise.' Ye know already who slept, and who rose again. ...'Thou, and the ark of Thy sanctification:' that is, Arise, that the ark of Thy sanctification, which Thou hast sanctified, may arise also. He is our Head; His ark is His Church: He arose first, the Church will arise also. The body would not dare to promise itself resurrection, save the Head arose first. The Body of Christ, that was born of Mary, hath been understood by some to be the ark of sanctification; so that the words mean, Arise with Thy Body, that they who believe not may handle." - Augustine (Expositions on the Psalms, 132:8)

Notice that Augustine mentions Mary, saying that Christ's body was "born of Mary". Thus, it can't be argued that Augustine wasn't thinking of Mary at the time that he wrote. He *was* thinking of her, but he didn't view her as the ark. He didn't even mention a Marian interpretation as a secondary possibility. The only alternative he mentions to seeing the church as the ark is seeing Christ's flesh as the ark.


I honestly presented a logical, coherent, scriptural and historically-unbiased arguments and my opponent did not give refutations to it.

My opponent did not give irrefutable evidence for Roman Catholic Mariology. Hence, I am not going to Hell.

Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by DanielDate 3 years ago
There is only one case where prophetic-year is used, and the original text did not say "weeks" but just "Seventy-Sevens" (490 years). This reveals to us when the little horn is established and the whore of babylon / abomination of desolation setup:

Daniel 9:25 from the going forth of the word (To establish the Catholic Kingdom/Rebuild Jerusalem) = 33AD

Exodus 22:1 , 2 Kings 12:5-6 , Luke 19:8, Apoc. 18:6 tells us to give "Double unto Double" or "Fourfold" for sheep stealing false religion (Whore of Bablyon).

33AD + (7x69x4) = 1965AD (The Year of Vatican II - September 1965)

Vatican II declared Allah is Jesus Christ (Spoke Boastfully Daniel 7:25)

Vatican II uprooted 3 nations of the 10 horns (Western EU) before its coming to being (Spain, Portugal, Italy)

EXACTLY 3.5 years later (midst of the 70th week) February 3rd 1969: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was removed and the Abomination of Desolation setup described exactly as it appears in the Maccabees:

The Catholic Church has always been the True Church until 1965. Now it exists as a remnant of the faithful during the Apocalypse. Protestants were never valid.

Luke 18:8 But when the Son of Man comes, will he find people on earth who have faith?"
Posted by DanielDate 3 years ago
The 8th King of Revelation is said to rule for 42 months (3 1/2 years, 1260 days).

So in your opinion the Vatican is the Beast, the little horn, the wounded head, the red dragon, AND the whore of babylon?

LOL. Zany Protestants.
Posted by DanielDate 3 years ago
BTW the "Prophetic Year" principal is wrong. They are not giving you exact time periods.

3 1/2 years = 42 months
1260 days = 42 months
42 months is found in Revelation as well.

The Number 42 in the Old Testament means rejection of of the true faith. check it out.
Posted by DanielDate 3 years ago
OT foreshadows NT and events after the NT, Protestants hold that God hasn't revealed anything in 2000 years; kind of silly.

The Authors you quote that reject "Apocrypha" did not have intact NT to compare with.

We now know that the NT Authors quoted the "Apocrypha" 300 times, and thought it very much inspired.


Hebrews 11 quotes an event only found in the Maccabees.

Matthew 6:19 > "Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth: where the rust, and moth consume, and where thieves break through and steal."
Ecclesiasticus 29:14 "Place thy treasure in the commandments of the most High, and it shall bring thee more profit than gold."

Matthew 7:16 "By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Ecclesiasticus 27:7 "Be the dressing of a tree sheweth the fruit thereof, so a word out of the thought of the heart of man."

Luke 1:52 "He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble."
Ecclesiasticus 10:17 "God hath overturned the thrones of proud princes, and hath set up the meek in their stead."

Luke 21:24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword; and shall be led away captives into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles."
Ecclesiasticus 28:22 "Many have fallen by the edge of the sword, but not so many as have perished by their own tongue."

Protestants ditched them because the fulfillment within is Catholic.

But this very much applies to the authors of Protestant Bibles:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Posted by radz 3 years ago
Oh, correction in my round #2

But it is already proven that Mary cannot be an antitype of Eve because she is impeccable.*

* peccable not impeccable.
Posted by radz 3 years ago
Protestants just followed the Septuagint regarding Genesis 3:15. The Greek OT Bible used by the Apostles and Jesus himself.

Mary is not the Woman in Revelation 12:

The woman of Revelation 12 is actually symbolic for the true church of faithful believers (the Bible frequently refers to the church as a woman or bride). Note that Daniel 7 clearly states that the saints of God are persecuted for 3 1/2 times, and that in Revelation 12 the woman flees persecution for the exact same time period:

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Both verses refer to the same period of history, 3 1/2 times, representing 1260 literal years of persecution of the saints during the dark ages, the woman of Revelation 12 representing the faithful but persecuted church. The opposite symbol of the apostate persecuting church, drunk with the blood of the saints, is found in Revelation 17, the woman depicted as the whore of Babylon.
Posted by DanielDate 3 years ago
In my next rebuttal I'll post how Revelation 12 was strikingly fulfilled in the modern times and actually just reads like a history book.
Posted by DanielDate 3 years ago
Note: though Protestants try to defend their mistranslation of Genesis 3:15 as "He".

Revelation 12 shows that it is indeed "She", as the Dragon comes at the heel (right after) the Woman

and 12:17 reveals that it is only Catholics (That consider her the New Eve) whom the Devil makes war against.
Posted by DanielDate 3 years ago
Huge Protestant Censorship on Genesis 3:15, they knew that the Woman referred to Mary so they changed the text to "He will crush your head", Catholic bibles read "She".
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Jakeross6 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro repeatedly dropped Con's arguments and used "miracles" to prove mariology, which actually proves nothing. In this biblical debate, it is obvious who was more knowledgeable of the texts in this situation.